LOIS-BUJOLD Digest 819 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re: The happy return by Debra Fran Baker 2) Re: Quaddies, et al. by PWrede6492-+AT+-aol.com 3) speaking German (was Re: The happy return) by Natalie 4) Castle Vorhartung by Denis Trenque 5) Re: German quote by emily dachowitz 6) Re: German quote by Jean Lamb 7) Ear plugs by Claudia 8) Re: Shakespeare (was German) quotes by Mitch1JNE-+AT+-aol.com 9) Re: Ear plugs by Elizabeth Celeste 10) Re: The happy return by Peter Newman 11) Re: The happy return by Teresa Claudino 12) Re: Shakespeare (was German) quotes by Kim Yeoh 13) Re: Ear plugs by Kim Yeoh 14) Re: The happy return by Caroline Christian 15) Re: Ear plugs by Christopher Gwyn 16) Re: LOIS-BUJOLD digest 818 by "Troy Guffey" 17) Re: Shakespeare (was German) quotes by rrhorton-+AT+-concentric.net (Rich Horton) 18) Re:Shakespeare (was German) quotes by Pat 19) Re: Ear plugs by James Jennings 20) Re: Ear plugs by David Samson 21) Re: Ear plugs by "RUSSELL HEDGES" 22) Re: Cordelia - vegeterian by Claudia 23) Re: Ear plugs by Claudia 24) Re: Cordelia - vegeterian by Sfolse-+AT+-aol.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 15:36:15 -0400 (EDT) From: Debra Fran Baker To: lois-bujold-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: The happy return Message-ID: <199708171936.PAA28016-+AT+-panix.com> > > On Sun, 17 Aug 1997, Claudia wrote: > >I am not surprised. Anybody on this list who does not speak German? Me. I have never studied the language at all. I know a very, very little bit of Yiddish, which is related, but I couldn't hold a conversation in it, or read more than a couple of words. I learned Spanish in high school and college, so I can puzzle out the Spanish ads in the subway, and I'm currently studying Hebrew and Aramaic, but I couldn't hold much of a conversation in either one of those. > -- One sharp peppercorn is better than a basketful of melons. -- Tractate Megillah 7A ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Debra Fran Baker dfbaker-+AT+-panix.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 17:02:17 -0400 (EDT) From: PWrede6492-+AT+-aol.com To: lois-bujold-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Quaddies, et al. Message-ID: <970817170216_1580509195-+AT+-emout19.mail.aol.com> >>On Saturday, 16 August 1997 PWrede6492-+AT+-aol.com wrote: >> Influencing Lois is like herding cats. Don't bother to try. > attempting to herd cats can be rewarding if success isn't measured >by its resembalence to the original goal. you may not get what you wanted, >but you may get something very good. Attempting to herd Lois frequently has no discernable effect whatever on the outcome. You will get something very good even if you sit home with a cup of tea and a plate of ginger biscuits instead of attempting to herd...and you will have had tea and biscuits *in addition* to getting a Neat Good Thing you didn't expect. >but i will go ahead and wonder how much the hypothetical next >novel will be built upon the events of "Komarr"(whatever they are)..... >or whether it will..... I'm not authorized to say anything about it yet; heck, she is still making up her mind about half of the plot elements! When I have an Official Policy Statement, I'll pass it on. Patricia C. Wrede ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 18:24:06 -0400 (EDT) From: Natalie To: lois-bujold-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: speaking German (was Re: The happy return) Message-ID: Claudia said: > >I am not surprised. Anybody on this list who does not speak German? > Me, I am sorry to say. I can struggle through a conversation in Spanish spoken slowly and I am pretty good at Latin inscriptions (5 years). 8 years of Hebrew school gets me nowhere. Doug said: >the hideous truth about That Night in Barnes & Noble. Now *that* I can't wait to hear! Hallucinogenic toads??? Hmmm. The mind boggles. Natalie ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 00:28:03 -0600 From: Denis Trenque To: lois-bujold-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Castle Vorhartung Message-ID: A question haunts me : The seat of the Council of Counts is in Castle Vorhartung in the center of Vorbarr Sultana : Who were the Vorhartung anq why the Vorhartung pass it to the Imperium? What are your theories : treason, end of the male line, gracious gift at the occasion of an imperial marriage. The first is the more plausible for me, given the bloody character of the politics on Barrayar in the centuries after the closure of the wormhole . Denis Trenque, Attach=E9 de Pr=E9fecture =E0 Bordeaux ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 20:14:39 -0700 From: emily dachowitz To: lois-bujold-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: German quote Message-ID: <33F7BE1F.473C-+AT+-cyburban.com> What is the translation of Doug Muir's German quote into English? emily d. emdorsai-+AT+-cyburban.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 20:21:39 -0700 From: Jean Lamb To: lois-bujold-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: German quote Message-ID: <199708180321.UAA09671-+AT+-magick.net> At 01:37 AM 8/18/97 +0100, you wrote: >What is the translation of Doug Muir's German quote into English? > >emily d. >emdorsai-+AT+-cyburban.com "Against stupidity the Gods themselves struggle in vain." Jean Lamb, tlambs-+AT+-magick.net, from Klamath Falls. "Any coins they put on my eyes I keep!"--Hysterium, A FUNNY THING HAPPENED ON THE WAY TO THE FORUM. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 07:16:58 +0200 From: Claudia To: lois-bujold-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Ear plugs Message-ID: <33F7DACA.2A4D-+AT+-stud.uni-sb.de> Natalie wrote: > Hallucinogenic toads??? Hmmm. The mind boggles. Same thing here... I think I finally figured just why he knows that hallucinogenic mushrooms and sex might turn out nicely... Replace mushrooms with toads... Chuckle. I had the weirdest dreams about giant toads in Paris last night, slimy things on the hotel de ville... Thank you, Doug. Heather wrote: > I wonder how those translator earplugs work in BIA. Do you have the > speaker's voice coming in one ear and a little computer-generated voice > talking in the other, about half a second behind? Isn't there a technique that allows to block out any kind of sound by adding another sound so that the combinded frequences of the two sounds add up to a non-audible sound? (Is this an understandable sentence?) This way, the speakers's voice could be 'eliminated' and the translation 'fed' directly into your ear with the help of the plugs. One could even imitate the speakers natural tone of voice... Hey, that's neat! For everyone who ever spend hours in an interpreter's booth during an international conference on gun laws (replace this with any given topic) - a dream to come true... (Of course, there would still be the problem of time lag. With most languages you will have to wait until the speaker finishes a sentence before you can start interpreting it. Turkish, e.g., is a language that adds suffixes to a verb which usually stands at the end of the sentence - if there *are* any other words. A Turkish sentence might very well contain only a single word (a long one, though...) but require a complete German or English sentence with verbs in various tenses, subjects, objects...) So you will see a person's lips moving but you won't hear anything until the interpretation begins - which might still go on even after the respective talker has stopped. But I guess one could get used to that easily. Hm. One could even do that nowadays, with wireless communication via a human interpreter (in his/her little booth)... Intriguing thought. Oh, I'm off to work. I need to think this over. Does anybody know of this frequency-blocking technique? Claudia ____________ Ich frage nicht mehr - ich weiß, wer auf den Sternen wohnt... Lasker-Schüler ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 01:33:54 -0400 (EDT) From: Mitch1JNE-+AT+-aol.com To: lois-bujold-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Shakespeare (was German) quotes Message-ID: <970818013333_1091310528-+AT+-emout07.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-08-17 14:00:59 EDT, you write: << I don't know how *likeable* Shakespeare's Richard III would be considered. Within his first few lines he declares that he is gonna be a villian because he can't get into all this peaceful happy stuff going on in his brother's kingdom. Then he kills or has killed several siblings, his young nephews, and the husband of the woman he later marries. He only becomes really sympathetic at the end of the play, where he confronts the ghosts of his victems before his last, and fatal, battle. >> Sharon Penman wrote a book (title escapes me just now, but there aren't that many) on the life (fictionalized) of Richard III ...she based her research on history before Shakespeare's time (apparantly old Elizabeth and her family had an ax to grind...and a monarchy to justify) and Richard comes out quite differently.....not exactly sympathetic (absolute power and all that), but i can see the relation to Miles more clearly in her eyes.... jeanne in california (new to the list..and i don't speak German, either) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 02:14:50 -0400 (EDT) From: Elizabeth Celeste To: lois-bujold-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Ear plugs Message-ID: On Mon, 18 Aug 1997, Claudia wrote: > Natalie wrote: > > Hallucinogenic toads??? Hmmm. The mind boggles. > > Same thing here... > I think I finally figured just why he knows that hallucinogenic > mushrooms and sex might turn out nicely... Replace mushrooms > with toads... Chuckle. It doesn't. Trust me on this one. One night in the dorms, my friend Vanessa cooked up a two liter bottle of halucinagenic mushroom tea. The results were erratic. I wasn't involveddirectly on this one, but apparently incompatable visions and attention spans killed that experiement. (I mean, they wound up too busy looking at the pretty lights to remember what they werre doing in the first place.) > With most languages you will have to wait until the speaker finishes a > sentence before you can start interpreting it. Ack. Sometimes english is a nice language. Unless you have to turn it into something like Spanish, which is spoken in a reverse order. > Hm. One could even do that nowadays, with wireless communication via a > human interpreter (in his/her little booth)... Intriguing thought. They have what is called relay call service for the deaf. The deaf person, with a keyboard phone, wants to talk to someone who only has a voice line- their lawyer of something. Anyway, the person with the keyboard phone calls a number at the phone company. Somebody there has two pohone lines, and speaks what is typed out to whom ever is on the voice only line. I don't know what the speed is- I imagnine that the speed of typing can be a serious limitation here. I speak much faster than I type, and I type 50+ WPM. > Oh, I'm off to work. I need to think this over. Does anybody know of > this frequency-blocking technique? Nope. I probably should have taken one of those math or science classes when I had a chance. Elizabeth, finding a newly minted B.A. effectively useless. jubilee-+AT+-grove.ufl.edu Elizabeth Celeste etwitche-+AT+-helios.acomp.usf.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Your behavior is so male, it's like you can't explain yourself to me. I think I'll ask Renoir to tea. For his flowers are as real as they are, all the time" Dar Williams ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 00:24:32 -0800 From: Peter Newman To: lois-bujold-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: The happy return Message-ID: <33F806C0.5005-+AT+-alaska.net> Sfolse-+AT+-aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 8/17/97 12:25:00 PM, you wrote: > > >On Sun, 17 Aug 1997, Claudia wrote: > >>I am not surprised. Anybody on this list who does not speak German? > > I can't. I can't speak either French or Italian, despite having taken two > years of the first in high school & three semesters of the second in college. Me neither. I can't speak more than a few dozen words of German (1 year in high school), French (1 year in junior high), or Spanish (1 semester in college), What is worse French speakers shudder at my French accent and Spanish speakers say I have a French accent in Spanish. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 11:48:05 +0100 (GMT+0100) From: Teresa Claudino To: lois-bujold-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: The happy return Message-ID: On Sun, 17 Aug 1997, Claudia wrote: > I am not surprised. Anybody on this list who does not speak German? Me, sorry. I took english and french at school and i can read spanish and italian (and catalan), because all latin languages are sort of the same, but no german. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Teresa Claudino email: cteresa-+AT+-lip.pt ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 07:38:27 -0400 From: Kim Yeoh To: lois-bujold-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Shakespeare (was German) quotes Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970818073827.00861a20-+AT+-golden.net> At 07:13 AM 8/18/97 +0100, you wrote: >In a message dated 97-08-17 14:00:59 EDT, you write: > ><< > I don't know how *likeable* Shakespeare's Richard III would be considered. > Within his first few lines he declares that he is gonna be a villian > because he can't get into all this peaceful happy stuff going on in his > brother's kingdom. Then he kills or has killed several siblings, his young > nephews, and the husband of the woman he later marries. He only becomes > really sympathetic at the end of the play, where he confronts the ghosts of > his victems before his last, and fatal, battle. > >> >Sharon Penman wrote a book (title escapes me just now, but there aren't that >many) on the life (fictionalized) of Richard III ...she based her research on >history before Shakespeare's time (apparantly old Elizabeth and her family >had an ax to grind...and a monarchy to justify) and Richard comes out quite >differently.....not exactly sympathetic (absolute power and all that), but i >can see the relation to Miles more clearly in her eyes.... >jeanne in california (new to the list..and i don't speak German, either) > Sharon Kay Penman's Richard III book is called _The Sunne in Splendour_ Josephine Tey's _Daughter of Time_ redeems Richard's character quite nicely too. Kim (new to the list, and doesn't speak German, nor French, just English, some Chinese dialects, Malay and Indonesian) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 07:43:16 -0400 From: Kim Yeoh To: lois-bujold-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Ear plugs Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970818074316.00866e40-+AT+-golden.net> At 06:34 AM 8/18/97 +0100, you wrote: > Isn't there a technique that allows to block out any kind of sound by >adding another sound so that the combinded frequences of the two sounds >add up to a non-audible sound? (Is this an understandable sentence?) Interference, maybe? It's the process in which two or more sound waves combine to form a new wave. Two waves of equal intensity moving in opposite directions would combine to form a standing wave (which is inaudible, I think) Kim ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 08:19:34 -0400 (EDT) From: Caroline Christian To: lois-bujold-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: The happy return Message-ID: > On Sun, 17 Aug 1997, Claudia wrote: > > > I am not surprised. Anybody on this list who does not speak German? Er, me. Two years of Latin, one year of Russian, and 8 of French. I don't think my "Teach yourself Welsh" counts ... though I'm trying, honest. I've picked up some Spanish along the way ... but don't speak it. oh well. I enjoy the German quotes. Of course I'm the type who went to consult Peerage and Almanac de Gotha when the discussion of aristocratic on Barrayar was going on ... regards to all Caroline ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 08:21:44 -0400 (EDT) From: Christopher Gwyn To: lois-bujold-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Ear plugs Message-ID: On Mon, 18 Aug 1997, Claudia wrote: > Isn't there a technique that allows to block out any kind of sound by > adding another sound so that the combinded frequences of the two sounds > add up to a non-audible sound? the technique is real. i first ran across it in a couple of science-fiction stories that i think were originaly published in the fifties or early sixties. i've heard references to it since then, both as a impossibility and as a promising technology. then a few weeks ago i sat next to someone on an airplane who works for a company producing such equipment. he commented that the plane ride would be much quieter if the equipment (total weight for an airline size unit is supposedly a few kilograms) was used. he said that currently they are trying to sell it to corporate jets, but that they were expecting to have it in commercial airliners and other noisy public places within ten years. something to look forward to. cheers, christopher Christopher Gwyn gwync-+AT+-ruby.ils.unc.edu 5602 Lockridge Rd. Durham NC 27705-8099 USA ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 07:23:17 -0500 From: "Troy Guffey" To: Subject: Re: LOIS-BUJOLD digest 818 Message-ID: <199708181237.IAA06751-+AT+-ren.globecomm.net> ---------- > Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 13:45:25 -0400 (EDT) > From: hvalli-+AT+-mindspring.com (Heather R. Valli) > Subject: vegeterian OT > > > > >By the way some one commented on Vegitarians getting all the nutriants > >that meat eaters, this is mostly true but B-12 comes only from animal > >protein. > > > >Janet Monroe > > You can get protein from bacterial sources as well. Remember cheese and > vogurt are created with the help of bacteria. Bacteria is not in the animal > kingdom. One problem with using bacteria or fungi as a food source is that consumption of too much RNA causes kidney stones or gout. Troy Guffey ICQ UIN: 1978644 AOL IM: Pax214 "Belief changes the world. Because by believing, you change." ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 00:50:07 GMT From: rrhorton-+AT+-concentric.net (Rich Horton) To: lois-bujold-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Shakespeare (was German) quotes Message-ID: <33f89a2b.2891691-+AT+-smtp.concentric.net> On Mon, 18 Aug 1997 07:12:50 +0100 (BST), jeanne wrote: >Sharon Penman wrote a book (title escapes me just now, but there aren't = that >many) on the life (fictionalized) of Richard III ...she based her = research on >history before Shakespeare's time (apparantly old Elizabeth and her = family >had an ax to grind...and a monarchy to justify) and Richard comes out = quite >differently.....not exactly sympathetic (absolute power and all that), = but i >can see the relation to Miles more clearly in her eyes.... Two outstanding "pro"-Richard III books are the wonderful detective story _The Daughter of Time_ by Josephine Tey, and the wonderful "Alternate Fantasy" _The Dragon Waiting_ by John M. Ford. Rich Horton -- we Richards have to stick together ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 07:21:32 -0900 (PDT) From: Pat To: lois-bujold-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re:Shakespeare (was German) quotes Message-ID: On Sun, 17 Aug 1997, Heather R. Valli wrote: > > > > > >ObBujold: Wouldn't this be a neato line for a play about Mad Emperor Yuri? > > Imagine a great tragic actor declaimiing it...Also, I notice that the only > >Shakespeare play that Miles is known canonically to know has a hunchbacked, > >intelligent, likable main character. Coincidence? I don't think so! If I were Gregor and knew that Miles had an interest in Shakespeare's version of Richard III, I'd be a lot more paranoid about him than Gregor is!> But then, I'm sure the next book Miles bought (or Cordelia bought for him!) was DAUGHTER OF TIME. I wonder if Miles belongs to the Betan Richard III society? (Anne=Elena?), a twisty, over-active mind, and an ability to lay plots with > the best of them. He was also well aware that actions have their > consequences ("You chose the action, you chose the consequences of that > action..." _Memory-). "Richard III" is a good warning for twisty, > ambitions, overly-bright little guys to make sure their ambitions don't > carry them in the wrong direction. > > > How's that for over analyzing? > > H. Valli > > Patricia (Pat) Mathews mathews-+AT+-unm.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 09:43:49 -0400 From: James Jennings To: lois-bujold-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Ear plugs Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970818094349.007cc3f0-+AT+-204.68.24.132> At 01:42 PM 8/18/97 +0100, Christopher Gwyn wrote: >On Mon, 18 Aug 1997, Claudia wrote: >> Isn't there a technique that allows to block out any kind of sound by >> adding another sound so that the combinded frequences of the two sounds >> add up to a non-audible sound? > the technique is real. IIRC, there is a new American luxury car that appears to use this technology. I've seen advertisments, but don't remember details. James Jennings (jenning-+AT+-usa.net) With age, the second thing that goes is the mind, but I no longer remember what the first thing was! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 07:48:16 -0700 From: David Samson To: lois-bujold-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Ear plugs Message-ID: <33F860AF.1AE7-+AT+-worldnet.att.net> Claudia wrot > Oh, I'm off to work. I need to think this over. Does anybody know of > this frequency-blocking technique? > > Claudia Yes, too rich for my blood but target shooters have bought into this in a big way. Something like a $150 but work really well. Actually the sound is canceled out... David ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 08:41:38 From: "RUSSELL HEDGES" To: lois-bujold-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Ear plugs Message-ID: <6FE1FE63DD-+AT+-elgar.com> On Mon, 18 Aug 1997, Claudia wrote: > Isn't there a technique that allows to block out any kind of sound by > adding another sound so that the combinded frequences of the two sounds > add up to a non-audible sound? The 'round the world flight of the Voyager (not the shuttle, but the two pilot twin engines special, a plane built for setting the record) included two pair of headphones that featured sound canceling. Microphones mounted on the outside of the headphones provided a signal which was inverted, and mixed with the intercom and radio signals. All external sound was thus canceled. The source of the canceling signal must be from right next to the ear, for tolerably obvious reasons. These headphones are commercially avaiable now, but I don't know the brand name, or where to get them. Try an aviation supply place, if you want a pair. Russell ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 19:17:27 +0200 From: Claudia To: lois-bujold-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Cordelia - vegeterian Message-ID: <33F883A7.276C-+AT+-stud.uni-sb.de> Janet Monroe (CAS) wrote: > By the way some one commented on Vegitarians getting all the nutriants > that meat eaters, this is mostly true but B-12 comes only from animal > protein. Can't you get B-12 from dairy products? Claudia -- Auf deiner blauen Seele setzen sich die Sterne zu Nacht. Lasker-Schüler ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 19:23:53 +0200 From: Claudia To: lois-bujold-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Ear plugs Message-ID: <33F88529.5946-+AT+-stud.uni-sb.de> David Samson wrote: > Yes, too rich for my blood but target shooters have bought into this in > a big way. Something like a $150 but work really well. Actually the > sound is canceled out... David I know these headphones - my Dad uses them. They work really well but it is not what I was thinking of. As you said, here the sound is canceled out. This other technology *adds* a second sound and thus makes the (first) sound inaudible (in fact only the combined sound is inaudible, although each sound itself would be clearly audible). It's a whole different approach. And a fascinating one. I don't think it's the headphones Russell suggested - *my* technique shuts off only a specific sound such as a persons voice, the ticking of a clock, a dog's barking, unnerving children, your bed-companion's snoring... He, one could make BIG money with that! Christopher mentioned a device for planes - I think that's the one. If it weighs a few kilos today - it most likely will fit into earplugs in Miles' time, don't you think? Claudia -- Kanat takmak kabil olsaydi saatlari! Nazim Hikmet ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 14:46:30 -0400 (EDT) From: Sfolse-+AT+-aol.com To: lois-bujold-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Cordelia - vegeterian Message-ID: <970818144532_598770470-+AT+-emout08.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 8/18/97 12:43:38 PM, you wrote: >Janet Monroe (CAS) wrote: >> By the way some one commented on Vegitarians getting all the nutriants >> that meat eaters, this is mostly true but B-12 comes only from animal >> protein. >Can't you get B-12 from dairy products? Yes. And what is in those dairy products? Protein. And from what source does it come? Animal. "Animal protein" is a rather nonspecific term -- people mostly use it to refer to meat, but IIRC it refers to all protein that comes from an animal source. Usually only a real concern to those who choose not to eat any animal product (vegans) or those who for one reason or another cannot eat dairy, but wish to be vegeterian. In those cases, they have to add supplements or brewer's yeast. (If you order a non-lactose meal on an airplane, they usually serve you the vegan meal. Nice, except that United has had the SAME MEAL for four years, now. I'm rather tired of rice pilaf with asparagus spears. Unless, as tends to happen, the booking agent is convinced that "ovo-lacto vegeterian" is the same as "non-lactose". I usually have to point out quite forcefully that it will get me food smothered in cheese, something I'm trying to avoid.) --Stephanie ------------------------------ End of LOIS-BUJOLD Digest 819 *****************************