MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 2310 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) The question of genetics by "Peter Allen" 2) Re: The question of genetics by winged_wolf-+AT+-juno.com 3) Re: The question of genetics by Amanda Carlston ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 22:21:06 -0400 From: "Peter Allen" To: Subject: The question of genetics Message-ID: <002101bfc9df$1afde4c0$0100a8c0-+AT+-Alex> Great replies from everyone :). I'm basically playing demon's advocate here to provoke discussion, sooo without further ado :) Ashandra wrote regarding genes: > I think it may be a bit of both. Many of our abilities > are predetermined by genes, like the ability to roll > one's tongue, or half a dozen other things. However, I > believe that it takes a certain mindset for us to use > whatever gifts we are given to the fullest extent. So do you think that someone who's had a Gift open would then limit their own powers in that Gift, due to inhibitions and such? How would an Adept and a hedge wizard differ, then (other than the pre-defined guidelines set by ML)? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Winged Wolf replied: > Genetics...it's considered to be a Gift, just as the other Gifts are--and > Gifts are discovered in a person, not trained up from nothing. A person > does not acquire new Gifts unless they were already there and latent, or > something extraordinary happens. We've already seen an example of extraordinary in what happened to Vanyel through getting his channels blasted open. But if Gifts are done through genetics, then how would you explain the Gift's processes actually working in someone who's genes said that they shouldn't? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Moonstalker (welcome back :) replied: > Well in MPRICE Van talks to Stef about his kids, (don't look now but i have > textevd for this!!!) and says that Jisa has mage gift in potential, > Brightstar has all his gifts, so does Featherfire and his other child has > none - even in potential. This doesn't actually prove or disprove that the > mage gift is passed on but it does make it seem more likely. > > Another incident is in WofChange when Firesong tells Elspeth and Darkwind > that he has inherited more than just his astonishing mage gift from Vanyel, > but that he's shaych too. I am pretty damn sure that being shaych is not in > your genes, merely your personal preferences, but the mage gift... hmmm, i'm > really not too sure. The only people that we've seen that have any ability to do mage Gift, and that are of the same family are those that are separated by many generations. (That I can recall. I've also not read the Silver Gryphon or the Owl series.) It could very well be that between those generations, other things occured to allow such descendents to have Gifts as well. > > If you do believe that a person's Gift is defined by genes, would that > > also include the magnitude of that Gift? > > Well, i think that genes/gift may have some connection but I don't think > that they are related in the way of magnitude. Elspeth, for example has the > gift, and she is a disendant of Van but the doesn't have, by any means, the > extent of powers that he has. but then Firesong and Brightstar do. hmmm > again, what do others think? As was stated by Ashandra, it could be something that's mentally inhibited instead of genetics. The Tayledras are a very open culture in regards to magic, while the Valdemarans aren't nearly as such. Perhaps her old roots still have a hold of her? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Shadow replied: > I think that Misty best show that in the books magic pawn or prince the frist > one in the LastHm books. When Van''s aunt comes to the keep the frist thing > she dose is cheek the childen for any magic gifts that had not show up yet. > And no of them did. She had said that it was a pitty that on of her gifts > where in any of the childen. So I think that made it is in the genes of the > person though I dont know how. But as me being the silly person I am I hope > that the Gifts would be based on how the person was not what family they come > from. This is true. She did check the children as they reached certain ages. If it is something that is by genes, then perhaps there was an ancestor of both Vanyel and Savil that was extremely powerful in the ways of Gifts etc? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Freddie replied: > is the mage gift genetic? well, on a larger forum, > are *gifts* genetic? i vote "yes." remeber in mpawn > that savil had tested her nieces & nephews. since she > was a mage, she certainly expected that her brother > and sister-in-law might produce gifted or mage-gifted > children. none of the children had anything active, > but mekeal went on to father two gifted children > (medren & the herald). makes me wonder if the if the > genes aren't recessive? Possibly. Could it also be the fact that they're some sort of "switch gene," where circumstance can cause those that aren't "on" to be pulled on by one thing or another? IIRC, there are ways through ritual and the like to open these channels as well. > we could argue further that gifts as a whole would > crop up in certain families repeatedly over time, and > that if some families were so highly *gifted*, then > there may also be families of very nice people who are > headblind (not a chance in flaming sheep of producing > a gifted child). now, if some enterprising families > noticed this and felt that they were getting the short > end of the stick because of soemthing they couldn't > change ... Then Valdemar could very well be a different place, true. However the Companions and Heralds are there to very much make sure that such doesn't occur. It does make you wonder about different societies in which magic is much more widespread than Valdemar, without the "magic police." Perhaps the Empire? > also, my personal theory is that gifted people would > be more likely to have children with other gifted > people, thus refining the gifted population (& > reinforcing my theory of recessive genes). i'm not > trying to sound snobbish, but it makes sense to me > that a gifted person would feel more comfortable with > people who understand the obligations that come with a > gift (or several) than the ordinary run-of-the-mill > person, who doesn't understand why heralds have > deathwishes, or why healers find disease so exciting, > or how bards can find a hunk of wood so attractive! *chuckle* I can understand that, though I think that that can be turned around very much to why a Herald may not understand the value of a small grey cloud on the horizon, whereas a regular farmer might. What would your thoughts be if it became the case that everyone was Gifted, just to different extents? Bright be thy day in the sun, Wintershard Councilor of Mist Demon of Crappy Weather ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 22:07:01 -0600 From: winged_wolf-+AT+-juno.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: The question of genetics Message-ID: <20000529.220734.-889683.16.Winged_Wolf-+AT+-juno.com> On Tue, 30 May 2000 04:13:29 +0100 (BST) "Peter Allen" writes: > So do you think that someone who's had a Gift open would then > limit their > own powers in that Gift, due to inhibitions and such? How would an > Adept and > a hedge wizard differ, then (other than the pre-defined guidelines > set by > ML)? It's certainly possible that a person could limit themselves, and probably quite common--however, I don't think that every person has the capability to become an Adept--there are innate limitations that vary from person to person, whether they fully accept their abilities or not. > We've already seen an example of extraordinary in what happened > to Vanyel > through getting his channels blasted open. But if Gifts are done > through > genetics, then how would you explain the Gift's processes actually > working > in someone who's genes said that they shouldn't? When has that happened? Without them having an outside influence alter them to allow it, that is? > > Another incident is in WofChange when Firesong tells Elspeth and > Darkwind > > that he has inherited more than just his astonishing mage gift > from > Vanyel, > > but that he's shaych too. I am pretty damn sure that being shaych > is not > in > > your genes, merely your personal preferences, Actually, the jury is still out on that one--far more of what we consider our personal preference is determined by our genes than you might think. There are physiological differences in those who are shaych--that's a medical fact that can't be denied. I personally think sexual preference is almost entirely genetic, but runs on a spectrum--where a person's preference falls on that spectrum (which runs from same sex to opposite sex), determines whether they'd be straight, shaych, or bi--I don't think most people are clearly any one of these things, though some may be nearly all the way to one side or the other. Events that happen in a person's life may make them more or less adventurous, but I don't think their innate preferences ever change. The most striking proof of this was in the boy whose parents decided to have him castrated and given a sex-change operation due to a botched circumcision. He was raised as a girl, treated like a girl, etc--but in spite of that, the miserable BOY grew up displaying normal male traits, and when he reached puberty, his preference was exclusively for girls--in spite of the fact that he thought he was one. Terribly cruel thing to do to a child, but the result of it has taught us a lot. > > Well, i think that genes/gift may have some connection but I don't > think > > that they are related in the way of magnitude. Elspeth, for > example has > the > > gift, and she is a disendant of Van but the doesn't have, by any > means, > the > > extent of powers that he has. but then Firesong and Brightstar > do. hmmm > > again, what do others think? I think it's definitely genetic--remember that Elspeth does not ONLY have Van's genes--she also has genes from other family members, which express themselves in such a way as to give her weaker gifts than Van had. > This is true. She did check the children as they reached certain > ages. If > it is something that is by genes, then perhaps there was an ancestor > of both > Vanyel and Savil that was extremely powerful in the ways of Gifts > etc? It would make sense--but someone had to be the first--mutations do occur. > Possibly. Could it also be the fact that they're some sort of > "switch > gene," where circumstance can cause those that aren't "on" to be > pulled on > by one thing or another? IIRC, there are ways through ritual and the > like to > open these channels as well. I'd say such persons would be considered to have potential, or "latent" gifts--gifts that are not active, but might someday become active. But some persons simply don't have them at all. > Then Valdemar could very well be a different place, true. However > the > Companions and Heralds are there to very much make sure that such > doesn't > occur. It does make you wonder about different societies in which > magic is > much more widespread than Valdemar, without the "magic police." > Perhaps the > Empire? Oh, the Empire has magic police--they just aren't as incorruptible as Heralds. > *chuckle* I can understand that, though I think that that can be > turned > around very much to why a Herald may not understand the value of a > small > grey cloud on the horizon, whereas a regular farmer might. What > would your > thoughts be if it became the case that everyone was Gifted, just to > different extents? I'd be surprised...just between you all and me, I think M.Lackey actually knows something about IRL expressions of this sort of thing...and has already decided to model it after that knoweldge. --Winged Wolf http://www.crosswinds.net/~wingedwolf/index.html "Pardon me while I burst into flames...I've had enough of the world and its' peoples' mindless games. So pardon me while I burn, and rise above the flame, pardon me, pardon me...don't ever be the same..." --Incubus ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 00:40:57 -0700 (PDT) From: Amanda Carlston To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: The question of genetics Message-ID: <20000530074057.27525.qmail-+AT+-web1601.mail.yahoo.com> What? No welcome bacl for me? Damn, I'm hurt! All right, all right. It's been three years or so. I couldn't help it! I couldn't find out how to get back on the list until now! Hmm...I still have to remember what my former title was. Or do I have to reapply? > Ashandra wrote regarding genes: > > > I think it may be a bit of both. Many of our > abilities > > are predetermined by genes, like the ability to > roll > > one's tongue, or half a dozen other things. > However, I > > believe that it takes a certain mindset for us to > use > > whatever gifts we are given to the fullest extent. > > So do you think that someone who's had a Gift > open would then limit their > own powers in that Gift, due to inhibitions and > such? How would an Adept and > a hedge wizard differ, then (other than the > pre-defined guidelines set by > ML)? It's always possible. After all, it takes a certain mental accumen (I think I spelled that right) to be able to untilize the Gifts at all. Of course, I think that in a lot of Valdemarian cases, the Gifts can't be activated without being Choosen. It's very rare that a STRONG wild talent is found, though weaker ones are known in Valdemar (hedge-wizards and such). I realize that bards and healers aren't Choosen, but they are identified in some way. Actually, I just thought of something. It goes back to that 'recessive gene' argument that someone came up with. (Sorry! Bad delete. I don't know who said it!) Gifts tend to show up in families, but usually only if both parents are Gifted. Take Vanyel, as so many people are. Obviously he had the genes for Gifts, because his father and his aunt came from the same parents, and the gene came down to Vanyel, but wasn't activated for whatever reason. Likely his mother didn't have the gene. But, because the potential was there, traumatic events could open up those abilities. In families that don't normally have Gifts, it's possible that a gene could mutate and bring in the Gifted gene, or an entirely new Gift. Keeping with Vanyel, look at his children. Brightstar and his sister were fathered on a Healer. Gifted. Jisa's mother, whose name I can't remember, was also a Healer. Gifted. The child he gave to the shieldmates was not Gifted. Neither was the mother. No Gifts there, though the child has the gene for it. Like a lot of recessive genes, it won't show up unless it comes from both sides. There is an argument against the genetics argument, however. I can't remember the textev (Don't know where my books are!), but I believe it was once mentioned that a lot of people are Gifted, but that the Gifts are never activated. I can't remember the book this was in, so maybe someone can help me. It sounds like it might have been something from Mage Storms. Ashandra __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Kick off your party with Yahoo! 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