MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 2311 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Darkwind being chosen by Kenneth Allen Hyde 2) Choosing by moonshadow-+AT+-startrekmail.com 3) Genetics and Magic by kat1-+AT+-austin.rr.com 4) Re: The question of genetics by PunkadeIik-+AT+-aol.com 5) Re: Darkwind being chosen by PunkadeIik-+AT+-aol.com 6) Re: Genetics and Magic by Brentie 7) A new side to: The question of genetics by Sara Peek 8) Re: Genetics and Magic by troll-+AT+-netcomuk.co.uk 9) Re: ML Council of Mist / Genes by "Tanya Evans" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 11:39:04 -0400 (EDT) From: Kenneth Allen Hyde To: Misty Lackey List Subject: Darkwind being chosen Message-ID: On Sun, 28 May 2000, Jeff Pugh wrote: >>>She certainly was...however, I think it was more of a political move than anything else. Just a kind of friendly public-relations type deal to demonstrate the new 'spirit of cooperation'...heh. They didn't really expect her to assume any of the duties/responsibilities of the priesthood...<<< Actually, whatever it may have been intended as, Talia was truly a Priestess of the Sun Lord. I seem to remember that this was crucial to Karal and her relationship when she was helping through some of his emotional problems: he felt that he could trust her because she was a priestess. Also, I can't see either Solaris or Vkandis proposing the creation of a false priestess. Also on Sun, 28 May 2000, Reana wrote: [Re: Darkwind] >>>Well i always thought of it as this way....Darkwind was bound to his "land" just as the heralds are bound to protect Valdemar. How can he fufill both obligations at once? If he were chosen it would prove to be a conflict of Darkwind's obligations....I guess the companions just decided he didn't need to be bound by anymore stress or things to do.<<< Another possibility that no-one seems to be thinking about is that maybe Darkwind didn't need to be Chosen. Or perhaps wasn't acceptable. Just because someone is a nice person and a defender of his own people doesn't necessarily mean that he should be Chosen. For that matter, he probably wouldn't have accepted being Chosen. Darkwind never struck me as the sort to meekly accept the sort of restrictions and life that Herald would have to accept. After all, he's something of a loner and very, VERY independent. I assume, Jadus notwithstanding, that Companions do not Choose where they are not welcome. Hmmm. There's an interesting idea. What if a Companion chose someone who refused to be a Herald. Would/Can a Companion repudiate their Chosen because of a mistake on the Companion's part? You know, when you think about it, if Chosen don't really have any options about becoming a Herald, then it casts the Companions and the deity (or deities) that sent them in a very bad light. They would be, in their own way, far more evil than Ma'ar, using the subtle emotional manipulation of the Companion bond and the coercive threat of losing the Companion to force innocent people into becoming Heralds (which the narratives make quite clear is an eventual death sentence). I wonder if Misty ever thought of that? I know that my first reaction, on reading Arrows of the Queen, was to think "if I lived in Valdemar and a large, gloriously-beautiful, horse-like being came up to me and announced that I had been Chosen to be a Herald, I would decline, and if that didn't work, I'd take an ax to it." Which explains why, in the many repetitions of the "what would you be, if you were in Misty's world" thread, I have never once mentioned being a Herald. =) Though, I suppose I wouldn't mind be the eccentric old enchanter who gives the Companions a good dressing-down. *grin* May the seas be your solace and the forests a refuge for your spirit, Cennydd Councilor of Mist Kenneth Allen Hyde | No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife Univ. of Delaware | between the shoulder blades will seriously Dept. of Linguistics | cramp his style -- Old Jhereg proverb kenny-+AT+-Udel.Edu | A mind is a terrible toy to waste! -- Me //www.ling.udel.edu/hyde/prof/ken.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 13:27:49 -0400 (EDT) From: moonshadow-+AT+-startrekmail.com To: Misty List Subject: Choosing Message-ID: <000530132749EF.00589-+AT+-weba1.iname.net> Kenneth wrote: You know, when you think about it, if Chosen don't really have any options about becoming a Herald, then it casts the Companions and the deity (or deities) that sent them in a very bad light. But they do have an option. Selenay told Talia that she didn't have to accept the position as Queen's Own, and that if she didn't want it, they would send Rolan out again, and try to find someplace else for Talia to fit in. I think this means two things: One, the Companion Bond probably isn't very strong in the beginning (also evidenced by Talia's near-drowning, after which she was told that her Bond shouldn't have been strong enough to Mindcall Rolan), so if the Chosen didn't want to be a Herald, it wouldn't be very traumatic to release them from the Bond. Two, given the fact that there *is* no character in the novels that was Chosen and then gave it up, Companions probably wouldn't Choose someone who didn't want to be a Herald deep down. WTTW, Herald Jacquelle ------------------------------- Beam to http://www.StarTrek.com The official site of the Star Trek universe ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 13:01:06 -0500 From: kat1-+AT+-austin.rr.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Genetics and Magic Message-ID: <070a41408181e50SM1-+AT+-mail.austin.rr.com> Hi... I just wanted to point out something that might be obvious, but I can't remember Van's lineage. Someone mentioned that Vanyel and his descendants were prone to having Mage Gifts; and that his entire family are pretty much the only ones who actually have the Gift in Valdemar. Does this mean that Van could be a descendant of Urtho or even Ma'ar? And if so, does that mean Urtho and Ma'ar were relations as well? Perhaps only descendants of one person or family have the Mage Gift. Maybe it's even just because of a certain gene pattern appearing only in a certain.. erm.. subset? of the human race. Apologies for any misspellings, lineage errors, or lack of common sense! :) Elhith ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 16:19:50 EDT From: PunkadeIik-+AT+-aol.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: The question of genetics Message-ID: <4c.61a1473.26657c66-+AT+-aol.com> Kerensel, shayana! In a message dated 05/29/2000 10:07:00 PM EST, minterra-+AT+-yahoo.com writes: << > I think that Misty best show that in the books magic pawn or prince the frist > one in the LastHm books. When Van''s aunt comes to the keep the frist thing > she dose is cheek the childen for any magic gifts that had not show up yet. > And no of them did. She had said that it was a pitty that on of her gifts > where in any of the childen. So I think that made it is in the genes of the > person though I dont know how. But as me being the silly person I am I hope > that the Gifts would be based on how the person was not what family they come > from. This is true. She did check the children as they reached certain ages. If it is something that is by genes, then perhaps there was an ancestor of both Vanyel and Savil that was extremely powerful in the ways of Gifts etc? >> Sorry for the super-quote, but... I think this is shown in MPromise, with the Remoerdis family. If you remember, when Lord Deveran Remoerdis was looking for a bride, of the three Mavelan candidates, only Ylena was acceptable because she had MageGift only in potential. This would imply that MageGift is, at least partially, hereditary, because if it was entirely by chance, why would Deveran be so cautious? As for the question of Gifted having NonGifted children and vice versa, I am inclined to agree with whoever said that the MageGift was like a recessive gene. In this way, children of Gifted could inherit potential or a MageGift in varying degrees of greatness. Two parents with MagePotential could have a gifted, a child with Potential, or a child with no Gift. This wouldn't be totally like a recessive gene, however, because NonGifted parents can have a Gifted child. Maybe the concept of MageGift follows the idea of a sex-linked or multiple-allele trait? As I'm thinking through this, I'm beginning to wonder if I'm over-scientifying (cool word, huh? =P) this whole process. Another side of this is that the God/dess of the particular land decides some of this. I'm beginning to think that it's a mix of the two: the genes decide that the child will have MageGift/Potential, and forces out of hereditary control determine the magnitude and other characteristics. Well, Icee-flavored sheep or sheep-flavored Icees for whoever could wade through that post.... Zhai'helleva, ¤Silve¤ Knight of the OAM • Member of the CfWD, Albertan division • Co-ruler of the Great Spork Empire • Demon of Page-flipping • (Hopeful) Lady-o of the OoUH, Champion of Skif and Eric • ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 16:33:13 EDT From: PunkadeIik-+AT+-aol.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Darkwind being chosen Message-ID: <25.654476a.26657f89-+AT+-aol.com> In a message dated 05/30/2000 11:59:26 AM EST, kenny-+AT+-UDel.Edu writes: << Hmmm. There's an interesting idea. What if a Companion chose someone who refused to be a Herald. Would/Can a Companion repudiate their Chosen because of a mistake on the Companion's part? >> Perhaps this could be half-way answered in some textev from AotQ, PB, pg. 73: Queen Seleney to Talia: "No one can force you to this. If you honestly don't feel equal to the task of being Queen's Own to a woman old enopugh to have mothered you and to a spoiled little monster, we'll find someplace here where you can be happy. I'll admit to you that this is a job *I* wouldn't want under any circumstances. You can say no, and we'll send Rolan out again. But- I think his judgement was right when he Chose you. Will you be a Herald, Talia, and Queen's Own?" This would imply that she could have turned down the offer and declined from being a Herald. Now, whether this is just a "request" that Talia couldn't have turned down if she'd wanted to from her strong bond with Rolan, etc- a political request that doesn't really mean anything, is up for debate. Also, whether this request is only given to Monarch's Own, but I doubt that. I personally think that the offer is given, but that the Companion and Herald's spirit are so similar, and the Chosen always *should be* a Herald, that it is never used to become UnChosen. But you never know- Companions are certainly not infallible. Zhai'helleva, ¤Silve¤ Knight of the OAM • Member of the CfWD, Albertan division • Co-ruler of the Great Spork Empire • Demon of Page-flipping • (Hopeful) Lady-o of the OoUH, Champion of Skif and Eric • ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 14:17:47 -0700 (PDT) From: Brentie To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Genetics and Magic Message-ID: <20000530211747.27319.qmail-+AT+-web4106.mail.yahoo.com> uuuhhhh.. idont think Vanyel would be related to urtho because hes not tayledras nor shin'a'in nor Kaled'a'in his ancestors probally moved with baron valdemar to the west __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 16:39:34 -0700 (PDT) From: Sara Peek To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: A new side to: The question of genetics Message-ID: <20000530233934.24633.qmail-+AT+-web4602.mail.yahoo.com> --- Peter Allen wrote: > Great replies from everyone :). I'm basically > playing 's advocate > here to provoke discussion, sooo without further ado > :) ok, Peter, here's some discussion. No one has mentioned the Karsites in all of this. In Storms, Karal talks about the burnings and how his parents were afraid he would go to the fires because each of them had a sibling burned. Also, he talked to Firesong (I think it was Firesong)how and why he couldn't use the power he could channel. Firesong sid that you would need channeling and mage-gift, of which Karal had very little. If someone with both tried to use all that power, they would die, he said, and if they died, they wouldn't have children with that combination, therefore making it very rare. Wind to thy wings, and genetically-improved sheep to everyone! Herald-Mage Rini __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 01:59:00 +0100 (BST) From: troll-+AT+-netcomuk.co.uk To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Genetics and Magic Message-ID: <200053115939426500-+AT+-netcomuk.co.uk> On 05/31/00 00:55:39 Brentie wrote: > >uuuhhhh.. idont think Vanyel would be related to urtho >because hes not tayledras nor shin'a'in nor Kaled'a'in >his ancestors probally moved with baron valdemar to >the west > Hmm...I don't believe Misty ever specifically said that Urtho was Kaled'a'in. The Clans all "loved and followed" him and migrated to his Tower in Tantara when he called, but I got the impression he was a Tantaran, or whatever the natives of Tantara were ;) If he'd been of the Clans, you'd think his Tower would already have been in their territory to start with...also textevd(BG, p. 55): Skan thought there might be Kaled'a'in blood in Urtho, but no-one had ever confirmed it; and (BG, p. 174): Urtho had no idea of what the Kaled'a'in were up to with their horse breeding. As for Vanyel's relation to him, as far as I can tell, Urtho didn't have any children of his own - you'd think if he did, they'd have been at least mentioned in BG. As for Baron Valdemar et al...they came from the Eastern Empire. And I'm fairly sure it implies somewhere in the Storms trilogy (no precise textevd though)that the Eastern Empire's founders were refugees from the Cataclysm and the war preceding it (either of Urtho's or Ma'ar's side, don't think it specifies). Thus, either way, Baron Valdemar came west but was descended from people who'd gone east...so, in a roundabout way, he and his followers were maybe returning to their ancestral lands? Looking at the maps, using Ka'venusho(which became the Dhorisha Plains)as a landmark, ancient Tantara looks about right to become modern Valdemar/Rethwellan/both. Still not likely that Van was descended from Urtho, since as far as we know Urtho had no issue, but could certainly have been descended from someone in Urtho's court...Amberdrake maybe? :) Genealogical and geographical sheep to all, Muranog Shadowbane Troll Battle Adept of Earth and Fire Knight of Fluff OIB Member of the (defunct?) Mistic Circle Member of the Circle of Stone and his bondmate Sable, the giant black war sheep(also OIB) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 00:19:20 -0400 From: "Tanya Evans" To: Subject: Re: ML Council of Mist / Genes Message-ID: <003001bfcab7$64c19f60$23040618-+AT+-baycty1.mi.home.com> this subject has probably (definatly, maybe) been done to death but I'm throwing my 2 cents in too, if not a bit late. Refering to the text evd below. Brightstar and Featherfire also had mothers that were Taleydras. Who probably had mage potential, if not their own fairshare of mage gifts. Let's not forget that not all a persons genes comes from one parent, its half and half, so the mothers of Van's various children had something to do with it to. And honestly it doesn't seem to me that Mage gift is a dominant trait so both parents would have to carry it for the child to even have a chance of having the potential. That is how recessive genes work if I remember my biology correct, but that was so long ago... who knows. I'm sure someone will correct me if I am wrong. => Hope that hasn't been mentioned before, I would hate to repeat someone elses statement ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sarah" To: Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2000 5:05 PM Subject: Re: ML Council of Mist / Genes > Well in MPRICE Van talks to Stef about his kids, (don't look now but i have > textevd for this!!!) and says that Jisa has mage gift in potential, > Brightstar has all his gifts, so does Featherfire and his other child has > none - even in potential. ------------------------------ End of MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 2311 **********************************