MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 2359 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re: MERCEDES-LACKEY digest 2358 by "Abigail Laughlin" 2) Re: Empathy, Mindspeech, and Truth Spell, Oh My! by Tessa Raethen 3) Re: Sheesh! by Tessa Raethen 4) Re: Empathy, Mindspeech, and Truth Spell, Oh My! by winged_wolf-+AT+-juno.com 5) Re: Sheesh! by winged_wolf-+AT+-juno.com 6) Re: Empathy, Mindspeech, and Truth Spell, Oh My! by Kenneth Allen Hyde 7) Re: Empathy, Mindspeech, and Truth Spell, Oh My! by Tessa Raethen 8) Re: Sheesh! by MDennis460-+AT+-aol.com 9) Re: Sheesh! by XShadowXBladeIX-+AT+-aol.com 10) Re: Sheesh! by ShadowDreamer 11) Mages with two heads by Sara Peek ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 05:24:25 GMT From: "Abigail Laughlin" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: MERCEDES-LACKEY digest 2358 Message-ID: Winged Wolf wrote: <> This brings to mind a book I read called The Hollow Man... the main character has the ability to hear thoughts, as did his wife... together they could, in essence, shield, but alone he can't really block out what he terms 'psychobabble', the pretty much constant hum of thoughts from the minds around him... it's a very interesting take on the subject, though not a light read by any means, as the storyline crosses quite a few icky topics and doesn't gloss anything over. Zha'hai'allav'a, Raven Darkblade and Mor the raven, Holy Hand of the Goddess of Elves, Member of the Mistic Circle, Webmaster of the Circle of Stone, Knight and Founding Member of the Order of Unsung Heroes; http://www.angelfire.com/ky/Ashke/ - The Labyrinth ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 23:20:34 -0700 (PDT) From: Tessa Raethen To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Empathy, Mindspeech, and Truth Spell, Oh My! Message-ID: <15800174.964160434796.JavaMail.imail-+AT+-digger.excite.com> Someone (bad delete finger!) wrote: The only bad thing about only one person, or a small > minority, having mindspeech or empathy, etc. is that they would be > treated with revulsion, fear, or anger; especially by people who have something to hide. Most likely they would be sought out by mobs >and killed because people are afraid of losing their privacy and >someone having the ability to know everything about them. It >seems like the people of Velgarth are more accepting than people > of Earth are; or maybe it's just because they've lived with it so long. I'm sure in Valdemar they trust the Collegium to train Heralds, but what about the people who have gifts but aren't chosen? Or people > in places other than Valdemar? Why are the people so accepting > of the "uncontrolled" gifts? (It's not wrong; it's just very > unusual/unlikely). Here are my thoughts on the subject (somewhat scattered, but bear with me). I certainly agree with you that empathy/mindspeech in RL would probably be feared and hated by the masses. Most likely it would develop an underground, occult following, and society would become polarized on the issue. In Velgarth (again agreeing with you) I'm sure it's easier because they've been raised to it - it's a talent or an ability to them, not common perhaps but certainly not unnatural. Also, they understand that those who possess Gifts (i.e. Heralds and co.) are bound by a strict code of ethics that prevents them from using their talents for detrimental purposes. Not only that, but the same code ensures that those whose Gifts are uncontrolled or used for ill will be dealt with. Therefore, there really is no reason to fear; Gifts are for the most part used for the common good, and the benefits far outweight the dangers. This also brings up a point I've been wondering about (if there's already been a thread about this, forgive me; I was absent for a time). There are certainly people who possess Gifts but aren't Chosen; I think the general consensus was that it some character flaw that prevented them from becoming a Herald. Therefore, said person doesn't go to the Collegium and doesn't get their Gift trained. Given that this person wasn't Chosen because of a character flaw, this isn't the sort of person you want traipsing gaily about with an untrained Gift. How are people like this dealt with? Not all of them are evil, of course - some probably could become fine Heralds if not for other duties or commitments that prevented them from being Chosen. Who trains them? Zhai'helleva, listsibs Julia _______________________________________________________ Say Bye to Slow Internet! http://www.home.com/xinbox/signup.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 23:36:05 -0700 (PDT) From: Tessa Raethen To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Sheesh! Message-ID: <26078885.964161365751.JavaMail.imail-+AT+-digger.excite.com> >Actually, M. Lackey has done a reasonably good job of presenting >some "gifts" though she has a Wiccan perspective on it. If you don't mind my asking, what exactly is a Wiccan perspective? I've been wondering about this for quite awhile; one of my friends is Wicca, and I know embarrassingly little about it. If this is going to take up massive list space, you can email me privately. Julia safaenya-+AT+-excite.com _______________________________________________________ Say Bye to Slow Internet! http://www.home.com/xinbox/signup.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 06:29:20 -0600 From: winged_wolf-+AT+-juno.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Empathy, Mindspeech, and Truth Spell, Oh My! Message-ID: <20000721.102840.-520833.27.Winged_Wolf-+AT+-juno.com> On Thu, 20 Jul 2000 22:43:26 +0100 (BST) kat1-+AT+-austin.rr.com writes: > There. I'm sorry for victims of my absentmindness; I always > seem to forget everyone doesn't think the way I do *grin* I'm still > curious as to how mages are treated by "normal folk." It's been a > while since I read the Owl books (first two anyhow) so I can't > remember if the townsfolk treated the non-Heralds who had Gifts > differently, or even if it came up. > > Cheesecake sheep as apologies! (yum.) > > Elhith >From what I recall of most of the series', mages were treated as if they had two heads. --Winged Wolf http://www.crosswinds.net/~wingedwolf/index.html "Pardon me while I burst into flames...I've had enough of the world and its' peoples' mindless games. So pardon me while I burn, and rise above the flame, pardon me, pardon me...don't ever be the same..." --Incubus ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 10:17:53 -0600 From: winged_wolf-+AT+-juno.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Sheesh! Message-ID: <20000721.102841.-520833.43.Winged_Wolf-+AT+-juno.com> On Fri, 21 Jul 2000 08:22:41 +0100 (BST) Tessa Raethen writes: > >Actually, M. Lackey has done a reasonably good job of presenting > >some > "gifts" though she has a Wiccan perspective on it. > > If you don't mind my asking, what exactly is a Wiccan perspective? > I've > been wondering about this for quite awhile; one of my friends is > Wicca, and > I know embarrassingly little about it. If this is going to take up > massive > list space, you can email me privately. > > Julia I meant that the methods she gives for working with Gifts and even magery to a certain degree are based on Wiccan practices (IE grounding and centering, etc). The system she uses to describe the controlled use of Gifts and magic is heavily based on the real Wiccan magickal systems--there are other ways to do such things IRL. Without going into tremendous detail on the Wiccan religion (there are about a zillion web sites out there), that's basically what I meant. If M. Lackey is not Wiccan, I would be quite surprised--she's presented enough "inside information" in her books to reveal that she's studied it intensely. (The design of Need and the Seax-Wicca necklace she was wearing in a photo I saw also suggest it. ). Thus, most of her perspective on how psychic and magickal energy working is accomplished is based on Wiccan beliefs. --Winged Wolf http://www.crosswinds.net/~wingedwolf/index.html "Pardon me while I burst into flames...I've had enough of the world and its' peoples' mindless games. So pardon me while I burn, and rise above the flame, pardon me, pardon me...don't ever be the same..." --Incubus ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 12:45:53 -0400 (EDT) From: Kenneth Allen Hyde To: Misty Lackey List Subject: Re: Empathy, Mindspeech, and Truth Spell, Oh My! Message-ID: On Fri, 21 Jul 2000, Tessa Raethen wrote: > There are certainly people who possess Gifts but aren't Chosen; I > think the general consensus was that it some character flaw that > prevented them from becoming a Herald. How rude! =) If I were a non-Herald character, I'd be very angry right now! =) Actually, I think the general consensus is that it can't be a character flaw that prevents being Chosen, since there are entirely too many really cool characters who are not Chosen. Personally, I sometimes wonder whether the Heralds aren't the ones with the personality flaws. Sort of a combination of global codependency and a lack of a strong survival instinct. =) > Therefore, said person doesn't go to the Collegium and doesn't get > their Gift trained. Given that this person wasn't Chosen because of a > character flaw, this isn't the sort of person you want traipsing gaily > about with an untrained Gift. Well, first of all, the Herald's collegium is not the only place that trains the gifted. The Bardic and Healer's collegia also exist. And I'm sure there are plenty of people who have minor gifts and don't need "training." They get by on instinct. Being gifted doesn't really require training (that's why it's a gift and not a "salary" or "reward"). Think of a musical gift or a gift for languages in the real world. Sure, it helps if you have some training or help, but the whole point is that even without help, you are better than average. If you have a small fetching gift, why would you *need* training? It's not like you are going to go into a situation where your life depends on making the most of your gift. And if it's a small gift, it's not likely that you will hurt many people before you get your gift under control on your own. >From the books, look at Van's healing gift. He never studied at the Healer's Collegium (as far as we know), but he does have a small healer's gift and he can use it without giving people AIDS (or the Valdemar equivalent--Randale's Disease, maybe?) or three eyes, by accident. Of all the gifts that have the potential to cause horrible damage if not used properly, healing is probably the best example; yet, Van seems to do all right. Another real-life example: great physical strength. A person who is extraordinarily strong and athletic can cause great damage, of course. But most of them don't, except when they want to. Part of their "gift" is a certain level of instinctive control, which they can augment with even greater learned control. But they don't *have* to take classes to learn to control their strength. They only do that if they are planning a career that requires them to push beyond their natural skills. If someone has an ability, but cannot use it or control it at all unless they recieve intensive training, it isn't a gift *or* a talent. It's just an ability. So, anyway, perhaps the people who are Chosen are partially those people who have very strong abilities but don't necessarily have the instinctive and learned control of a true "Gift." Anyway, it's a thought. YMMV. May the seas be your solace and the forests a refuge for your spirit, Cennydd Councilor of Mist Kenneth Allen Hyde | No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife Univ. of Delaware | between the shoulder blades will seriously Dept. of Linguistics | cramp his style -- Old Jhereg proverb kenny-+AT+-Udel.Edu | A mind is a terrible toy to waste! -- Me //www.ling.udel.edu/hyde/prof/ken.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 11:37:49 -0700 (PDT) From: Tessa Raethen To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Empathy, Mindspeech, and Truth Spell, Oh My! Message-ID: <29911064.964204669188.JavaMail.imail-+AT+-digger.excite.com> On Fri, 21 Jul 2000 18:27:05 +0100 (BST), mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk wrote: > On Fri, 21 Jul 2000, Tessa Raethen wrote: > > > There are certainly people who possess Gifts but aren't Chosen; I > > think the general consensus was that it some character flaw that > > prevented them from becoming a Herald. > > How rude! =) If I were a non-Herald character, I'd be very angry > rightnow! =) My goodness, me and my ambiguous word choices causing problems again. When I said "character" I didn't mean character just in the sense of personality. I meant "character" as in characters in the book. Therefore, when I said "character flaw" I was referring to something written into their character that might prevent them from being Chosen, i.e. other responsibilities/commitments elsewhere, etc. Clearer? I didn't mean to imply that everyone who wasn't Chosen had a glaring personality defect (which is certainly not the case). Julia _______________________________________________________ Say Bye to Slow Internet! http://www.home.com/xinbox/signup.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 16:35:01 EDT From: MDennis460-+AT+-aol.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Sheesh! Message-ID: wiccan.... perhaps. I know that Marion zimmer Bradley was a wiccan, saw her picture in a book sometime ago that showed mzb in a wiccan ceremony. Misty lackey was one of those writers that MZB helped get a start in publishing. I think she bought some of misty's first stories for publication in MZB's fantasy magazine. I wonder if that is where she got some of her information ... that is mentioned in some of these emails messages. I know little or nothing on the topic later, but did see that picture and it stayed in my mind, as MZB was also a favorite writer for a time. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 19:49:25 EDT From: XShadowXBladeIX-+AT+-aol.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Sheesh! Message-ID: <54.6ee4bd8.26aa3b85-+AT+-aol.com> In a message dated 7/21/00 2:15:19 AM Central Daylight Time, Safaenya-+AT+-excite.com writes: << >Actually, M. Lackey has done a reasonably good job of presenting >some "gifts" though she has a Wiccan perspective on it. If you don't mind my asking, what exactly is a Wiccan perspective? I've been wondering about this for quite awhile; one of my friends is Wicca, and I know embarrassingly little about it. If this is going to take up massive list space, you can email me privately. Julia safaenya-+AT+-excite.com If any of you want to lurn a little more about Wicca you can do on the wed there's lots of stuff there. But a book called Book Of Shadows Bye Phyllis Curott is a wonderful book.or you could just ask me as iam a Wiccan in trianing. i'll do my best to get it right. Shadow ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 18:39:57 -0600 From: ShadowDreamer To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Sheesh! Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20000721183957.0074e010-+AT+-mail> Winged Wolf writes: >I meant that the methods she gives for working with Gifts and even magery >to a certain degree are based on Wiccan practices (IE grounding and >centering, etc). The system she uses to describe the controlled use of >Gifts and magic is heavily based on the real Wiccan magickal >systems--there are other ways to do such things IRL. Without going into >tremendous detail on the Wiccan religion (there are about a zillion web >sites out there), that's basically what I meant. If M. Lackey is not >Wiccan, I would be quite surprised--she's presented enough "inside >information" in her books to reveal that she's studied it intensely. >(The design of Need and the Seax-Wicca necklace she was wearing in a >photo I saw also suggest it. ). Thus, most of her perspective on how >psychic and magickal energy working is accomplished is based on Wiccan >beliefs. You want perspective on Wiccan ways in her books? Have ya read the Di Tregarde books yet? if not, you should. now. =) Yes, I agree with you on her other books, and the DT books tip the scale farther. And for those who want more info, as I recommended privately to Julia, try www.witchvox.com. If you like that one and want more, or if you don't get it and want more, or ya just want more, let me know. =) Julia writes: >My goodness, me and my ambiguous word choices causing problems again. When >I said "character" I didn't mean character just in the sense of personality. >I meant "character" as in characters in the book. Therefore, when I said >"character flaw" I was referring to something written into their character >that might prevent them from being Chosen, i.e. other >responsibilities/commitments elsewhere, etc. Clearer? I didn't mean to >imply that everyone who wasn't Chosen had a glaring personality defect >(which is certainly not the case). I just picked this as a good place to jump into the discussion. Personally, I think it's more of people who aren't needed as Heralds, or people who are needed more elsewhere. Such as Healers, who are not normally Chosen, are needed more in their Healing areas. As Herald, they would have other duties. One of your Wiccan friends, Kris Known to one and all as ShadowDreamer, formerly MorningStar Mindmate to the tawny eagle Ryia! Original Member of the Order of Unsung Heros (http://www.angelfire.com/ok2/oouh/) shadskitty-+AT+-home.com morningstar-+AT+-poetic.com Web page is moving...watch this spot for updates! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 19:14:38 -0700 (PDT) From: Sara Peek To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Mages with two heads Message-ID: <20000722021438.2667.qmail-+AT+-web4605.mail.yahoo.com> Somebody wrote that mages are always treated as if they had two heads. I think that only refers to Later Vanyel... In BtS, the border Valdemarans hated mages, but that was Ancars mages. The Hawkbrothers were always treated with respect, not fear, when (and if)they came out of their little hidey-holes. ~grins~ When young Vanyel protected the villagers from Krebain, everyone was grateful but not fearful. Has there ever beeen a manifestation of that goddess the Heralds always swear to, - Astera? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! 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