MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 2381 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re: Fanfic and copywrite issues. by "Rhianna Lynn" 2) Re: Fanfic and copywrite issues. by Kenneth Allen Hyde 3) RE: MERCEDES-LACKEY digest 2380 by Cariad 4) Apoem of Valdemar th great by Brentie 5) Re: Flaming by J80Kath-+AT+-aol.com 6) Re: MERCEDES-LACKEY digest 2380 by Kimafr-+AT+-aol.com 7) Re: Flaming by "Dan Halford" 8) I'm sorry... by Nicole Fletcher 9) Copyright / ice-shaped sheep by "Peter Allen" 10) thanks, Tayledras, magic by Abby Normal 11) Re: Copyright / ice-shaped sheep by "Kristjan Wager" 12) Re: I'm sorry... by Katarina Darkchyld 13) Re: thanks, Tayledras, magic by "Eleonora Scoseria" 14) Re: Copyright / ice-shaped sheep by winged_wolf-+AT+-juno.com 15) Re: thanks, Tayledras, magic by "David H. Tiffany" 16) Re: thanks, Tayledras, magic by Eeyore9051-+AT+-aol.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 16:03:29 -0400 From: "Rhianna Lynn" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Fanfic and copywrite issues. Message-ID: <200008132004.QAA09835-+AT+-core.greenapple.com> TAZ wrote: I feel that all of these rebukes > could, and really should, have been made in private. Someone made a > mistake - albeit a BIG one - it happens, we're all human. However it > was, as far as I could tell, their first infraction. I think a "Closed > door reaming" would have been more appropriate than dragging the rest > of the list into it in this circumstance. I don't particularly think of this conversation as a personal attack on whoever wrote the poem to begin with. (Please forgive..I delete messages after I read them and honestly don't remember the author's name..) Sure the first comment on it was directed at the author, but from there the conversation went to copyright laws and whatnot. Except from one or two other little comments, I haven't read anything nasty aimed at the author of the poem. I've learned a lot from this discussion that I did not previously know and am personally glad that it took place. I'm reasonably certain that the offense won't be committed again. *grins* Thanks to all of you who took the time to look up the laws and study them and share what you learned. That had to be a lot of work to not only look them up and read them but to understand and digest them! Winged Wolf, thank you for responding to my post and letting me know that the fan-fic issues depends on the author. Cennydd, thank you for being the good Counselor. And a REALLY big Thank You to everyone else for remaining civil and not flaming people left and right!! Helpful Sheep Trained in Law to everyone! Rhianna ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 19:02:05 -0400 (EDT) From: Kenneth Allen Hyde To: Misty Lackey List Subject: Re: Fanfic and copywrite issues. Message-ID: On Sun, 13 Aug 2000 winged_wolf-+AT+-juno.com wrote: > No, it is not copyright infringement to write down ANY story on a piece > of paper. It IS illegal to then distribute it to others to read. Actually, in the USA, yes, it is illegal to write down a story, if it is a derivative work. USC Title 17, Section 106, Subparagraph 2 grants the owner of the copyright the exclusive right to prepare any derivative works based on the original work. Once an original work is protected by the copyright laws, no-one but the author may legally create a derivative work based on the original piece. While it is true that some authors have chosen not to prosecute copyright infringments in the form of fan-fic, that does not mean that the fan-fic is legal. Unless an author explicitly places the original work in the public domain (and thus gives up all copyrights to the work), fan-fic is illegal and the author could, conceivably, sue any fan-fic author for infringment. > If you want to write fan-fic for your own enjoyment, your creation of > a single copy on paper or on your hard drive is not considered > publishing or distribution of the work--it IS legal. Absolutely false. Sorry. > The author does own the copyright to their own work, and they therefore > have the right to allow others to use it--if they wish to do so. This, of course, is true. But it would be better to say that the author has the right to refrain from prosecution against copyright violators. Since copyright violations are only prosecuted if the copyright owner choose to bring suit, all they have to do is not sue. =) BTW, the reason that Misty defends her copyrights so vehemently is probably because her lawyers have pointed out that allowing fan-fic to proliferate uncontested would weaken her position in a copyright suit. One of the things that is true is that it is harder to successfully defend one's copyrights if one has a history of not defending them. Judges have, in the past, tended to find that an author's tacit or explicit approval of fan-fic gives a sort of implied licence to the creation of derivative works, and have been known to find against the copyright owner in such cases. So, if an author really wants to protect their rights, they can't really allow fan-fic. Some author's allow it, but, in the US, it's probably not wise unless they are prepared to give up some of their exclusive rights. May the seas be your solace and the forests a refuge for your spirit, Cennydd Councilor of Mist Kenneth Allen Hyde | No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife Univ. of Delaware | between the shoulder blades will seriously Dept. of Linguistics | cramp his style -- Old Jhereg proverb kenny-+AT+-Udel.Edu | A mind is a terrible toy to waste! -- Me //www.ling.udel.edu/hyde/prof/ken.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 19:32:46 -0400 (EDT) From: Cariad To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: RE: MERCEDES-LACKEY digest 2380 Message-ID: <382906290.966209566566.JavaMail.root-+AT+-web595-ec.mail.com> Heyla all! On the Bardic Voices: This is definately my fave series of Misty's. =] I know someone was talking about whether or not Velgarth and the world this is set on are the same -- I strongly doubt it. Things are way too different between the two. For example, the state religion is an often oppressive force in the Bardic Voices stories, whereas on Velgarth, religion is freer and not mandated. ObMisty -- do any of you remember what the world of the Bardic Voices is called?? On Copyright: I find this kind of discussion very interesting. I am confused about something, however. I am currently working on a persona for Queens Own, and it seems like the requirements include creating fanfic! On the Queens Own website, it talks about obtaining a release to write it -- I think. Here is where I am confused. Am I doing something illegal in working on my persona? Because if I am, I'll stop. I'd hate to get in trouble with the law, besides, I would hate to cause Misty grief. =] wind to thy wings! ~Cariad ----------------------------------------------- FREE! The World's Best Email Address -+AT+-email.com Reserve your name now at http://www.email.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 17:50:23 -0700 (PDT) From: Brentie To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Apoem of Valdemar th great Message-ID: <20000814005023.12231.qmail-+AT+-web4103.mail.yahoo.com> i just read the poem that started all this and i didnt think it was about the heralds of valdemar seriers at all i thought it was the the danish king Valdemar I "A Herald brave fights and dies, Flowers bloom where his blood has fell, And in the Grove, Companions all, Gather 'round to toll the Bell." He sent one of his heralds to herald something or another and was abushed by the enemy and his horse was his friend of a very long time hence the title "companion" and of corse since the horse fought back they killed it too then they rang the castel bell to let people know hes dead "So ends the life of a Herald bold, And that of his Companion true. Now learn the secret of Valdemar: They shall live anew." "Now in the darkness of the night, Or the false dawn of the morn, A sword of Light pierces the Dark, A Companion-foal is born." and it seems he was a very good horse beacause his offspring then became a herald's horse a very astute observation if i do say so my self Wal·de·mar I (wôld-mär, väl-) or Val·de·mar I (väl-). Known as “Waldemar the Great.” 1131-1182. Danish king (1157-1182) who extended his realm and gained recognition for the hereditary rule of his family. Hereditary rule "They shall live anew" pretty starange huh? Quite alittle quinkeydink There was no copyright infringement at all so that should end are little copyright discusion right? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail – Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 20:56:02 EDT From: J80Kath-+AT+-aol.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Flaming Message-ID: <12.ea1cff.26c89da2-+AT+-aol.com> I have to fully agree on this note. That comment about the poem was totally uncalled for and probably hurtful. It had nothing to do with the legal issue at hand and is in my mind a flame. I would hope that "whoever" wrote that nasty little comment has atleast e-mailed the author and appologized for it. By the way the only reason that I brought this topic up again was that I thought it was an important observation that unnoticed. OBMisty: Does anyone know when Owlknight is due out in paperback? thank you, Jennie In a message dated 8/12/00 12:12:54 AM Pacific Daylight Time, Safaenya-+AT+-excite.com writes: << Dan Halford writes: >>Not to mention it was drivel.>> I don't really want to get into the fanfic copyright discussion; obviously there are several people who are a lot more knowledgeable about this than I am. But I wanted to point out something about this comment - namely, that think it's a fairly inappropriate one to make. Aside from the fact that it's openly insulting to someone who was taking a risk by posting her own work for our enjoyment (granted, it was illegal, but let's not address that here), I believe this kind of comment can be construed as a flame against a member of the list. Isn't it explicitly stated in the newbie fest that flaming is not to be tolerated? I don't know, I may be wrong - but regardless of the rules, it was still a rude statement. This is not constructive criticism, it is a direct insult. It bothered me, because I like to think that the members of this list are respectful and courteous to one another, even if they disagree about certain issues. Julia >> ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 20:57:53 EDT From: Kimafr-+AT+-aol.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: MERCEDES-LACKEY digest 2380 Message-ID: <42.956762a.26c89e11-+AT+-aol.com> isn't the world of Bardic Voices Alanda? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 02:37:11 +0100 From: "Dan Halford" To: Subject: Re: Flaming Message-ID: <001001c00590$412b4c40$9b00a8c0-+AT+-dan> > I have to fully agree on this note. That comment about the poem was > totally uncalled for and probably hurtful. It had nothing to do with the > legal issue at hand and is in my mind a flame. I would hope that "whoever" > wrote that nasty little comment has atleast e-mailed the author and > appologized for it. By the way the only reason that I brought this topic up > again was that I thought it was an important observation that unnoticed. No, I haven't. And I won't. If you post a work to a public mailing list, be prepared for the consequences. Don't just expect neutral or positive comments. Some people won't like it, and you should expect to be told so. Sorry, that's life. We aren't all here to pat each other on the back in an orgy of self-congratulation. I didn't attack the author in the slightest. I made my views on the work known, that's all. If you class that as flaming, you have either never seen some of the flames I've seen, or live in a remarkably protected little world where everyone is nice to each other all the time. Either way, you are entitled to your opinions, as I am to mine. If you wish to take this any further, then I suggest you either take it up with me personally, or speak to Mel (the list-mistress). Dan. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 21:15:19 -0600 From: Nicole Fletcher To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: I'm sorry... Message-ID: <39976447.45E10FC7-+AT+-telusplanet.net> *She looks nervous and chews her lip* "I-I realy didn't meen any-thing by posting that poem, I-I didn't know it was illegal..." *She stares at the floor* "I guess I should leave the list... Well, good-bye maybe..." ~Nicole the brain-dead poet Chosen of D'faindes Live by the sword and you'll get shot by those who don't. -Me ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 01:13:39 -0400 From: "Peter Allen" To: Subject: Copyright / ice-shaped sheep Message-ID: <001901c005c5$1d13b1a0$f9668ad1-+AT+-Alex> Winged Wolf wrote: > I personally disapprove of M.Lackey's hard-line attitude toward fan-fic, > particularly when it's been proven by other authors that it does not > devalue the author's own work, or lose them money. This is a personal > decision on the part of the author--don't ever think it is anything else. > The author does own the copyright to their own work, and they therefore > have the right to allow others to use it--if they wish to do so. However, this is not true in all cases. There is such an occurrence where a fan-fic author sued the original author for infringement upon the fan-fic's work. This, above all, is the reason as to why Misty doesn't wish to have anyone writing unauthorized derivatives of her work. I would very much like, at times, to write things here or there about Misty's characters and what I think "really" happened, or perhaps go off on a tangent, as most fan-fic is wont to do. Yet if I publish this information, and it becomes generally accepted, then that limits what the author can write about that world, as it has already been done by someone else. As a writer myself, I would be glad that people are interested enough in the worlds that I created by wishing to delve into them on their own - yet would also hold tight reins on fan-fic for the simple fact of the one described above. I think that the same holds true for Misty as well. *looks around* Anyone have any sheep-shaped ice cushions? Water balloons'll work too :). Bright be thy day, Wintershard Councilor of Mist and seeker of cheap air conditioning ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 02:11:44 -0700 (PDT) From: Abby Normal To: MLML Subject: thanks, Tayledras, magic Message-ID: <20000814091144.6649.qmail-+AT+-web4703.mail.yahoo.com> Bright the day, Thank you Cennydd, and others who responded to my post, for making the copyright laws clear to me. It was much appreciated. I was rereading LHM the other night, and came upon some discrepancies concerning the Tayledras with the later part of the series, starting with the Winds trilogy. Several are highlighted in this passage: "It had been a while since she was last at k'Treva, but the years hadn't made much change in either of her friends. It was impossible to tell that Starwind was Savil's age, and Moondance only a little older than Vanyel. Adepts were long-lived, normally; node-magic tended to preserve them. Tayledras adepts were even more long lived, for they lived amid a constant flow of node-derived magic, magic that touched even the non-Gifted, whether born or raised among them, bleaching their hair and eyes to silver and blue in a matter of two years. That bleaching effect was even more pronounced and took less time for mages, a sign that working with node-magic changed them in deeper ways. The drawback was when they did near the end of their allotted time-span - and not even an Adept could know when that would be - they would fail and die within a matter of weeks, as the magic burned them up from within." (Magic's_Price, 178-179 pb) First there is the problem of the clearly-defined aging process, as I recall several elders in k'Sheyna and k'Vala vales looking their age. Second, and more important, is the matter of of bleaching. It is stated that living in a Vale, with a heartstone and the constant flow of magic, causes complete bleaching in two years or less. This is not so in Winds; in fact, Firesong once tells Darkwind, "My hair was white by the time I was ten," (Winds_of_Change, 357 pb) as a way of impressing upon Darkwind his training and talent. (For that matter, wouldn't people in the Palace be affected by the Heartstone within?) In addition to this, there is a problem with the theory of magic. Vanyel once reflects on his "ability to use the lines and currents of power, and the nodes where they met, as the ancients had done and the Tayledras could still do, though none of the other Herald-Mages except Savil could." However, in the Storms trilogy an explanation of magic and mage-levels is given as follows: "Mage-power, as we know and understand it, is an energy that is given off by living things . . . It tends to want to gather together, and tends to follow well-worn paths . . . When the threadlike paths, or tiny streams, merge together enough to make them of a different magnitude of strengthy, we call them 'ley-lines' . . . The place where two or more ley-lines meet forms something called a 'node' . . . Mages can use the power that they themselves produce. Mages can use the power given off by things in their immediate vicinity. Mages can also store power for later use in reservoirs . . . Apprentices can only use their own power or what is immediately available around them below the level of a ley-line. Journeymen can use ley-lines. Masters can use those reservoirs . . . Adepts can tap into and use the raw power of the nodes." (Storm_Breaking, 276-278 pb) This is the most thorough and almost the only comprehensive explanation of magic in the series. It is consistent with the explanation Moondance gives Vanyel in Magic's_Pawn. No other theories are ever given. However, if this is so, it would place all Herald-Mages other than Vanyel and Savil at Journeyman level; they could be Masters, but no mention is ever made of a magic reservoir for Heraldic use. This is inconsistent with the magical feats they were able to perform. (There is also a point in Winds_of_Change when Darkwind states that Journeymen are unable to use ley-lines, but that is less important.) It is most likely that Mercedes Lackey did not think the theory all the way through while writing LHM; still, it has disturbed me for some time. There are other inconsistancies between LHM and 'present day' Tayledras, regarding appearance and living conditions, but these may simply be traditions that changed over the course of the centuries. I understand that these discrepancies are probably just that, as I have been unable to think of something to account for them. Like Darkwind and Elspeth's ages (if anyone remembers my equally long and detailed post somewhat over a year ago regarding that), I suppose that these are matters which simply must not be examined too closely. If, however, anyone sees something that I do not, I would be quite happy to be proven wrong. For anyone who's interested, I went through four books to find that explanation of magic, re-reading much of them in the process, as I could not remember for the life of me where it was. I don't suppose you're interested. After all, I just made you suffer equally by dragging you through this. Ambermoon Singer of Fire Royal Defender of the Brat Continuity Director (this title was given me in a friendly mocking sort of way by someone amused by my antics of doing things just like this) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail – Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 11:38:43 +0200 From: "Kristjan Wager" To: Subject: Re: Copyright / ice-shaped sheep Message-ID: <003501c005d3$7832b000$5d5336d4-+AT+-kris> Hi listsibs It has been a long while since I've last posted here, but I thought I'd say something anyway. Dan wrote: >No, I haven't. And I won't. If you post a work to a public mailing list, be >prepared for the consequences. Don't just expect neutral or positive >comments. Some people won't like it, and you should expect to be told so. >Sorry, that's life. We aren't all here to pat each other on the back in an >orgy of self-congratulation. No, but there is some rules about politeness on the list, as well as rules about one-liners - you broke both of them. You were incredible rude. >I didn't attack the author in the slightest. I made my views on the work >known, that's all. If you class that as flaming, you have either never seen >some of the flames I've seen, or live in a remarkably protected little world >where everyone is nice to each other all the time. Either way, you are >entitled to your opinions, as I am to mine. Again, you're entitled to your oppinion, but you could express them in a polite way. This is a remarkable flame-free list, and I think most of us prefer it that way. I have seen much worse flames, but then I've seen entire discussion forums get closed down because of those flames - do you want that to happen here? On another note entirely - I'm keeping a list of the homepages of the listsibs on the MLML. if you want your homepage to be included please mail me the URL and name of the hmepage - please mail it directly to me, not to the MLML. The list can be found at http://www.angelfire.com/wa/Absalon/ Obmisty: I've finally gotten around to reading The Black Swan, and enjoyed it very much, even if it seemed more minded towarts YA. Danish-flavored sheep or sheep-flavored danish to everyone. Absalon Champion of Lissa (OoUH) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 05:26:19 -0700 (PDT) From: Katarina Darkchyld To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: I'm sorry... Message-ID: <20000814122619.6337.qmail-+AT+-web2305.mail.yahoo.com> --- Nicole Fletcher wrote: > *She looks nervous and chews her lip* > > "I-I realy didn't meen any-thing by posting that > poem, I-I didn't know > it was illegal..." Ok. I am new to the list..and all I have read were this big mess over a poem. I totally agree it shouldnt have been posted..but what angers me is the fact that the person who posted it KNEW it was wrong to post it. she asked us to "not kill her, listsibs".... I have two favorite authors. Piers Anthony, and Mercedes Lackey. As far as I know, Piers doesnt care about fanfic...and we all know Misty does. therefore, wouldnt we respect the wishes of an author we Truely respect...and not Intentionally go against it, if we Know we arent supposed to?? Please...I do think we have dealt with this thrououghly...can we move on to other subjects? Kat ===== Yesterday is History, Tomorrow is the Future, Today is a Gift, and that is why we call it the "Present" Fiat ignem (~*Let there be Fire*~) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail – Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 09:30:19 -0300 From: "Eleonora Scoseria" To: Subject: Re: thanks, Tayledras, magic Message-ID: <006101c005eb$6a13a660$0300a8c0-+AT+-Eleonora> Ambermoon wrote: > For anyone who's interested, I went through four > books to find that explanation of magic, re-reading > much of them in the process, as I could not remember > for the life of me where it was. I don't suppose > you're interested. After all, I just made you suffer > equally by dragging you through this. *laugh* I AM interested! I have had the same kinds of problems with Misty's discrepancies in the past, and I admit the whole thing bugs me. I just ~hate~ it when an author is not consistent, and unfortunately Misty is not among the most consistent out there (there are of course several examples, like Van's Bardic and Healing gifts =P And no, I am not trying to start the debate again ;) ). I don't have an explanation, other than what you suggested: Misty not having the whole thing thought through when she wrote LHM. Wintershard, Councilor of Mist and seeker of cheap air conditioning wrote: > *looks around* Anyone have any sheep-shaped ice cushions? Water >balloons'll work too :). Sure! Want cold? Here are some penguin and sheep-shaped ice cushions. Found them next to my bed this morning, where the normal cushions used to be. Uruguay is coooooooold these days! *shivers* Anyone got some sheep shaped covers? =) Anyway, enough rambling..back to work it is... WTTW, Ele High Priestess of Karma Councilor of Mist ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 06:36:59 -0600 From: winged_wolf-+AT+-juno.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Copyright / ice-shaped sheep Message-ID: <20000814.064104.-239237.7.Winged_Wolf-+AT+-juno.com> On Mon, 14 Aug 2000 09:03:46 +0100 (BST) "Peter Allen" writes: > However, this is not true in all cases. There is such an > occurrence where > a fan-fic author sued the original author for infringement upon the > fan-fic's work. This, above all, is the reason as to why Misty > doesn't wish > to have anyone writing unauthorized derivatives of her work. That is an absurdity which I seriously doubt Misty's restriction of fan-fic would actually prevent. > I would very much like, at times, to write things here or there > about > Misty's characters and what I think "really" happened, or perhaps go > off on > a tangent, as most fan-fic is wont to do. Yet if I publish this > information, > and it becomes generally accepted, then that limits what the author > can > write about that world, as it has already been done by someone else. This has never stopped any of the other authors who allow fan-fic. They simply write according to their vision, and ignore the fan-fic. In the vast majority of cases, fan-fic is considered to occur in an "alternative universe" where events there don't impinge on the author's own work. I mentioned Jacqueline Lichtenberg before--she handles most fan-fic this way, except in some cases where someone produces something so original and well-written in her universe that she has expressed a desire to see it actually published. It's one of the best attitudes I've ever seen toward the whole thing. She has never felt that her freedom to write stories she wishes to write has been compromised by someone who wrote fan-fic, even if they paralleled what she wished to do. > As a writer myself, I would be glad that people are interested > enough in > the worlds that I created by wishing to delve into them on their own > - yet > would also hold tight reins on fan-fic for the simple fact of the > one > described above. I think that the same holds true for Misty as well. If people love a universe so well, I would personally let them play--perhaps a bright new young author will appear from it, and create a work that I would like to allow to be published in my universe. That doesn't detract from my world--it adds to it. There is more than one way to look at this--as seen by the differing opinions of various authors. Why pick another author and allow them to write in my world, but not an amateur who just might turn out to be better? --Winged Wolf "Pardon me while I burst into flames, I've had enough of the world and its peoples' mindless games So pardon me while I burn, and rise above the flame. Pardon me, pardon me....don't ever be the same...." --Incubus ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 07:36:11 -0700 (PDT) From: "David H. Tiffany" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: thanks, Tayledras, magic Message-ID: On Mon, 14 Aug 2000, Abby Normal wrote: > I was rereading LHM the other night, and came > upon some discrepancies concerning the Tayledras with > the later part of the series, starting with the Winds > trilogy. Several are highlighted in this passage: [but I snipped it down to} > First there is the problem of the clearly-defined > aging process, as I recall several elders in k'Sheyna > and k'Vala vales looking their age. Second, and more > important, is the matter of of bleaching. It is stated > that living in a Vale, with a heartstone and the > constant flow of magic, causes complete bleaching in > two years or less. This is not so in Winds; in fact, > Firesong once tells Darkwind, "My hair was white by > the time I was ten," (Winds_of_Change, 357 pb) as a > way of impressing upon Darkwind his training and > talent. Perhaps the Tayledras have changed their approach, in Vanyel's time they were being more flamboyant in their use of magic, perhaps as a reaction to feeling that the clans that rejected magic had somehow rejected them along with it (ain't pop psych fun? and anyone can play!), and by the time of the Winds trilogy they have developed a more "mature" approach which doesn't involve so much spillover as to bleach out the children. As for the aging, perhaps one of the uses of the Heartstone they have ceased as frivolous is a cosmetic one, smoothing over the effects of years, which Sayvil had misinterpreted as a side effect. [and after another long section of quoting mused] > given. However, if this is so, it would place all > Herald-Mages other than Vanyel and Savil at Journeyman > level; they could be Masters, but no mention is ever > made of a magic reservoir for Heraldic use. This is > inconsistent with the magical feats they were able to > perform. Perhaps their Companions fed them power, drawing it from nodes (or wherever) but didn't ever tell their Chosen what they were doing because of their usual overly secretive habits. So maybe Vanyel was the greatest Herald Mage only because 'Fandes was the strongest Companion? David H Tiffany, oft dogs typy ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 11:09:05 EDT From: Eeyore9051-+AT+-aol.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: thanks, Tayledras, magic Message-ID: <7d.90441c6.26c96591-+AT+-aol.com> Misty mentions the aging think with Kethy and Tarma too. Somewhere in their stories Kethy mentions how dealing with nodes makes her age slower. Which may explain why we've heard about Tarma and Warral's deaths but not Kethy's...she may have out lived them both though that may be kinda lonly. Amanda ------------------------------ End of MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 2381 **********************************