MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 2382

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Re: thanks, Tayledras, magic
	by "Dan Halford" <dan-+AT+-myshed.net>
  2) fan fic
	by "Hill, Susan" <susan.hill-+AT+-weyerhaeuser.com>
  3) Re: fan fic
	by Cat Ray <sgray1-+AT+-uswest.net>
  4) Re: fan fic
	by "Victoria H." <wukolia-+AT+-hotmail.com>
  5) Re: fan fic
	by Brentie <ssjgohanjr-+AT+-yahoo.com>
  6) Re: fan fic
	by Brentie <ssjgohanjr-+AT+-yahoo.com>
  7) Re: fan fic
	by Cat Ray <sgray1-+AT+-uswest.net>
  8) Re: fan fic
	by Pyrephox18-+AT+-aol.com
  9) Re: fan fic
	by MDennis460-+AT+-aol.com
 10) Fanfic, Queen's Own, and Copyright Laws
	by "Abigail Laughlin" <abbykat-+AT+-hotmail.com>
 11) Fan-art
	by Brentie <ssjgohanjr-+AT+-yahoo.com>

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 20:55:54 +0100
From: "Dan Halford" <dan-+AT+-myshed.net>
To: <mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk>
Subject: Re: thanks, Tayledras, magic
Message-ID: <004701c00629$ba6ceb60$9b00a8c0-+AT+-dan>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Abby Normal" <ambermoon_00-+AT+-yahoo.com>

<snip>

<
First there is the problem of the clearly-defined
aging process, as I recall several elders in k'Sheyna
and k'Vala vales looking their age.
>

Looking their age, or looking old? There's a difference.

<
Second, and more
important, is the matter of of bleaching. It is stated
that living in a Vale, with a heartstone and the
constant flow of magic, causes complete bleaching in
two years or less.
>

I think you'll find that the comment was something like WORKING with node
magic bleached hair within two years. Just living with it took longer.

<
This is not so in Winds; in fact,
Firesong once tells Darkwind, "My hair was white by
the time I was ten," (Winds_of_Change, 357 pb) as a
way of impressing upon Darkwind his training and
talent. (For that matter, wouldn't people in the
Palace be affected by the Heartstone within?)
>

The Palace heartstone is described in the book in which it's created as
being small. It also was in a very heavily shielded room, so shielded that
Firesong could not detect it through magic alone... they had to measure the
palace to find the "lost" space it was in.

<
In addition to this, there is a problem with the
theory of magic. Vanyel once reflects on his "ability
to use the lines and currents of power, and the nodes
where they met, as the ancients had done and the
Tayledras could still do, though none of the other
Herald-Mages except Savil could." However, in the
Storms trilogy an explanation of magic and mage-levels
is given as follows:
>

<snip>

<
This is the most thorough and almost the only
comprehensive explanation of magic in the series. It
is consistent with the explanation Moondance gives
Vanyel in Magic's_Pawn. No other theories are ever
given. However, if this is so, it would place all
Herald-Mages other than Vanyel and Savil at Journeyman
level; they could be Masters, but no mention is ever
made of a magic reservoir for Heraldic use.
>

No - but it was clear from reading other books that use of nodes was a trait
peculiar to the Tayledras or those hwo had been Tayledra-trained. Kethry is
never mentioned as using it, although she was an Adept, and in the Storm
trilogy, the empire Adept mages don't seem to use it. Different training,
different ways of cracking the egg. Sounds perfectly reasonable to me. For a
real-world example, look at the different practices adopted by the USA and
Russia in achieving identical goals in various technological and scientific
feats ... cryptography is a good example, as is the space race as was.

<
This is
inconsistent with the magical feats they were able to
perform. (There is also a point in Winds_of_Change
when Darkwind states that Journeymen are unable to use
ley-lines, but that is less important.) It is most
likely that Mercedes Lackey did not think the theory
all the way through while writing LHM; still, it has
disturbed me for some time.
>

I cannot even THINK about the complexities of inventing a whole universe,
numerous cultures, physical and "magical" therories and a raft of religions.
What Misty has done is admirable. Considering that people still have
problems using their own mother-tongue in the real world, let alone grapsing
things like quantum mechanics, I think that these SMALL discrepencies are
worth enduring, don't you?

<
There are other inconsistancies between LHM and
'present day' Tayledras, regarding appearance and
living conditions, but these may simply be traditions
that changed over the course of the centuries.
>

One thousand years ago, the inhabitants of western Europe were often found
living in mud-huts... and a thousand years before that, many of the world's
civilised people inhabited stone- or brick-built houses with modern-ish
conveniences like central heating, hot and cold running water, and advanced
sewerage facilities. Times change. No reason why the Tayledras couldn't.

<
I understand that these discrepancies are
probably just that, as I have been unable to think of
something to account for them. Like Darkwind and
Elspeth's ages (if anyone remembers my equally long
and detailed post somewhat over a year ago regarding
that), I suppose that these are matters which simply
must not be examined too closely. If, however, anyone
sees something that I do not, I would be quite happy
to be proven wrong.
>

I agree - read the book for its story, not to see if Misty's description of
the hair-bleaching aspect of node-magic exactly matches the time-scale
expressed in another book.

Dan


------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 14:46:59 -0700
From: "Hill, Susan" <susan.hill-+AT+-weyerhaeuser.com>
To: "'mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk'" <mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk>
Subject: fan fic
Message-ID: <872A9D7CC09CD11188CE00805FBB042E05BFFEAF-+AT+-emswwc7.weyer.com>

This is something Patricia Kennealy Morrison says about fan fic - I didn't
get it until she put it this way:
FAQ:Do you allow fan fiction about Keltia?
	No, I do not. I don't think fan fiction is particularly healthy for
the creative souls of the fans writing it. If you have a need to create,
create your own world, kids, don't steal someone else's. 

It is theft a bit - after all, Misty created these people and this
country...you're stealing her settings and her characters when you use them.
By writing about her stuff (fic stuff anyway) you're placing YOUR
perspective on a universe that is NOT yours. How would you feel if someone
came into your life and wrote a poem about you and/or your friends based on
what people wrote in your yearbook? Misty has created the situations, the
drama, the dialog, the "laws of the universe." All you are doing is
rehashing them, possibly incorrectly. 

Its HERS, not YOURS. If you want to write creatively, make up your own
world. Heck, pick the things about several authors that you like, and go
from there. If you simply can't create your own world, then stick to the
real one - no one can sue you for writing about Caesar or Arthur or Ghandi. 

In short, Valdemar exists for us because of Misty - but it was built, stone
by stone, word by word, by Mercedes Lackey and she has the RIGHT and the
PRIVILEDGE to determine if/when/how anyone else may present Valdemar to
others. 

Don't make her angry by presuming you know enough about Valdemar to write
about it. (creatively - I do think a critical essay is okay.) I think we all
know that we do NOT know enough (afterall, why would we speculate so much on
this list?).

As for papers for school and the like - if you are in college in the US, I
was told typically any undergraduate work you do for class becomes the
property of the university - so if they publish it, you might get credit but
they will take all profit - so the lawyers would probably have to name the
university in a law suit (but I could be wrong.) This is particularly
important to those of us in the sciences who do lab research as undergrads.
You could invent a cure for cancer and not get anything out of it. Only
until you are a graduate student are you protected.

Write your own stuff, folks. If you absolutely HAVE to write something,
emphasize the emotional situation and leave as much specifics as possible
out of it. And for Kernos's sake, DON'T email it to the list. Misty's #1
secretary is a member here, and there are other "powers that be" lurking on
the list - they could have the not-so-nice-lawyer-people showing up to have
a "chat" with you. While I know we all love to be the center of attention,
you do NOT need that type of attention, I promise.

-Suzi




------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 16:52:00 -0700
From: Cat Ray <sgray1-+AT+-uswest.net>
To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk
Subject: Re: fan fic
Message-ID: <39988620.9195D9FB-+AT+-uswest.net>

    I was just informed that Mercedes Lackey allowed fan-fiction back when she
was first published. What made her change her mind? Was her work being
plagerized? I can understand her concerns, they're justifible.
    Also, this may be a stupid question, but "Kenneth Allen Hyde" wrote:
    <<Absolutely no fan-fic (including songs, poems,or stories) can be posted to
this list.>>
    Does this mean that fan-fic can be written so long as it is _only_ for the
author's enjoyment, as long as it's not posted on the list? I gathered from the
discussion that it meant all fan-fic, in general. I know that with Elfquest
(co-authored by Wendy and Richard Pini), they have a mailing list, and then a
seperate list for fan-fic.

Cat


------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 17:29:42 PDT
From: "Victoria H." <wukolia-+AT+-hotmail.com>
To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk
Subject: Re: fan fic
Message-ID: <F117Zq0Z48xzzw3Bhgu0000015e-+AT+-hotmail.com>


  Well, I guess I'll put my two cents in on the whole fan-fic issue.  My 
opinion - If Misty doesn't want us to then we shouldn't, whether it's legal 
or not is beside the point.  (And it *is* illegal!)  I mean, we all love 
Misty's writings, and we should respect her wishes.

>From: Cat Ray <sgray1-+AT+-uswest.net>

>     I was just informed that Mercedes Lackey allowed fan-fiction >back 
>when she was first published. What made her change her mind? Was >her work 
>being plagerized? I can understand her concerns, they're >justifible.

  I think if you go to the firebirdarts site (www.firebirdarts.com) one of 
the questions in Ask Misty there's something that might explain  why she 
changed her mind (it's about Misty reading/critiquing fanfics) - basically, 
Misty just doesn't want to get in any legal/copyright trouble.
  She brings up the case of one of Marion Zimmer Bradley's Darkover novels 
that had to be completely scrapped because a fan wrote some fanfiction and 
then threatened to sued MZB if she didn't pay the fan equal credit and 
money.  Misty just wants to protect her own ideas... and in doing so, she'll 
be able to continue writing the novels we all love.

  *sigh*  The legal world is one scary place, isn't it? ;)

   Zhai'helleva,

   Victoria
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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 17:34:05 -0700 (PDT)
From: Brentie <ssjgohanjr-+AT+-yahoo.com>
To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk
Subject: Re: fan fic
Message-ID: <20000815003405.15822.qmail-+AT+-web4107.mail.yahoo.com>

if some one wrote a poem about me from stuff people
write i my yearbook i would be very very flatered that
would be one of the nicest things someone has ever
done for me 

and as for the poem it was nice the rhymes seemed
alittle off but it was well written im starting to
understand the extreme anger some of you are feeling
but i cant bring myself yell at someone for a poem
like that it was short and wasnt specific about any
names

if it were a story then i could understand being
incredibly pissed (if i was the author) especelly if
it  was a good story then i would know i could never
use it in my book and that would just through me off
track for a long while

but since i havent heard about and lawsuits being
filed i think ill just leave it as what it is a poem
to show how much someone likes the valdemar series

Brentie,
"Imitation is the sincerist from of flattery."- someone

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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 17:37:58 -0700 (PDT)
From: Brentie <ssjgohanjr-+AT+-yahoo.com>
To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk
Subject: Re: fan fic
Message-ID: <20000815003758.4554.qmail-+AT+-web4104.mail.yahoo.com>

i think what cxhanged her mind as the fact that marion
zimmer bradely had i lawsuit against her for copy
someones work in her books but im not sure dont take
anything i say at face value it could just be someone
elses guess



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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 18:23:25 -0700
From: Cat Ray <sgray1-+AT+-uswest.net>
To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk
Subject: Re: fan fic
Message-ID: <39989B8D.58A81322-+AT+-uswest.net>

Brentie wrote:

> if some one wrote a poem about me from stuff people
> write i my yearbook i would be very very flatered that
> would be one of the nicest things someone has ever
> done for me
> Brentie,
> "Imitation is the sincerist from of flattery."- someone

    Exactly. I think that fan-fic is a reader's way of expressing their
appreciation for what the author has created. Imitation is the sincerest
form of flattery. Now, I'm NOT saying Misty is wrong for saying "NO
fan-fic." It is _entirely_ up to the discretion of the author. As Susan
Hill said: <<she has the RIGHT and the PRIVILEGE to determine
if/when/how anyone else may present Valdemar to others.>> If someone
wrote a poem about me, based on writing in my yearbook, I would be
flattered... unless I had already told that person that I had a similar
plan. Which is understandable for everyone. Having your ideas stolen is
NOT cool.
<soapbox>
    But I do believe that a lot of people on this list jumped down
Nicole's throat when she posted the poem. Maybe it had been a long time
since she'd read the rules-- she'd forgotten. We don't know-- but we
don't need to start "yelling." There are--were--polite ways to tell
someone when they've made a mistake. Some people were down-right rude...
They didn't have overly nice or gushy or anything... but they couldn't
even be polite. Now, I haven't been on this list long, but the other
mailing list I'm on (non-Mercedes Lackey) everyone at least manages to
be polite. For the past three months I have seen a lot on this list that
discourages me. Maybe the list isn't like this all the time, but
sometimes it seems that people can't even take the time to be polite.
</soapbox>
    That's all I have to say.

Cat




------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 22:23:22 EDT
From: Pyrephox18-+AT+-aol.com
To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk
Subject: Re: fan fic
Message-ID: <43.8f5fd52.26ca039a-+AT+-aol.com>

In a message dated 8/14/00 6:16:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
susan.hill-+AT+-weyerhaeuser.com writes:

<< This is something Patricia Kennealy Morrison says about fan fic - I didn't
 get it until she put it this way:
 FAQ:Do you allow fan fiction about Keltia?
    No, I do not. I don't think fan fiction is particularly healthy for
 the creative souls of the fans writing it. If you have a need to create,
 create your own world, kids, don't steal someone else's.  >>

I've been reading the discussion with interest, but not posting until this. 
I've got to say that, as a fan-fic writer (not anything from Mercedes 
Lackey's novels, obviously) I'd have to say that I find the above pretty 
offensive. 

Fanfiction is not theft unless abused (i.e. the total idiocy of suing an 
author over copyright), in my opinion. It does use unoriginal characters 
and/or worlds, but I've yet to see any valid statistical data showing that it 
*hurts* the original work either asthetically or financially, and my personal 
experience says otherwise. These days, I rarely watch a tv show or pick up a 
series book unless I've been introduced through fan pages and fan work. Even 
more than reader reccomendations, fan work makes me sit up and take notice. 
Sometimes I'm dissapointed, but I've found that an active fanfiction/fanart 
community tends to be a sign of a good series.

And the impulse that drives some fans to write fanfiction/draw fanart is, I'm 
willing to bet, the *exact* same one that drove Ms. Lackey to write The Fire 
Rose, Firebird, and The Black Swan (minus the profit margin). What is 
"Arthur, King" (King Arthur travels through time to become a WWII pilot) by 
Dennis Lee Anderson, but a commerically viable fan-fic? People *love* 
stories. People love even more to participate in the story, and make it in 
some small way their own. You see it in children as they insist that the 
bedtime story is an audience participation event, you see it in authors who 
continually return to the fairy tales that they love by rewriting them for a 
new generation of readers, and you see it in fans who--unable to participate 
in any other way--express their love (and, yes, frustration) for that book, 
movie, television series through unofficial rewrites and elaborations.

And as for the health of my "creative soul", I think it's doing quite well, 
thank you very much. Fanfic, if anything, has given me practice I desperately 
needed in finishing stories, maintaining consistant characterization, and 
(most importantly) the courage to put the products of my labor out in public 
and dealing with the reaction of that public. All of these are things that 
I've taken to my original fiction (most of which is written while I'm working 
on a piece of fanfiction, it should be noted), to the betterment of the work.

 I don't think I'd ever had the guts to submit the two pieces of my work 
which *have* been accepted for publication, if I hadn't had the experience 
with internet rejection I gained from the fanfiction newsgroups. 

But, in case it wasn't clear before, I have no intention of writing Lackey 
fanfic. After all, my momma always told me not to play where I wasn't wanted. 
;)

Pyrephox

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 22:25:16 EDT
From: MDennis460-+AT+-aol.com
To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk
Subject: Re: fan fic
Message-ID: <15.7febb9c.26ca040c-+AT+-aol.com>

I for one am getting tired of the seemingly unceasing discussion of fanfic 
and misty and her worlds.  Could we please move on to some other topic?  If 
you still wish to pursue it please could we take it off line.

if you want to get into the why's wherefores and the history of misty's 
saying no to fanfic.... well, please take it off list.  i have all ready 
heard it from several sources, and have chosen the fan that i believe.  it is 
very involved, and i really don't want to see or read all of it again.  if 
you have any questions about it, why don't you take it to misty's secretary, 
or to the firebird's ask misty webpage and get the real version, according to 
the official sources.  

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 03:07:46 GMT
From: "Abigail Laughlin" <abbykat-+AT+-hotmail.com>
To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk
Subject: Fanfic, Queen's Own, and Copyright Laws
Message-ID: <F4q12LRF58tP9DLf4bg00000185-+AT+-hotmail.com>

Cariad wrote:
<<On Copyright:
I find this kind of discussion very interesting. I am confused about 
something, however. I am currently working on a persona for Queens Own, and 
it seems like the requirements include creating fanfic! On the Queens Own 
website, it talks about obtaining a release to write it -- I think. Here is 
where I am confused. Am I doing something illegal in working on my persona? 
Because if I am, I'll stop. I'd hate to get in trouble with the law, 
besides, I would hate to cause Misty grief.>>

The release that the Queen's Own information refers to is a form provided on 
the site for you to print, fill out, and send to Misty. The release 
essentially asks Misty for her permission to write a story in her world, so 
that you can write a story for your QO requirements without breaking the law 
and going against Misty's wishes.

And, yes, the world (or at least the country; I forget) that Bardic Voices 
is set in is called Alanda.

Zha'hai'allav'a,
Raven Darkblade and Mor the raven,
Holy Hand of the Goddess of Elves,
Member of the Mistic Circle,
Webmaster of the Circle of Stone,
Knight and Founding Member of the Order of Unsung Heroes;
http://www.angelfire.com/ky/Ashke/ - The Labyrinth

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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 20:14:12 -0700 (PDT)
From: Brentie <ssjgohanjr-+AT+-yahoo.com>
To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk
Subject: Fan-art
Message-ID: <20000815031412.18246.qmail-+AT+-web4103.mail.yahoo.com>

is fan-art good or is that a no-no as well

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------------------------------

End of MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 2382
**********************************