MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 2437 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) RE: Van's story as in AotQ by "Jonathan Stitt" 2) Gwena, Companion Bonds, and Vanyel in AotQ by "Abigail Laughlin" 3) Re: Van's story as in AotQ by Lish Monahan 4) The Lendel-Stef-reincarnation thing... by Lish Monahan 5) Re: Van's story as in AotQ by "David H. Tiffany" 6) A Magely flame in the Halls of Mist by Kenneth Allen Hyde 7) Re: Gwena, Companion Bonds, and Vanyel in AotQ by Lish Monahan 8) Re: Van's story as in AotQ/Lifebond Tre'valen by "Ashes Dust" 9) Re: Van's story as in AotQ/Lifebond Tre'valen by B10nd31-+AT+-aol.com 10) H and C by Sara Peek ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 08:43:15 -0400 From: "Jonathan Stitt" To: Subject: RE: Van's story as in AotQ Message-ID: <001101c04013$7987c0b0$d1fd61c7-+AT+-wolf.jws.com> ...Delurking, briefly. . . The story IMOHP that Talia is reading is the actual correct story of Vanyel. Talia is (in her own mind) adding herself to the story. (She is the female Herald w/ Companion) Talia wants to be a Herald so badly that she fantasizes herself into the story line. (Having done it myself with J.R.R. Tolkien's great works, I know where she is coming from. I still (at age 38) daydream about being a Ranger of Ithilien. ....Lurking shields up. . . . -----Original Message----- From: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk [mailto:mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk]On Behalf Of Kate Tyler Sent: Friday, October 27, 2000 1:32 AM To: jstitt-+AT+-jws.com Subject: Van's story as in AotQ De-lurking to ask a question. What do others think about the deference between Van's story proper and the one at the start of AotQ ? As you're all aware in AotQ at the beginning there is a section Talia reads about the prelude to the battle at the (presently named) Forest of Sorrows. Included of course are Van, Stef, a woman herald and two companions. As we all know this is altered Magics Price. No woman herald and only Stef to ride away on Vans companion for help. (If the actual Misty songs covering this event are to be included, there also was no woman herald present.) I've seen this before in the Dragonrider series with inconsistent references to "The Ballad of Moretas Ride" and the actual novel "Moretas Story." Anyone have some plausible, (or completely non-plausible) ideas or explanations about this? Kate ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 12:56:41 GMT From: "Abigail Laughlin" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Gwena, Companion Bonds, and Vanyel in AotQ Message-ID: Re Gwena and what would likely happen to her if Elspeth died: I expect she'd die, but I don't think the phrase 'go nuts', which seems to be getting tossed around a bit, is really applicable. Remember that in MPrice, after the deaths of Heralds Kilchas and Lissandra and their Companions, one of the other Companions (Yfandes, I think) notes a bit worriedly that while Companions seldom live much longer than their Chosen, they usually have the time to say goodbye to the other Companions... as though it's more of a choice on their part, rather than something that just happens. One can safely assume that Gala and Tylendel's reactions had a lot more to do with the other stresses they were under--the death of Staven, the strong magics Tylendel was working, the horrible things he was doing, guilt at having not seen it on Gala's part and guilt and rejection on Tylendel's part at being repudiated and watching Gala suicide--than the relatively simple loss of the Companion/Herald Bond. I don't think they can be held up as a control subject to which to compare more ordinary situations. Interestingly, we don't have any examples of a normal Herald or Companion dying and leaving their partner alive. Plenty of dead Heralds and Companions, sure, but either they are both killed at roughly the same time (Ylsa and her Companion, Kris and Tantris), there is a lot more going on here than just a death (Lan and Kalira, Tylendel and Gala, Savil and Kellan, Kilchas and Lissandra and their two Companions), or they suicide for some Higher Purpose, in which case they're in it together (How many do you want me to name?). <> This one gets run over periodically. It's true that, in the beginning of AotQ, Talia is reading a book about Vanyel. However, the italicized segment that Misty includes is *not* from the book Talia is reading--it's a daydream she is having in which she and her (fictitious) Companion Evalie are with Vanyel shortly before his final battle. Similarly, after she runs away she daydreams that a Herald finds her and tells her she's to be Chosen and become a Herald; it's clearly a daydream because Talia has no idea how Choosing works and thinks that the Heralds do it, not the Companions. Nowhere in actual Valdemaran history does anyone claim that anyone other than Stefen and Yfandes were with Vanyel at that point--the discussion about what happened to him during Talia's class, for instance. With regards to the discrepancies in the story told in the class... it's been a *long* time since Vanyel died, even without taking the prohibition against magic into account. A lot of the details get left out or re-interpreted after so much time passes. This is probably why their telling of Van's story sounds a little off to the readers... we, for all intents and purposes, were there. They weren't. Zha'hai'allav'a, Raven Darkblade and Mor the raven, Holy Hand of the Goddess of Elves, Member of the Mistic Circle, Webmaster of the Circle of Stone, Knight and Founding Member of the Order of Unsung Heroes; http://www.angelfire.com/ky/Ashke/ - The Labyrinth _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 09:08:08 -0400 (EDT) From: Lish Monahan To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Van's story as in AotQ Message-ID: > As you're all aware in AotQ at the beginning there is a section Talia > reads about the prelude to the battle at the (presently named) Forest of > Sorrows. Included of course are Van, Stef, a woman herald and two > companions. As we all know this is altered Magics Price. No woman herald > and only Stef to ride away on Vans companion for help. (If the actual Misty > songs covering this event are to be included, there also was no woman > herald present.) > Story." > Anyone have some plausible, (or completely non-plausible) ideas or > explanations about this? My understanding was that she was reading the story, but (as I'm sure many of us do, at least I know I sure do!!) Talia was imagining herself as a particpant/actor in the events. So, the woman herald in her iaginations-was herself. :) Pax! Eilis ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 09:16:30 -0400 (EDT) From: Lish Monahan To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: The Lendel-Stef-reincarnation thing... Message-ID: Here's just a thought to throw out cause it always sort of bothered me. You would think that in the afterlife one would regain memories of all ones past lives, not just the most recent one, so Stef would -know- he had been Lendel, wouldn't he? And I'm sure from the various little hints dropped that Van at least suspects the possibility of Stef/Lendel being the same spirit. I mean, Savil and everyone else guessed, and Van's had an extra 800 years to hang out with him... I think Stef/Lendel's spirit more than made up for his mistakes in his first life, and with the exception of Yfandes there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of evidence for heralds being -bonded- to their companions permanently... the MOC had multiple heralds, and heralds are reincaranter-without their companions also being reincarnated... so perhpas Yfandes is as much an exceptional companion as the MOC, in which case we shouldn't worry to much about the lack of Gala's presence. I would hope that she had gone on to her next incarnation so she, like Lendel, could fix/help with the damage that was done. Slainte, Eilis ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 06:28:32 -0700 (PDT) From: "David H. Tiffany" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Van's story as in AotQ Message-ID: On Fri, 27 Oct 2000, Kate Tyler wrote: > De-lurking to ask a question. What do others think about the deference > between Van's story proper and the one at the start of AotQ ? [snip] > I've seen this before in the Dragonrider series with inconsistent > references to "The Ballad of Moretas Ride" and the actual novel "Moretas > Story." > Anyone have some plausible, (or completely non-plausible) ideas or > explanations about this? Artistic license? Drift in story in oral tradition? Somebody trying to punch up the story a bit? Flat-out invention, like Washington and the Cherry Tree?(or throwing the silver dollar, or having wooden teeth) David H Tiffany, Gog op Rupos ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 12:48:57 -0400 (EDT) From: Kenneth Allen Hyde To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: A Magely flame in the Halls of Mist Message-ID: *eerie music is playing and shadows gather. There is a sense of forboding doom as a mysterious figure steps out of the shadow. As the unmistakable chords of "O Fortuna" surge powerfully through the Halls of Mist, the figure throws up his hands in a powerful gesture of summoning. Suddenly twisting runnels of fire in every shade of green leap from the figure to twine around him, revealing the time-haunted, vulpine features of the Mage of Green Silences. As the malachite flames gather in his hands, he raises his eyes to meet those of Renee, Ashes, and Kristy and speaks, his voice echoing sepulchrally. "Let the burning begin."* "Oh, do not think that your simple statements and commentary will shield you. First I will dispose of your unseemly quotes, and then I will deal with you." Flames leap from the Mage's hands to eagerly devour the huge masses of unnecessarily lengthy quoted material. [large pile of ex-prose with little green flamelets leaping over the heat-tortured ruins.] "Now, O most unfortunate ones, prepare to face me and know the penalty for your transgression!" At these words the hovering verdant flames rush in to surround Renee, Ashes, and Kristy. Each of the three hapless victims screams as the searing knowledge of her crime burns into her mortal form, forever branding her with the ineluctable knowledge that she has dared to clog the leylines of the virtual world with her excessive quoting. Her soul reels and twists in the emerald grip of the flame as she is made horribly aware of the magnitude of her transgression of having not taken the time to trim her quotations to a manageable size. In the end, the fire consumes her, as it will consume all those who would dare to invite the Mage's wrath! The Mage stares balefully at the remains of his victim, before turning and vanishing into the shadows of the Halls of the Green Silences. *Harsh laughter wraps through the fading strains of "Funeral March" from "Seigfried"* A lingering voice ghosts back to say, "Learn to snip! You have been warned!" Cennydd The Mage of Green Silences and Councilor of Mist Kenneth Allen Hyde | No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife Univ. of Delaware | between the shoulder blades will seriously Dept. of Linguistics | cramp his style -- Old Jhereg proverb kenny-+AT+-Udel.Edu | A mind is a terrible toy to waste! -- Me //www.ling.udel.edu/hyde/prof/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 13:12:01 -0400 (EDT) From: Lish Monahan To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Gwena, Companion Bonds, and Vanyel in AotQ Message-ID: > Interestingly, we don't have any examples of a normal Herald or Companion > dying and leaving their partner alive. Plenty of dead Heralds and > Companions, sure, but either they are both killed at roughly the same time > (Ylsa and her Companion, Kris and Tantris), there is a lot more going on > here than just a death (Lan and Kalira, Tylendel and Gala, Savil and Kellan, > Kilchas and Lissandra and their two Companions), or they suicide for some > Higher Purpose, in which case they're in it together (How many do you want > me to name?). > I think you're right about our lack of a control subject when it comes to these dealings. As a thought on the same mental track as all this though, I was thinking that since a H-C bond seems to be based on friendship, honor, duty and all that, but is artificially created (not like a lifebond, which is presumably part of the soul ince its inception), I would like to think that if a herald lost his Companion he would probably be chosen again to keep him from going mad with grief. I think there may even be a referenceto something like that having occured once. Eilis (pronouced as A-lish, so I often go by Lish) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 13:24:13 CDT From: "Ashes Dust" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Van's story as in AotQ/Lifebond Tre'valen Message-ID: >From: Kate Tyler >Reply-To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk >To: banshee_ashes-+AT+-hotmail.com >Subject: Van's story as in AotQ >Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 06:30:30 +0100 (BST) > >De-lurking to ask a question. What do others think about the deference >between Van's story proper and the one at the start of AotQ ? > As you're all aware in AotQ at the beginning there is a section Talia >reads about the prelude to the battle at the (presently named) Forest of >Sorrows. Included of course are Van, Stef, a woman herald and two >companions. As we all know this is altered Magics Price. No woman herald >and only Stef to ride away on Vans companion for help. (If the actual Misty >songs covering this event are to be included, there also was no woman >herald present.) > I've seen this before in the Dragonrider series with inconsistent >references to "The Ballad of Moretas Ride" and the actual novel "Moretas >Story." > Anyone have some plausible, (or completely non-plausible) ideas or >explanations about this? > >Kate > =============================================================== Well, AotQ was created BEFORE Van's story, so the story might not have been planned out yet. Like when ML went back and filled in the Mage Wars. OR she could have had it planned out that there was a descrepency (sp?) between the real story and that of AofQ...a statement about history not always telling all the truth? Who knows? Q: On pg. 240 in Winds of Change, Tre'valen calls Dawnfire his soulmate...Are they lifebonded or lovebonded? I'm not sure because most lists of L/Lbonds has them on the Love-bond list, but doesn't him calling her a soulmate make them lifebonded (if he was correct in calling her a soulmate)? Which is it?!? -Ashes (Hopefully will soon be Herald Gaia Waterborn) ~*~*~Shadow-Lover give me a kiss,~*~*~ ~*~*~so I can join you in the dark abyss.~*~*~ (URL: http://www.geocities.com/banshee_ashes) =================================================================== _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 18:34:52 EDT From: B10nd31-+AT+-aol.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Van's story as in AotQ/Lifebond Tre'valen Message-ID: In a message dated 27/10/00 19:55:28 GMT Daylight Time, banshee_ashes-+AT+-hotmail.com writes: << Well, AotQ was created BEFORE Van's story, so the story might not have been planned out yet. Like when ML went back and filled in the Mage Wars. OR she could have had it planned out that there was a discrepancy between the real story and that of AofQ...a statement about history not always telling all the truth? Who knows? >> hmmm me Misty said a while ago i think at a convention ( so it will be a few years ago ) that Talia had day dreamed herself into the story as the female herald (i forget her name) who rescued Stefen. The reason may also be on the ask Misty part of the Firebird Arts & Music site ( Firebird Arts & Music Virtual Catalog just for those that may not have it's addy ) They are other genuine discrepancys 1/ During Talia's oriention classes Teren said that Vanyel was hacked to pieces. 2/ Talia's healer friend Devan talked about his involment in hunting gryphons. these are from first book. just my 2d worth Sash ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 17:10:21 -0700 (PDT) From: Sara Peek To: Misty list Subject: H and C Message-ID: <20001028001021.8046.qmail-+AT+-web4601.mail.yahoo.com> *The doors of Mist open and a tall girl walks tentatively in. She stays close to the wall, ashamed that she has missed the last two weeks of conversation. She doesn't know the latest topics, but has a question of her own.* Do Companions and their Heralds stay together through time, as do life-bonded couples? (I'm going off Vanyel for this.) Could Kerowyn be Kellan, for example? Just a thought, Sara (This space for rent) You have not even to risk the adventure alone, For the heroes of all time have gone before you. ~Joseph Campbell __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE. http://im.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ End of MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 2437 **********************************