MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 2531

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Re: MERCEDES-LACKEY digest 2525
	by Brentie <ssjgohanjr-+AT+-yahoo.com>
  2) Re: Praying for Success In Battle
	by Veronica M Maddox <vmmaddox-+AT+-indiana.edu>
  3) Re: Praying for Success In Battle
	by "Layla Voll" <layla_voll-+AT+-hotmail.com>
  4) Re: Praying for Success In Battle?
	by J80Kath-+AT+-aol.com
  5) Re: Praying for Success In Battle?
	by Kenneth Allen Hyde <kenny-+AT+-UDel.Edu>
  6) Re: Praying for Success In Battle?
	by "Layla Voll" <layla_voll-+AT+-hotmail.com>
  7) Re: Praying for Success In Battle?
	by "Rebecca McAllister" <becs71-+AT+-hotmail.com>
  8) RE: Praying for Success In Battle?
	by "Howell, Tommy" <thowell-+AT+-tdmn.com>
  9) Religions...
	by "Li'nia Stormdancer" <lady_stormdancer-+AT+-yahoo.com>
 10) Mage Wars
	by Sara Peek <saddlefan-+AT+-yahoo.com>
 11) Who is Mornelithe?
	by "Gondar" <gondar-+AT+-mynet.waw.pl>
 12) RE: Praying for Success In Battle?
	by J80Kath-+AT+-aol.com

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 17:42:27 -0800 (PST)
From: Brentie <ssjgohanjr-+AT+-yahoo.com>
To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk
Subject: Re: MERCEDES-LACKEY digest 2525
Message-ID: <20010302014227.5302.qmail-+AT+-web4102.mail.yahoo.com>

i seem to remember someone or something saying that
the gods tried to act directly as little as they can
because the bad ones wouldnt do anything if it wasnt a
sure thing i dont remeber why the good ones wouldnt oh
well im an idiot 
 partially hydrogenated soy extract sheep shaped
burgers for are vegetarian friends and a big hunk of
raw beef shaped into a sheep for me and the other carnivours

=====
Brent Bloomfield
http://www.geocities.com/ssjgohanjr

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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 21:22:54 -0500 (EST)
From: Veronica M Maddox <vmmaddox-+AT+-indiana.edu>
To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk
Subject: Re: Praying for Success In Battle
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1010301212109.22993A-100000-+AT+-kate.ucs.indiana.edu>



On Fri, 2 Mar 2001, Sara Peek wrote:

> 
> --- Abigail Laughlin <abbykat-+AT+-hotmail.com> wrote:
> > <<On a different subject -- does anyone know why the
> > priests are forbidden 
> > to
> > pray for Valdemar's success in battle? That one
> > always puzzled me.>>
> > 
> > My understanding is that it would violate the
> > essential Valdemaran 
> > creed--that there is no one true way. 
> 
> Yeah, people on the other side could concievably pray
> to the same god for victory... It would be interesting
> if that god helped Valdemar because they *weren't*
> praying but rather helping themselves... Back to
> topic, if different religions decided to/not to pray
> for victory, they might get things like "Our prayers
> won the war" or "We lost because they didn't pray"  or
> even "We lost because *they* prayed for help".  It
> would certainly encourage religious rivalry and maybe
> even split the country.
> 
> My two pennies in the well of discussion,
> Bright tomorrows all,
> Sara
> Crazy Freshman
> 
> Carpe Diem!
> Seize the day, for it will not be here tomorrow!
> ~Dead Poets' Society
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. 
> http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
> 
> 
Maybe Misty just radically believes in separation from church and state?
I'll ask a minister his views on it next time I converse with one.  :)
PS - I'm new to the list so if I send this wrong, someone please tell me.
Thanks!

Veronica (vmmaddox-+AT+-indiana.edu / iris_0001-+AT+-hotmail.com)


------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 16:43:37 
From: "Layla Voll" <layla_voll-+AT+-hotmail.com>
To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk
Subject: Re: Praying for Success In Battle
Message-ID: <F271XPJFcUFa4FtdNTX00000fe3-+AT+-hotmail.com>

Veronica M Maddox writes:
>On Fri, 2 Mar 2001, Sara Peek wrote:
> > > On a different subject -- does anyone know why the priests are > > 
>forbidden to pray for Valdemar's success in battle? That one
> > > always puzzled me.>>
....
> > Yeah, people on the other side could concievably pray
> > to the same god for victory... It would be interesting
> > if that god helped Valdemar because they *weren't*
> > praying but rather helping themselves... Back to
> > topic, if different religions decided to/not to pray
> > for victory, they might get things like "Our prayers
> > won the war" or "We lost because they didn't pray"  or
> > even "We lost because *they* prayed for help".  It
> > would certainly encourage religious rivalry and maybe
> > even split the country.
>
>Maybe Misty just radically believes in separation from church and state? 
>I'll ask a minister his views on it next time I converse with one.  :)

There's also the question of what, exactly, you're praying for.  Praying for 
victory in battle against Hadorn means that you're also praying to kill a 
whole bunch of farmers-turned-soldiers, or farmers-turned-soldier-zombies, 
most of whom probably have families, most of whom probably don't want to be 
there in the first place, most of whom probably don't even like Ancar, or 
agree with him, or want to be invading Valdemar in the first place.

During the Gulf War, for example, my minister refused to pray for victory.  
(FYI, I live in the US.)  Instead, he prayed for peace, for the soldiers and 
their families on both sides, and for the civilians caught in the war.  This 
was actually a point of controversy in my church for a while, as some people 
thought he ought not to be praying for "the enemy."

Layla
_________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 11:47:39 EST
From: J80Kath-+AT+-aol.com
To: <mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Praying for Success In Battle?
Message-ID: <73.b72d3d3.27d128ab-+AT+-aol.com>

I think I lost the begining of this post, which book talks about not being able to pray for a victorious battle?  I'm searching my memory banks and I just can't remember.

But I would have to agree with everyone else's post so far.  If the priest publicly prayed for a successful battle it would go against Valdemar's freedom of religion creed.  I Publicly because I'm sure the priests offer up a little prayer, as do the common people for the safty of their countrymen and families.

okay that is just my two cents

Rraspberry flavored sheep to all....mmmm raspberry

Jennie

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 13:28:22 -0500 (EST)
From: Kenneth Allen Hyde <kenny-+AT+-UDel.Edu>
To: Misty Lackey List <mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Praying for Success In Battle?
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.31.0103021253320.16408-100000-+AT+-copland.udel.edu>

On Fri, 2 Mar 2001 J80Kath-+AT+-aol.com wrote:

> I'm searching my memory
> banks and I just can't remember.

Arrow's Fall

> But I would have to agree with everyone else's post so far.  If the
> priest publicly prayed for a successful battle it would go against
> Valdemar's freedom of religion creed.

I don't think that it would be a problem as far as freedom of religion.
In fact, the rule against praying for victory is, in itself, a technical
violation of perfect freedom of religion.  After all, if a religion were
truly free, they would be free to pray for whatever they wanted.  Nor do I
think that praying for victory violate the letter of "there is no one
true way."

However, there is always the issue that the "there is no one true way"
(TINOTW) credo does not rule out the possibility of there being "wrong"
ways too.  In fact, the books make it pretty clear that Misty (as the
author) and the characters in the novel all share a position of believing
that some ways of living are just plain wrong.  The tricky part lies in
deciding what is right and what is wrong.

I think that the "No Prayers for Victory" (NPfV) policy is more
complicated than a simple violation of the TINOTW credo.  Rather, the
reason that makes sense for the NPfV policy is that mere mortals, with
their limited understanding of the world and themselves, cannot be sure
whether they are in the right or in the wrong in a given issue.  Praying
for victory is tantamount to claiming "I'm right and they're wrong, and
they deserve to die." When you get right down to it, that's a pretty icky
sentiment to express.

This actually brings back a point that we discussed a couple of years
ago about "Burning Water."  The question was raised (by me, I think) of
whether the priest of Tezcatlipocha was evil or not, since he was obeying
a god.  My point was that one definition (a religious one) of good is
"good is obeying the laws and commands of your religions god(s)."  In
other words, if your deity says to do something that other people see as
evil, is it really evil for you to obey him/her?  (This question only
makes sense if you grant that the deity in question is a bona-fide,
card-carrying god in good standing with the Pan-Universal God Club). In
essence, when you pray for the destruction of another group, you are
saying "my moral system is right and yours is wrong."

Anyway, I think that the implication of the NPfV policy is that it is
wrong, according the moral system used in Valdemar, to assert that you
have the necessary insight and understanding to decide which moral systems
are true (i.e., good ones) and which ones are false (i.e., bad ones).

BTW, I'll just throw this weasel in among the small fluffy chicks:  I
personally think that the NPfV policy is a cop-out.  It is based on the
idea that humans are really capable of evaluating a moral system.  In
other words, that we (as humans) cannot judge a god.  I disagree with
that underlying claim.  I think that humans are capable, with thought,
insight, and good-will, of evaluating a moral system and rejecting it,
even up to the point of rejecting the god that goes along with that moral
system.  That is part of our intellectual growth/evolution (whichever
term works best for you).  Of course, I do recognize that most humans
won't bother to make the effort, so I suppose that, given a choice, I'd
prefer to live in the land of the moral cop-out, rather than live in some
country where people self-righteous killed each other for "moral" reasons.

Anyway, that's my 550 cents worth (oooh, that'll get you a caffe latte
with mocha sprinkles!--in a sheep-shaped cup, of course!!!!!<--look, 5!)

May the seas be your solace and the forests a refuge for your spirit,

Cennydd
Councilor of Mist

Kenneth Allen Hyde     |  No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife
Univ. of Delaware      |  between the shoulder blades will seriously
Dept. of Linguistics   |  cramp his style  -- Old Jhereg proverb
kenny-+AT+-Udel.Edu         |  A mind is a terrible toy to waste! -- Me

//www.ling.udel.edu/hyde/prof/



------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 18:53:28 
From: "Layla Voll" <layla_voll-+AT+-hotmail.com>
To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk
Subject: Re: Praying for Success In Battle?
Message-ID: <F187SFsxf4yp8ARf3sl00003276-+AT+-hotmail.com>

Jennie writes:

>I think I lost the begining of this post, which book talks about not being 
>able to pray for a victorious battle?  I'm searching my memory banks and I 
>just can't remember.

It comes up in "Arrows Fall," when Dirk and Elspeth are discussing personal 
responsibility, the role of the Companions, and the nature of evil.  They 
don't know that Talia has already been captured and Kris is already dead, 
but they're worried because Kris and Talia should have returned by now, and 
they haven't.  So Selanay takes a small troop in the direction of the Hadorn 
border.  Elspeth and Dirk spend a lot of time talking together on that trip, 
because they're both worried about Talia, and they're both feeling guilty 
about the fact that Talia left both of them sort of badly, with a lot of 
unresolved issues.  Oh, and they're sort of thrown together because they're 
both regarded as tagalongs on that trip, Elspeth because she's too young, 
and Dirk because he's still recovering from pnemonia.

It may come up elsewhere, but that's the only place I can recall anyone 
specifically saying that Valdemar priests can't pray for victory.

Layla
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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 19:18:59 
From: "Rebecca McAllister" <becs71-+AT+-hotmail.com>
To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk
Subject: Re: Praying for Success In Battle?
Message-ID: <F67bBxOfLqAvnJJP5y100028379-+AT+-hotmail.com>

Heyla list sibs,

>
>
>I think I lost the begining of this post, which book talks about not being 
>able to pray for a victorious battle?  I'm searching my memory banks and I 
>just can't remember.
>
>Jennie

I believe this topic is brought up when Elspeth and dirk are riding at the 
back of the baggage train in Arrows Fall. I would comment on this topic, but 
all my opinions have been voiced so I won't make you read them again.

For another topic, I have noticed that we rarely discuss the Mage Wars 
series on this list. I just finished reading them, and I though that they 
were pretty good excpet for the last one which took a little effort to get 
though. What was everyone else's tkae on those books?

Becca
_________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 15:10:28 -0600 
From: "Howell, Tommy" <thowell-+AT+-tdmn.com>
To: "'mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk'" <mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk>
Subject: RE: Praying for Success In Battle?
Message-ID: <5BA8DB8D54C4D3119956009027DE50C603FE3263-+AT+-tdmnmail.tdmn.belo.com>

I think the Mage Wars are hard to talk about without spoiling too much for
people that haven't read them yet. The events in those books make some
profound changes to the way things work, not only in Valdemar, but in all of
Velgarth.

It's sort of like trying to discuss life on Pern after the 9th pass ended.

-----Original Message-----
For another topic, I have noticed that we rarely discuss the Mage Wars 
series on this list. I just finished reading them, and I though that they 
were pretty good excpet for the last one which took a little effort to get 
though. What was everyone else's tkae on those books?

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 13:09:24 -0800 (PST)
From: "Li'nia Stormdancer" <lady_stormdancer-+AT+-yahoo.com>
To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk
Subject: Religions...
Message-ID: <20010303210924.13033.qmail-+AT+-web1202.mail.yahoo.com>

Heyla List-Sibs!

--- Layla Voll <layla_voll-+AT+-hotmail.com> wrote:
> I notice, however, that this different from Tarma's
> Star-eyed Goddess, who 
> actually steps in at times, most notably to bring
> Kethry back from the dead.

The Star-Eyed does step in on occasion, but only if
there is no other way for her children to do something
(i.e. bringing Kethry back from the dead, or the brink
of it).  IIRC, when Tarma's Clan is destroyed and she
is hunting down the murderers (from "OathBlood"; not a
spoiler, since it first appeared a long time ago in
MZB's "Sword And Sorceress" series), the Goddess helps
her out only as far as she needs to be.  She'd help
point her in the right direction, giving her only as
much coin as needed, etc.  Once Tarma could do this on
her own, She no longer helped out.  And when she does
help out (as mentioned above), she will only do so if
Her child understands WHY she is doing it (i.e. her
answer to Tarma's cry when Keth is killed in
"OathBreakers", pg. 207).

As for praying in battle, I think that many religions
would frown on it, and not just in Valdemar.  The
concensus is that non-believers are just misguided,
and shouldn't be overly punished for that.  In
Valdemar, one factor is that "there is no one true
way", and that no one religion is any better than any
other.  In Karse, Vkandis takes a direct hand with his
follower's lives.  Many would view this as weak, since
His children rely on him so much.  But, He doesn't
really take a hand in day-to-day things.  IIRC, He
takes part in ceremonies by sending Signs and such. 
But, He doesn't answer when His teaching are perverted
(Karal's description of the Midwinter Day when Vkandis
picked his own Son of the Sun, and punished the False
One, "Storm Warning", pg. 93).

Anywho, that's just my take on the whole thing...
Death-by-chocolate sheep to all!!

=====
---<---<---<----+AT+- Li'nia Stormdancer -+AT+---->--->--->---
             Peon to the Powers That Be, 
          Goddess of All Things Possessed, &
 Caretaker of the Arena of Discussion and Dissention

__________________________________________________
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Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. 
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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 09:49:42 -0800 (PST)
From: Sara Peek <saddlefan-+AT+-yahoo.com>
To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk
Subject: Mage Wars
Message-ID: <20010304174942.4281.qmail-+AT+-web4605.mail.yahoo.com>

Heyla Veronica, and all newbies, and sheep-shaped
towels.  (You'll probably need them soon. :))

> For another topic, I have noticed that we rarely
> discuss the Mage Wars 
> series on this list. I just finished reading them,
> and I though that they 
> were pretty good excpet for the last one which took
> a little effort to get 
> though. What was everyone else's tkae on those
books?

I liked the first two; however, I think that Silver
Gryphon would have been better as a short story.  The
Mage Wars series is so different and foreign that it
is hard to discuss along with the "modern" world.


__________________________________________________
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http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 21:17:57 +0100
From: "Gondar" <gondar-+AT+-mynet.waw.pl>
To: "Mercedes-Lackey-+AT+-Herald. Co. Uk" <mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk>
Subject: Who is Mornelithe?
Message-ID: <NEBBLIIPNLFDCAOCLDMEOEAECBAA.gondar-+AT+-mynet.waw.pl>

As i think Mornelite was also in the MAgic war's trilogy. But I'm not sure,
that who was he? Was he hadnelith from "the white gryphon" or Ma'ar from
"the black gryphon?". And who was he? Is he deamon or something like that?


------------------------------

Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 16:52:43 EST
From: J80Kath-+AT+-aol.com
To: <mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk>
Subject: RE: Praying for Success In Battle?
Message-ID: <57.12540d77.27d4132c-+AT+-aol.com>

Well, with out giving anything away, as someone already said may happen if these books were discussed.  When I first started reading Misty's books I read them in chronological order, starting with the Griffin series, which got me hooked(love Skan and Amberdrake, even as old farts) Next in order were the mage wars series with Vanyel.  I loved these books, the issues the characters faced, Vanyels sheer power, it was amazing, even though in the end...Sorry to much.  

Honestly I think if I had started with The Arrows books, the order they were written, I don't know if I would have continued to read the rest of Misty's Velgarth series.  But by that time I was so engrossed in her world that I couldn't stop.  

I do have to say the I think my favorite series would have to be the oath books and the one with Kerowin, I think it is by the sword.

Okay I have rambled enough, time to delve back into my discrete math book, arggg, logic can be so frustrating some times.

jennie

rambler extrodinaire


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End of MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 2531
**********************************