MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 2612 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re: Tashir/Tylendal and Books of Three by "Layla Voll" 2) Re: Tashir/Tylendal and Books of Three by "Layla Voll" 3) Books of Three or More... by "Li'nia Stormdancer" 4) Re: Tashir/Tylendal and Books of Three by Matt Neimeyer 5) Re: Tashir/Tylendal and Books of Three by Matt Neimeyer 6) From Books of Three to Languages... by Matt Neimeyer 7) Re: From Books of Three to Languages... by mclouds-+AT+-cc.wwu.edu 8) Re: Books of Three or More... by =?iso-8859-1?q?Sheridan=20Hoy?= 9) RE: Books of Three or More... by "Howell, Tommy" 10) Re: From Books of Three to Languages... by Kenneth Allen Hyde 11) RE: Books of Three or More... by Hank Tiffany 12) RE: From Books of Three to Languages... by "Howell, Tommy" 13) Re:Misty Languages... by "tntgray" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 18:41:33 From: "Layla Voll" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Tashir/Tylendal and Books of Three Message-ID: I'd asked: > > Why do Vedric and Tashir look so much like Tylendal? .... And Matt Neimayer responded: >I wondered about that... She seemed to make a big deal about it. Perhaps it >was only meant to show how depressed Vanyel was? And Susan Hill writes: >You know - thats a great question. I just thought it was a plot device to >heighten the whole "Vanyel and his lost lifebond" issues, but I wonder if >Misty had a background explanation. There was a while where I was thinking it was just a sign that Vanyel was so caught up with Tylendal's death (which is certainly a theme of "Magic's Promise"). On the other hand, both Savil and Tashir himself see the resemblance, although probably colored by Vanyel's perceptions (Savil because she first "sees" Tashir when Vanyel sends her a image specifically to warn her about how much he resembles Tylendal; Tashir sees Vanyel's Sovvan-night construct of Tylendal, which I agree is one of the most moving scenes in all of her books). So, personally, I've decided to chalk it up to nobility inbreeding touched by Vanyel's own obsession, as long as there isn't some other explanation. Layla: > >Also, a long time ago someone (Susan Hill, perhaps) said that they >thought > >that the trilogies followed a pattern, with the first and last books >being > >much better than the middle book. Matt: >I can see what you mean... I think that happens with a lot of authors >though and not just ML. It's almost like setting everything is "fun", that >winding everything up is also fun... but carrying the details through isn't >nearly as much fun. .... I was pretty set with this theory, until I went to my bookshelf and did some actual empirical research: a quick survey of the trilogies that were there (and by trilogy I meant something that was actually conceived of as a three-part series, not a book that happened to be popular enough to spawn two sequels -- the difference between "Star Wars" and "Indiana Jones"). Basically, I decided that it was all over the map, and, as Matt also points out, not even the Mercedes Lackey books all follow this same pattern, with the Mage Wars being pretty different from the Arrows and Magic trilogies. It is a somewhat consistent pattern for a lot of trilogies, though. As Susan Hill points out, it's sort of the "Star Wars" patterm, with the caveat that I think "Empire Strikes Back" gets better with repeated viewings, especially in the context of the entire trilogy. Anyway, you can stop reading here. Below are the actual results, with commentary, of my bookshelf survey of Trilogies I Happen To Own. Layla ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Appendix of Second Books: The most obvious example of a less-interesting second book is "The Two Towers" (Book 2, Lord of the Rings), which I found far and away the least interesting book of the series, what with all those interminable scenes of Frodo and Sam slogging along. Even the good Merry and Pippin bits in "The Two Towers" rarely compare to the great Merry and Pippin bits in "The Return of the King." However, in my limited sample, the other trilogies were: * Guy Gavriel Kay's "The Fionavar Tapestry," in which the second book is really powerful. I think the books in that series actually get better as the series goes along. * Barbara Hambly's "Windrose" trilogy, in which I liked the second book ("The Silicon Mage") more than the third, mostly because the third is a tad too portentous and Now-We-Must-Save-All-The-Universes-That-Ever-Were. Also because it doesn't have my favorite character from the first two books. I tried looking at longer series, on the theory that the middle book of a five-book series might also dip, but came up with somewhat inconsistent results: * I enjoyed the books in David Edding's two five-book series The Belgariad and The Mallorean all about the same. * My least favorite book in Lloyd Alexander's five-book Prydain Chronicles is probably the fourth (Taran Wanderer) -- not quite the middle -- which is basically Taran learning Important Life Lessons. * I loved all five books in Susan Cooper's "The Dark is Rising" series about equally, although perhaps the third book ("The Greenwitch") least. * The Chronicles of Narnia were tricky, not least because it was tough to figure out what order they ought to be in, and therefore what the real middle books were. Certainly the most heavy-handed, allegorically-speaking, are what are now the first and last books, "The Magician's Nephew" and "The Last Battle," which are probably the least interesting from a fictional standpoint. On the other hand, the middle book, "The Horse and His Boy," falls into that pattern of being sort of a side story, but it is also one of my favorite Narnia stories, only behind "The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe" and "Prince Caspian." Anyway. The ultimate conclusion, I suppose, is that it depends on the particular book :) _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 18:58:40 From: "Layla Voll" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Tashir/Tylendal and Books of Three Message-ID: I wrote: > > "Arrow's Flight" and "Magic's Promise" are good stories, but not ones >I'll > > reread much: they're good books, they're fun plots on their own, and Scott McLoud, Man of Mystery, wrote: >Actually, Arrows Flight was my favorite in the series, but I have a >particular >yen for "training" stories. Generally, I enjoy any parts where a character >goes >through an apprenticeship or other formal training to achieve their goals. >After they become experienced, I find them slightly less interesting. Odd? Not at all! I adore school stories, particularly boarding school stories, so I prefer Arrows of the Queen, where Talia actually takes classes and such, to Arrow's Flight and her apprenticeship. It is, definitely, an American's fixation on the concept of an English boarding school -- I loved PG Wodehouse's "Mike at Wrykyn," for instance, and all of those series of books of Five Find a Secret Way/Seven Discover A Pirate Treasure/Fifteen Go To Mars, or whatever. I think it's because I like background, so I really love, say, the lectures in Vanyel's history classes, or Dallben lecturing from The Book of Three in Lloyd Alexander's series. Oddly enough, the point where our hero graduates from school but then goes off alone to learn more about him or herself is often where I lose interest: Arrow's Flight, or Taran Wanderer, for instance. I think it's because I also have a fetish for quirky sidekicks and background characters, and as soon as the hero goes off, as he or she must, to learn all those important life lessons *alone*, s/he suddenly loses all the people I really liked reading about (like Alberich and Skif, or even Kyril and Elcarth). Layla _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 13:01:12 -0700 (PDT) From: "Li'nia Stormdancer" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Books of Three or More... Message-ID: <20010613200112.18190.qmail-+AT+-web13806.mail.yahoo.com> Heyla List-Sibs! --- Layla Voll wrote: (Reference trilogies...:) > I was pretty set with this theory, until I went to > my bookshelf and did some actual empirical research: > I tried looking at longer series, on the theory that > the middle book of a five-book series might also dip, but came up with somewhat inconsistent > results: * I enjoyed the books in David Edding's two > five-book series The Belgariad and The Mallorean all about the same. While I feel much the same about some trilogies, I was very fond of the entire "Storm" trilogy. I couldn't possibly pick which one I like more! lol However, I agree with some others about the "Arrows" trilogy; I adored "AoQ", and really liked "AFall", but could never really warm to "AFlight". Same with the "Magic" trilogy... However, I am also a huge fan of David Eddings, and loved his longer series "The Mallorean" and "The Belgariad", and truly love his two trilogies, "The Elenium" and "The Tamuli". Other trilogy books I love (the entire trilogies) are "The Keltiad" by Patricia Kennealy-Morrison and the trilogy containing "The Baker's Boy" (sorry, can't remember the name of the series!) by J.V. Jones. I can't remember any others I've read that haven't been mentioned yet... hmmm... ===== ---<---<---<----+AT+- Li'nia Stormdancer -+AT+---->--->--->--- Peon to the Powers That Be, Goddess of All Things Possessed, & Caretaker of the Arena of Discussion and Dissention __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 19:41:29 -0400 From: Matt Neimeyer To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Tashir/Tylendal and Books of Three Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010613192111.00a8bd60-+AT+-ambriel.youth-guard.org> Layla said.... > > > Why do Vedric and Tashir look so much like Tylendal? .... >So, personally, I've decided to chalk it up to nobility inbreeding touched >by Vanyel's own obsession, as long as there isn't some other explanation. Would that imply that Tylendal and Tashir are related somehow? >Appendix of Second Books: Some thoughts... >The most obvious example of a less-interesting second book is "The Two >Towers" (Book 2, Lord of the Rings), which I found far and away the least >interesting book of the series Does this really count since there really are 7 books (the hobbit, followed by pairs of two)? Someone just put out a nicely boxed set of seven books that reinforces this. ]:) Not to mention the fact that the Lord of the Rings is one part of a HUGE piece of works. >* The Chronicles of Narnia were tricky, not least because it was tough to >figure out what order they ought to be in, and therefore what the real >middle books were. I have a set that my sister outgrew that has The Magician's Nephew first followed by the other 6 in order. >Certainly the most heavy-handed, allegorically-speaking, are what are >now the first and last books, "The Magician's Nephew" and "The Last >Battle," which are probably the least interesting from a fictional >standpoint. I was told by an English Major friend in college the C.S. Lewis converted to Christianity somewhere in the middle of writing the series and according to her "you can tell when it happened if you know what you're looking for." I'm not sure if that would be the same your heavy-handedness but I've always suspected that's what she was referring to. As to my collection... I spent a few years not buying books (until I inventoried what I had...) and due to time not reading. I finally got around to my inventory and went back to school so I'm in the process of re-reading all my books (well most of them) now that I've got time. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 19:48:07 -0400 From: Matt Neimeyer To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Tashir/Tylendal and Books of Three Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010613194229.00ae33a0-+AT+-ambriel.youth-guard.org> >I think it's because I also have a fetish for quirky sidekicks >and background characters, and as soon as the hero goes off, as he or she >must, to learn all those important life lessons *alone*, s/he suddenly loses >all the people I really liked reading about (like Alberich and Skif, or even >Kyril and Elcarth). What will be interesting is to see if your love of "quirky sidekicks" holds up when they are the central character. From the recent author chat with Mercedes Lackey we learned that Skif is going to have his own book eventually (Take a Thief?)... I think Alberich has already been featured in a short story (about his Choosing IIRC... and I have another book listed from the chat "Knight's Gambit" that might be about him as well.) For example, looking at Mage Wars Trilogy I definitely like Skan better as a central character in the Black Gryphon than as "the worried dad" in Silver Gryphon... admittedly that could be that the book was slightly less than par for ML but... Matt ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 19:50:41 -0400 From: Matt Neimeyer To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: From Books of Three to Languages... Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010613195018.00ae33a0-+AT+-ambriel.youth-guard.org> Layla (in another thread) mentioned The Lord of Rings by J.R.R. Tolkien which reminded me of something I've always wondered... The short version is simply: How do authors come up with languages? For example, from what I remember, The Lord of the Rings came about because Tolkien was a linguist and decided to invent a language similar to one of the Nordic tongues. And from there he started creating the mythology that went with the language and then from there to creating Middle Earth, which slowly lead to The Lord of the Rings (and which also created a LOT of other material that wasn't nearly as polished or even completed prior to his passing.) Tolkien supposedly is one of the few people to have actually created languages wholesale and in such broad fashion. And not just one... If I remember the count correctly he did High and Low Elven, Dwarvish, Goblin, Hobbit and a few others I know I'm forgetting... So that's at least 6 or 7 complete languages with all the vocabulary and grammar and characters / letters and so on. Someone else created the Klingon language for the Star Trek franchise and that is another complete valid language (more people probably speak it than Latin these days...) So where do these come from... where does someone like Mercedes Lackey pull up Shin'a'in or Tayledras or Karsite or what have you? Just make it up and keep a list of words? Is there anything out there about how this is done? I know... a very broad question but I've always wondered. Partially because I have trouble learning new "human" languages... let alone make one up. Matt ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 00:35:43 -0700 From: mclouds-+AT+-cc.wwu.edu To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: From Books of Three to Languages... Message-ID: <3B28694F.21F75547-+AT+-cc.wwu.edu> Matt Neimeyer wrote: > Layla (in another thread) mentioned The Lord of Rings by J.R.R. Tolkien > which reminded me of something I've always wondered... > > The short version is simply: How do authors come up with languages? > > For example, from what I remember, The Lord of the Rings came about because > Tolkien was a linguist and decided to invent a language similar to one of > the Nordic tongues. And from there he started creating the mythology that > went with the language and then from there to creating Middle Earth, which > slowly lead to The Lord of the Rings (and which also created a LOT of other > material that wasn't nearly as polished or even completed prior to his > passing.) Tolkien supposedly is one of the few people to have actually > created languages wholesale and in such broad fashion. And not just one... > If I remember the count correctly he did High and Low Elven, Dwarvish, > Goblin, Hobbit and a few others I know I'm forgetting... So that's at least > 6 or 7 complete languages with all the vocabulary and grammar and > characters / letters and so on. > > Someone else created the Klingon language for the Star Trek franchise and > that is another complete valid language (more people probably speak it than > Latin these days...) > > So where do these come from... where does someone like Mercedes Lackey pull > up Shin'a'in or Tayledras or Karsite or what have you? Just make it up and > keep a list of words? > > Is there anything out there about how this is done? > > I know... a very broad question but I've always wondered. Partially because > I have trouble learning new "human" languages... let alone make one up. > > Matt Matt asked The short version is simply: How do authors come up with languages? Good question. I don't know how Misty does it, but I've got some ideas I've seen. 1. The whole linguist thing like Tolkein. Actually, one or two courses in linguistics (an absolutely fascinating subject) would probably do the trick. It would teach you "the rules" All human languages have regularized sentence structures (in English, it's Subject-Verb-Object; Yoda, on the other hand, speaks Object-Subject-Verb) affix organization (suffix, prefix, and there's another type that doesn't occur in English in the middle of the word) Decide on an alphabet and the phonetics. All of these don't have to be plucked from the blue, base your new language on an existing or former language. One author I remember hearing based her character's language on Nuahatl, the language of the Aztecs (and still spoken in Mexico) 2. Plunk a whole bunch of made up words together and hope no one looks too close. ;) Cheers! Scott McLoud, owner and operator of The Dreaming, Scott's Book o'Dreams http://www.ac.wwu.edu/~mclouds ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 19:51:50 +1200 (NZST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Sheridan=20Hoy?= To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Books of Three or More... Message-ID: <20010614075150.47452.qmail-+AT+-web11002.mail.yahoo.com> Heyla listsibs, Had to put my penny's worth in. My favourite of all the Misty (Herald) books is the Last Herald Mage trilogy. I also like the Arrows trilogyI am currently reading the first book in a series by Terry Gooodkind. They are fascinating, and I am currently trying to track down the second in the set! Like Li'nia I enjoyed the Belgariad and the Mallorean - he also wrote a stand alone book called The Taming of Athlaus (?sp), which was brillant! Quite sorry to hear that The Captal's Tower is on delay. I can see why authors would like a change, but it is very frustrating. I am currently awaiting the release of the 5th book by Janny Wurts in The War of Light and Shadow series, although I think the second set of three have been called The Alliance of Light. I can think of heaps of other great sets too - anyone out there read The Finovar Tapestry? Bright the day, tamlin _____________________________________________________________________________ http://messenger.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Messenger - Voice chat, mail alerts, stock quotes and favourite news and lots more! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 09:24:39 -0500 From: "Howell, Tommy" To: "'mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk'" Subject: RE: Books of Three or More... Message-ID: <5BA8DB8D54C4D3119956009027DE50C603FE340D-+AT+-tdmnmail.tdmn.belo.com> I just got the 4th & 5th book in Goodkind's Sword of Truth series. So far, they have been page-turners that I cannot easily put down. I think I tore through the first 3 in record time, considering they are over 800 pages each. The only thing I've been confused about is Richard's brother Michael. He seems to be the older brother, but as we learn other things, that seems impossible. (Sorry, not going to spoil it for you) Otherwise, it's a very fast paced story, well told with excellent continuity. Each novel takes place immediately after the last, which means our heroes never get a chance to catch their breath before some other disaster strikes. Tommy -----Original Message----- I am currently reading the first book in a series by Terry Gooodkind. They are fascinating, and I am currently trying to track down the second in the set! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 11:46:29 -0400 (EDT) From: Kenneth Allen Hyde To: Misty Lackey List Subject: Re: From Books of Three to Languages... Message-ID: On Thu, 14 Jun 2001, Matt Neimeyer wrote: > The short version is simply: How do authors come up with languages? Various ways. Most, being non-linguists, just make up a few phrases and try expand from there if it becomes necessary. Others base their languages on existing ones (such as the Celtic languages, or Latin, or somesuch). > For example, from what I remember, The Lord of the Rings came about because > Tolkien was a linguist and decided to invent a language similar to one of > the Nordic tongues. Actually, as far as I know, he started writing the stories first. But being a philologist (he wasn't a linguist, as the term is used now), he did create some extremely interesting languages. As far as I can tell, his Elvish languages don't seem to be based on any of the Northern Germanic languages, but I am not an expert on his languages. If you are interested, there are a number of books published on the subject ("The Languages of Middle-Earth" is the standard reference) and there are probably quite a few web-sites. > Tolkien supposedly is one of the few people to have actually created > languages wholesale and in such broad fashion. Another one is the linguist who created the Klingon language for the Star Trek series. In fact, Klingon is a much more thoroughly developed language than any of Tolkien's languages (Tolkien didn't actually create a very large lexicon for any of his languages). > If I remember the count correctly he did High and Low Elven, Dwarvish, > Goblin, Hobbit and a few others I know I'm forgetting... Rohirric, Adunaic, Dunlending, The Black Speech, and Entish. However, most of these exist as fragments and phrases, rather than as actual languages. For example, the ring inscription is the only example of the Black Speech, we have one or two words from Orcish, the Dwarf battle-cry and place names are the only examples of Dwarvish, and the same goes for Hobbitish, Adunaic, and Rohirric. Come to think of it, I don't know that he ever gives any example of Old Entish (the true language of the Ents). Most of the "Entish" examples are actually Quenya or Sindarin roots strung together (a sort of an Elvish calque for Entish). > Is there anything out there about how this is done? There are several mailing lists and newsgroups for the discussion of Artificial Languages (btw, this term includes languages like Esperanto, as well as the Tolkienesque languages). For what it's worth, I'm considering undertaking a language creation project too. =) I will say this, the "valid" artificial languages are almost always the result of work by a linguist or philologist (whether a professional or an amateur). Most fictional languages are like Shina'a'in and Kaled'a'in: they are fragmentary, not terribly grammaticalized, and not very well-thought-out. Ken Kenneth Allen Hyde | No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife Univ. of Delaware | between the shoulder blades will seriously Dept. of Linguistics | cramp his style -- Old Jhereg proverb kenny-+AT+-Udel.Edu | A mind is a terrible toy to waste! -- Me //www.ling.udel.edu/hyde/prof/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 09:15:31 -0700 (PDT) From: Hank Tiffany To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: RE: Books of Three or More... Message-ID: On Thu, 14 Jun 2001, Howell, Tommy wrote: > I just got the 4th & 5th book in Goodkind's Sword of Truth series. So far, > they have been page-turners that I cannot easily put down. I think I tore > through the first 3 in record time, considering they are over 800 pages > each. I enjoyed the first 3. The 4th & 5th were ok, but the 6th! (Soul of the Fire) In the 6th book his politics, always an underpinning to the stories and becoming more obvious with each book, blossom forth and take over the entire book. It's like reading "Socialism evil, capitalism good." over & over again. I doubt I'll read a 7th book, if there is one. > > The only thing I've been confused about is Richard's brother Michael. He > seems to be the older brother, but as we learn other things, that seems > impossible. (Sorry, not going to spoil it for you) Step brother. > Otherwise, it's a very > fast paced story, well told with excellent continuity. Each novel takes > place immediately after the last, which means our heroes never get a chance > to catch their breath before some other disaster strikes. But there does get to be a sameness about the disasters as the series moves on. Hank ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 11:53:11 -0500 From: "Howell, Tommy" To: "'mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk'" Subject: RE: From Books of Three to Languages... Message-ID: <5BA8DB8D54C4D3119956009027DE50C603FE340E-+AT+-tdmnmail.tdmn.belo.com> A little trivia about the Klingon linguist, Mark Okrand. He was recently tapped by Disney to create the language of Atlantis. The Disney animators really didn't have any idea what a linguist looks like, so the hero in the Atlantis: The Lost Empire has some his distinguishing features. The movie opens tomorrow, June 15 in the US. -----Original Message----- Another one is the linguist who created the Klingon language for the Star Trek series. In fact, Klingon is a much more thoroughly developed language than any of Tolkien's languages (Tolkien didn't actually create a very large lexicon for any of his languages). ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 12:13:24 -0500 From: "tntgray" To: Subject: Re:Misty Languages... Message-ID: <002501c0f4f5$5655c3c0$05563e3f-+AT+-pavilion> Cennydd added to the current discussion: >Most fictional languages are like Shina'a'in and Kaled'a'in: they are > fragmentary, not terribly grammaticalized, and not very well-thought-out. > I was going through something...don't remember what, think it was on the computer..internet...anyway, I ran across a gypsy vocabulary list and I found most of the Shin'a'in words on it. I think then she just altered the words slightly for the other two languages, Talaydres and Kaled'a'in. It you look at it, the Shin'a'in are VERY gypsy-like and are probably the earth group that they are based on, with changes to make them a little unique. My 2 cents. Dax the Eternal, Goddess of Elves and Unicorns, Councilor of Mist, Knight of Fluff Evangelist of Low Humor, Mistic Watcher of Continuity NewbieFest: http://www.ling.udel.edu/hyde/pers/misty/newbiefest.html Zone: http://elfwood.lysator.liu.se/zone47/artists/tiffanie2/tiffanie2.html Loth: http://elfwood.lysator.liu.se/lothlorien/artists/tiffanie/tiffanie.html Library: http://elfwood.lysator.liu.se/library/writers/tiff/tiff.html "Artists (writers) are the people among us who realize creation didn't stop on the sixth day." (Joel Witkin) ------------------------------ End of MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 2612 **********************************