MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 2649 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re: Gwena's return- Companions by "Layla Voll" 2) Re: Serpent's Shadow, some spoilers, some not by "Layla Voll" 3) Re: Gwena's return- Companions by "~*~ Ciara ~*~" 4) Re: Gwena's return- Companions by Matt Neimeyer 5) Re: Gwena's return- Companions by "Layla Voll" 6) Braid about Companions (MOC vs. the others) by Kenneth Allen Hyde 7) Re: Fetching Gifts and Mage Gifts by Matt Neimeyer 8) Re: Gwena's return- Companions by Crystal 9) Re: Gwena's return- Companions by Jen 10) Re: Gwena's return- Companions by Jen 11) Spelling errors that make me foam at the mouth by Jen 12) Other two by Jen 13) Re: quote from Dixon's Vixen Digest for 7/23/01 by =?iso-8859-1?q?Sheridan=20Hoy?= 14) Re: Spelling errors that make me foam at the mouth by Paustinnew-+AT+-aol.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 17:09:57 From: "Layla Voll" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Gwena's return- Companions Message-ID: T Stafford writes: >Someone had mentioned that it didn;t seem fair to the >Monarch's Own that they don't get to experience the >Havens with their Companion since the MOH rotates >among four... >Perhaps the Monarch's Own position also rotates >among four souls, just with out them remembering who >they were. It would explin how the MO seems to "know" >instinctivly how to deal with certain problems... Interesting idea, although I thought the instinctive "knowing" was just the MOC being in the back of your head all the time. However, it seems to me that *nobody* gets to be in the Havens with their Companion all the time, since the former Heralds eventually leave the Havens to become Companions themselves. What I'm not sure about is whether the Companions get reincarnated multiple times, or whether you get one shot as a Herald and one shot as Companion. (I mean, it would be interesting to be a junior Companion at the same time as your old Companion was doing his tenth go-round.) Besides, it's not as if the MO doesn't get to spend any time in the Havens with their Companion: the MOC doesn't seem to get reincarnated immediately, so there's the time between MOC stints. Finally, Talia, at least, does have a lifebond with Dirk, so she won't be totally bereft in the Havens. I don't know about the other MOs, but it also seems to me that the Monarch's Own is someone who, by their very nature and Gifts, touches a lot of people quite deeply, and the Havens are probably one of the first times ever they have to just relax with these people and not be the MO. I mean, I imagine that, with or without Taver, Lancir (MO of the Last Herald Mage series) would look forward to spending some time with Elspeth as *friends*, not as Monarch and Monarch's Own. Oh: someone asked whether the Companions show the same Gifts that they did as Heralds. I don't remember a Companion ever showing any Gift except for MindSpeech (unless Sayvil does magic in the later books that I haven't read). They defintely keep the same personality, though. Layla _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 17:25:22 From: "Layla Voll" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Serpent's Shadow, some spoilers, some not Message-ID: Sarah Scrivano writes: >--- Layla Voll wrote: > > I’d convinced myself a sequel was coming. > >Actually, in the Novels by Mercedes Lackey section of >my Brightly Burning paperback (I just happen to have >with me :)) where all series are grouped together, The >Serpents Shadow is followed by Phoenix and Ashes and >The Gates of Sleep; both with indicators that they are >still forthcoming. Since they were grouped together >instead of listed seperately (a blank line between >each) I would assume that they are part of a series. >I could be wrong though. I hope I'm not. :) I'm *so* glad you said that, because that's *exactly* what I thought when I was looking at that page. However, when I mentioned that on this list previously, someone said that those three books are all just part of the retold fairy tales series, and not specifically part of a Maya/Peter Serpent's Shadow trilogy. and Roxanne Nolan writes: > > now for the spoiler-y parts > > > > > s > > p > > o > > i > > l > > e > > r > > s > > p > > a > > c > > e > > a > > h > > o > > y > > ! > > > > > > On the other hand, I do think there are earlier hints that Shivani > >is overreaching herself and perhaps misinterpreting the will of > Kali >Dugga. She's just a little *too* sure that her way is the > right one, and >a little too obsessed with her own personal > vendettas, even for a devotee >of an admittedly grim and violent > deity. > > > > Layla > >Just curious, but what hints are you referring to? I didn't seem to catch >that at all and would like to know what you caught *S* I'm not going to pretend that I was so foresightful that I predicted it or anything, just that I wasn't surprised. Mostly, it had to do with the fact that, as the book progresses, Shivani becomes increasingly obsessed with her own personal crusade of revenge -- not even the attacks on Englishmen who had served in the Raj, but her total obsession with finding and killing Maya. This starts to be obvious when she kills Simon Parkening, and her narrative voice-over talks about "her crusade," and even says something like, Kali would "have" to approve of her plan. Very much assuming she knows the will of the goddess and it just happens to be hers. The first time we see Kali's eyes closed isn't until Maya wakes up in the temple, so I guess that's the first really overt sign of Kali's displeasure. I looked to see if and when it might have been mentioned earlier, but didn’t even find a mention of the statue (eyes open) until about 100 pages before, after Shivani kills the child prostitute Simon brings her. But that in and of itself is rather telling: early in the book, we often see her down in the temple, while as the book goes on, there is a large stretch where we don't: we mostly see her upstairs in her rooms, talking to the mirror and to her dacoits. Now, we don’t see her 24/7, and she probably visits the statue "off-screen," but it was still a good indicator that she was possibly drifting away from Kali and no longer listening to her. I'm not quite sure *why* Kali is displeased: whether she disapproves of Survani killing her own flesh and blood (unlikely), or killing her own countrywoman when there are so many other, more suitable victims in England; whether a direct attack on Maya forces Kali into the position of also being in direct conflict with the other gods who protect her, something that they don’t apparently like to do; or whether she simply resents Survani being so sure she knows ye the will of the goddess. Layla _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: 23 Jul 2001 17:37:38 -0000 From: "~*~ Ciara ~*~" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Gwena's return- Companions Message-ID: <20010723173738.24514.qmail-+AT+-fancyfeast.chek.com> wrote: >And no, Misty did not make a mistake in having a companion named Rolan in >Brightly Burning. So then was it ment to be the same Rolan as Talia has? that's kinda of creepy. . .but in a way it makes sense. . Does anyone think that Rolan will 'out-live' Talia? to give my own two cents I don't think he will, just because of the bond they have, and the tests that Keren and Talia and Rolan conducted. . .what does everyone think? Sorry so short Sleepy pillow-like sheep to all ~*~ Ciara ~*~ ________________________________________________________________ Get Free Anime Email, News, Links, Forums and Shopping at http://www.AnimeNation.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 14:33:59 -0400 From: Matt Neimeyer To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Gwena's return- Companions Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010723141339.00a938c0-+AT+-ambriel.youth-guard.org> >Oh: someone asked whether the Companions show the same Gifts that they did >as Heralds. I don't remember a Companion ever showing any Gift except for >MindSpeech (unless Sayvil does magic in the later books that I haven't >read). Three examples I can think of... One good and a couple not so good. The Companion that was getting Whipped in the second of the LHM books. Didn't Yfandes say that he was something of a mind-healer (which surprised Vanyel) and that he was a mind-healer because Tashir (?) needed it. This is really the only "pure" non-mindspeech gift I can think of. The not so good ones... Doesn't it come out somewhere in the Mage Storm's series that all companions have a touch of Mage Gift. This would let them pull power for all those twisty companiony things they do. It was also given as a reason why they are white / silver since they naturally tie into the mage currents and end up bleached REAL fast... I seem to remember this came out originally when Elspeth and crew are in the process of Fetching Talia and Gwena and Rolan offer their "pools of energy". With the implicit whatever that they wouldn't have pools of Mage energy to offer if they weren't Mage Gifted to some degree. In another vein, wasn't Yfandes able to shield Vanyel to a degree? This implies to me that she could create Mage shields. I also seem to remember Yfandes saying something to Stephen when they are fleeing the Black Army that's she's doing something like fetching but with herself. Also since the Companions do those sneaky companiony things (like making people forget stuff) I would tend to think that this is an expression of a gift that falls in the realm of some sort of bardic-empathic-telepathic type gift. Since the effects don't seem to be limited to Heralds I don't think this can be chalked off to "wandering around in the heralds heads while they aren't looking". Matt ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 20:01:32 From: "Layla Voll" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Gwena's return- Companions Message-ID: Do the Companions have normal, Herald-like Gifts? Matt writes: >Three examples I can think of... One good and a couple not so good. (summarized) 1) Ghost in "Magic's Promise" being a mind healer, according to Yfandes 2) all Companions seeming to have at least some Mage Gifts, according to Storms, and: >I also seem to remember Yfandes saying something to Stephen when they are >fleeing the Black Army that's she's doing something like fetching but with >herself. That one is really interesting, because I think it *is* just Fetching. Dirk discovers in "Arrows Fall" that someone with a strong Fetching Gift can Fetch themselves, under great duress. It's the reason he feels so guilty about Christa, the internee who dies in the fire -- because he thinks if he'd told her about it, she would have been able to Fetch herself out of harm's way. Also, with regards to Heralds being able to block out Companions: they must be able to do it fairly regularly, because Gala doesn't seem to think it's insanely weird (or impossible) that Tylendal is blocking her after Stavan dies. Likewise, in happier times, she teases Tylendal about letting her "share" when he and Vanyel are together. Actually, it seems as if Heralds and Companions usually block each other out when having sex: Van reminds Yfandes to block him when she's trysting with her boy toy, and at the end of Arrow's Flight, when Cymry and Rolan are together and Talia leaves the campfire, Kris explains to Skif that, unlike most Heralds (like Skif himself, obviously), Talia can't shut Rolan out. Layla _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 19:08:19 -0400 (EDT) From: Kenneth Allen Hyde To: Misty Lackey List Subject: Braid about Companions (MOC vs. the others) Message-ID: Ciara wrote: <> Well, my personal feeling is that if, by some strange circumstance, Talia and Rolan do not die violently at the same time (as seems to be the case with most Herald/Companion pairs [re: Teren's intro lecture in AotQ]), then Rolan will go out and pick a new MOH just as he did when he picked Talia. I think the crucial thing to remember is that Rolan is not human and never has been. He is an entirely different order of creature with an ancient memory (for all we know, he was one of the original Companions, and may have been old then). My personal feeling/opinion from what I've read is that the MOC may be so qualitatively different from other Companions that his bond with his Chosen is equally different. Profound, yet not debilitating if broken. To some extent, I think that Van's worry about being Chosen by the MOC of his time (the name escapes me) suggests that MOC can do things that other Companions cannot (such as shift primary Choosing bonds and the like). Then Layla wrote: [In response to Yfandes doing something "like" fetching] <> Yes, but Fetching is a form of Mind Magic. It appears to be a combination of what we would call psychokinesis and teleportation. Yfandes, being a Companion, would be using mage energy to do normal magic. So it *would* be "like" Fetching, but not real *be* Fetching. The fact that the effect appears to be the same wouldn't mean that the cause/means was the same. >From comparing the Oath books with the Heralds books, it seems clear that Mind Magic and Mage Magic can be used to achieve very similar results in a lot of cases. However, they are not the same things at all (which is partly why the Vrondi don't pay attention to the Valdemaran mind-mages). Cennydd Councilor of Mist Kenneth Allen Hyde | No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife Univ. of Delaware | between the shoulder blades will seriously Dept. of Linguistics | cramp his style -- Old Jhereg proverb kenny-+AT+-Udel.Edu | A mind is a terrible toy to waste! -- Me //www.ling.udel.edu/hyde/prof/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 19:52:58 -0400 From: Matt Neimeyer To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Fetching Gifts and Mage Gifts Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010723193739.00a93d70-+AT+-ambriel.youth-guard.org> >Yes, but Fetching is a form of Mind Magic. It appears to be a combination >of what we would call psychokinesis and teleportation. The way I always thought of it was using the mind to convince an object it "wants" to be somewhere else. If you are really good you can convince it that it doesn't need to travel the space between the two points. >Yfandes, being a Companion, would be using mage energy to do normal magic. >So it *would* be "like" Fetching, but not real *be* Fetching. The fact >that the effect >appears to be the same wouldn't mean that the cause/means was the same. Granted that Mage Magic and Mind Magic are not the same thing. BUT... I got the impression that the major difference is not the effect but the source of power. Vanyel says something about Mage's tainting everything they do with magic. Kethry, I think, also mentioned that a journeyman mage is nigh untraceable because they use only internal energies as well. I read these to mean that for Mages with Mind Magic they draw from their mage energies whereas those that just have Mind Magic or Journeymen Mages use only their internal energies. A very rough parallel (that will probably get smacked around by musicians...): If you play an acoustic guitar it's all coming from inside you. The harder you strum the louder the music is. You can only make it so loud that way. This is like a person with just Mind Magic. On the other hand an Amplified Guitar is like a Mage with Mind Gifts. You spend a little energy to control the volume but then most of it comes from external sources (perhaps that's most like running the guitar off a battery that needs recharging sometimes). Finally you have someone that uses a synthesizer. They can't play an instrument themselves but they are able to make music by using prerecorded snippets. This would be like a pure mage with no mind gifts using spells. Sounds the same but the source is different. And as to the taint of magic you can "hear" the difference between an acoustic guitar and an electric guitar. So you have two methods Spells and Gifts and two power sources Internal and Magic. What this all leads down to is that taking the above I would say that it doesn't matter where the source of the power is that if the Companions are fetching then they are fetching. If it's a spell then it's a spell. I'm leaning towards an actual Fetching type gift. Matt ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 23:34:28 -0400 From: Crystal To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Gwena's return- Companions Message-ID: <3B5CECC3.A19C174F-+AT+-stny.rr.com> If I remember correctly, in the first Arrows of the Queen book, it stated something like ... The Monarch's Own Companion was always the same, unless killed. He never died of old age and would always survive the death of his Herald, unless killed. If the MO Companion's Herald died, the Companion went out looking for another. Or something like that. I had never read the 4 rotating MO Companion story before. I'm curious, where did that come from? Blessings! Crystal ~*~ Ciara ~*~ wrote: > > wrote: > > >And no, Misty did not make a mistake in having a companion named Rolan in > >Brightly Burning. > > > > So then was it ment to be the same Rolan as Talia has? that's kinda of creepy. . .but in a way it makes sense. . Does anyone think that Rolan will 'out-live' Talia? to give my own two cents I don't think he will, just because of the bond they have, and the tests that Keren and Talia and Rolan conducted. . .what does everyone think? Sorry so short > Sleepy pillow-like sheep to all > ~*~ Ciara ~*~ > > ________________________________________________________________ > Get Free Anime Email, News, Links, Forums and Shopping at http://www.AnimeNation.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 00:09:44 -0700 From: Jen To: "Mercedes Lackey Mailing List" Subject: Re: Gwena's return- Companions Message-ID: <20010724070944.11299.qmail-+AT+-venus.postmark.net> However, it seems to me that *nobody* gets to be in the Havens with their Companion all the time, since the former Heralds eventually leave the Havens to become Companions themselves. What I'm not sure about is whether the Companions get reincarnated multiple times, or whether you get one shot as a Herald and one shot as Companion. In one of the books... I'm not sure which, it mentions something about 'how many times you've been around'. (I think Van's ghost says it). That would imply that you could come back as a Compantion multiple times. Also somewhere in the LHM Van says you get three choices when you die as a Herald... you can go to the Havens, come back as a Companion, or come back as a Herald-to-be. (of course Vanyel had another choice- ghost). -The Slightly Lost Newbie, a.k.a. Junipertree ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 00:14:34 -0700 From: Jen To: "Mercedes Lackey Mailing List" Subject: Re: Gwena's return- Companions Message-ID: <20010724071434.14088.qmail-+AT+-venus.postmark.net> I also seem to remember Yfandes saying something to Stephen when they are fleeing the Black Army that's she's doing something like fetching but with herself. That's rather like the Firecats... Altra called it 'Jumping'. And Firecats are reincarnated Sons of the Sun, and Companions are reincarnated Heralds... It follows that they would have some of the same abilities. -Junipertree ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 00:21:39 -0700 From: Jen To: "Mercedes Lackey Mailing List" Subject: Spelling errors that make me foam at the mouth Message-ID: <20010724072139.18139.qmail-+AT+-venus.postmark.net> Excuse me, but it's STEFEN!!!! not stephen. And it's TYLENDEL!!!! not Tylendal. Thank you for letting me pick nits. gotta disconnect juniperward-+AT+-postmark.net ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 00:23:33 -0700 From: Jen To: "Mercedes Lackey Mailing List" Subject: Other two Message-ID: <20010724072333.19091.qmail-+AT+-venus.postmark.net> We've all heard of the four rotating MOCs- Taver, Rolan- but who would the other two be? And if a Companion is Grove-born, but not MOC, then where would he/she come from? gotta disconnect juniperward-+AT+-postmark.net ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 19:56:16 +1200 (NZST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Sheridan=20Hoy?= To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: quote from Dixon's Vixen Digest for 7/23/01 Message-ID: <20010724075616.3291.qmail-+AT+-web11004.mail.yahoo.com> Heyla listsibs, Forgive my ignorance, but could someone please tell me what the Collegium Chronicles are all about? I am fascinated by life in the Collegium and what sort of classes the trainees have - it wouldn't be about that, would it? (Plus it will help me work on my persona, which is slowly taking shape :) Also, my best friend has just lent me her Di Tregarde books, which I am ashamed to say I haven't read it. She did say to read them in a different order from the one they were written in. However, I managed to muddle them up. I have started Children of the Night - is that the "first" one, and which one comes next, because I am really enjoying them and reading at the rate of knots :) Layla said: "Oh: someone asked whether the Companions show the same Gifts that they did as Heralds. I don't remember a Companion ever showing any Gift except for MindSpeech (unless Sayvil does magic in the later books that I haven't read). They defintely keep the same personality, though." I had thought of Tashir and Ghose, but what about Florian? I have been reading Storm Warning again, and Florian went with An'dessa (?sp), Karal, and the Firecat (whose name I have forgotten - apologies) because both the Firecat and Florian could act as Master Mages with Karal as their channel to An'dessa. Bright the Day, tamlin _____________________________________________________________________________ http://messenger.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Messenger - Voice chat, mail alerts, stock quotes and favourite news and lots more! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 09:15:06 EDT From: Paustinnew-+AT+-aol.com To: Subject: Re: Spelling errors that make me foam at the mouth Message-ID: <4b.e939aec.288ecedb-+AT+-aol.com> You say tomato, and I say tohmato. There are a variety of age levels, countries and education levels on this list, and not everyone's spelling or grammar (or English) is going to be completely correct. Frankly, that's one of the things I like about this list, that it attracts people from many different backgrounds. And as for nit picking, would one of the Counselors of Mist please remind everyone about the purpose of braiding, vs. these one and two liners? Nuff said. Pam, who goes by Map ------------------------------ End of MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 2649 **********************************