MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 2671 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re: MERCEDES-LACKEY digest 2670 by "Abigail Laughlin" 2) Re: Velgarth Deities by Matt Neimeyer 3) Re: Velgarth Deities by Sarah Scrivano 4) Re: Velgarth Deities by eliza77-+AT+-webtv.net (eliza) 5) Re: Velgarth Deities by "Barbara Slater" 6) Re: Velgarth Deities by "** MidnightRider **" 7) Re: Velgarth Deities by "Li'nia Stormdancer" 8) Re: Velgarth Deities by "Rebecca McAllister" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 17:17:11 +0000 From: "Abigail Laughlin" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: MERCEDES-LACKEY digest 2670 Message-ID: <> This is a topic that comes up every so often. My take on it is: No. Granted, there are two instances of this-goddess-is-another-face-of-the-Star-Eyed (Kethry's Lady Windborn and the nebulous consort of Vkandis), but for one thing, it'd be too awfully neat and tidy. All the gods in the world boil down to the two patrons of the nations we know and love? Ehhh. Not every plot detail has to be tied off into a pretty bow. The other thing that makes me say no is the comment made in The Oathbound, about the trap Thalkarsh has sprung on Tarma and Kethry--that he is very near to becoming a god, and the gods are forbidden to war amongst themselves. If Thalkarsh knew he could become a god, it stands to reason that something similar has happened in the past. And it doesn't make much sense to me for there to be some Cardinal Law about the gods warring amongst themselves if there are only two of them and they are, at least in some way, consorts. Zha'hai'allav'a, Raven Darkblade and Mor the raven, Holy Hand of the Goddess of Elves, Member of the Mistic Circle, Webmaster of the Circle of Stone, Knight and Founding Member of the Order of Unsung Heroes; http://www.angelfire.com/ky/Ashke/ - The Labyrinth _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 15:05:55 -0400 From: Matt Neimeyer To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Velgarth Deities Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010816145816.00a9c740-+AT+-ambriel.youth-guard.org> >The other thing that makes me say no is the comment made in The Oathbound, >about the trap Thalkarsh has sprung on Tarma and Kethry--that he is very >near to becoming a god, and the gods are forbidden to war amongst >themselves. There is the "standard fantasy rule of godhood"... the more people that believe in you the stronger you become. It would stand to reason then that if you have 100 fanatics versus 100 "regular" believers you'd be stronger. >If Thalkarsh knew he could become a god, it stands to reason >that something similar has happened in the past. Thalkarsh could be reaching that minimum level of belief without needing huge crowds. As to the Star-Eyed and the Vkandis' missing consort, that could be why she moved... Nobody believed in her anymore... so she went to where she was needed. But since she was kind of low on juice she had to use blood sacrifice from the tribes to work up to something as dramatic as healing the plains. It's a little sketchy but it works for me. Not to mention I'm not going to say (and I don't think it would be anyway) that every god in Velgarth boils down to just to two. Only that there are a couple (Vkandis' mate and the Star Eyed being the prime example) that do boil down. >And it doesn't make much sense to me for there to be some Cardinal Law about >the gods warring amongst themselves if there are only two of them and they >are, >at least in some way, consorts. IIRC: We still don't know anything much about the gods in other places like the Land of Black Kings... So there could easily be other gods (and godletts and so on) out there. Matt ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 15:03:09 -0700 (PDT) From: Sarah Scrivano To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Velgarth Deities Message-ID: <20010816220309.14162.qmail-+AT+-web11001.mail.yahoo.com> --- Matt Neimeyer wrote: > Not to mention I'm not going to say (and I don't > think it would be anyway) > that every god in Velgarth boils down to just to > two. Only that there are a > couple (Vkandis' mate and the Star Eyed being the > prime example) that do > boil down. > > Matt Do you then regard what guards Iftel an avatar, godlet, etc? What I get from the series is that it might be an avatar, but it could also be an entirely seperate deity. I kinda disagree with you about how gods/goddesses "boil down" as I have never really been able to reconcile entirely different Goddesses w/each other: for example Morrigau & Aphrodite, if you look at what they represent, do not seem to me to be the same diety. Sarah S. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 22:50:25 -0500 (CDT) From: eliza77-+AT+-webtv.net (eliza) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Velgarth Deities Message-ID: <21708-3B7C9481-380-+AT+-storefull-222.iap.bryant.webtv.net> i got the impression that it was vykandis (sp, i know ) that guarded iftel as well as karse. remember when the gryphon leader met with the Son of the Sun in the last series? there was some dialogue about vykandis guarding both and her being kept out of the loop. as far as deities go, i mean, i think these two are the major ones she's using for this region of the story telling. The empires "100 little gods " were just a simplification of ancestor veneration -- very oriental in concept. just tossing in my muddled two cents worth :) ------------------------------------ "Three things preserve the love of your brother: To greet him with Salaam before he greets you, to allow him enough space where he can sit, and to call him with the dearest name to him." -- Umar ibnul Khattab http://community.webtv.net/eliza77/eliza77 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 07:59:20 -0400 From: "Barbara Slater" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Velgarth Deities Message-ID: Ah'm gonna de-lurk on this one... >From: Matt Neimeyer Subject: Re: Velgarth Deities >Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 20:48:27 +0100 (BST) > > > >As to the Star-Eyed and the Vkandis' missing consort, that could be why she >moved... Nobody believed in her anymore... so she went to where she was >needed. But since she was kind of low on juice she had to use blood >sacrifice from the tribes to work up to something as dramatic as healing >the plains. > >It's a little sketchy but it works for me. > Um...'fraid I've gotta disagree with you on this point, Matt. I don't have the textevd in front of me at the moment (books are hiding behind the box stacks), but IIRC the sacrifice wasn't done to provide Her with power; it was done to prove that the leaders were willing to lay down their lives for their tribe's good and that they were sincere in their need for Her help on this. She already *had* the power, but She didn't want the tribes to get into the habit of whining to Her for help over every little problem. She's the Last Resort, when you can't come up with any other solution, and you've really, *really* honestly tried every other option, and you ask for Her help for others, because you won't be there to benefit from it... Can anyone come up with the textevd on this? DeepRanger **************************************** Bookaholics of the world, UNITE! You have nothing to lose but your ignorance! **************************************** _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 12:02:39 -0500 From: "** MidnightRider **" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Velgarth Deities Message-ID: >From: eliza77-+AT+-webtv.net (eliza) >Reply-To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk >To: greathousec-+AT+-hotmail.com >Subject: Re: Velgarth Deities >Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 05:13:19 +0100 (BST) > >i got the impression that it was vykandis (sp, i know ) that guarded >iftel as well as karse. remember when the gryphon leader met with the >Son of the Sun in the last series? there was some dialogue about >vykandis guarding both and her being kept out of the loop. Now assuming (and we all know what happens when you assume things) that there was a common religion during the Mage Wars of the griffon series. Is it not possible that Vkandis and the Star-eyed are linked together? The people that ended up going north at the end of "Black Griffon" formed Iftel. And Iftel is protected by Vkandis as only Karal was able to work with the barrier because he was a priest of Vkandis. Now those who went south and formed White Griffon split up, with some becoming the Shin'a'nin (sp?) and Hawk brothers who all believed in the Star-Eyed. I just feel that to cross reference today's real life religions that these two (Vkandis and the Star-Eyed) are similar to christianity's Holy Trinity. Just that over time One deity was popularized by the priests of that time over the other deity. And many End-of-the-work-week sheep to all of you. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 10:29:05 -0700 (PDT) From: "Li'nia Stormdancer" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Velgarth Deities Message-ID: <20010817172905.61736.qmail-+AT+-web13808.mail.yahoo.com> Heyla List-Sibs! --- Sarah Scrivano wrote: > Do you then regard what guards Iftel an avatar, > godlet, etc? What I get from the series is that it > might be an avatar, but it could also be an entirely > seperate deity. IIRC, and I don't have any books here at work to textevd, Vkandis of Karse and Vykandys (sp?) of Iftel were one and the same. Which explains why Solaris is so surprised when she finds this out; her God didn't let her know everything he'd done. I think it was also remarked that He had a sense of humor, dragging her all the way out of her lands to find this out for herself (either that or I thought He had a sense of humor!). The reason why He's the God of both lands is explained at the end of the Storm Trilogy, though. > I kinda disagree with you about how gods/goddesses > "boil down" as I have never really been able to > reconcile entirely different Goddesses w/each other: > for example Morrigau & Aphrodite, if you look at > what they represent, do not seem to me to be the same > diety. I agree with you on the different "faces" of deities. Doesn't the Star-Eyed mention several times that She has other aspects? The only ones that come to mind are Kethry with her Lady Wind-Born and when the Star-Eyed was speaking with Roland and Tarma and said they were "children of her Other Self"... She seems to have done different things with different groups of people, and so has Vkandis. I think that the "faces" of these dieties are each their own self... 'Cause I'm just thinking, if Kethry saw the Lady Wind-Born, would she see the Star-Eyed? Or if Valdemarians saw their Goddess (I have no idea what she's called there, but she obviously has some followers), what would they see? And I doubt that the "face" that Vykandys shows is the same as Vkandis. I think they'd see the Being that their religion was founded on... Am I making any sense here??? lol I guess what I'm trying to say is, there's only as many dieties as there are believers, and with us humans, there tend to be quite a few. >DeepRanger wrote: >She already *had* the power, but She didn't >want the tribes to get into the habit of whining to >Her for help over every little problem. She's the >Last Resort, when you can't come up with any other >solution, and you've really, *really* honestly tried >every other option, and you ask for Her help for >others, because you won't be there to benefit from >it... GAH! Wish I could help with this one, but I don't have my books here. I DO know that it's mentioned several times in the Oath books, though. Usually just when Tarma was about to do something drastic... lol ===== ---<---<---<----+AT+- Li'nia Stormdancer -+AT+---->--->--->--- Peon to the Powers That Be, Goddess of All Things Possessed, & Caretaker of the Arena of Discussion and Dissention __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 17:49:02 From: "Rebecca McAllister" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Velgarth Deities Message-ID: Hey everyone. I just couldn't stay outta this one. Sarah said: >i got the impression that it was vykandis (sp, i know ) that guarded >iftel as well as karse. remember when the gryphon leader met with the >Son of the Sun in the last series? there was some dialogue about >vykandis guarding both and her being kept out of the loop. > This was, in fact, the reason that Karal was aloud to cross the border into Iftel. Because the God Recognized him. I forget the Gods actual name, but is is very similar to Vykandis. It makes it very obvious that it is indeed the same god. I believe that, as Sarah said, the books actually out and say that it is the same god, but I can't find my books at this moment. As for the Star-Eyed/Vykandes connection, i think that the Star-Eyed could be Vykandes's ex-consort, I don't think that they are the Twins of Valdemar. I think that would just be too neatly tied up with a bow. Here is another thought. Are the Twins of Valdemar the same Twins from Needs time? I think that there was 2 sets of twins in Needs story, but maybe one of them is Valdemars twins. hhhmmmmmm... Becca _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ End of MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 2671 **********************************