MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 2674 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) bardic gift and other questions sparked by brightly burning by "Hill, Susan" 2) Re: bardic gift and other questions sparked by brightly burning by "Layla Voll" 3) Re: bardic gift and other questions sparked by brightly burning by Beckyrgreen-+AT+-aol.com 4) Re: Velgarth Deities by "Barbara Slater" 5) RE: bardic gift and other questions sparked by brightly burning by Bonnie Robb 6) BB Spoiler (Sort of)One Liner by "Rebecca McAllister" 7) Re: BB Spoiler (Sort of)One Liner by Beckyrgreen-+AT+-aol.com 8) Re: BB Spoiler (Sort of)One Liner by "Molly McAllister" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 08:53:29 -0700 From: "Hill, Susan" To: "'mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk'" Subject: bardic gift and other questions sparked by brightly burning Message-ID: <872A9D7CC09CD11188CE00805FBB042E0A364423-+AT+-emswwc7.weyer.com> Hey all! I'm rereading Brightly Burning and I've got two major questions... In it, there's discussion (alot!) about the Collegia and students - back in Magic's Price, Van talks to Stefan about using his gift for personal gain and there's some comment about "if you do that, we'll have you blocked. You'll loose your gift." (sorry, no text ev available whilst travelling!) I assumed at the time that meant the mages would do something to block the Bard's "channel" per se. Now, with no mages in Valdemar, who's keeping the bad-bards honest? I mean, the Heralds have the companions to keep them honest, the healers are all crazy with healing folks anyway, but I always got from the Magic series that of the three, the bards were the most "like ordinary folk" and susceptible to self motivated behavior... So do we have dishonest, power hungry bards? Ones that would not have existed in the Vanyel Valdemar? It would certainly seem like it in Talia's time when she butts heads against the bard on the Council. I'd be interested in tracking the evolution of the "Bardic Vocation" from Vanyel's to "present day" Valdemar. I suspect a gradual corruption began.... not that there wasn't corruption to begin with, but at least there was a "Threat" of punishment for unethical behavior that would be lasting and detrimental to the Bard. Okay. That question done. Next question - in BB, there's continual "We're not going to have another Gala problem" theme in there - with some interesting perspective about who was really responsible - Tylendel for not being honest, Gala for not helping, etc... we KNOW Tylendel came back to "undo" some of the wrongs, but given that we know the whole reincarnation theme with Companions and Heralds, did Gala come back for another try??? And if so, it must have been a doozy... I suspect, (and it would take Misty to confirm) that Lan's companion, Kalira, is Gala, maybe??? I mean, having to control a firestarter can't be easy, and being lifebonded may have been the only thing to control him, and she certainly died an ugly death.... The Kalira theory might explain why Rolan felt it necessary to check up on her choice of Herald - perhaps he knew her judgement had been flawed in the past, or that she could be overcompensating by being TOO defensive of an unbalanced Herald because she didn't do enough last time. I think we have to assume Gala was reincarnated eventually?? And given her history, it makes sense that she would have had a bit to make up for, if you assume she didn't do enough for Tylendel. So I just thought perhaps this is her chance to balance the past.... Any thoughts? -Susan ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 18:00:55 From: "Layla Voll" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: bardic gift and other questions sparked by brightly burning Message-ID: Susan Hill writes: >I'm rereading Brightly Burning and I've got two major questions... ** no Brightly Burning content yet ** >In it, there's discussion (alot!) about the Collegia and students - back in >Magic's Price, Van talks to Stefan about using his gift for personal gain >and there's some comment about "if you do that, we'll have you blocked. >You'll loose your gift." (sorry, no text ev available whilst travelling!) I >assumed at the time that meant the mages would do something to block the >Bard's "channel" per se. > >Now, with no mages in Valdemar, who's keeping the bad-bards honest? Van also mentions blocking the Bardic Gift to Medran, his nephew, and I got the sense from that that it was something that the Bards themselves could take care of, and the mages wouldn't have been necessary. But I don't have the book here -- I just thought Van said something like, "you'd go to the Bardic Collegium and they would block your Gift," not "I, as the premier Herald-Mage, would block your Gift," which he could, if it were a mage thing. >I mean, the Heralds have the companions to keep them honest, the healers >are all crazy with healing folks anyway, but I always got from the Magic >series that of the three, the bards were the most "like ordinary folk" and >susceptible to self motivated behavior... Just the fact that LHM has Vanyel having to warn two perfectly nice people about misusing the Bardic Gift might imply that Bards are more susceptible. Or perhaps that it's harder to draw lines -- it's easy to know when you're misusing your Fetching Gift to steal something, but it might be harder, especially for a kid, to figure out the difference between simply being persuasive and actually using the Gift. >So do we have dishonest, power hungry bards? Ones that would not have >existed in the Vanyel Valdemar? It would certainly seem like it in Talia's >time when she butts heads against the bard on the Council. Although the Bard on Talia's Council (Hyron, I think) is more misguided than evil -- when Orthallen's treachery is revealed, he immediately volunteers to be Truth Spelled about his intentions, and he does redeem himself later in battle by remembering how to kill mages and telling Griffon what would have to be done. So I don't think he was dishonest so much as gullible and easily persuaded. Besides, I don't think he was ever accused of misusing his Gift, by trying to persuade the Council to follow Orthallen, for instance. And, if I remember "Arrows of the Queen" correctly, Sherrill tells Talia that she ought to be able to trust the Bardic and the Healing students as well as her fellow Trainees: it's the Blues she needs to look out for. So I don't think the Bards had slipped too badly into corruption by Talia's time. >I'd be interested in tracking the evolution of the "Bardic Vocation" from >Vanyel's to "present day" Valdemar. I suspect a gradual corruption >began.... not that there wasn't corruption to begin with, but at least >there was a "Threat" of punishment for unethical behavior that would be >lasting and detrimental to the Bard. I'd be interested in general: "Magic's Pawn" has a whole bit about how one needed two out of three Bardic qualities -- Talent, the Gift, and Creativity. The distictions seem to have gotten sort of lost by Talia's time, as Jadus and Elcarth seem to use Gift and Talent sort of interchangably (Jadus when he first meets Talia; Elcarth in the Gifts class). Whether that's simply non-Bards being careless with the terminology or whether the Bardic sciences are less defined, I'm not sure. I've also been curious: Jadus says he thought he caught a hint of Talent when Talia was talking to him. But in "Magic's Promise," Medran seems to have to play the harp in the background to make his voice Bardically persuasive. Does a plain speaking voice carry the Bardic Gift, or does it need music? >Okay. That question done. And now there's some BB content, and I think I'm going to add spoiler space, just because I forget whether BB is still spoilered... s p a c e f o r r e n t >Next question - in BB, there's continual "We're not going to have another >Gala problem" theme in there - with some interesting perspective about who >was really responsible - Tylendel for not being honest, Gala for not >helping, etc... we KNOW Tylendel came back to "undo" some of the wrongs, >but given that we know the whole reincarnation theme with Companions and >Heralds, did Gala come back for another try??? > >And if so, it must have been a doozy... I suspect, (and it would take Misty >to confirm) that Lan's companion, Kalira, is Gala, maybe??? >The Kalira theory might explain why Rolan felt it necessary to check up on >her choice of Herald - perhaps he knew her judgement had been flawed in the >past, or that she could be overcompensating by being TOO defensive of an >unbalanced Herald because she didn't do enough last time. Wow -- I think that's a really nifty idea, and entirely possible. For one thing, the Companions do seem to reincarnate, and one would think that Gala would want to try to atone in some way. But we also know that she doesn't reincarnate as part of the continuing Vanyel - Yfandes - Tylendel - Stefan loop. I also agree with you that the other Companions, especially Rolan, seem to be keeping an especially careful eye on Kalira's Choosing: it makes sense, given the circumstances of the Choosing, given that Lan is slightly unbalanced and will need very careful guidance, and given that Kalira appears to be rather young, but it *really* makes sense if she's the one Companion famous for screwing up a tricky Choosing. Finally, I think they're even described in the same way: when Vanyel first meets Gala, he says that he has the impression of a young, pretty, rather coquettish girl, which also describes Kalira. The difference in names doesn't bother me. There's no sense that the Companions are giving their Chosen some sort of magical True Name, so I imagine she could call herself anything she liked. Layla _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 15:46:31 EDT From: Beckyrgreen-+AT+-aol.com To: Subject: Re: bardic gift and other questions sparked by brightly burning Message-ID: "There's no sense that the Companions are giving their Chosen some sort of magical True Name, so I imagine she could call herself anything she liked." In fact, IIRC, it says somewhere in the Talia books (I think) that most Companions either choose to give their Herald their name, or let their Herald pick one for them...again IIRC, the only exception is the Kings/Queens Own's Companion, who always tells his/her Herald his name...Small amount of spoiler spaceon BB... s p o i l e r Kalira=Gala - what a cool idea :). Personally, what fascinated me was that Rolan was around in both this and the Arrows books...He must have picked an unusually quiet period, since both Heralds and Companions tend to have a relatively short lifespan...Unless I've missed something and the two books are close in time, or Rolan is a kind of hereditary name... Cheers, Becky Green. .. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 16:08:21 -0400 From: "Barbara Slater" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Velgarth Deities Message-ID: Thanks for the textevd, Layla - I'd forgotten that Quenten described the blood magic of the shamans that way. Ah'm definitely gonna have to unbury my books and start going through them again... DeepRanger **************************************** Bookaholics of the world, UNITE! You have nothing to lose but your ignorance! **************************************** >From: "Layla Voll" >Subject: Re: Velgarth Deities > >DeepRanger wrote: > > > >I think Quenten explains it to Skif in the first Winds book, >when he's talking about blood magic. When Skif and Elspeth >appear at his school, he talks to Skif about how Elspeth's raw, >untrained power will attract mages like moths to a flame, and he talks >about how an unscrupulous mage would be drooling over the chance to use her >for blood magic rituals. But then he >also adds the caveat that not all blood magic is bad: that the shamans of >the Kal'en'dral practice it, and sacrifice themselves >for the tribe in times of great need. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 13:27:34 -0700 From: Bonnie Robb To: "'mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk'" Subject: RE: bardic gift and other questions sparked by brightly burning Message-ID: <34E0730F2DE6E64A92B68D9F1B68D1A4C79698-+AT+-exchg1.corp.p4pnet.net> > -----Original Message----- > From: Beckyrgreen-+AT+-aol.com [mailto:Beckyrgreen-+AT+-aol.com] > Sent: Monday, August 20, 2001 1:10 PM > To: bonnie-+AT+-goto.com > Subject: Re: bardic gift and other questions sparked by > brightly burning > > > "There's no sense that the > Companions are giving their Chosen some sort of magical True > Name, so I > imagine she could call herself anything she liked." > > In fact, IIRC, it says somewhere in the Talia books (I think) > that most > Companions either choose to give their Herald their name, or let their > Herald pick one for them...again IIRC, the only exception is the > Kings/Queens Own's Companion, who always tells his/her Herald his > name...Small amount of spoiler spaceon BB... > > > > s > p > o > i > l > e > r > > > Kalira=Gala - what a cool idea :). Personally, what > fascinated me was that > Rolan was around in both this and the Arrows books...He must > have picked an > unusually quiet period, since both Heralds and Companions > tend to have a > relatively short lifespan...Unless I've missed something and > the two books > are close in time, or Rolan is a kind of hereditary name... > I think its the same Rolan! Recall some mention of Grove-born Companions having an immense lifespan, and when he Chooses Talia someone mentions that he has been around for a while. I remember doing the A-Ha about that when I read BB a while ago. Bonnie ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 21:23:41 From: "Rebecca McAllister" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: BB Spoiler (Sort of)One Liner Message-ID: > > From: Beckyrgreen-+AT+-aol.com [mailto:Beckyrgreen-+AT+-aol.com] ...Small amount of spoiler spaceon BB... > > > > > > > > s > > p > > o > > i > > l > > e > > r > > > > Rolan was around in both this and the Arrows books...He must > > have picked an > > unusually quiet period, since both Heralds and Companions > > tend to have a > > relatively short lifespan...Unless I've missed something and > > the two books > > are close in time, or Rolan is a kind of hereditary name... > > > It is indeed the same Rolan, but not the same incarnation. There are four(I think) different Monarch's Own Companions, and they rotate through different incarnations. Sorry for the one-liner Becca _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 19:10:59 EDT From: Beckyrgreen-+AT+-aol.com To: Subject: Re: BB Spoiler (Sort of)One Liner Message-ID: "It is indeed the same Rolan, but not the same incarnation. There are four(I think) different Monarch's Own Companions, and they rotate through different incarnations." Apologies for the short post, but I have to ask...where did you find that out? What have I missed :). Cheers, Becky Green. .. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 00:06:40 +0000 From: "Molly McAllister" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: BB Spoiler (Sort of)One Liner Message-ID: Heyla all, just thought I wold put in my two cents, >From: Beckyrgreen-+AT+-aol.com >>"It is indeed the same Rolan, but not the same incarnation. There are >>four(I >>think) different Monarch's Own Companions, and they rotate through >>different >>incarnations." > >Apologies for the short post, but I have to ask...where did you find that >out? What have I missed :). We had this very same discussion about a month ago, where the same thing was brought up. Someone mentionned that Misty had said something to this effect in some forum, and Paul, Misty's Secretary confirmed it (or he was the orginal source, I can't remember which) I apologize for the short post, but my new classes just started to day and I am a little fried from a long day of biology, sigh. Strawberry Shortcake Sheep to all, Zhai'hellava, Starshadow* She'enedra to Lightsong, Royal Defender of the Brat _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ End of MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 2674 **********************************