MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 30 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re: other books - Soap box ahead on K. Arthur - long by "Lisa" 2) Re: MERCEDES-LACKEY digest 28 by "Tarja Rainio" 3) Re: other bo by terryg-+AT+-blade.com 4) What I like about Misty's writing, questions, possible spoilers by "Jennifer S. Broekman" 5) Black Gryphon by Ilta Tuulia Adler 6) Re: Black Gryphon by Scya-+AT+-aol.com 7) Re: Black Gryphon by Ian 8) Re: other bo by mel (Melanie Dymond Harper) 9) REVIEW: "Reap the Whirlwind" by mel (Melanie Dymond Harper) 10) ADMIN: reminder by mel (Melanie Dymond Harper) 11) Various things in Digest 27 by p.m.lynch.bra0125-+AT+-oasis.icl.co.uk 12) Re: Black Gryphon by "Jennifer S. Broekman" 13) Re: Other books by DonnaG4650-+AT+-aol.com 14) Authors/Movies by RUNDLE-+AT+-wilma.bcasd.az.honeywell.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 29 May 1995 09:58:58 EST From: "Lisa" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: other books - Soap box ahead on K. Arthur - long Message-ID: Tamra writes:[snip] > The Mists of Avolon is my first journey into a book long enough to > be daunting....Anyway what do people think of how she's [MZB] > turned all the traditional characters upside down. This is my > first Arthurian alternative novel so its still sinking in that > Gwen was a overly-pious cowardly twit and Morgaine wasn't the > despicable evil witch of the tales I've heard MZB does a wonderful job of re-telling a story from a different point of view (POV). (Try Firebrand about Cassandra of Troy by MZB, also Parke Godwin's Firelord & Beloved Exile - lots of historical stuff). All of these are long books, but good character development and their historical content is wonderful. CAUTION: SOAPBOX AHEAD Most of the tales surrounding Arthur or other romantic heroes have the women as evil witches or as frail flowers in need of protection. Morgaine is evil from the start, and Guineviere becomes that way. You know...the woman who listens to her emotions and passions rather than her common sense always ends up making trouble. (Gee, can we say influence of the early Catholic Church in supressing women on this one folks. I'm allowed to do derail the Church - I was raised Catholic.). Actually, Arthur supposedly lived about the 6th or 7th centuries in Wales (no Church presence!). All this stuff with Lancelot, courtly love and betrayal didn't even exist in the literature until the 12th century in France. It dove-tailed from there to what we have today. The earliest known mention of Arthur is in the Mabinogian (a collection of Welsh Tales) and no mention is made of Gwen's betrayal. Most of these legends are told from the male POV (No, I'm not harping on the male gender; it's just a fact of history). Of course these stories are going to make the male sound wonderful and the women either horrible or frail and in need of protection. It was a metaphor during the times they were written for men to keep women at home and on a short tether. Their deceiving, beguiling ways (i.e. Morgaine) or their pentiant for letting their emotions dictate what they would do (i.e. Guineviere) were lessons in the havoc women could cause and how men must guard against them. Okay I'm off the Saopbox. Sorry about that. Anyway, to get back to the subject of different twists on stories (yes, that was the original intent of this post). MZB does a fantastic job of protraying the same story we've heard since we were babies from a woman's POV. She and other authors (Roberson does this in Lady of the Forest, but not to the same extent IMHO) look beyond the common telling and try to look at the historical situation. Mists of Avalon is case and point. One reason I like Misty's books is that the female characters are just as strong as the men and are just as complex (Kerowyn, Tarma, Kethry, Selenay). I grew up on the male story lines and I love a good adventure (skip the romance), but I'm always glad to read a book where the female is more than just a sniveling, whiner with one dimension. Lisa P.S. Put Tanya Huff on the list of authors to read. Mix some foolishness with the serious stuff: It's good to be silly at the right time ---- Horace ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Lisa M. Ramirez ~ ramirez-+AT+-estuary.amrl.odu.edu Applied Marine Research Laboratory ~ Lab: (804) 683-3498 1034 W. 45th St. ~ FAX: (804) 683-5293 Norfolk, VA 23529 ~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 May 1995 18:17:55 EET DST From: "Tarja Rainio" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: MERCEDES-LACKEY digest 28 Message-ID: <18EAC37F79-+AT+-katk.helsinki.fi> There seem to be a lot of my favourites on yourlists, so here are some comments: "Jean Valentine-Gaddis" writes: >And one of my very favorites, Lois McMasters Bujold >series set on and around Bayarror (sp?) about the >VorKosigan family. She's (?) completed around 10 >books set in that universe. I recommend reading them >in cronological (sp?) order. Begining with _Shards of >Honor_ . I agree with you about Lois Bujold's books, they're great (besides, I just finished _Mirror Dance_ the latest in the series that's available in paperback). But if you really want to start from the pre-history of that world, read _Falling Free_ first. It's set some thousands of years before the rest of the books. Anne Cross writes: >I wondered if anyone was going to mention Narnia. :) It's what corrupted >me originally too. Okay: My list of books that ought to be in there: > >Narnia -- C.S. Lewis >Pern -- Anne McCaffrey >The Dark Is Rising series -- Susan Cooper >Damar/Daria -- Robin McKinley >Dealing/Searching/Calling/Talking to Dragons -- Patricia C. Wrede I love all Pat Wrede's books. I think most would categorize her works as children's lit. or juveniles, but who cares. They're good =). >Strands of Starlight (et all) -- Gael Baudino >The Dragon Reborn (et all) -- Robert Jordan IMHO, this series can sometimes get a bit overwhelming and you just wonder "how many books is he going to write to this series???" Still, I'm hooked. >Lord of the Rings -- J.R.R. Tolkein (Just because I don't like him > doesn't mean I don't think it should on the list.) Scya-+AT+-aol.com writes: >Patricia McKillip : Riddlemaster of Hed Trilogy & Forgotten Beasts of Eld - >both have outstanding character development > >Guy Gavriel Kay : Fionavar Tapestry Trilogy and Tigana - Tigana especially >for imagining someone cursing your people by making everyone forget they >exist - can't remember their history. I love "Riddlemaster of Hed" and "Fionavar Tapestry". They are both so sad and beautiful. I don't remember if Diana Wynne Jones has been mentioned? _Charmed Life_ was my first book by her and after that I've tried to find as many of her books as possible (I think I have now a fairly comprehensive collection =)). How about Marion Zimmer Bradley? Some of the books in the "Darkover" series could be said to be fantasy. I think some of them are great (_Thendara House_ for example) and some not so great ;). Also, I agree with Iris (?) that Raymond Feist is worth a look. My 1.00 FIM Tarja ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 May 1995 09:34:45 -0400 From: terryg-+AT+-blade.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: other bo Message-ID: <9505291334.0J2RI00-+AT+-blade.com> While reading through my messages, I thought of another author who used some form of "Mind Magic". Tanith Lee used it in her series "The Wars of Vis". Also while we're on the subject of other books, what does evryone think of the "Forgotten Realms" series put out by TSR industries and their writers? (i.e. Troy Denning, R.A. Salvatore, Ed Greenwood etc) Terry Toronto, Canada ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 May 1995 21:39:13 -0400 From: "Jennifer S. Broekman" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: What I like about Misty's writing, questions, possible spoilers Message-ID: <199505300139.VAA15807-+AT+-sparky.phast.umass.edu> Possible spoilers about _Storm Warning_ and _The White Gryphon_... Lisa wrote: >One reason I like Misty's books is that the female characters are >just as strong as the men and are just as complex (Kerowyn, Tarma, >Kethry, Selenay). I grew up on the male story lines and I love a good >adventure (skip the romance), but I'm always glad to read a book >where the female is more than just a sniveling, whiner with one >dimension. Agreed! Misty manages to make both genders, all sexual orientations, and (with _The White Gryphon_) all races multidimensional. Distinctly refreshing compared to, say, Asimov... Another aspect that intrigues me is Misty's treatment of deities. Can anyone tell me if the nausea Karal feels upon watching An'desha build a Gate is something felt by all the God-Touched? Or is this specific to Vkandis's true Priests? Specifically, is there ever any mention of how the Kaled'a'in shaman feel about Gates? Finally, does anyone else desparately hope that the similarity between "Kalanel" (Vkandis's consort) and "Kal'enel" (the Warrior) *doesn't* mean that Misty intends to resolve the 'conflict' of having more than one True God by making the two related? Anyway, enough for now... -jenneke I *am* family. How could I not have family values? Only Boys Accepting Feminism Get Kissed Meaningfully -- Geoff Marcy The only unnatural sexual act is that which you cannot perform. -Alfred Kinsey broekman-+AT+-sparky.phast.umass.edu | http://www-astro.phast.umass.edu/gs/jenn.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 May 1995 21:36:21 -0400 (EDT) From: Ilta Tuulia Adler To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Black Gryphon Message-ID: I'm not sure if my memory is just failing or what, but what and/or who are hertasi. This is the first I ever seem to have come accross this spiecies. (Sorry but I really can't spell) I'm going to visit mom soon and I believe she has most of Misty's books so even a reference as to where to look would be helpful. Thanks Ilta -------------------------------------------------------------- Mashrooms taste good on burgers, but they won't raise the dead -------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 May 1995 00:49:59 -0400 From: Scya-+AT+-aol.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Black Gryphon Message-ID: <950530004958_17235034-+AT+-aol.com> I was just recently reading books again for research info and I believe the description of the hertasi is in the Last Herald-Mage series - which book I forget but it is a Bird-like human. The one I distinctly remember was a woman that Vanyel met when young and just learning from the Tayledras. Hope this helps. Scya-+AT+-aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 May 95 08:56:04 BST From: Ian To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-VANYEL.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Black Gryphon Message-ID: Scya-+AT+-com.aol wrote: >I was just recently reading books again for research info and I believe the >description of the hertasi is in the Last Herald-Mage series - which book I >forget but it is a Bird-like human. The one I distinctly remember was a >woman that Vanyel met when young and just learning from the Tayledras. Hope >this helps. No, you're thinking of the Tervardi - "a sort of flightless bird-woman" is the description given...the hertasi are little (though not _so_ little) lizards that serve the Tayledras in _Magic's Pawn_ (and also the Kaled'a'in in _The Black Gryphon_). Ian. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 May 1995 09:46:55 +0100 From: mel (Melanie Dymond Harper) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: other bo Message-ID: <9505300846.AA24942-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk> > Also while we're on the subject of other books, what does evryone think of > the "Forgotten Realms" series put out by TSR industries and their writers? > (i.e. Troy Denning, R.A. Salvatore, Ed Greenwood etc) > I'm sorry, I've tried - I _have_ tried - to read the stuff that TSR puts out, but I just can't deal with it for more than a couple of chapters. I don't really know why this should be, but it's true. It may just be a built-in dislike of novels linked to (and postdating) a particular game background, because I find the same problem with White Wolf's books, and indeed with the couple of pages I managed to read of one of WotC's tie-ins with Magic: The Obsession .... Mel. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 May 1995 11:13:38 +0100 From: mel (Melanie Dymond Harper) To: mercedes-lackey Subject: REVIEW: "Reap the Whirlwind" Message-ID: <9505301013.AA26081-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk> I found this one (along with a mint-condition copy of "Children of the Night" to replace my copy, which looks as though the cat ate it) at a charity stall this weekend, so I thought I'd do a review to encourage y'all. :) -- M. =============================================================================== C.J.Cherryh & Mercedes Lackey - "Reap the Whirlwind" (_Sword of Knowledge_ #3) Although I admit to not being familiar with the _Sword of Knowledge_ background, I found it hard to spot any obvious Cherryh influence within this book. Admittedly, within any collaboration, it should be hard -- preferably impossible -- to spot the joins, but this novel appears to have none. It reads as pure Lackey, rather than the Lackey/other author mix as found in (for example) the SERRAted edge books; it's possible that this is because it was written earlier in her career (1989) so that she was less pushed for time than in some of her later works. It is set (according to the blurb) 500 years after _Wizard Spawn_, which was #2 in the _Sword of Knowledge_ series. The Order of the Sword of Knowledge, a quasi-religious order dedicated to the preservation and dissemination of knowledge of all kinds, has found a safe haven in an isolated valley between two kingdoms. Their peaceful existence is shattered by an invading tribe of horse nomads -- more Mongol than Shin'a'in -- who have been forced to leave their lands because of severe drought and deteriorating relationships with neighbouring tribes. Felaras, Master of the Order, and Jegrai, clan chief of the nomads, are both facing leadership challenges from within. Both need to come to a respectable compromise; Felaras knows that her Order cannot leave without losing many of its members on the journey, and Jegrai knows that his tribe cannot advance further without meeting the forces of one of the neighbouring kingdoms, and that to retreat would mean death at the hands of the tribe which has already killed many of his people. Felaras is a realistically-described leader, worried about her people and her choice of successor. Jegrai is also well-described, but suffers because some of the more important nomads are less well-drawn; we have a good idea of the motivations of those around Felaras, but only the five closest to Jegrai are described in any depth. When Felaras is challenged, we have a good idea of the person who will be behind it, and their reasons for doing so, whereas the challenge to Jegrai comes almost out of thin air. Both major characters do, however, have some interesting dilemmas to solve. I would recommend this book, especially to those who are worried about the quality of other Lackey collaborations (although, as I noted above, it does not read as though it were a collaboration at all). Felaras reminds me of an aging Diana Tregarde, with a little more help than Di usually has. MDH 28/5/95 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 May 1995 12:57:16 +0100 From: mel (Melanie Dymond Harper) To: mercedes-lackey Subject: ADMIN: reminder Message-ID: <9505301157.AA27103-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk> Just a quick reminder, caused by a sudden increase in messages to the listproc about bounced/waiting mail. If you are going to be losing access, either over the summer or more permanently, _please_ either unsubscribe or set yourself to POSTPONE (see recently posted FAQ for more details) before you do so. This applies especially to people whose systems don't just bounce the mail, but "attempt to deliver it" for several days before eventually giving up; this means that I get a _lot_ more messages about it. If you find yourself about to go offline very suddenly, and you don't have time to send an unsub message and wait for a reply, send me mail (personally, not to the list) instead, and I will do the unsubscribe by hand. Note that this should be reserved for emergencies! Cheers Mel. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 May 95 13:41:27 BST From: p.m.lynch.bra0125-+AT+-oasis.icl.co.uk To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Various things in Digest 27 Message-ID: <9505301241.AA01741-+AT+-getafix.oasis.icl.co.uk> Hi, I've been following this list for a while but have not posted before. I'm Tricia Lynch, working for ICL in Bracknell in the UK. I read Mercedes Lackey, Anne McCaffrey and various other fantasy authors. Other interests: Cooking (you'll see me occasionally on rec.food.cooking if you visit there), Horse Riding, and studying for a part-time MBA. Quote: from Anne Cross in Digest 27: >I can't read Tolkein, and I've tried. (Ducks as a large overripe fruit >sails over her head.) I like Robert Jordan, although I've been told by >some people that he's stolen a lot from Tolkein. I can live with >Shanarra, but after the first two books, I get sort of bored. Sigh. I >like Allanon, but the rest of them... I have yet to read Eddings. How >about Stephen R. Donaldson? The Chonicles of Thomas Covenant? > > Anne Cross > across-+AT+-sidwell.edu I found Thomas Covenant really odd. I couldn't put them down once I started, but didn't really enjoy them and had no desire to reread them again later. I also found they left a bad taste in my mouth, and left me feeling depressed rather than uplifted. I'm an unashamed seeker after happy endings though - or at least a tidy resolution with hope for the future. I do enjoy Tolkein - if you want to try again, The Hobbit is an easier starting point than Lord of the Rings itself. I found The Silmarillion et al tough going though - my desire for happy endings again probably. I find I have to change mental gears for Tolkein - he works at the same pace as Trollope and Jane Austen and Dickens, not the pace of more modern fantasy. If you have time to let the story develop, you can appreciate the grace touches better though - the texture of his books is finer. This is not to denigrate other authors, just a comment on the difference as I see it. Quote: >From: Alden Strock >What do people think of the Pern series by Anne McCaffrey? How about >"Black Trillium" by MZB, Andre Norton and Julian May? >RAR I thoroughly enjoy the Pern books, and have yet to find a book by Anne McCaffrey which I have not liked (though there have been a few marginal ones!) I also like her non-fantasy novels, and her non-Pern fantasy. I've not read "Black Trillium", but have enjoyed MZB's Darkover books, and the book of short stories about Lythande (the magician character she created for the Thieve's World collections). I was disappointed not to enjoy her Arthurian one "Mists of Avalon", but may retry it sometime. Quote: >From: harkerii-+AT+-ix.netcom.com (John Edwards ) >Subject: Re: Other Books > I just started on Eddings' Belgariad series (it's wonderful to be >able to read an entire series without waiting a full year in between >books ) and so far it's pretty good. > Has anyone else on the list read CS Lewis' Chronicles of Narnia? >These were the books that started me reading waaaay back in 4th or 5th >grade. Yes, I read the Narnia books when I was about 10 years old, and have gone back to them occasionally since. I also read his "adult" fantasies, but they were less fun. If you are interested, there was a series of three, as I recall: "Out of the Silent Planet", "Perelandra" and I can't recall the name of the third. Like Narnia they used analogy to present the central themes of the Christian doctrine, but unlike Narnia it felt forced and rather heavy handed. In fact, I enjoyed his straightforward Christian texts like "The Screwtape Letters" and "Screwtape Proposes a Toast" much more. I'm a Christian myself, but the ironic observation of human nature would be just as good if you had no interest in the doctrinal messages. I have also enjoyed the Belgariad, the Malloreon and the Elenium. Tricia Lynch ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 May 1995 09:22:34 -0400 From: "Jennifer S. Broekman" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Black Gryphon Message-ID: <199505301322.JAA15984-+AT+-sparky.phast.umass.edu> Ian wrote: >Scya-+AT+-com.aol wrote: >>I was just recently reading books again for research info and I believe the >>description of the hertasi is in the Last Herald-Mage series - which book I >>forget but it is a Bird-like human. The one I distinctly remember was a >>woman that Vanyel met when young and just learning from the Tayledras. Hope >>this helps. >No, you're thinking of the Tervardi - "a sort of flightless bird-woman" is the >description given...the hertasi are little (though not _so_ little) lizards >that serve the Tayledras in _Magic's Pawn_ (and also the Kaled'a'in in _The >Black Gryphon_). See also the latter two books of the Mage Winds trilogy. The hertasi are the ones who really disapprove of the severity of Whites and redesign them. As far as I can tell, the hertasi do most of the actually crafts work in the vales, with the Tayledras craftspeople doing mostly design and prototypes.:-) -jenneke I *am* family. How could I not have family values? Only Boys Accepting Feminism Get Kissed Meaningfully -- Geoff Marcy The only unnatural sexual act is that which you cannot perform. -Alfred Kinsey broekman-+AT+-sparky.phast.umass.edu | http://www-astro.phast.umass.edu/gs/jenn.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 May 1995 09:40:23 -0400 From: DonnaG4650-+AT+-aol.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Other books Message-ID: <950530094023_16388899-+AT+-aol.com> Hi folks! I'm really enjoying this current thread. It's like, I know other fantasy fans are out there...but where ;) It's good to compare notes! On May 27th, Iris characterized Asimov's Foundation series as "hopeless" because of shallow characters. I want to get into the camp on the other side that thinks Foundation was one of the greatest works ever written. It wasn't terrific because Hari Seldon was an extraordinary character, it was outstanding in Asimov's understanding of human nature. I look beyond the sci-fi aspects of the books and look at how amazingly perceptive Asimov was about how people react, as a whole, to situations. Also, I found the scope of the series to be just mindboggling. I wasn't, however, as impressed with Pebble in the Sky and the other 2 books that gave backround to the series. I'll read any of Asimov's robot stuff tho- :) As for the thread about Velgarth in films.... I hope, I hope, I hope they never do one. I've never been anything but disappointed in fantasy movies (with the possible light-hearted exceptions of Willow and the Princess Bride). Jenneke mentioned getting respect from filmmakers, but I think it's more than that. We all have our own ideas about what these amazing worlds and characters should be like, and nobody's film is going to capture the details that make them so incredible. :) About the hertasi... I'm reading Winds of Fate now, and this is the first time I remember them being mentioned. They are short, swamp-dwelling creatures with a reptilian ancestry. They grow rice and breed frogs and I'm pretty sure they also do servants work inside the Vale when the whole clan is there. They prefer to fight with sickle-shaped daggers and fish spears, but also use half-sized bows and arrows. They call intruders into their swamp "fertilizer" That's it for now! Donna ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 May 1995 6:52:21 -0600 (MDT) From: RUNDLE-+AT+-wilma.bcasd.az.honeywell.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Authors/Movies Message-ID: <950530065221.21c00a3e-+AT+-wilma.bcasd.az.honeywell.com> - sound of hand hitting self in forehead I can't believe I forgot to mention Patricia Wrede! And Patricia McKillip. Good deity. What happened to my brain. Anyone have a few grey cells to spare? If each of you pitches in a few, I'm sure I could have an entire brain again! Seriously, anything by Wrede is worth reading, rereading, rerereading, etc (you get the idea). Excellent. McKillip is a little chancier, but still great stuff. Also, Dan Callander is good, especially if you are tired of truly evil villains, and want some pure mindcandy. The only good word for the Callander books (Pyromancer, Aquamancer, Geomancer) is cute. They are incredibly relaxing because you don't have to worry about the characters. But for some reason they are still worth reading. Anyone else read his stuff, someone with a better idea of why they are good? As far as turning one of MLs books into a movie, have you thought about what it would take to show mindmagic? Or thoughtsensing/sending? One of those annoying voice-over voices? Aaargh. No thanks. I'll keep taking my doses of ML in book form. I think that with the track record that movie makers have with turning books into movies, I'll take a pass. Look what they did with puppet masters, an excellent science fiction/horror story (in my opinion of course). Not that the movie was bad. But it certainly didn't do what Heinlein wrote. It bore some resemblence to the Heinlein book, the way your assemble-in-only-5-minutes bike resembles the box. Basically, if they spend enough money on it, it turns out. But they would never spend enough money on one of MLs works, so they would turn out yet another B grade movie to point to and say, "See, Fantasy doesn't sell". Yuck. Not for me. Iris ------------------------------ End of MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 30 ********************************