MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 37 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re: Evil Mind Magic People by "Jennifer S. Broekman" 2) Re: Meeting up by Ilta Tuulia Adler 3) Re: Evil Mind Magic People by TAMRA SPIELVOGEL 4) Re: gwena by "Lisa" 5) Re: Companions' Voices thread by "Lisa" 6) Re: Monarch's Own by "Lisa" 7) The movie and stuff by DREAMSINGER 8) Re: Companions' Voices thread by Anne Cross 9) Re: gwena by TAMRA SPIELVOGEL 10) Re: lots of stuff by URAMESS-+AT+-aol.com 11) Re: ElvenBlood Description by URAMESS-+AT+-aol.com 12) Re: Other books by URAMESS-+AT+-aol.com 13) Re: Meeting up by URAMESS-+AT+-aol.com 14) Re: gwena by jah10-+AT+-cornell.edu (Jay A. Howell) 15) Elspeth as Herald by h-wilfehrt-+AT+-nwu.edu (Helen M. Wilfehrt) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 3 Jun 1995 11:44:25 -0400 From: "Jennifer S. Broekman" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Evil Mind Magic People Message-ID: <199506031544.LAA19428-+AT+-sparky.phast.umass.edu> Speaks-without-Breathing wrote: >I always wondered what happened to people with mind magic powers in >Valdemar that did NOT have what it takes to be a herald.. (The convo. >about Elspeth brings this up poignantly) >I had visions about Companions going and kicking in the skulls of anyone >with mind magic that would not make a suitable herald. It sort of fits at >least Gwenna, and to a degree Yfandes' way of handling problems. >Any other thoughts? They all get a homing call to Hardorn? I think that those who have a strong enough Gift to cause problems are either Chosen, if they're only marginally unsuitable, taken into a priesthood, the way Maeven Weatherwitch is, or blocked by either Heralds or Companions. Those whose Gifts are smaller can't get enough training to use them properly outside of the Heralds. They may also drift out of Valdemar, for much the same reason that those who are suitable supposedly drift towards Haven. _White Gryphon_ SPOILERS.... The only other time we see well-trained mental Gifts (without Mage Gift) is among the Haighlei, who control their telepaths ruthlessly. Even though Valdemar doesn't have the religion which deems telepathy an evil, I tend to think that they would have to be close to as ruthless in dealing with 'rogue' Gifted. Speaking of the Haighlei, anyone want to venture a guess as to what their Truthsayers Gift is? It's not telepathy, because they have a separate group of telepaths. It's not empathy, because that would be unreliable in the face of strong convictions. Is it something we don't see in Valdemar? Is it directly Deity-granted? -jenneke I *am* family. How could I not have family values? Only Boys Accepting Feminism Get Kissed Meaningfully -- Geoff Marcy The only unnatural sexual act is that which you cannot perform. -Alfred Kinsey broekman-+AT+-sparky.phast.umass.edu | http://www-astro.phast.umass.edu/gs/jenn.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Jun 1995 12:16:21 -0400 (EDT) From: Ilta Tuulia Adler To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Meeting up Message-ID: On Fri, 2 Jun 1995, Jennifer S. Broekman wrote: > > Anyone on the North American East Coast want to do a same day raid on > the Forbidden Planet in NYC? > > -jenneke > When. Sounds cool. Ilta -------------------------------------------------------------- Mashrooms taste good on burgers, but they won't raise the dead -------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 03 Jun 95 12:08:53 EDT From: TAMRA SPIELVOGEL To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Evil Mind Magic People Message-ID: <9506031616.AA03788-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk> I was just lurking a bit on the misty newsgroup (no flamea please I do it every now and then when I get bored) and they have an interesting thread going that I would love to hear opinions on. What happens to a companion that bonds with a herald who is later chosen Monarch's own? Remember that Vanyel said Jisa would probably be chosen Monarch's own but if need be she'd get chosen earlier for training. It was also mentioned in AOQ(?) that the monarch's own companion does choose on occasion a herald already chosen. Even if the initial bond is not as strong/deep as the bond when the herald is "re-chosen" what becomes of the relationship? or of the first companion? OPINIONS?---Tamra S. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Jun 1995 13:34:48 EST From: "Lisa" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: gwena Message-ID: <4523BA7105-+AT+-estuary.amrl.odu.edu> Jensen writes > Elspeth is one of my favorite characters and if your going to say > that sheisn't Herald material, I think you had better go take a > look at Kerowyn. She has the same type of attitude and even admits > to not understanding why someone would give up their life for > people they have never seen. Not that I think that Kero shouldn't > be a Herald, I thnik she makes a good one, but Elspeth is as > deserving (if not more) as Kero. I never said Elspeth shouldn't be a Herald. It's just that she seems to have this big chip on her shoulder (confidence is one thing, but she seems to cross to self-superiority). Okay, okay I understand about her childhood difficulties and such. I even agree with them to an extent. (I, too, hate to be manipulated and told what to do in an arbitrary fashion) The thing is...we've seen Kerowyn risk everything for her family and her friends (remember she went after the people who killed her family and she was just a kid then. She also is honest and has an impeccable sense of honor when it came to her Skybolts or anyone else with whom she was dealing and didn't throw away lives in pointless skirmishes) We don't see that with Elspeth. The only time I can remember anything along the selflessness lines occuring is when she helped Dirk to See so he could find Talia in Arrows Fall. I'll have to reread the Winds trilogy and see if I'm missing something here. Lisa ...it isn't dying honorably that counts... It's living honorably right to the end. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Lisa M. Ramirez ~ ramirez-+AT+-estuary.amrl.odu.edu Applied Marine Research Laboratory ~ Lab: (804) 683-3498 1034 W. 45th St. ~ FAX: (804) 683-5293 Norfolk, VA 23529 ~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Jun 1995 13:49:31 EST From: "Lisa" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Companions' Voices thread Message-ID: <45625B734B-+AT+-estuary.amrl.odu.edu> Jenneke writes: > I think only Rolan's voice has been discussed, and that's why all the > names have been male baritones. I think Yfandes is probably a light > alto, and Sayvil is probably a slightly husky alto. Dirk's Companion, > whose name has slipped my mind, I haar as a soprano, probably second, > not first. Gwena might be a first soprano. She's got that slight > hint of I-could-be-a-diva-if-I-tried...:-) Here are my descriptions/votes for Companion voices: Rolan - someone with measured tones (James Earl Jones/Patrick Stewart) Sayvil - Glenn Close or similar Ahrodie (Dirk's Companion) - Meg Ryan's voice or is it too thin Yfandes - Linda Hunt (Remember the "Year of Living Dangerously"?) Gwena - the voice of Nala in the Lion King comes to mind Tantris - I hear as a tenor with mischief in his voice - can't think of one right now. Anyone else? Lisa ...it isn't dying honorably that counts... It's living honorably right to the end. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Lisa M. Ramirez ~ ramirez-+AT+-estuary.amrl.odu.edu Applied Marine Research Laboratory ~ Lab: (804) 683-3498 1034 W. 45th St. ~ FAX: (804) 683-5293 Norfolk, VA 23529 ~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Jun 1995 14:04:37 EST From: "Lisa" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Monarch's Own Message-ID: <45A30B16A2-+AT+-estuary.amrl.odu.edu> Tamra writes: > What happens to a companion that bonds with a > herald who is later chosen Monarch's own? Remember that Vanyel said Jisa would > probably be chosen Monarch's own but if need be she'd get chosen earlier for > training. It was also mentioned in AOQ(?) that the monarch's own companion > does choose on occasion a herald already chosen. Even if the initial bond is > not as strong/deep as the bond when the herald is "re-chosen" what becomes of > the relationship? or of the first companion? I think Vanyel mentions in the second book (the name escapes me) that shen Jisa was Chosen, she would not bond with her Companion until she was Chosen by the Monarch's Own. Since there would be no formal bonding between Companion and Herald, I think the first Companion would be fine, and simply Choose another person. Their relationship would probably still exist, but the bond with the Monarch's Own may become so tight that it wouldn't matter. After all, all the Companions like all the Heralds and they can speak to any one of them they choose. If the first pairing wasn't a true bond, then maybe the communication part isn't there. The Companions seem to work together quite well when the need arises. The one who would Choose a future Monarch's Own (if the need ever arose) would probably know it before hand. The Companions all work for the good of Valdemar and as such they do what must be done even in Choosing. I can just picture them talking among themselves about this and then doing something like choosing straws to see who will partner the future Monarch's Own because the current one can't. Lisa ...it isn't dying honorably that counts... It's living honorably right to the end. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Lisa M. Ramirez ~ ramirez-+AT+-estuary.amrl.odu.edu Applied Marine Research Laboratory ~ Lab: (804) 683-3498 1034 W. 45th St. ~ FAX: (804) 683-5293 Norfolk, VA 23529 ~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Jun 1995 14:23:46 -0400 (EDT) From: DREAMSINGER To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: The movie and stuff Message-ID: <950603142346.1f627-+AT+-LVC.EDU> I hope they don't make a movie. If they must, I think that there should be rather new actors who aren't to popular in it. When I saw Interview, all I could think is "There's Tom playing Lestat...I hate Tom...He's not like Lestat at all..." and so forth. *sheepish grin* I think I should play Talia. I have the height ( or lack there of) and I have the hair (miserable cruly mop that it is)! RE: Evil Mind Magic type people: There was a well trianed mind magic person in one of the Tarma and Kethy stories. The one that was robbing the caravans: He made himself appear as someone who looks familiar to you. In defence of Elspeth - Some one said she loves to hold a grudge: Talia holds grudges too. I think that it was Keren that observed that if you hurt Talia she was very slow to relese the grudge. Also I think that Elspeth has a very good reason to be pushy about her way when she redirects Gwenna and her party to head toward the Vale. The companions are NOT supposed to rule their chosen's life. I believe that in arrows that Dirk told Elspeth just that. Also when Dirk was being impossible some one said something to the effect of (and just think of poor (dirk's companions name) he was running himself into the ground and she couldn't say a thing about it.) I think Elspeth makes a great herald. Heralds are supposed to give their lives, not have them taken away and controlled. I think she's willing to give her life as long as it's hers to give. Also in training, the trainer should suit the student. Some students need things explained in a special way. I also think she could lossen up a bit, but I thing she's obssesed with not letting anyone screw her over again. -Dreamsinger ________________________________________________________________________________ D_STANDINGWO.LVC.EDU ( *President - Alpha Psi Omega ) National Honourary Dramatic Fraternity B-A. D. A. Standingwolf ( *VicePresident- Gay Bi Les & Friends 104 HA Hall LVC ) Group Annville, PA 17003 ( *Sideline Percussion Captian -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I am ---> Dreamsinger ! * There is no one true way! ! * How dare you PRESUME! There's a place for us...a time and place for us! Hold my hand and we're half way there... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Jun 1995 15:51:15 -0400 (EDT) From: Anne Cross To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Companions' Voices thread Message-ID: On Sat, 3 Jun 1995, Julie Vaux wrote: > Do I get the impression most people are either assuming horses > would have baritone voices if they spoke or that Companions all have deep > pitched voices if male. Many of the names nominated are male baritones? > Admittedly companions are telepathic but what if they're alto or soprano > or tenor??? Florian is a tenor, Altra is a bass. I never found any refrences to what Rolan sounded like -- he doesn't talk much! What do you think Tantras would sound like? I always thought Yfandes would be a very light alto. And Sayvil as a soprano, talking lowish in her range. :) Anne Cross across-+AT+-sidwell.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 03 Jun 95 17:04:30 EDT From: TAMRA SPIELVOGEL To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: gwena Message-ID: <9506032115.AA09092-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk> Regarding Elspeth, the first thing is that no matter how annoyingly self-confid ant she is there are atleast thre p;oints where she risks self-sacrifice. 1.The rescue of Talia from Ancar 2.The defense of the Gryphons lair(sp) in Winds(bk. 1 I think) 3.The final battle with Ancar/Hulda/Falconsbane (three birds with one stone) Althou I must admit that I perfer Kero over Elspeth they both have there strong points. Just because someone is a herald does NOT mean the aren't human. A human is capable of holding a grudge, being self/over-confident, and of just being plain old stubborn. I do not care for excuses or explinations, what it all boils down to is that we had the ideal herald set up for us in Arrows and now we're getting some variation. Variation is the spice of life both here on good old Earth and on Velgarth. Just like there's no one true way there is no one true herald. (Flame suit slipped into fast and in a hurry) ----Tamra S. and her not so humble opinions ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Jun 1995 21:00:23 -0400 From: URAMESS-+AT+-aol.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: lots of stuff Message-ID: <950603210021_22127554-+AT+-aol.com> In a message dated 95-06-01 09:34:47 EDT, Aldren wrote: > Here's some ideas "off the cuff:" (this >assumes we're talking Arrows - people wouldn't accept Vanyel as a >Hollywood hero yet ... ) > >Sherrill - Winona Ryder >Keren - Geena Davis >Selenay - Susan Sarandon >Talia - Sara Gilbert >Skif - the guy who played Neil Perry in Dead Poets Society >Dirk - Cary Elwes >Kris - >Elspeth - >Ancar - Alan Ricker >Rolan (voice) - Patrick Stewart >Teren - Peter Simon >Ylsa - >Jadus - >Elcarth - >Hulda - Sharon Stone :) I love the choices that you made!!!! What do you think about Julian Sands as Ancar? Unfortunatley my brain is refusing to co-operate with me in naming some others for the blanks listed above. Clear Skies Matt J ######################################################################## Knowledge of Gay history helps restore a people to its past, to itself; it extends the range of human possibilitym suggests new ways of living, new ways of loving. --Jonathan Ned Katz. Gay and Lesbian History Month is all this month. ######################################################################## ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Jun 1995 20:57:39 -0400 From: URAMESS-+AT+-aol.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: ElvenBlood Description Message-ID: <950603205738_22127603-+AT+-aol.com> In a message dated 95-06-01 10:30:19 EDT, Mel wrote: >Damn, it was doing so well until it got to.... > > >> Jacket Art by Boris Vallejo > > >If I buy it and find Shana on the front in a skimpy bikini, I shall go >spare ... > >Mel. > > Mel, its ok, honey, honestly! Looking at the book infront of me,(God how I love the loan policy at Waldens). Anyway the focus is on 2 dragons in flight fighting, and in the background there is a landscape with a village and people milling about. Very Boris, muted colors, yellows and browns. Hope this helps. Blessings to all Matt J %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% I can't even think straight! -- Tshirt slogan %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Jun 1995 21:00:28 -0400 From: URAMESS-+AT+-aol.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Other books Message-ID: <950603210028_22127614-+AT+-aol.com> In a message dated 95-06-01 15:35:04 EDT, you write: >Greetings, > >URAMESS-+AT+-aol.com wrote: > >>U> High Flight > >High Flight rings bells for some reason. What is it ? Tnx. > >jhm > > Oh my, someone would have to ask that! If I remember correclty, (please note, I am putting my flame resistant suit on now) that saying is said to either, the Gryphons, or to the bond birds, wishing a good flight. I can stand to be corrected with more evidence though. Great weekend to all Matt J ****************************************************************************** *********************** I am bisexual, happy and proud.--Rock Hudson. ****************************************************************************** *********************** i am not sure that i truly believe the above quote.--matt ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Jun 1995 21:00:55 -0400 From: URAMESS-+AT+-aol.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Meeting up Message-ID: <950603210054_22127831-+AT+-aol.com> In a message dated 95-06-02 14:44:10 EDT, you write: >Anyone on the North American East Coast want to do a same day raid on >the Forbidden Planet in NYC? > >-jenneke > > > when and where in NYC? I am about 4 hours away and will try my hardest to make it. Clear Skies Matt J +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ I am bisexual, happy and proud. --Rock Hudson +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Jun 1995 23:22:57 -0500 From: jah10-+AT+-cornell.edu (Jay A. Howell) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: gwena Message-ID: >Regarding Elspeth, the first thing is that no matter how annoyingly >self-confidant she is there are atleast thre points where she risks >self-sacrifice. > 1.The rescue of Talia from Ancar > 2.The defense of the Gryphons lair(sp) in Winds(bk. 1 I think) > 3.The final battle with Ancar/Hulda/Falconsbane > (three birds with one stone) (Flame suit slipped into fast and in a hurry) >----Tamra S. and her not so humble opinions (As Tamra said and many others) Heralds are ONLY human. I suspect that Elspeth is more disliked than others just because of the "Royal Brat" stage she went through when Hulda was her nurse. As for over-confidence: Show me the Mage (Adept or otherwise) that has NO confidence in his/her abilities, that will last more than 2 seconds in a mage-battle. (Even Kero's mages are self-confident) Mage's tend to be self-confident to the point of Arrogance. When you are dealing with that amount of energy/power, you have to be confident in your abilities. OR, you get squashed like a bug. The dictionary defines Arrogance as: A feeling of superiority manifested in an overbearing manner or presumtious claims. Confidence as: A consciousness of feeling sure (self-reliance), cocksureness, the quality or state of being certain. Confident as: Trustful, Confiding, Characterized by assurance: Self-reliant. Full of conviction; certain; cocksure. According to all the arguments, Elspeth is over-confident, not arrogant. I don't see this as a bad trait to have in a Herald-Mage. In fact, I think ALL heralds have to be confident in their talents, which is what Vanyel and Stefen tried to correct in LHM. (Remember: All the Heralds felt inferior to the Herald-Mages, which sapped their confidence to handle problems they normally could have.) If the Herald in question develops Arrogance, then I would hope that their Companion would deflate them. Jay P.S. Don't worry Tamra, I will put a shield over you too. :) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 04 Jun 1995 00:19:24 -0500 From: h-wilfehrt-+AT+-nwu.edu (Helen M. Wilfehrt) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Elspeth as Herald Message-ID: <199506040520.AA133783219-+AT+-casbah.acns.nwu.edu> A bit lengthy discussion of Elspeth----- There's been quite a debate as to the suitability of Elspeth as a Herald. Well, as several characters noted, Skiff was considered to be quite unsuitable even after he was Chosen. There were a few other Heralds who were Chosen when they were criminals. Heralds aren't necessarily going to be all "sugar and spice" as the children's poem goes. Different types of people would be needed to fulfill all the varied duties of a Herald, from being rescuers, thieves, ambassadors, and spies, to name but a few of the less questionable acts. Remember, even Dirk had no qualms to cutting someone's throat or killing them from behind. Elspeth is a special case altogether different from most of the other Heralds for several reasons. Not the least of which was that she was raised to be the Royal Heir, which requires entirely different behavioral patterns than most Heralds needed to worry about. In between being considered suspect because of her father's actions and then being taken advantage of by Kris's uncle's machinations, Elspeth understandably became a bit brusque and took on that haughty royal front because she needed to protect herself from being hurt more. Her low self esteem contributed to her haughtiness, I believe. However, her brusqueness and haughty attitude doesn't mean she's any less moral or deserving of being a Herald. As they say it takes all kinds...... Comparisons to Kero as she is in Winds are a bit moot since their situations are so different. Kero rose through the ranks and had opportunities to learn and grow up and mature. But when she became Captain she did about as much distancing herself from others as Elspeth does. That didn't mean Kero didn't care for them; the distancing was necessary for command. But by that time Kero is older and more experienced than Elspeth is as Heir and Herald, and able to balance things better. Elspeth, in many ways, had to deal with the same problems as Kero did but a stage when she's not quite as mature as Kero was plus Kero didn't have to grow up in the limelight nor was Kero the focus of Grand Plans. By the time Elspeth had obtained much of her mage training and she and Darkwind have established their relationship, she has matured significantly. Her exposure to other cultures has lessened her naivete. And she has found people, both human and non-human, who know and like HER, not her as Herald, not her as Heir, just her. That would do much for her self-esteem which I feel was rather low and which contributed a great deal to her behavior. Her abdication of her role as Heir more than indicates that she is worthy of being a Herald. She has chosen to do what is good for Valdemar. She has seen that she wouldn't rule Valdemar well and that Valdemar's best interests would be served with her being a Herald Mage first. A side note, being strong willed and being a Herald Mage is probably a preferable combination. Remember what Kethry said : that a strong will is the best tool a Mage could have since a strong will is necessary to convince Magic energy to be something it isn't. I haven't read _Storm_. But in Winds, as a main character, Elspeth was pretty interesting particularly since the royalty had been pretty much sidelined for more remarkable Heralds. My 2cents plus some ;-) Helen h-wilfehrt-+AT+-nwu.edu ------------------------------ End of MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 37 ********************************