MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 80 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re: UK Lackey list meeting by URAMESS-+AT+-aol.com 2) Re: Misty web pages by Gyrfalcon 3) Re: Misty web pages by Ian MacDonald 4) Re: Disabilities in Velgarth by RUNDLE-+AT+-wilma.bcasd.az.honeywell.com 5) Re: UK Lackey list meeting by Gyrfalcon 6) Re: UK Lackey list meeting by jc-+AT+-crosfield.co.uk (Jerry Cullingford) 7) Re: UK Lackey list meeting by mel (Melanie Dymond Harper) 8) Re: Disabilities in Velgarth by "Jennifer S. Broekman" 9) Re: Disabilities in Velgarth by mel (Melanie Dymond Harper) 10) Mailing lists by Moriana-+AT+-aol.com 11) Re: UK Lackey list meeting by Gyrfalcon 12) Re: UK Lackey list meeting by Erica Neely 13) Re: Disabilities in Velgarth by RUNDLE-+AT+-wilma.bcasd.az.honeywell.com 14) RE: Mailing lists by RUNDLE-+AT+-wilma.bcasd.az.honeywell.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 17 Jul 1995 19:17:11 -0400 From: URAMESS-+AT+-aol.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: UK Lackey list meeting Message-ID: <950717191709_116919739-+AT+-aol.com> In a message dated 95-07-17 07:23:27 EDT, you write: >Mel, you're sick. Very sick. > Have you considered seeing a man in a nice white coat? > Hell take you someplace where you can have a nice long rest. > > >--Gyrfalcon > > Now what ever gave you that idea? I think that there are more of us that could use a rest besides our lovely listmitress! Matt ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ They murder our love -- and it lives. They strangle our cry -- and the future resounds with it! -- John Henry Mackay. Let's stop treating the earth like an ashtray! -- Bette Midler Why are some people so miserable in their own lives that they must try to control mine? ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >> Harrisburg, PA Gay Pride Festival -- July 30, 1995. Resivoir Park << ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 1995 06:36:06 -0400 (EDT) From: Gyrfalcon To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Misty web pages Message-ID: >I seem to have lost the URLs of all the Misty pages all of you have put up. >I finally have a home page and would like to put in links to all >of the pages. If you'd be so kind as to email me, not the list, so I >don't clutter it) with the URLs, I'd be happy. > Otavia Well as long as somebody is going to mail the addresses of the pages, send them to me as well, my page will be going up sometime in early Sept / late Aug, And I'll be putting in those links. Wind to thy wings, --Gyrfalcon =======================msowers-+AT+-menger.eecs.stevens-tech.edu=================== Magic still exists. We have only to reach out and touch it, it is a part of the very fabric of the world. When our belief of magic completely dies this universe shall die. Because that magic; Hope, Dreams, Love, Beauty, Wonder, Belief, and Discovery are what make us a people. They are all part of a great Art whose workings are still a mystery but whose applications can be seen every day. If we ever lose the Art mankind shall not last the day. Let the magic that is in us roam free in our work, play, in each other, and most of all in ourselves. Let it roam free or it will die. ============================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 1995 11:49:22 +0100 From: Ian MacDonald To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Misty web pages Message-ID: <2275.9507181049-+AT+-davaar.dcs.ed.ac.uk> > I seem to have lost the URLs of all the Misty pages all of you have put up. > I finally have a home page and would like to put in links to all > of the pages. If you'd be so kind as to email me, not the list, so I > don't clutter it) with the URLs, I'd be happy. > Otavia It should be at http://www.dcs.ed.ac.uk/home/ism/lackey/lackey.html just as a warning some pages which are stored in my tardis account will not be available since the disk that they were stored on has died (Anyone \ got a spare 1 gig scci ?) Hopefully I will be able to recover everything at the weekend You can get the links to mels pages from within the mailing list pages and the other links should be on the title page Happy surfing Ian Mac _/_/_/_/_/ _/ _/ You never get where you _/ _/_/ _/_/ want to be only where you need to be _/ _/ _/_/ _/ email ism-+AT+-dcs.ed.ac.uk _/ _/ _/ _/_/_/_/_/ AN _/ _/ ACDONALD, Edinburgh University, Scotland ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 1995 6:13:34 -0600 (MDT) From: RUNDLE-+AT+-wilma.bcasd.az.honeywell.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Disabilities in Velgarth Message-ID: <950718061334.20606c6c-+AT+-wilma.bcasd.az.honeywell.com> >> = Starwolf (me) > = Jenneke >Starwolf wrote: >>My put on the whole thing is that they have healers. Healers heal >>(what a concept). I would imagine that over time, most, or even all >>mental conditions are cured. As far as physical handicaps, I think >>they can heal most, although we saw several examples where they didn't >>heal completely, like the guy that escorted Karal and his mentor from >>the border (I'm drawing a real blank on most of the names today, >>sorry). jenneke responds: >I don't think handicaps like Downs Syndrome and blindness are >necessarily heal-able. They might be in the womb? Of course, you'd have to know that there's a problem, and since prenatal care is virtually nonexistant in medieval societies ... >>Or the girl that was badly burned in the Arrows books. >>While they were able to heal her, they were unable >>to prevent severe scarring. >Given that they couldn't prevent scarring from occuring, I don't see >how they'd cure or prevent cerebral palsy or (born) deafness. I wasn't implying they could. I just threw in a few absolutes to get the discussion going again (guess it sort of worked ). >>So there must be some amount of handicapped people >>wandering around, some maybe even chosen. >I don't think the question was really, do they exist, but more, why >don't we see them. True. I think that part of it is that we read to get away from the real world. And most of what we've seen of Valdemar has been the Heralds. Heralds must be intelligent and ablebodied, since their jobs are so demanding. There have been exceptions, which really bothered me, particularly Lore in the second Vanyel book. I never felt he should have been chosen. I don't understand how he was chosen. >>However, keep in mind that the Velgarthian societies are very >>different from ours: natural selection is working constantly there. >>We prevent that. In other words, someone with a severe handicap would >>probably not survive for any great length of time, or if they did, >>would be very unlikely to marry and have children, potentially passing >>on the handicap (for those that are inheritable). >>I know that sounds harsh, but that's the way medieval societies work. >>Survival of the fittest is a harsh reality. >True, but these things (blindness, deafness, Downs Syndrome (and other >chromosomal abnormalities), and cerebral palsy) are not strongly >enough inheritable for them to have been bred out in the real world, >so we can expect that they haven't been on Velgarth, either. (I can >see people with mild DS being Chosen on a fairly regular basis, >actually...) I honestly can't. I admit I'm somewhat ignorant on the subject, but I would think that a mild case of DS would be equivalent to a mild case of retardation of other sorts. Correct me if I'm wrong. I would think that a Herald would need to be of high mental faculty. I'm not in any way trying to be insulting. But I don't think all people have all the same abilities as all others. And most of the people in our society today would make very poor heralds. But just because someone can't be a herald doesn't mean they are not worth a lot to their society. A good farmer can be just as important to Valdemar as a mediocre herald. Right? >>BTW, once magic becomes a bigger part of their society, >>do you think they will be able to heal more people? >>I do. After all, magic can *alter* a person, while >>healing can only try to restore the person to the >>limit of the healer's ability. >If you're of the opinion that Healers can only restore, how do you >expect them to fix handicaps? As for magic fixing handicaps, I think >the best it can probably do is give the affected person ways to cope, >the same as technology. (Think how useful Farsight or MageSight would >be to a blind person: it wouldn't cure them, but it would give them a >way to deal.) Ah but magic is different. Magic can change the physical properties of something. Just as the ideas of alchemy were to change one substance to another. Magic wouldn't "fix" the problem. For example, if you were blind, a good magic user, such as Elspeth will become, someone of great power, would simply change your eyes so that you would see. Just as Maar as Falconsbane was able to completely change his body. That's the power of magic. Healing has to work with what's there, and sometimes what's there can't support itself, i.e. someone has an eye destroyed will never see again, and healing can't change that. But magic can. >From what we've seen of Velgarth, I don't believe I'm wrong about the differences between healing and magic. The rest of it, I don't know about. My guess about handicaps in Velgarth are certainly only guesses. Let's see who comes up with some specific sites proving me wrong StarWolf ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 1995 09:24:11 -0400 (EDT) From: Gyrfalcon To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: UK Lackey list meeting Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Jul 1995 URAMESS-+AT+-aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 95-07-17 07:23:27 EDT, you write: > > >Mel, you're sick. Very sick. > > Have you considered seeing a man in a nice white coat? > > Hell take you someplace where you can have a nice long rest. > > > > > >--Gyrfalcon > > > > > > Now what ever gave you that idea? > > I think that there are more of us that could use a rest besides our lovely > listmitress! > > Matt Yeah me for one...,Wonder what they do in Velgarth with those-who-must-be-kept-in-a-padded-room. (or in my case a cubical. :) ) We've only seen what 2 cases of insanity, three if you count the step-father in Arrow's Flight (that was Herald induced) But the others were niether dangerously insane. We Know what the do with the non-dangerously insane. They turn them into Heralds! Wind to thy Wings, --Gyrfalcon =======================msowers-+AT+-menger.eecs.stevens-tech.edu=================== Magic still exists. We have only to reach out and touch it, it is a part of the very fabric of the world. When our belief of magic completely dies this universe shall die. Because that magic; Hope, Dreams, Love, Beauty, Wonder, Belief, and Discovery are what make us a people. They are all part of a great Art whose workings are still a mystery but whose applications can be seen every day. If we ever lose the Art mankind shall not last the day. Let the magic that is in us roam free in our work, play, in each other, and most of all in ourselves. Let it roam free or it will die. ============================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 1995 13:33:30 +0000 (GMT) From: jc-+AT+-crosfield.co.uk (Jerry Cullingford) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: UK Lackey list meeting Message-ID: <9507181333.AA27082-+AT+-crosfield.co.uk> > I think that there are more of us that could use a rest besides our lovely > listmitress! > > Matt No, no - I was there, and Mel certainly wasn't wearing mittens :-) :-). -Jerry (who's managed (a) to come up with a few snippets of another version of The Great Barbecue Song for the music to Winds Four Quarters :-) and (b) nearly finished the books from Saturdays bookshop crawl :(. ) P.S. Expect an update to the review web pages in a few days time :-). -- _|_ / | Jerry Cullingford jc-+AT+-crosfield.co.uk (Work) \_|_ jc-+AT+-selune.demon.co.uk (Home) \__/ Hemel Hempstead, UK jerry-+AT+-shell.portal.com (alternate) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 1995 15:01:31 +0100 From: mel (Melanie Dymond Harper) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: UK Lackey list meeting Message-ID: <9507181401.AA11948-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk> > -Jerry (who's managed (a) to come up with a few snippets of another version > of The Great Barbecue Song for the music to Winds Four Quarters :-) Oh gods, what have I started? :) M. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 1995 11:15:54 -0400 From: "Jennifer S. Broekman" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Disabilities in Velgarth Message-ID: <199507181515.LAA23809-+AT+-sparky.phast.umass.edu> Starwolf wrote: >>> = Starwolf (me) >> = Jenneke >>Starwolf wrote: >>>My put on the whole thing is that they have healers. Healers heal >>>(what a concept). I would imagine that over time, most, or even all >>>mental conditions are cured. As far as physical handicaps, I think >>>they can heal most, although we saw several examples where they didn't >>>heal completely, like the guy that escorted Karal and his mentor from >>>the border (I'm drawing a real blank on most of the names today, >>>sorry). >jenneke responds: >>I don't think handicaps like Downs Syndrome and blindness are >>necessarily heal-able. >They might be in the womb? Of course, you'd have to know that >there's a problem, and since prenatal care is virtually nonexistant >in medieval societies ... Prenatal care is not virtually nonexistant in medeival societies, but prenatal testing of the sort we have through technology is. Given the abilities of Healers, I would think that prenatal care on Velgarth is probably as good as our current situation. However, while knowing about Downs Syndrome would help one know to correct for the heart and bowel defects often associated with the condition, it's far harder to see how it would help one compensate for the existence of an extra chromosome in every cell. >>>Or the girl that was badly burned in the Arrows books. >>>While they were able to heal her, they were unable >>>to prevent severe scarring. >>Given that they couldn't prevent scarring from occuring, I don't see >>how they'd cure or prevent cerebral palsy or (born) deafness. >I wasn't implying they could. I just threw in a few absolutes >to get the discussion going again (guess it sort of worked ). In other words, you implied that they could for rhetorical reasons... >>>So there must be some amount of handicapped people >>>wandering around, some maybe even chosen. >>I don't think the question was really, do they exist, but more, why >>don't we see them. >True. I think that part of it is that we read to get away from the >real world. And most of what we've seen of Valdemar has been the >Heralds. Heralds must be intelligent and ablebodied, since their I don't think the average Herald needs to be at all above average intelligence, and we've seen a Herald who wasn't able-bodied. Heralds have their Companions and Truth Spell to help them do what we'd do with pure intelligence. A stupid Herald wouldn't likely end up in a prominent job, but that doesn't mean stupid people don't get Chosen. Remember that there was no general outcry when people thought that Talia was "simple". >jobs are so demanding. There have been exceptions, which really >bothered me, particularly Lore in the second Vanyel book. I never >felt he should have been chosen. I don't understand how he was >chosen. However, he was, so we're sort of obliged to use him as a data point, however little we like him... >>so we can expect that they haven't been on Velgarth, either. (I can >>see people with mild DS being Chosen on a fairly regular basis, >>actually...) >I honestly can't. I admit I'm somewhat ignorant on the subject, but >I would think that a mild case of DS would be equivalent to a mild >case of retardation of other sorts. Correct me if I'm wrong. I >would think that a Herald would need to be of high mental faculty. People with mild Downs can function as normal members of society, and people with Downs of all severities tend to be very kind and pleasant and happy. I think the ability to interact well with people is much more important than pure intelligence for a field Herald, and I don't see any reason why someone with mild Downs couldn't fill the job at least as well as, say, Lore. >I'm not in any way trying to be insulting. But I don't think all >people have all the same abilities as all others. And most of the >people in our society today would make very poor heralds. But >just because someone can't be a herald doesn't mean they are not >worth a lot to their society. A good farmer can be just as important >to Valdemar as a mediocre herald. Right? A good farmer is probably more useful than a mediocre Herald, but I think the reason most people today would make poor Heralds is because of what's in their hearts, not their heads. Prejudice and unwillingness to look at situations from other people's perspectives are not solely the province of the stupid. There are plenty of brilliant people in the world today who would make absolutely miserable Heralds because they lack "the caring heart" and plenty of people who are not of "high mental faculty" who *do* possess the caring heart. >Ah but magic is different. Magic can change the physical properties >of something. Just as the ideas of alchemy were to change one >substance to another. Magic wouldn't "fix" the problem. For example, >if you were blind, a good magic user, such as Elspeth will become, >someone of great power, would simply change your eyes so that you >would see. Just as Maar as Falconsbane was able to completely >change his body. Ma'ar sculpted what he had, but he didn't change one type of tissue into another, as I understand it. The same principles that allowed him to change the texture, color, and length of his body hair wouldn't allow someone to create an optic nerve from nothing. -jenneke I *am* family. How could I not have family values? Only Boys Accepting Feminism Get Kissed Meaningfully -- Geoff Marcy The only unnatural sexual act is that which you cannot perform. -Alfred Kinsey broekman-+AT+-sparky.phast.umass.edu | http://www-astro.phast.umass.edu/gs/jenn.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 1995 16:23:04 +0100 From: mel (Melanie Dymond Harper) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Disabilities in Velgarth Message-ID: <9507181523.AA13578-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk> Thinking about it, I haven't seen many fantasy societies where magic can do the sort of micro-level things which would be needed to fix chromosomal defects. Um, let's see. Possibly in "Elvenbane" The Bene Gesserit in "Dune" There's an instance in one of McCaffrey's Talent books -- probably "To Ride Pegasus" of something vaguely similar. I think the problem is that unless you know exactly what you're looking for, it would be very hard to fix it with magic. Although Velgarth healers _might_ have twigged by now that, say, Down's Syndrome was some kind of genetic problem (not that I'm convinced they would have), I still don't think they'd be able to fix it, because they don't know what they're looking for. Hmmm. Mel ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 1995 14:15:47 -0400 From: Moriana-+AT+-aol.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Mailing lists Message-ID: <950718141546_35353295-+AT+-aol.com> I was wondering, how do you start a mailing list? :) Also, has anyone heard the Lovers, Lore and Loss Filk tape yet? Looks good, but I dunno... Someone gave me the Sunkindler Gold hair thong. It really is rather nice. Next thing you know I'll have a Vale or two in my backyard with a nice hotspring. Not that we need one today. . . . Dyrina ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 1995 15:00:48 -0400 (EDT) From: Gyrfalcon To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: UK Lackey list meeting Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Jul 1995, Melanie Dymond Harper wrote: > > > -Jerry (who's managed (a) to come up with a few snippets of another version > > of The Great Barbecue Song for the music to Winds Four Quarters :-) > > Oh gods, what have I started? :) > > M. > What, you mean that you didn't mean it? I mean to say that you didn't mean it. That's mean. No really I'm stable, yeah. Stable as any herald... Oh. Alright lock me up. --Gyrfalcon =======================msowers-+AT+-menger.eecs.stevens-tech.edu=================== Magic still exists. We have only to reach out and touch it, it is a part of the very fabric of the world. When our belief of magic completely dies this universe shall die. Because that magic; Hope, Dreams, Love, Beauty, Wonder, Belief, and Discovery are what make us a people. They are all part of a great Art whose workings are still a mystery but whose applications can be seen every day. If we ever lose the Art mankind shall not last the day. Let the magic that is in us roam free in our work, play, in each other, and most of all in ourselves. Let it roam free or it will die. ============================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 1995 20:29:44 +0100 (BST) From: Erica Neely To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: UK Lackey list meeting Message-ID: > > -Jerry (who's managed (a) to come up with a few snippets of another version > > of The Great Barbecue Song for the music to Winds Four Quarters :-) > > Oh gods, what have I started? :) Do you really want to know? FWIW, I thought parts of your poem/song/whatever scanned to, ummm, the song about lawn worshiping. (oklahoma weed-whacking masacree?) Jerry, when will your version of the great barbacue song be ready for public humil - uh, consumption? Erica ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 1995 13:32:02 -0600 (MDT) From: RUNDLE-+AT+-wilma.bcasd.az.honeywell.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Disabilities in Velgarth Message-ID: <950718133202.20606c6c-+AT+-wilma.bcasd.az.honeywell.com> >Prenatal care is not virtually nonexistant in medeival societies, but >prenatal testing of the sort we have through technology is. Given the >abilities of Healers, I would think that prenatal care on Velgarth is >probably as good as our current situation. However, while knowing >about Downs Syndrome would help one know to correct for the heart and >bowel defects often associated with the condition, it's far harder to >see how it would help one compensate for the existence of an extra >chromosome in every cell. I would have to agree. Prenatal care in the U.S. today is very high for some of the population, and extremely poor for others. Just as in Valdemar, where prenatal care for children born of or around heralds would be high, while outlying areas would probably have little more than the occassional midwife. >>>Given that they couldn't prevent scarring from occuring, I don't see >>>how they'd cure or prevent cerebral palsy or (born) deafness. >>I wasn't implying they could. I just threw in a few absolutes >>to get the discussion going again (guess it sort of worked ). >In other words, you implied that they could for rhetorical reasons... I'll concede that I phrased it poorly, but I honestly was not trying to imply anything. >I don't think the average Herald needs to be at all above average >intelligence, and we've seen a Herald who wasn't able-bodied. Heralds >have their Companions and Truth Spell to help them do what we'd do >with pure intelligence. Now this I disagree with absolutely. They ride circuit for up to a year at a time, being judge, jury and executioner, as well as tax accountant etc. In other words, the queen's presence throughout Valdemar. An average or stupid herald couldn't handle the job. >A stupid Herald wouldn't likely end up in a >prominent job, but that doesn't mean stupid people don't get Chosen. >Remember that there was no general outcry when people thought that >Talia was "simple". There was no outcry among the Heralds, because they trusted in Rolan to have chosen well. They realized quickly that Rolan had. >>jobs are so demanding. There have been exceptions, which really >>bothered me, particularly Lore in the second Vanyel book. I never >>felt he should have been chosen. I don't understand how he was >>chosen. >However, he was, so we're sort of obliged to use him as a data point, >however little we like him... True. But there was some reason he was chosen, that was given in the book. I was never terribly satisfied with it. He was a fool, and he certainly did not display the caring heart. >People with mild Downs can function as normal members of society, and >people with Downs of all severities tend to be very kind and pleasant >and happy. I think the ability to interact well with people is much >more important than pure intelligence for a field Herald, and I don't >see any reason why someone with mild Downs couldn't fill the job at >least as well as, say, Lore. Being pleasant and happy is not the function of a Herald. You must be able to judge accurately, and while truth spell is useful, it's human judgement that's more important. You must be able to know when there is a situation that requires you to intervene, and when it is best to leave things to the locals. This requires good decision making skills, usually associated with higher intelligence. The companions cannot be asked to compensate for low intelligence. They are supposed to be a mentor, a helper, not a crutch. ----- seperate subject entirely ----- >>Ah but magic is different. Magic can change the physical properties >>of something. Just as the ideas of alchemy were to change one >>substance to another. Magic wouldn't "fix" the problem. For example, >>if you were blind, a good magic user, such as Elspeth will become, >>someone of great power, would simply change your eyes so that you >>would see. Just as Maar as Falconsbane was able to completely >>change his body. >Ma'ar sculpted what he had, but he didn't change one type of tissue >into another, as I understand it. The same principles that allowed >him to change the texture, color, and length of his body hair wouldn't >allow someone to create an optic nerve from nothing. I disagree. Ma'ar did not just take what he had. He changed himself and his daughter, not just sculpting, but changing, creating something that was not there. Cat like eyes, fur where he used to have hair, etc. I think that with enough power (a strong enough node), a lot is possible. Perhaps creating a new optic nerve is beyond the scope of magic. I'm not as sure of that as you, though. StarWolf ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Jul 1995 13:33:31 -0600 (MDT) From: RUNDLE-+AT+-wilma.bcasd.az.honeywell.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: RE: Mailing lists Message-ID: <950718133331.20606c6c-+AT+-wilma.bcasd.az.honeywell.com> >Also, has anyone heard the Lovers, Lore and Loss Filk tape yet? > Looks good, but I dunno... I have. I received it about a week ago. I've listened to it once. I admit that it takes me a while to warm up to a new CD, so I'll withhold judgement. I disliked ShadowStalker the first time I listened to it, now I listen to it constantly and love it. So I'll let you know in a few weeks. StarWolf ------------------------------ End of MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 80 ********************************