MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 89 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re: List?!? -Reply by Ian MacDonald 2) Villains -Reply by Ian MacDonald 3) Re: Personable Villians by mealink-+AT+-syd.au.swissbank.com (Kerry Mealing) 4) number of subscribers by mel (Melanie Dymond Harper) 5) Re: Personable Villians -Reply by Ian MacDonald 6) Re: Personable Villians -Reply by Michael Richards 7) Re: Personable Villians -Reply by mel (Melanie Dymond Harper) 8) Re: Personable Villians -Reply by Gyrfalcon 9) Re: Personable Villians -Reply by Michael Richards 10) Re: Personable Villians -Reply by Gyrfalcon 11) Re: Personable Villians -Reply by mel (Melanie Dymond Harper) 12) Stop the world I want to get off! by Sherry Sharpe 13) Re: Personable Villians -Reply by Gyrfalcon 14) Re: SF. Written by Ilta Tuulia Adler 15) Re: SF. Written by jc-+AT+-crosfield.co.uk (Jerry Cullingford) 16) RE: SF. Written by "Thomas, Daria" 17) Re: Personable Villians -Reply by Joan Ferguson 18) Re: Personable Villians -Reply by Michael Richards 19) Villian Characteristic by Gyrfalcon 20) BBQs? by Erica Neely 21) RE: Personable Villians -Reply by EBM 22) Re: Villian Characteristic by Michael Richards ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 27 Jul 1995 08:52:13 +0000 From: Ian MacDonald To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: List?!? -Reply Message-ID: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 25 Jul 1995, Gyrfalcon wrote: I rush to assure I was not out to offend anyone. I'm both a student and working this summer. I've just noticed over the years that as summer approches students who have e-mail tend to go home and not have e-mail. Of course, as home computers and modems become the rule rather than the exception these things do change.> <<<<<<<<<<<<<<< No offence taken. It was just such a nice day yesterday and I was stuck in side!!! Just as a blast from the past I was going through some of my archive I keep and I came accros an email from mel saying the list was broken. I also had a list of people subscribed to it (only about 20!!!) the only name I really reconised was anne's Mel what the number of subscibers now?? Bye Ian -+AT+-work ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jul 1995 09:02:49 +0000 From: Ian MacDonald To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Villains -Reply Message-ID: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Speaking of Villains: I was reading what people where saying in SF.Written and I'm kinda in agreement with the part about Villains. The complaint was that Lackey writes whimpy villains. I'll have to say that's true. Ma'ar was evil, but we barely see him. All his other incarnations are less evil, and more mad. Mad makes an interesting villain, but crazy people are seldom crafty (least not in fiction). As I've said before, Now that I think about it, the best villain is always the one you never expect. The only villain I can think of which wasn't a villain at the start was Acnar. Though the Herald had there doubts before we ever met him so that sort of spoiled it. Am I making sense? <<<<<<<<<<<<<<< ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jul 95 19:04:07 EST From: mealink-+AT+-syd.au.swissbank.com (Kerry Mealing) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Cc: kerry_mealing-+AT+-il.us.swissbank.com Subject: Re: Personable Villians Message-ID: <9507270904.AA14585-+AT+-syd.au.swissbank.com> Heya all. I know the original thread was talking about Velgarrde related villians, but Misty does have at least a couple of villians in other series that can be personable, sometimes likeable. I'm having a bad name-day, so please 'scuse the lack of book names. I haven't been here long enough to know whether spoiler warnings are the norm or not, soooo.. >From the Diana Tregarde series, the earliest book where Diana meets Andre for the first time & comes up against the psychic vampires.. Remember Dave? Di's ex-boyfriend, turned psychic vampire, who needed to feed off the darker emotions of victims? He stood by while the others killed and fed off the emotions. Admittedly this is more good-guy-in-helpless-situation, but until the end where he helps Di against the others and kills himself to stop from turning on Di, he's certainly no herald. Alternatively, for a more villian'ish villian, try Belinda whatshername from 'When the bough breaks'.. kills mercilessly where she wants, but chooses to spare the child, effectively sacrificing herself in the process. I can think of two justifications for why Velgarrde seems so white-hat / black-hat defined. Firstly, heralds or herald-type people are by Misty's definition pretty nice people, at least in the big things (note this caveat) and so they need pretty dark people to oppose if it's going to be any sort of a story.. The same principal as in E.E. Doc Smith's lensman series, only thankfully not taken anywhere near so far.. (For those who haven't read them, they're classic space opera, set where the most noble, fit, good-looking, dutiful, incorruptible, in short sickeningly good lensman fight to uphold civilization against the most evil anarchist beings imaginable). The second reason, not nearly so strong, is that herald's aren't as perfect as they're popularly supposed to be.. they're human, they get tired, or stubborn, they make mistakes (think of the herald who was whipping a the companion that chose the heir to the throne , they have prejudices (some of the offhand comments in the herald-mage series indicate some anti-shaych attitudes even among heralds that Van's known for 20+ years.. similarly in Talia's day). If you start making villians likeable and stop playing-down these less pleasant characteristics, the sense of it being an epic struggle gets lost. Personally (and this is as much a criticism of sci-fi/fantasy in general as it is of Misty's books) I'm tired, not so much of utterly bad villians but of stupid, impractical villians, who don't even have fun being so evil. I'm tired of villians tying the good-guys up while water slowly rises, tired of villians gloating long enough for their prey to escape, tired of villians trying to convince good guys to join them. You can be damned sure if I were a villian, I'd be pragmatic and I'd be *bad*. Van would have been dead when he faced that first blood-mage in the village long before he could reach for the node. Talia would have been dead immediately - she's a herald - you're not going to get useful information out of her. Darkwind's father (Starfire?) would have quietly arranged accidents for all the other mages in the Tayledras camp and brought the shields down when the rest were too weak to fight Falconsbane off. This failing at least, is explicable based on Falconbane's need to do everything in as contorted a manner as possible. Leareth was the only 'sensible' villian I've seen - killing off mages & mage-born before he could be detected - he may not have known of Yfandes' ability to act as a power source - without her Van himself knew he couldn't take Leareth with a final strike. Personally, with his reputation, Van would have been the first mage to go.. though it may have been more difficult since he wasn't at Haven much. Falconsbane was mad, plain and simple.. The first principle to being really good at anything (whether it be evil or good) :) is to know yourself, know your limitations and strengths. He didn't. Admittedly having a goddess ranged against you is probably something of a handicap. Ah well, I'm rambling 'cos it's late & I'm tired. Zhai hellava all. Kerry. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jul 1995 10:19:51 +0100 From: mel (Melanie Dymond Harper) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: number of subscribers Message-ID: <9507270919.AA17995-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk> At the moment there are exactly 250 subscribers; we lost a few at the end of college terms. A few of those are duplicate subs for one reason or another (I am subscribed here and at home so that I can post from both places, as are a few other people). A few demographics: (skip this bit if you're not interested :) -- at least I can do this without cluttering up a whole newsgroup...) Canada: 10 .org: 4 Singapore: 1 Finland: 2 UK: 21 no domain: 1 (me :)) US military: 1 Netherlands: 1 Poland: 1 Assorted .com: 88 (including 47 AOL folks) Norway: 1 .us: 2 .net: 17 Australia: 11 New Zealand: 2 Bitnet: 2 .edu: 85 Cheers Mel. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jul 1995 11:12:32 +0000 From: Ian MacDonald To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Personable Villians -Reply Message-ID: >From the Diana Tregarde series, the earliest book where Diana meets Andre for the first time & comes up against the psychic vampires.. Remember Dave? Di's ex-boyfriend, turned psychic vampire, who needed to feed off the darker emotions of victims? He stood by while the others killed and fed off the emotions. Admittedly this is more good-guy-in-helpless-situation, but until the end where he helps Di against the others and kills himself to stop from turning on Di, he's certainly no herald. # I thought Dave was killing himself more because he didn't like who he had become and didn't want to continue killing people than to stop him self turning on Di. >You can be damned sure if I were a villian, I'd be pragmatic and I'd be *bad*. Van would have been dead when he faced that first blood-mage in the village long before he could reach for the node. Talia would have been dead immediately - she's a herald - you're not going to get useful information out of her. # Ah but they were just torturing Talia for the sake it not to get any information from her. Ian-+AT+-work ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jul 1995 12:05:20 +0100 (BST) From: Michael Richards To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Personable Villians -Reply Message-ID: > > You can be damned sure if I were a villian, I'd be pragmatic and I'd be > > *bad*. Van would have been dead when he faced that first blood-mage in Me too. None of this messing around with torture for the sake of it, and imprisoning people in dungeons to gloat over them. To paraphrase a long debate I saw once, "-evil- does not mean stupid". Ancar should have held off until the Queen's party were well over the border and vulnerable to his mages. -Then- he should have killed Kris and Talia and his father, in that order I think (since Kris' death would hit the empath hard, and his father was totally unsuspecting of his plans) Leareth did a good job, taking his time, eliminating opponents, etc, right up until the end: Vanyel should have been killed while he couldn't use his magic. If you -know- someone is a threat to you, and they're vulnerable, and it won't expose you to needless risks, of course you take them out! Falconsbane was grandiose but should have acted faster; with the resources he had (all those minor mages) a surprise attack on the clan, especially with a berserk Starblade taking down the shields and attacking people, would have worked fine. > Ah but they were just torturing Talia for the sake it not to get any > information from her. Which is dumb, IMHO. You torture for information or if it will give you power. You eliminate rivals and enemies -quickly-. It's a hard life being dramatically evil; you can't afford to indulge yourself. Unfortunately, the problem with competent bad-guys in stories is that they are hard to make vincible... Mike ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jul 1995 12:32:01 +0100 From: mel (Melanie Dymond Harper) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Personable Villians -Reply Message-ID: <9507271132.AA20068-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk> > Me too. None of this messing around with torture for the sake of it, and > imprisoning people in dungeons to gloat over them. To paraphrase a long > debate I saw once, "-evil- does not mean stupid". > Unlike what most films would have you believe. :) I saw Judge Dredd the other night, and Rico Dredd comes close to winning the "most stupid villain" award... > Unfortunately, the problem with competent bad-guys in stories is that > they are hard to make vincible... > Myabe, maybe not. You need to limit their resources a _lot_ -- give them a few not-too-competent mages -- perhaps with a very limited range. Also, it'd help if the villain himself hasn't got extremely high powers, so that he has to coerce the people who _do_ have the powers to cooperate with him. The problem with Ancar was that, being a medium-high level mage himself, he had to make some mistakes or he would have been _very_ hard to take out. :) Cheers Mel. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jul 1995 07:41:26 -0400 (EDT) From: Gyrfalcon To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Personable Villians -Reply Message-ID: >> You can be damned sure if I were a villian, I'd be pragmatic and I'd be >> *bad*. Van would have been dead when he faced that first blood-mage in >> the village long before he could reach for the node. Talia would have been >> dead immediately - she's a herald - you're not going to get useful >> information out of her. > # Ah but they were just torturing Talia for the sake it not to get any > information from her. I agree w/ the original viewpoint on villianism with the fact that if I had an enemy I make sure that they were Dead(the most permanent type) the minute I could safely do so. No torture, no mindgames, just dead. I've read too many stories where the Hero/ine is able to get free at the last moment and save the world. It's hard to do that when the villian kills them first. Although Ancar had a reason for keeping Talia alive, and torturing her. He wanted her spirit broken and herself open to Hulda's mind control. I would expect it to be easier for her (Hulda) to control a person who has been broken and is no longer fighting. But again Ancar was stupid, if I were planning to take over a country, Hardorn and Valdemar, I would find out as much as I could about it. Send a spy in as a palace servant. Remember that servants hear more than they let on. Someone like that would learn much about the Heralds just by working around the Collegium. Ancar would have been better prepared and would probally killed Talia as soon as he got hands on her. Then again, that would have been the end of the story there and nobody would have been waiting for Storm Rising to come out. --Gyrfalcon P.S. Anyone who is offended by my .sig well Pbthhhhthh! :P =======================msowers-+AT+-menger.eecs.stevens-tech.edu=================== Magic still exists. We have only to reach out and touch it, it is a part of the very fabric of the world. When our belief of magic completely dies this universe shall die. Because that magic; Hope, Dreams, Love, Beauty, Wonder, Belief, and Discovery are what make us a people. They are all part of a great Art whose workings are still a mystery but whose applications can be seen every day. If we ever lose the Art mankind shall not last the day. Let the magic that is in us roam free in our work, play, in each other, and most of all in ourselves. Let it roam free or it will die. ============================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jul 1995 12:57:55 +0100 (BST) From: Michael Richards To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Personable Villians -Reply Message-ID: > > imprisoning people in dungeons to gloat over them. To paraphrase a long > > debate I saw once, "-evil- does not mean stupid". > Unlike what most films would have you believe. :) I saw Judge Dredd the other > night, and Rico Dredd comes close to winning the "most stupid villain" award... I've not seen that... but I think the Riddler in Batman Forever should have just killed Wayne when he had the chance. > > Unfortunately, the problem with competent bad-guys in stories is that > > they are hard to make vincible... > Maybe, maybe not. You need to limit their resources a _lot_ -- give them a > few not-too-competent mages -- perhaps with a very limited range. Also, it'd > help if the villain himself hasn't got extremely high powers, so that he has > to coerce the people who _do_ have the powers to cooperate with him. ...in other words, you give the bad guys the same resources as the good guys, rather than writing yet another "noble heroes fight against impossible odds". ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jul 1995 08:14:20 -0400 (EDT) From: Gyrfalcon To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Personable Villians -Reply Message-ID: On Thu, 27 Jul 1995, Michael Richards wrote: > Me too. None of this messing around with torture for the sake of it, and > imprisoning people in dungeons to gloat over them. To paraphrase a long > debate I saw once, "-evil- does not mean stupid". > Leareth did a good job, taking his time, eliminating opponents, etc, right > up until the end: Vanyel should have been killed while he couldn't use his > magic. If you -know- someone is a threat to you, and they're vulnerable, > and it won't expose you to needless risks, of course you take them out! > > Ah but they were just torturing Talia for the sake it not to get any > > information from her. > > Which is dumb, IMHO. You torture for information or if it will give you > power. You eliminate rivals and enemies -quickly-. It's a hard life being > dramatically evil; you can't afford to indulge yourself. > > Unfortunately, the problem with competent bad-guys in stories is that > they are hard to make vincible... > > Mike Almost makes you wonder how people come up with decent villian, I have a picture in my head of a long line of unscruplous people snaking up to a desk, and being asked: -- Name? Ma'ar -- And what have you done that makes you a worthwhile opponent? I've turned my people into narrow-minded bigioted facists, unified them into a unstoppable army, and have started to conqueror the known world. -- Personal Hobbies? I enjoy power, prestige, and torturing Gryphons. I believe in eliminating my enemies quickly, quietly and with a minium of effort. -- Alright I think we can use you. Vision Ends. Scary ain't it, --Gyrfalcon =======================msowers-+AT+-menger.eecs.stevens-tech.edu=================== Magic still exists. We have only to reach out and touch it, it is a part of the very fabric of the world. When our belief of magic completely dies this universe shall die. Because that magic; Hope, Dreams, Love, Beauty, Wonder, Belief, and Discovery are what make us a people. They are all part of a great Art whose workings are still a mystery but whose applications can be seen every day. If we ever lose the Art mankind shall not last the day. Let the magic that is in us roam free in our work, play, in each other, and most of all in ourselves. Let it roam free or it will die. ============================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jul 1995 13:42:50 +0100 From: mel (Melanie Dymond Harper) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Personable Villians -Reply Message-ID: <9507271242.AA22588-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk> I'm going to _have_ to find my copy of "So You Want To Be A Villain", or title something like that; it was a quiz which appeared in the magazine of the role-playing society of which I was a member at the time. This may take some while, and I'll need to try and find the person who wrote it to get permission ... hmmm .... Cheers Mel. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jul 1995 08:52:07 -0400 (EDT) From: Sherry Sharpe To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Stop the world I want to get off! Message-ID: HELP! I want off this list. I tried SIGNOFF MEREDES-LACKEY, and it keeps coming right back at me saying "invalid command". I sent the command to listproc-+AT+-uel.ac.uk is that the right adress? Is that the right command? Do I put it in the body or the subject??? Help. Many Thanks! Sherry ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jul 1995 09:26:23 -0400 (EDT) From: Gyrfalcon To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Personable Villians -Reply Message-ID: > Myabe, maybe not. You need to limit their resources a _lot_ -- give them a > few not-too-competent mages -- perhaps with a very limited range. Also, it'd > help if the villain himself hasn't got extremely high powers, so that he has > to coerce the people who _do_ have the powers to cooperate with him. The > problem with Ancar was that, being a medium-high level mage himself, he had > to make some mistakes or he would have been _very_ hard to take out. :) This would be a classic example of the "Crush The Bug" senario. In one or another book there is a passage that reads something like: Just because I may have the capability to do great harm does that mean that I should be tried and imprisoned for it? All of us have the ability to choose our own paths and make decisions. If someone has the ability to hurt someone doesn't mean that (s)he would. All of Misty's villians seem to start out small and insignifigant with only the potential to do harm. By the time they could do serious damage they already had a stable powerbase from which to work from. A good real life example of this type of villian was Adolf Hitler. I don't wish to set off any strong feelings about this but he was basically the same type of man as Ma'ar. Hitler was charismatic, and nationalistic, it took a few years of building a powerbase untill he was able to do any damage. He laid low until he had that base and had others do his dirty work for him. All of his flunkies worked for him because of his charisma, he didn't have to threaten people until he came out into the public eye. If the gov't had squashed him while he was just a nusiance then WWII would have been avoided. But this would have been unethical, and by "Crushing the Bug" we could have saved millions of people. The same with Stalin. Ma'ar and Learth were the same personality, as well as the same person. They probally started small, using their charisma to attract some followers, as well as the attraction of the magic. Ma'ar (I'm not sure about Learth) had a small following and prefered to work through his flunkies. Then when the time was right he nabbed the power, and started his war. Had the gov't where he had been born crushed him when he was just a troublemaker we wouldn't of have such a great villian to hate. My gods I have a lot to say... --Gyrfalcon =======================msowers-+AT+-menger.eecs.stevens-tech.edu=================== Magic still exists. We have only to reach out and touch it, it is a part of the very fabric of the world. When our belief of magic completely dies this universe shall die. Because that magic; Hope, Dreams, Love, Beauty, Wonder, Belief, and Discovery are what make us a people. They are all part of a great Art whose workings are still a mystery but whose applications can be seen every day. If we ever lose the Art mankind shall not last the day. Let the magic that is in us roam free in our work, play, in each other, and most of all in ourselves. Let it roam free or it will die. ============================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jul 1995 09:39:52 -0400 (EDT) From: Ilta Tuulia Adler To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: SF. Written Message-ID: On Wed, 26 Jul 1995, Naomi wrote: > Has anyone been following the Lackely thread on SF.written > recently? The jist of it is that some people think she uses too much > sexual violence. My first thought was what? but then I sat down and -munch Actually in When the Bough Breaks (I think that was the title, it was one of the Serrated Edge books) I actually couldn't finish the book. It the only one of Mercy's books that I just couldn't read. The book never explained in detail (at least as far as I got) how the girl child was being sexually abused by her father, but what was written was truelly horrible. Of course part of it was that I respond extreamly strongly to the whole concept of sexual abuse of children. (and before anyone gets worried, no I'm not a surviver, I just have an overdose of empathy) Ilta -------------------------------------------------------------- Mushrooms taste good on burgers, but they won't raise the dead -------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jul 1995 14:27:54 +0000 (GMT) From: jc-+AT+-crosfield.co.uk (Jerry Cullingford) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: SF. Written Message-ID: <9507271428.AA21839-+AT+-crosfield.co.uk> > -------------------------------------------------------------- > Mushrooms taste good on burgers, but they won't raise the dead > -------------------------------------------------------------- ...At least not when they've been turned into burgers, which is probably just as well if you like the occasional mushroom double swiss :-). Hmm... maybe it's only cows they don't work on? (I wonder - do they work on barbecues, or is it just hair dryers? :-) ). -- _|_ / | Jerry Cullingford jc-+AT+-crosfield.co.uk (Work) \_|_ jc-+AT+-selune.demon.co.uk (Home) \__/ Hemel Hempstead, UK jerry-+AT+-shell.portal.com (alternate) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jul 95 09:30:00 cdt From: "Thomas, Daria" To: 'mercedes-lackey' Subject: RE: SF. Written Message-ID: <3017A34E-+AT+-mailsrvr.bussvc.wisc.edu> Well, I'm glad I'm not the only one who noticed. The first time I read Magic's Price and got to the part where Vanyel is being abused, I cried for hours. I still can't even think about it without getting teary-eyed. (really!) That scene, to me, is the most painful and emotional that I've ever read. But whenever I re-read the book, I can't take it again--I skip it and go on to when Stef is helping him recover in the kyree caves. I wonder if ML was going through something really painful at the time and it came out in her work? Does anyone know if her divorce was around that time? (I don't mean to get personal about her, but it seems to me that that might explain it.) -Daria From: Naomi > Has anyone been following the Lackely thread on SF.written >recently? The jist of it is that some people think she uses too much >sexual violence. My first thought was what? but then I sat down and >thought. Vanyel getting raped. Talia, Kethry _and_ Tarma, Nyara(sp?), >etc. in just about every book somthing happens, and often it is a major >character. I never really noticed how much there was, probably because >when I reread books, I often do it in sections, and skip those parts. When >I re-read Magic's Price, I usually put it down between the forming of the >heartstone and Savil's death. I never really thought why, I just did. > >Any thoughts? > >Naomi ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jul 1995 10:55:44 -0400 From: Joan Ferguson To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Personable Villians -Reply Message-ID: <199507271455.KAA20701-+AT+-elmer.Harvard.EDU> >I agree w/ the original viewpoint on villianism with the fact that if I >had an enemy I make sure that they were Dead(the most permanent type) the >minute I could safely do so. No torture, no mindgames, just dead. I've >read too many stories where the Hero/ine is able to get free at the last >moment and save the world. It's hard to do that when the villian kills >them first. > Ah, but that's what makes a villian a villian in most cases ... they are too proud, too sure of themselves that they feel that they can take the time to torture and play mind games, never suspecting that the victim is smart/strong enough to attempt escape. Most villians seem to be unable to think beyond the idea "Now I have what I wanted ... so what do I do with it(him/her/them/etc.)?" That's why most villians *aren't* able to *just* kill - they get too wrapped up in what they've done and what they have the power to do next. Not stupidily, but rather overweening pride perhaps. (I love that phrase!) Joan ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jul 1995 15:53:05 +0100 (BST) From: Michael Richards To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Personable Villians -Reply Message-ID: > I'm going to _have_ to find my copy of "So You Want To Be A Villain", or Presenting: The Villain's Midterms -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- A sample list of questions used to award MEvil degrees. Section 1: Goals 1.1 You are a master-class mage with no resources other than your own magic and one small mansion (with servants). What should your long term objectives be? a. Getting decent quality food from the servants b. Ruling the nearby village by popular acclaim c. Taking over the area and ruling through fear d. Conquering the country as a necessary first step in taking over the world e. Conquering the country in order to have the resources to destroy the world 1.2 Your father is the just but aging ruler of a small country; you are the heir and stand to inherit within 20 years. What should your short term plans be? a. Supporting your father in his policies b. Covert building up of support so as to have a ready court when your father dies c. Covert building up of support in order to weaken your father's position d. Assassination Section 2: Tactics 2.1 You have managed to suborn a spy in a hostile camp. Do you a. Have him do nothing, so as not to risk losing him? b. Have him pass you information but take no active action? c. Have him spread rumours to weaken your enemy through division? d. Have him attempt to lay traps for your opponents in order to kill them? e. Have him lower your enemy's defences while you launch a major offensive, and kill as many opponents as possible in the confusion? 2.2 You have captured an envoy of your enemy, rumoured to have the ability to communicate mind-to-mind. Do you a. Tell her your plans and capabilities in detail? b. Imprison her so you can torture her whenever you feel like it? c. Kill her? 2.3 Your agents have sucessfully captured and rendered helpless the most power opponent to your current scheme. Do you: a. Congratulate them and ask them to heal him up? b. Instruct them to hold him while you decide what to do? c. Have them torture him for recreation as a reward? d. Have them kill him while he is unconscious? Section 3: Ethics Question 3.1: What phrase best sums up your ethics? a. Wouldn't hurt a flea. b. Cause maximum suffering at every opportunity. c. Anything that will advance my plans is acceptable, anything that does not is unnecessary. -=-=-=-=-=-=- Anybody want to add some? ;-) Mike ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jul 1995 11:13:25 -0400 (EDT) From: Gyrfalcon To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Villian Characteristic Message-ID: As long as we are on such a Dark subject, what do you think are ideal characteristics in villians? What do you admire and what would you like to see in them. In short what would your ideal villian be? --Gyrfalcon -------------------------------\_______________________________________ _________// | msowers-+AT+-menger.eecs.stevens-tech.edu \ / _ _ -/ |--------------------------------------| _______/ <-+AT+-=-/ / | We the willing, led by the unknowing,| / ' | are doing the impossible for the | /____ ____ __/ | ungrateful. We have done so much | \____ /__ __ | with so litle for so often, we are | \ // || \\ | qualified to do anything with | |/ // \_// | nothing. -unknown | -----------------------------------------------------------------------/ Soon to have a web page somewhere!! / ---------------------------------------------------------------------/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jul 1995 16:15:32 +0100 (BST) From: Erica Neely To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: BBQs? Message-ID: On Thu, 27 Jul 1995, Jerry Cullingford wrote: > (I wonder - do they work on barbecues, or is it just hair dryers? :-) ). Speaking of barbecues...when do we get the Barbecue song? (No, I haven't forgotten...) erica ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jul 1995 10:11:27 -0600 From: EBM To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: RE: Personable Villians -Reply Message-ID: <01HTDCZD52F69BXVN4-+AT+-SKISAS.USask.CA> I'm actually kind of looking forward to how this works out with Tremane. At one point I was thinking that he might end up getting chosen or something similiar, his rival inherits the empire and there's a big confrontation. Now I'm not so sure, after all Vanyel states at one point (paraphrase) "Companions do not choose murderers." So does this mean that Tremane must remain an enemy, after all what he does sounds a lot like what the Skybolts might have been doing to Ancar's supporters in Hardorn before he was killed. Here might be Misty's answer to a likable/competent villian. Food for thought, Gene ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jul 1995 18:39:47 +0100 (BST) From: Michael Richards To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Villian Characteristic Message-ID: > As long as we are on such a Dark subject, what do you think are ideal > characteristics in villians? What do you admire and what would you like > to see in them. In short what would your ideal villian be? Someone with rational goals, and rational reasons for pursuing those goals. -example: in the Honor Harrington books by David Weber, the bad guys need to expand as their economy is a disaster, and they want to take over some more prosperous economies. Someone who was intelligent - not necessarily a brilliant research scientist or mage, but someone who spotted traps, made contingency plans, killed helpless opponents, and generally acted in an intelligent fashion. Someone who didn't defeat themselves at the climatic battle, or act over-confidant. Someone who didn't leave lying around the means to defeat them (such as a ring...) Someone who wasn't vastly more powerful than Our Heroes, but was on the same sort of power-level, making their defeat more plausible. If anyone has read the book by CS Friedman (I forget the title, and it's at home, but it's the prequel to "When True Night Falls" - help?), the former-cleric-turned-Hunter in that is a good villain - horribly likable for all his evil, intelligent, powerful but not ridiculously so... ------------------------------ End of MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 89 ********************************