MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 134 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Greetings by asquires-+AT+-dolphin.upenn.edu (Allison Squires) 2) Re: Subject: Genie Chat by URAMESS-+AT+-aol.com 3) Re: Just finished Magic's Price. by "Jennifer S. Broekman" 4) Re: LHM (SPOILER) by SariKr-+AT+-aol.com 5) Re: LHM (SPOILER) by mealink-+AT+-syd.au.swissbank.com (Kerry Mealing) 6) Re: LHM (SPOILER) by Adrienne York 7) Re: From Black, white to Silver Gry (not a spoiler) by URAMESS-+AT+-aol.com 8) Re: Firecats by URAMESS-+AT+-aol.com 9) Re: FIRE ROSE IS OUT!! by URAMESS-+AT+-aol.com 10) Re: Just a little comment while reading Storm Rising... by URAMESS-+AT+-aol.com 11) Re: Heyla... by URAMESS-+AT+-aol.com 12) Re: Just finished Magic's Price. by URAMESS-+AT+-aol.com 13) Cover Art...(was Firecats) by URAMESS-+AT+-aol.com 14) Re: Firecats by steph-+AT+-escher.mbi.ucla.edu (Stephanie Wukovitz) 15) Re: FIRE ROSE IS OUT!! by steph-+AT+-escher.mbi.ucla.edu (Stephanie Wukovitz) 16) Re: LHM (SPOILER) by Ina Faye-Lund 17) Re: LHM (SPOILER) by Ina Faye-Lund 18) Re: LHM (SPOILER) by mealink-+AT+-syd.au.swissbank.com (Kerry Mealing) 19) Re: LHM (SPOILER) by jhedge-+AT+-waterw.com (Jeanne Hedge) 20) kind of a spoiler, but not really.... by "Aphrael" 21) Re: Firecats by Catherine Osborne 22) Re: LHM (SPOILER) by Catherine Osborne ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 10 Sep 1995 13:06:46 -0400 (EDT) From: asquires-+AT+-dolphin.upenn.edu (Allison Squires) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Greetings Message-ID: <199509101706.NAA17832-+AT+-dolphin.upenn.edu> Hi Everyone, I just joined this group after discovering it on the web while doing a bit of net surfing. I have become terribly addicted to the herald books and some of Mercedes other stories so I have been looking for other folks who have heard of her. I have read all of them and I am working on Storm Rising in between my classwork and other university activities. The first book I ever read in the series (which I swore I would not get addicted to because I really don't like series because they can suck you in too easily) was "By the Sword". I had been looking for a fantasy book with a female heroine that was of completely independent mind and so I get it with Kero. I have since passed it on to other friends who have equally loved the story. I followed with Vanyel's tales, then Black Gryphon, Talia's stories, and then the Mage Storms. I have also read the Bardic tales too with Robyn & Kestrel etc. Oh, I also got the Oathbound series in there too. I like the Valdemar tales because the stories seem somewhat atypical of regular fantasy I have read and not to mention how open minded all the stories are. I admit that I wish I had a companion like I am sure most of you would. I also like the differentiation between mind and regular magic. Well, that is enough of an introduction for now. Looking forward to catching up with the discussions and procrastinating with them! --Sunwing ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Sep 1995 13:15:19 -0400 From: URAMESS-+AT+-aol.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Subject: Genie Chat Message-ID: <950910131518_95793782-+AT+-emout04.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 95-09-01 21:11:41 EDT, you write: >Once again, another addict is brought into the fold. Welcome, we know >about your addiction, and are here to nurture it. :) > And support it and let you know where you can get the latest fix and..............so on and so on. Got the picture? Good. Matt J who is up way to late on a Friday night. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Some of the most moral men I know are homosexuals. -- Dr. Evelyn Hooker. I think there fore I do not listen to Rush Limbaugh. -- T-shirt slogan. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Sep 1995 17:52:03 -0400 From: "Jennifer S. Broekman" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Just finished Magic's Price. Message-ID: <199509102152.RAA07076-+AT+-sparky.phast.umass.edu> Ina Faye-Lund wrote: >Well, it is more a feeling that inventing a character is exactly what >Talia would do. Just a feeling. >By inventing a role for herself, she becomes more a part of the story >than an observer, and it is a way of escaping. Even if I read the >book, I can make up roles that aren't there. Call it a way of >"improving" the book, changing it to the way _you_ want it to be. Well, then we'll have to agree to disagree, because I cannot believe that Talia would 'improve' a story she didn't know the ending to, while she was reading it for the first time. You (well, I, at least) don't have to invent a new character in order to escape into a book. I'm perfectly capable of identifying with a character I didn't invent, *even* a male, and I don't think Talia's non-Gift empathy was so lacking that she couldn't do the same. In short, I don't think there's a shred of evidence or motivation for thinking that Talia invented the character of the female Herald and plenty of reason to think that the in-world novelist who wrote the story did, and no amount of saying that adding characters to a story one doesn't know at all 'improves' it is going to change my mind. -jenneke I *am* family. How could I not have family values? Only Boys Accepting Feminism Get Kissed Meaningfully -- Geoff Marcy The only unnatural sexual act is that which you cannot perform. -Alfred Kinsey broekman-+AT+-sparky.phast.umass.edu | http://www-astro.phast.umass.edu/gs/jenn.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Sep 1995 21:14:52 -0400 From: SariKr-+AT+-aol.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: LHM (SPOILER) Message-ID: <950910211450_15837344-+AT+-mail06.mail.aol.com> Just in case there are those out there that haven't finished reading the LHM series. SPOILER In rereading the LHM books I encountered two things that I would like to get opinions on. In Magics Promise Vanyel stated that he thought he would be chosen by Taver as Queen's Own when Lancir died. Since he already had a bonded Companion in Yfandes what would have happened if he had been chosen instead of Shavri (in other statements it was said that a presumptive Queen's Own could be chosen by a companion other then the Queen's Own but it would be an unbonded choosing until he/she would be chosen at the death of the current Queens Own) In Magic's Price Starwind and Moondance are convinced that Stefan is 'Lendal uhm , "reincarnatied" (for lack of better phrase) yet Vanyel is visited by the "spirit" of 'Lendal telling him it is ok for him to be with Stef. Were Starwind and Moondance wrong or was there a part of Lendal that lived on in Stefan??? When Vanyel was given the choice to stay or enter the Haven's Jaysen was there to say goodbye but he didn't have the chance to say goodbye to Lendal which would have given him the closure he needed in that relationship. Any comments???? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Sep 95 12:51:55 EST From: mealink-+AT+-syd.au.swissbank.com (Kerry Mealing) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: LHM (SPOILER) Message-ID: <9509110251.AA19354-+AT+-syd.au.swissbank.com> > SPOILER > > > > > > In rereading the LHM books I encountered two things that I would like to get > opinions on. In Magics Promise Vanyel stated that he thought he would be > chosen by Taver as Queen's Own when Lancir died. Since he already had a > bonded Companion in Yfandes what would have happened if he had been chosen > instead of Shavri (in other statements it was said that a presumptive Queen's > Own could be chosen by a companion other then the Queen's Own but it would be > an unbonded choosing until he/she would be chosen at the death of the current > Queens Own) Someone did wonder a little while ago (sorry, can't remember whom) whether Yfandes was grove-born given the amount of responsibility Vanyel had to face. Of course that rather avoids the question, but it might have some bearing. On the other-hand, perhaps the reason Van wasn't chosen by Taver was because he was already chosen. :) The Queen's Own companion not dying when his (always a stallion remember) herald does, might suggest a slightly different life-bond between herald & companion? OTOH (why am I beginning to sound octopoid?) I'm not totally convinced personally, that the companion dies as a matter of course when the herald does - Keren was saved when her life-bond with Ylsa was severed & companion-bond is supposedly similar. Besides, if this wasn't the case, Leareth's raven-construct wouldn't have bothered to take out Savil's companion when he was in *shock* (shock, not dying) from Savil's death. > In Magic's Price Starwind and Moondance are convinced that Stefan is 'Lendal > uhm , "reincarnatied" (for lack of better phrase) yet Vanyel is visited by > the "spirit" of 'Lendal telling him it is ok for him to be with Stef. Were > Starwind and Moondance wrong or was there a part of Lendal that lived on in > Stefan??? When Vanyel was given the choice to stay or enter the Haven's > Jaysen was there to say goodbye but he didn't have the chance to say goodbye > to Lendal which would have given him the closure he needed in that > relationship. Any comments???? Hmmm, I hadn't picked up on this myself - I need to get my LHM books back from a friend. Suggestions - Jaysen asked to talk to Van so that he could a) warn Van & b) tell Van not to feel guilty - Tylendel already half out of his mind with grief over his twin, suicided in remorse, in shock from his Companion's death .. even as a spirit he may have been too guilt-ridden, initially to think clearly. My guess would be though, he *chose* to be reborn, to make amends for his actions and eventually to be with Van again. I have this image of Lendel being given a choice - talk to Van one last time, or be reborn with the possibility/eventuality of being with Van again. As for Lendal's spirit visiting Van - I don't see a problem with Lendal/Stef's spirit remembering everything on the intangible plane, but only subconscious memories in his mundane body. Remember, Van didn't always remember much when he 'dreamed' - remember the number of times he saw Yfandes as a lithe and graceful young woman? Incidently, on this line, I'd tend to put Yfandes as a grove-born, partly because of Van's major role to play in Valdemaar and partly because she stays on with him in the Forest of Sorrows - can you imagine how lonely that would get as a human reborn, even with a life-bonded. Van at least had Stef, but poor Yfandes was the odd one out. If she was a guardian spirit though then she presumably had more freedom than Van & Stef, even if she chose to stay with them out of love & loyalty. On the grove-born side is Yfandes' fetching herself *and* Stefan, not once but multiple times, across a distance that took companions 2-3 days hard ride. And she did it both ways - taking Stef to base & returning to Van. And she wouldn't have been using nodes near Van because she wouldn't have wanted to use power that he'd desperately need. Anyway, enough waffling from me. Cheers, Kerry. -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -- Kerry J Mealing mealink-+AT+-syd.au.swissbank.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Sep 1995 23:00:03 -0400 (EDT) From: Adrienne York To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: LHM (SPOILER) Message-ID: I don't know about the first question, concerning what would happen to Yfandes if Vanyel bonded to Taver, but about the second: They were in Dreamtime. I've never found another reference to Dreamtime in one of Mercedes Lackey's books. Maybe I just haven't read enough. But my thought is that perhaps one would appear in the form of one's truest self, and at that point anyway, Stef was still very much as 'Lendel had been in life: lecherous, loyal, extroardinarily Gifted. I'm sure there are other similarities. Perhaps, in Dreamtime, one appears as one really is, or should have been. Or alternately, maybe it was a gift from the gods sort of thing, which isn't really explained because the gods don't think mere mortals need to know. As for Vanyel not seeing 'Lendel when he saw Jaysen, there's a simple answer. Jaysen was recently dead, maybe not even entirely dead yet. 'Lendel was dead for several years at that point. And if, as supposed by Moondance, he was actually Stef, he was at that time singing on the streets of Haven, trying to earn enough money to feed himself and Bertie. Adrienne York-Minor a newbie ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Sep 1995 23:43:10 -0400 From: URAMESS-+AT+-aol.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: From Black, white to Silver Gry (not a spoiler) Message-ID: <950910234310_15969462-+AT+-mail06.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 95-09-04 15:20:01 EDT, you write: >>From talking with Larry online a few weeks ago, Silver Gryphon was a week >or two from being finished, so I expect it's done by now. > >Diamond NightDreamer > > You know, that's not playing quite fair. Matt J ****************************************************************************** ********************** with the right wine and the right music there're damn few that aren't curious. -- Mart Crowley. The years that I've lived up here I feel that I've liberated a lot of people just by living here and by being myself, just by being a campy queen. -- Rey "Sylvia Lee" Rivera. ****************************************************************************** *********************** ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Sep 1995 23:43:19 -0400 From: URAMESS-+AT+-aol.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Firecats Message-ID: <950910234319_15969583-+AT+-mail06.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 95-09-06 07:49:04 EDT, you write: >If I sound obsessed with age at the moment, well, my fiance is turning >30 3 days after my birthday, and boy is he complaining about it :-) > >Of course the above (not my fiance's birthday, but just about everything >else) is just *my* opinion... > >-Stephanie :-) > > Happy Birthday! Will there be a virtual cake? Matt J ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Sep 1995 23:43:16 -0400 From: URAMESS-+AT+-aol.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: FIRE ROSE IS OUT!! Message-ID: <950910234313_15969490-+AT+-mail04.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 95-09-04 18:50:05 EDT, you write: >Where do you work again? >I went into a Waldenbooks yesterday and saw FireRose. I was astonished, >mainly because this particular branch of Waldenbooks didn't even get >Storm Rising for two weeks!!! after it arrived at B. Daltons. I have >a Waldenbooks card, but sometimes things like that make me tempted to >switch to Daltons... I have never ever seen this store get a book before >the other stores in town, or ones on the east coast. >Storm Rising was #14 on the store's hardback bestseller table. >still amazed... >Jean > > I work for Waldens. Part time. The only reasoning that I can give you is that in the alphabetical order of things.....and that's the way publishers ship. So I have been told..... Matt J ****************************************************************************** *********************** wouldn't it be great if you could only get AIDS from giving money to television preachers? -- Elayne Boosler. (comedian) I think therefore I don't listen to Rush Limbaugh. -- T-shirt slogan. ****************************************************************************** *********************** ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Sep 1995 23:43:23 -0400 From: URAMESS-+AT+-aol.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Just a little comment while reading Storm Rising... Message-ID: <950910234323_15969617-+AT+-mail04.mail.aol.com> SPOLIER ALERT------------------------------------ In a message dated 95-09-07 00:24:15 EDT, you write: >>Hmmm. I wonder what the Valdemaran version of prozac would be? > >I don't know, but he sure was a good candidate there for a while! > >Actually, there for a bit I thought Ma'ar was getting ready for a return >engagement. > >Jeanne Hedge > > I would agree, or that he, was getting tainted from playing around Marr's boxy thing. Matt J ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Sep 1995 23:43:27 -0400 From: URAMESS-+AT+-aol.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Heyla... Message-ID: <950910234327_15969677-+AT+-mail04.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 95-09-09 00:54:15 EDT, you write: >Aside from the discussions of Storm Rising, what have I missed? > >Anne Cross A virtual picnic, people in the UK getting together somewhere........and welcome back. Matt J ****************************************************************************** *********************** God made homosexuals, so He must love them. I love them, too. -- Sophia Loren. There will be sex after death, we just won't be able to feel it. -- Lilly Tomlin. I think therefore I don't listen to Rush Limbaugh. -- T-shirt slogan. ****************************************************************************** *********************** ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Sep 1995 23:44:12 -0400 From: URAMESS-+AT+-aol.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Just finished Magic's Price. Message-ID: <950910234318_15969556-+AT+-mail02.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 95-09-06 00:00:25 EDT, you write: >Then again, for me, getting there is more than half the fun, and I'd >love to read fuller accounts of many stories we already know the >endings to, like how Savil met Starwind, or the story of Sunsinger and >Shadowdancer, or the story of the founding of Valdemar from Baron >Valdemar's perspective, and so on. If Misty wrote these as short >stories, would they be spoiled for you, because we've already been >introduced to a version of the ending? > >-jenneke > > Or, stories about Yfandes, more background on the Vales....and I could go on and on and on...... Matt J ****************************************************************************** *********************** I believe that if the world (if the human race) is to survive, then Lesbains will lead the way. -- Barbara Grier. God made homosexuals, so He must love them. I love them, too. -- Sophia Loren. There will be sex after death, we just wont be able to feel it. -- Lilly Tomlin. ****************************************************************************** *********************** ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Sep 1995 23:44:14 -0400 From: URAMESS-+AT+-aol.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Cover Art...(was Firecats) Message-ID: <950910234321_15969603-+AT+-mail02.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 95-09-06 08:39:56 EDT, you write: > >Finally, does anyone else object to Darrel K. Sweet's cover for The Fire >Rose? Artistically, it is one of the best that he has done, but the >picture is of a man with a wolf's head and HUMAN hands, which completely >blows away one of the principal parts of the plot > > I would have to agree with you......I do like the piece of work but as in most covers there are differences with what is portrayed on the cover and what is described in the book..... Matt J ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Sep 95 21:54:52 -0700 From: steph-+AT+-escher.mbi.ucla.edu (Stephanie Wukovitz) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Firecats Message-ID: <9509110454.AA05984-+AT+-escher.mbi.ucla.edu> Matt (and everyone else): Well, the birthday's not for a few weeks yet (apparently turning 30 is something that requires several weeks of pre-moping or something :-) poor old guy :-) Anyway, a virtual cake is all I get since I'm 2500 miles from home and don't get to go home until winter vacation. In fact, both our birthdays will probably pass without any fanfare since that is right around the time we're due to complete the video game we've been working on for almost 2 years. We figure on about 3 or 4 all-nighters around that time, and frankly we're considering the sleep after all that the best present of all! I;ve been meaning to mention what happened when Scott looked over my books a few months ago. He's not a Lackey fan (like me, he hates most fantasy...I'm sure he'd like Misty stuff, but hey I'm sure he'll end up reading it sooner or later). Well, he took a look at Black Gryphon and White Gryphon, and said, "So, is the next one _The Gray Gryphon_?" Well, close... :-) :-) Also when I was reading LHM trilogy, asked why Misty used a pain reliever as one of her characters...sigh :-) Oh well, back to the joys of writing videogame music... -Stephanie ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Sep 95 22:05:29 -0700 From: steph-+AT+-escher.mbi.ucla.edu (Stephanie Wukovitz) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: FIRE ROSE IS OUT!! Message-ID: <9509110505.AA06009-+AT+-escher.mbi.ucla.edu> Heh heh, the B. Daltons here saw my Waldens card, saw that my B. Daltons card had expired, and said they'd but my Waldens card for $5. Since the Waldens card was about to expire and I get the B Dalton card for another year *and* the Waldens within walking distance closed a few months back, this was cooool :-) But I got Fire Rose from Barnes and Noble because they have Software-ettes inside and I tend to hang out there. Didn't really like Fire Rose all that much, it wasn't *bad*, just seemed like a rush job. Whoops, in my first paragraph, I meant that B.Daltons bought my Waldens card by asking me for $5 and then giving me a B.Dalton card (usually worth $10). Brain dead tonight, too much music to compose, too little time. -Stephanie ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Sep 1995 07:46:38 +0200 From: Ina Faye-Lund To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: LHM (SPOILER) Message-ID: <199509110546.25425.gjalp.ifi.uio.no-+AT+-ifi.uio.no> On Mon, 11 Sep 1995 02:17:15 +0100, SariKr-+AT+-aol.com said: > Just in case there are those out there that haven't finished reading the LHM > series. > SPOILER > In rereading the LHM books I encountered two things that I would > like to get opinions on. In Magics Promise Vanyel stated that he > thought he would be chosen by Taver as Queen's Own when Lancir died. > Since he already had a bonded Companion in Yfandes what would have > happened if he had been chosen instead of Shavri (in other > statements it was said that a presumptive Queen's Own could be > chosen by a companion other then the Queen's Own but it would be an > unbonded choosing until he/she would be chosen at the death of the > current Queens Own) Have been wondering about it myself. But I guess Vanyel must have been wrong in this, that he had no chance of being Chosen as King's Own. I don't think he could ever have been chosen as King's Own. Two things; First, as you say he was already Chosen, so a King's Own would be Chosen from someone not yet a Herald. Second, Yfandes said that she knew how the whole thing would end. I guess that other Companions would know too, if nothing else, Yfandes would tell anyone who tried to Choose Vanyel. And I don't think that the Monarch's Own's Companion would chose one who was destinied to die. > In Magic's Price Starwind and Moondance are convinced that Stefan is > 'Lendal uhm , "reincarnatied" (for lack of better phrase) yet > Vanyel is visited by the "spirit" of 'Lendal telling him it is ok > for him to be with Stef. Were Starwind and Moondance wrong or was > there a part of Lendal that lived on in Stefan??? When Vanyel was > given the choice to stay or enter the Haven's Jaysen was there to > say goodbye but he didn't have the chance to say goodbye to Lendal > which would have given him the closure he needed in that > relationship. Any comments???? Again, two things: 'Lendel could have been little more than a dream. He dreamt that because he _needed_ it. More likely, though, I think that it really _was_ 'Lendel, and that this would have happened the first time Stefen and Vanyel shared bed. Not only bedchamber, but bed, with all that goes with it. ;) And I also think that 'Lendel was sent back, for another reason than ending the relationship in another way. He was there to keep Vanyel _sane_. He _needed_ that relationship, but Tylendel _had_ to die for Vanyel to be born. Remember Moondance's words; a paradox, because a Herald-trainee was repudiated and suicided, the greatest Herald-Mage ever (as far as I know...) was created, so had not this happened, Vanyel would have remained unchosen, and without powers, and Tylendel might have done good. Something good died to give birth to something else... What I mean is, perhaps even Tylendel's death was _known_ and planned, to bring out Vanyel? And would Vanyel have been the person he became, if Tylendel had not died? -- IFL Elen síla lümenn' omentielvo ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Sep 1995 07:57:59 +0200 From: Ina Faye-Lund To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: LHM (SPOILER) Message-ID: <199509110557.25451.gjalp.ifi.uio.no-+AT+-ifi.uio.no> On Mon, 11 Sep 1995 04:13:20 +0100, Kerry Mealing said: > Someone did wonder a little while ago (sorry, can't remember whom) > whether Yfandes was grove-born given the amount of responsibility > Vanyel had to face. Of course that rather avoids the question, but > it might have some bearing. On the other-hand, perhaps the reason > Van wasn't chosen by Taver was because he was already chosen. :) I still think Yfandes Grove-Born. :=) Has there ever been a case where a known, Chosen Herald has been Chosen Monarch's Own? Vanyel's role in this was different, I don't think he was _ever_ intended to be a Monarch's Own, he was too distant, too much a stranger, and too much a wonder for others to complete trust him. JMHO. > The Queen's Own companion not dying when his (always a stallion > remember) herald does, might suggest a slightly different life-bond > between herald & companion? OTOH (why am I beginning to sound > octopoid?) I'm not totally convinced personally, that the companion > dies as a matter of course when the herald does - Keren was saved > when her life-bond with Ylsa was severed & companion-bond is > supposedly similar. Besides, if this wasn't the case, Leareth's > raven-construct wouldn't have bothered to take out Savil's > companion when he was in *shock* (shock, not dying) from Savil's > death. Savil says, in Magic's Pawn, that if a Herald dies, the Companion _usually_ dies with him. "She'd pine herself to death, lad..." So, they don't die as a result, but they suicide. I wonder if that difference with the Monarch's Own Companion is because he is Grove-Born, and thus will the death of Elspeth make Gwena Choose another one, or is that just the Monarch's Own? I guess the Monarch's Own _has_ to live, because he _knows_ about humans, and knows them better, I suppose, than any other Companion. > As for Lendal's spirit visiting Van - I don't see a problem with > Lendal/Stef's spirit remembering everything on the intangible plane, > but only subconscious memories in his mundane body. Remember, Van > didn't always remember much when he 'dreamed' - remember the number > of times he saw Yfandes as a lithe and graceful young woman? And, well, they _could_ be sharing a dream, sort of, only Stefen forgot. Remember, _Stefen_ didn't remember who he was, but the part of him that was still Tylendel would have joined Vanyel and Yfandes in that dream. -- IFL Elen síla lümenn' omentielvo ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Sep 95 17:28:47 EST From: mealink-+AT+-syd.au.swissbank.com (Kerry Mealing) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: LHM (SPOILER) Message-ID: <9509110728.AA23524-+AT+-syd.au.swissbank.com> Ina Faye-Lund wrote: > On Mon, 11 Sep 1995 02:17:15 +0100, SariKr-+AT+-aol.com said: > > SPOILER > > > > > > > In rereading the LHM books I encountered two things that I would > > like to get opinions on. In Magics Promise Vanyel stated that he > > thought he would be chosen by Taver as Queen's Own when Lancir died. > > Since he already had a bonded Companion in Yfandes what would have > > happened if he had been chosen instead of Shavri (in other > > statements it was said that a presumptive Queen's Own could be > > chosen by a companion other then the Queen's Own but it would be an > > unbonded choosing until he/she would be chosen at the death of the > > current Queens Own) > > > Have been wondering about it myself. But I guess Vanyel must have > been wrong in this, that he had no chance of being Chosen as King's > Own. I don't think he could ever have been chosen as King's Own. Two > things; First, as you say he was already Chosen, so a King's Own > would be Chosen from someone not yet a Herald. Second, Yfandes said > that she knew how the whole thing would end. I guess that other > Companions would know too, if nothing else, Yfandes would tell anyone > who tried to Choose Vanyel. And I don't think that the Monarch's > Own's Companion would chose one who was destinied to die. I agree completely with most of this. Chalk up foresight to Yfandes as well. I'm not sure about the destined-to-die bit - it kinda happens to everyone eventually, even heralds. (pedant mode off) I take your point though. I think probably the real reason Van wasn't chosen is that he would have made quite a bad Monarch's own for a number of reasons. In one sense, he was a more powerful figure than the monarch - you don't want that in someone who's supposed to be a supporting figure. Secondly, he's needed *way* more on the front lines than hanging round the Monarch all the time. Thirdly, frankly, much as I admire the guy, he's got the wrong type of personality for a M's Own. > And I also think that 'Lendel was sent back, for another reason than > ending the relationship in another way. He was there to keep Vanyel > _sane_. He _needed_ that relationship, but Tylendel _had_ to die for > Vanyel to be born. Remember Moondance's words; a paradox, because a > Herald-trainee was repudiated and suicided, the greatest Herald-Mage > ever (as far as I know...) was created, so had not this happened, > Vanyel would have remained unchosen, and without powers, and Tylendel > might have done good. Something good died to give birth to something > else... What I mean is, perhaps even Tylendel's death was _known_ and > planned, to bring out Vanyel? And would Vanyel have been the person > he became, if Tylendel had not died? I'm sorry, this superficially seems reasonable but something in me is standing up and screaming 'NONONONONONONO' at this type of predestination. It grates very much on me for a herald's death to be known and planned by the powers that be - intensely so - the whole point of the heralds and the mentality behind all the gods/goddesses/avatars/manifestations of the 'Light' is that it is *not* *not* *not* ok to sacrifice one person for the good of the many. Note the difference between "I choose to sacrifice myself to save thousands" and "We choose to sacrifice *you* to save thousands". Small syntactically, enormous philosophically. Yes, it was ironic and tragic. No, Tylendel did *not* have to die (apart from the requirements of dramatic narrative) for Vanyel to become whom he did. Technically just feeding the power of the gate back through him accidentally - which would still have been possible if Savil & co had arrived in time, would have been sufficient to awaken his potential. In point of fact, from memory, his potential was awakened *before* 'Lendel suicided. Want more? Think of the potential in *two* life-bonded, Adept-Class, Tayledras trained, Herald-Mages (ie with companions) as talented as Vanyel & Tylendel were. No, 'Lendel *didn't* have to die - and that IMO was part of what made it so tragic. Comments? (Apart from Firestorms). :) Kerry. > -- > IFL > Elen sla lmenn' omentielvo ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Sep 1995 03:45:46 -0400 From: jhedge-+AT+-waterw.com (Jeanne Hedge) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: LHM (SPOILER) Message-ID: <9509110745.AA25081-+AT+-water.waterw.com> >On Mon, 11 Sep 1995 04:13:20 +0100, Kerry Mealing said: >I still think Yfandes Grove-Born. :=) >Has there ever been a case where a known, Chosen Herald has been >Chosen Monarch's Own? Vanyel's role in this was different, I don't >think he was _ever_ intended to be a Monarch's Own, he was too >distant, too much a stranger, and too much a wonder for others to >complete trust him. JMHO. In the 1st Arrows book, on Talia's first day of school, Teren tells the class that if the MO dies and the MO's Companion is still alive, the MOC will Choose another MO, USUALLY FROM SOMEONE WHO'S ALREADY A HERALD OR ABOUT TO GET THEIR WHITES . Sounds like what's UNcommon is for somebody who hasn't been Chosen already to be Chosen to be the new MOC. Jeanne Hedge jhedge-+AT+-water.waterw.com ======================= "Water, water everywhere, nor any drop to drink..." --Samuel Taylor Coleridge, 'The Rime of the Ancient Mariner' ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Sep 1995 09:00:09 EST From: "Aphrael" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: kind of a spoiler, but not really.... Message-ID: Did _Storm Rising's_ cover, with Solaris resplendant in Egyptian style sun-robes, not sit quite right with anybody else? I'd kind of always thought that Karsite society had a Germanic flavor to it, myself. And I have always *hated* that pointy-turban-thingy Jody Lee puts on Karal.... OK, I just reread what I wrote below, and it becomes more of a spoiler... *sigh* I love Jody Lee's work. Really I do. I just wish it could be a bit more accurate. (I know, I know, she doesn't have time to read the books all the way through, but still...) I'm referring to the fact that the cover depicts Solaris's entry into Valdemar in that secluded part of Companions' Field, and the only "people" who were actually present when she walked through the gate, and not further away with Selenay, Talia, Daren, et al, were Karal, Altra, and Florian. I'll talk to y'all later... Lyn (Who brought _Arrows_ and _SR_ with her to work today, just in case...) I am an idealist. | /> Lynore M. Belzer I don't know where | /< 716/379-3034 lbelzer-+AT+-sbu.edu I'm going, but I'm | -+AT+-}XXXXX(-+AT+-):::<=====================- on my way. | \< St. Bonaventure University -Carl Sandburg. | \> aka Aphrael/Sephrenia ___________________|__________________________________________________ As I lay me down to sleep, this I pray: that you will hold me dear, though I'm far away... Sophie B. Hawkins. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Sep 1995 09:11:19 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine Osborne To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Firecats Message-ID: On Mon, 11 Sep 1995 URAMESS-+AT+-aol.com wrote: > Happy Birthday! Will there be a virtual cake? > > Matt J Oh lady, not again. Well, if its chocolate, I'll bring my virtual whipped cream to put on top. I do actually have something to say. I'm sure it has occured to many that Lendel and Stefen are in many ways opposites, in relation to Vanyel. Vanyel wanted to be a Bard, Stef is. Lendel was a herald-mage, Vanyel is. Lendel was older, Vanyel is older. In fact, Vanyel has sort of become a more powerful Lendel and Stefen a more Gifted Vanyel. Comments? People telling me I'm an idiot and this is how Lendel and Stef are alike and Vanyel is unchanged? All are welcome as long as they provide specific evidence from the text... :) (Catherine's English class is getting to her already, and its only been two days... in that case, pure speculation is welcome also.) I\/ Catherine Osborne "I will not go down to I\/ Sundancer posterity talking bad I cosborne-+AT+-sidwell.edu grammar." I http://www.sidwell.edu/~cosborne/ --Disraeli ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Sep 1995 09:21:41 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine Osborne To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: LHM (SPOILER) Message-ID: On Mon, 11 Sep 1995, Jeanne Hedge wrote: > >I still think Yfandes Grove-Born. :=) Hmm. That *is* an interesting proposition. I'd have to say I disagree for pure lack of proof. Exhibit A: the birth of Gwena. When it happened, people were there to witness it, even though they forgot later, the readers knew. Also it was eventually found out, also Yfandes has *never* displayed the kind of inexperience and lack of past lives that Gwena does almost constantly. Who says someone with a big job to do needs a Grove-Born? As far as I can see, its just a special circumstance of birth and some extra magical power, with tradition about the MO attached to it. Yfandes, with her obvious ancient wisdom etc., did IMHO far more for Vanyel than Gwena has ever done for Elspeth. > Sounds like what's UNcommon is for > somebody who hasn't been Chosen already to be Chosen to be the new MOC. Never thought about that. But my question is still the same as the first time this came up, last year. What happens to the first Companion? (Not disagreeing that it happens, because it obviously does. Just wondering what the explanation behind it would be.) I\/ Catherine Osborne "I will not go down to I\/ Sundancer posterity talking bad I cosborne-+AT+-sidwell.edu grammar." I http://www.sidwell.edu/~cosborne/ --Disraeli ------------------------------ End of MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 134 *********************************