MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 137 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) re: LHM(SPOILER) by Adrienne York 2) Re: SPOILER ALERT: OK, a new thread... by Adrienne York 3) Re: Fetching by Jean Morrill 4) Re: Firecats by Michelle Kristen Henderson 5) Re: Fetching generally. by mealink-+AT+-syd.au.swissbank.com (Kerry Mealing) 6) Don't know if this has been mentioned in LHM thread by Elise M Packee 7) Re: LHM (SPOILER) by Elise M Packee 8) oops... by Elise M Packee 9) Re: SPOILER ALERT: OK, a new thread... by asquires-+AT+-dolphin.upenn.edu (Allison Squires) 10) Re: LHM (SPOILER) by SariKr-+AT+-aol.com 11) Re: LHM (SPOILER) by SariKr-+AT+-aol.com 12) Re: LHM (SPOILER) by Adrienne York 13) Re: LHM (SPOILER) by h-wilfehrt-+AT+-nwu.edu (Helen M. Wilfehrt) 14) Re: Talia in Karse by "Angela M." 15) Re: Van's gifts. by mealink-+AT+-syd.au.swissbank.com (Kerry Mealing) 16) Re: LHM (SPOILER) by Rosario Holsen-Baker 17) Re: oops... by Rosario Holsen-Baker 18) Shay'kreth'ashke etc. by joan_ferguson-+AT+-harvard.edu (Joan Ferguson) 19) Re: Van's gifts. by heb4-+AT+-cornell.edu 20) Re: LHM (SPOILER) by RUNDLE-+AT+-wilma.bcasd.az.honeywell.com 21) Re: LHM(SPOILER) by jc-+AT+-crosfield.co.uk (Jerry Cullingford) 22) SR tied into the LHM thread... by "Aphrael" 23) Re: I'm back...um by juniper-+AT+-olaf.wellesley.edu (Anne Cross) 24) Re: Van's gifts. by juniper-+AT+-olaf.wellesley.edu (Anne Cross) 25) re: LHM(SPOILER) by RUNDLE-+AT+-wilma.bcasd.az.honeywell.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 12 Sep 1995 17:09:36 -0400 (EDT) From: Adrienne York To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: re: LHM(SPOILER) Message-ID: (snip) On Tue, 12 Sep 1995, Jennifer S. Broekman wrote: It seems much more likely that Yfandes was > born the normal way, and would have Chosen him earlier if he'd been > less spoiled when he first arrived in Haven. > > (end snip) Companions only choose people with Gifts. As Vanyel had only potential when he came to Haven, Yfandes wouldn't have chosen him if he'd been the nicest, most considerate, most practical kid on Earth. Please excuse me if I'm being too picky, ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Sep 1995 17:14:09 -0400 (EDT) From: Adrienne York To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: SPOILER ALERT: OK, a new thread... Message-ID: On Tue, 12 Sep 1995, Aphrael wrote: > This involves discussion of both _Storm Warning_ and _Storm Rising_, > soooo...... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > OK, how many votes for the missing consort of Vkandis being the > Star-Eyed herself, our very own Kal'enel? Now, I don't have my copy > of SW in front of me, but I think Karal referred to the consort, > whose worship had disappeared right about when the Son of the Sun > became corrupt, as Kalenel. And in the song appendix to _Oathbound_, > Misty refers to a male diety worshipped by the Shin'a'in. He seems > to be kind of overlooked, and we never catch his name. Finally, I > just ran across something in SR that was quite interesting. On p. > 328, when Karal is describing Solaris at her most formal (and angry), > he lists her various titles: Son of the Sun, Defender of the > Faithful, and *Falcon of Light*. > > Any thoughts? > > Lyn > I've got one for you Lyn. I haven't read SR, but I did read SW. I noticed that too. Here's something you didn't pick up. Vkandis' consort was called Kalanel. Now, in Oathbreakers, when Tarma calls on the Star Eyed, doesn't she call Her Kalanel? I don't remember for absolute certain sure, but I'm almost positive. I'd check myself, but I don't have the book. :( I think you're on to something, Lyn. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Sep 1995 15:03:40 -0700 From: Jean Morrill To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Fetching Message-ID: <199509122203.PAA11955-+AT+-virgo.hwr.arizona.edu> > Type 1: Fetching involving dematerialization > Examples: The type Altra does with his own body (between Karse and > Valdamar), Dirk's fetching of Ylsa's arrows at the end of Arrows of the > Queen, Dirk fetching Talia at the end of Arrow's fall, ect..... > > Type 2: No dematerialization > Example: Tashir levitating furniture at Vanyel's house in LHM, Yfandes > fetching her own body to travel faster with Stefen on her back also in LHM, > ect..... Or to use "scientific" terms, teleportation vs. telekinetics. Two different, but related skills. 1) Teleportation (Fetching, Jumping) 2) Telekinesis (less common in Valdemar, in seems, very common in Anne McCaffrey Pegasus/Rowan books) also in evidence in Valdemar 3) Telepathy (Mindspeech) 4) Empathy 5) Applied telekinetics (Healing. And I don't think this is too much of a stretch. Maybe Firestarting too.) 6) Projection/Projective Empathy (part of the Bardic Gift, also a skill that the bandit in Oathbound had). Jean (maybe I am taking too many engineering and physics courses) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Sep 1995 16:20:56 -0700 (PDT) From: Michelle Kristen Henderson To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Firecats Message-ID: On Tue, 12 Sep 1995, Adrienne York wrote: > > > On Tue, 12 Sep 1995, Jennifer S. Broekman wrote: > > > William Jones wrote: > > >Shay'Kreth'Ashke (Sp?) (for those not fluent in Teledras it loosely > > >translates to "lifebonded").... Bravo! > > > > Shay'kreth'ashke is 'same-sex lifebonded'. Ashke is 'beloved'. My > > guess is that kreth'ashke is 'lifebonded', but I don't remember it > > ever being used in the books. > > > > -jenneke > > > > I *am* family. How could I not have family values? > > Only Boys Accepting Feminism Get Kissed Meaningfully -- Geoff Marcy > > The only unnatural sexual act is that which you cannot perform. -Alfred Kinsey > > broekman-+AT+-sparky.phast.umass.edu | http://www-astro.phast.umass.edu/gs/jenn.html > > > jenneke, are you sure about that. It seems to me that shay'kreth'ashke > *is* life-bonded. I think it probably means something like "beloved who > is the other half of one's self." I think this because I'm sure I > remember shay'kreth'ashke referring to a m/f couple. Also, shay'a'chern > was translated by 'Lendel as roughly "one who's lover is like self, with > a sexual connotation on self, to indicate that it's not incest or other, > similar interests." So my feeling on this one, and it's pure feeling, > is that shay is self, and a denotes sexuality. Tell me what you think. > > I have to agree with Adrienne, I seem to remember somewhere that same referance to a m/f couple, of course I can't think of it and don't have my books with me. All I know is that I always got the feeling that shay'kreth'ashke refered to the bond and not the sex of the people involved in it. Can anyone find the reference, just for interests sake? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Sep 95 10:16:58 EST From: mealink-+AT+-syd.au.swissbank.com (Kerry Mealing) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Fetching generally. Message-ID: <9509130016.AA09592-+AT+-syd.au.swissbank.com> Kathy wrote: > It seems to me that when the books refer to fetching, they refer to at least > two different types: > > Type 1: Fetching involving dematerialization > Examples: The type Altra does with his own body (between Karse and > Valdamar), Dirk's fetching of Ylsa's arrows at the end of Arrows of the > Queen, Dirk fetching Talia at the end of Arrow's fall, ect..... > > Type 2: No dematerialization > Example: Tashir levitating furniture at Vanyel's house in LHM, Yfandes > fetching her own body to travel faster with Stefen on her back also in LHM, > ect..... I agree with the types completely. :) I somehow got the impression though that Yfandes was in fact dematerializing, which was why Stefen got that 'lurching' impression and Yfandes' stride broke occasionally. Think run-fetch-run-fetch-run-fetch "whoa, we're here".. That was the original reason I thought Yfandes' grove-born. Even with a full power fetching gift backed by the nodes, a herald couldn't do that. (Remember, Dirk, with a powerful fetching gift backed by umpteen companions just managed to fetch Talia. Now fetching yourself is harder supposedly and Yfandes was fetching herself & stefan all by her little lonesome. If she was a herald, not grove-born, she must have had one heck of a powerful gift. On the gifts generally - remember, as Kathy said - they're generalized into groups. So fetching is of the same family as fire-starting. Just because Van had a fetching gift, it doesn't necessarily imply that he had the fire-starting subcomponent. If he had, it might have been useful - while his Mage-gift was outstanding, in some cases it would have been easier to use his mind-magic gifts. If he had firestarting, he could have taken out Krebain (sp?) at the end of Magic's Price without the node (assuming he had enough personal energy left). Actually, that's a very very scary thought - an gifted Fire-starter, with far-sight, who can back his fire-starting gift with adept-level power. And you thought Leareth was bad.. Even the supposedly standard gifts like mind-speaking come in various personal variations - remember the guy Kethry put the full senses women illusion on? His gift of appearing familiar was a mind-speaking variant. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Sep 1995 19:09:48 -0600 (MDT) From: Elise M Packee To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Don't know if this has been mentioned in LHM thread Message-ID: Okay... one thing that caught my attention was the breif mention of firestarting as one of Van's gift. I do not remember who mentioned it, one thing though is did anyone else pick up a teeny discreptancy? In Magic's Promise, Van uses his miniscule healing gift to give the Bardic-gifted Medren (sp?) the chicken pox (or the valdenmarean counterpart). WEll, that always struck me as od because in Magic's Pawn when Andrel and Savil are checking out Van after his gifts are blasted open, it is clearly stated that all channels with the exception of HEALING were open to their widest extent (notice no "" marks. I couldn't remeber the exact quote.) Also in this same area it is stated that Bardic channels were opened too. BUt in Magic's Promise, Van tells his nephew that: he could never play like Medren, no matter how much he practiced. THe Bardic gift was never mentioned again. Aimless ramblings... Elise (who, also, does not have a nifty sign-off) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Sep 1995 19:16:27 -0600 (MDT) From: Elise M Packee To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: LHM (SPOILER) Message-ID: about yfandes being grove-born... In a recent book (knowing my memory that could be in either Arrow's Fall, or in one of the Mage winds books) \ It is stated clearly that 'fandes was grove-born. Thinking about it In fact I think it was in the _Winds of Fury_ in the scene with the ghost (purosefully ambiguous for those who have not read it yet) and ELspeth is very shocked. Do not quote me on that as the right place because my books are in Alaska (and I am in Montana) *Pout, briefly at the unfairness of that* anyway Elise ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Sep 1995 19:25:53 -0600 (MDT) From: Elise M Packee To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: oops... Message-ID: I have just managed to put my two cents in where they were obviously not needed. THe questions have already been answered...gosh I feel sheepish, (hey does anyone know how to put the list in digest form?) I promise now to read all of the messages before I juam my two cents in... sorry for the wasted bandwidth, Elise ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Sep 1995 21:47:36 -0400 (EDT) From: asquires-+AT+-dolphin.upenn.edu (Allison Squires) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: SPOILER ALERT: OK, a new thread... Message-ID: <199509130147.VAA17807-+AT+-dolphin.upenn.edu> yes, I would say that Star-Eyed is the counterpart to Vkandis. The legends and typical hints that tend to fall in the books would only make this a logical theme. However (just for a twist) what about in Oathbound or Oathbreakers (can't remember which one) when Kethry meets the star eyed and she tells her that she is no different from her own god Astera? Therefore, does that mean that all of the people in the general region of Valdemar and beyond are somehow ancestrally related to a common people--aside from the Kaled'a'in? Sure, we see this in the Gryphon books but how would that explain the other countries outside the area of the Mage Wars that would have suffered the effects of the cataclysm at its worst? Virtual food for thought... Sunwing ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Sep 1995 22:32:20 -0400 From: SariKr-+AT+-aol.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: LHM (SPOILER) Message-ID: <950912223208_97973037-+AT+-emout04.mail.aol.com> SPOILER>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kerry Wrote: >It grates very much on me for a herald's death to be known and >planned >by the powers that be - intensely so - the whole point of the heralds >and the mentality behind all the >gods/goddesses/avatars/manifestations of >the 'Light' is that it is *not* *not* *not* ok to sacrifice one person >for the good of the many. Note the difference between "I choose to >sacrifice myself to save thousands" and "We choose to sacrifice >*you* to >save thousands". Small syntactically, enormous philosophically. >Yes, it was ironic and tragic. >No, Tylendel did *not* have to die (apart from the requirements of >dramatic >narrative) for Vanyel to become whom he did. I think I have to disagree here it would be to easy to say it was a coincidence (sp). There is too many parrellels between the Vanyel/Lendal relationship and the Vanyel/Stefan relation. With Vanyel changing places and taking the leadership role in the second. If Lendal is Stef then I would say that the work he does after Vanyel's death would right the "wrong" that he did in gaining his revenge. Maybe this is why the Companions rang the death bell for him and saw to it he was buried with honors, his work was yet undone. Jenneke wrote: -snip- >I also don't think that visitting with 'Lendel's >spirit immediately after 'Lendel's death would have given Van >closure, >since he was still mostly suicidal. In the half year or so that it >takes Van to get to the point where he understands the Heraldic >compulsion, I think 'Lendel/Stef was out of ghostly circulation again >and unavailable until 'triggered' again by intimate contact. When Van met with the Shadowdancer it was at least 10 years after Lendal's death he was 25 or 28 years old when Jayse was killed. Near the end of the second book when the bloodmagic spell was released on him. So I would think that if 'Lendal's spirit was there to say goodbye it would have been as good a time as any. Lill ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Sep 1995 23:00:05 -0400 From: SariKr-+AT+-aol.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: LHM (SPOILER) Message-ID: <950912225614_97994312-+AT+-mail04.mail.aol.com> Catherine Osborn writes: >Hmmm...what about Yfandes being Grove-Born, and had lived for >some >time to get the experience needed? Just some wild >thoughts....cause I l>ike the idea..... I agree. When Yfandes chose Vaynel Savil and the others were shocked and one of the things she says is that Yfandes has run alone for over 10 years. At this time there were tons of trainees in the collegium if Yfandes wasn't waiting for someone special that only she could provide the right "help" for why hadn't she chosen in the previous years???? I (IMHO) think that Vanyel needed Yfande's and her "special" gifts. Does this point her towards being grove born?? Lill ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Sep 1995 23:17:28 -0400 (EDT) From: Adrienne York To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: LHM (SPOILER) Message-ID: ;];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];] ;] Adrienne York-Minor ;] ;] "May your life be interesting" potent Shin'a'in curse ;] ;] ayork-+AT+-plato.simons-rock.edu ;] ;];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];] On Tue, 12 Sep 1995 RUNDLE-+AT+-wilma.bcasd.az.honeywell.com wrote: (snip) > Perhaps there are even companions that never find their herald. I find it > extremely distasteful to imagine that for every companion there is definitely > a > herald, since that speaks to an extraordinary amount of meddling on the parts > of > the god/goddess or whoever oversees Valdemar, since they have to look into the > future and determine that so-and-so who will be born in 5 years will become a > herald, and therefore such and such companion must be born to become that > future > heralds companion. Blech. I despise that idea. It removes all possibilities > of > personal will. > (end snip) Not necessarily. Perhaps the gods could see in very broad futures. "There is going to be big trouble in Valdemar in 1700 AF." Nothing specific, just bad for Valdemar. So from 1680-1690 AF there's a large rise in Companion births. No one Companion is attached to any one future-Herald, but there are more. Then, when the trouble is over, if there is a large number of Companions that haven't Chosen, births drop off. Using this sort of a system, knowing in broad terms how many Heralds are needed, controlling the number of Companion births to match, the gods needn't interfere much, but can still keep up with the demand. My sig went to the top, and I can't figure out why, ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Sep 1995 10:33:02 -0500 From: h-wilfehrt-+AT+-nwu.edu (Helen M. Wilfehrt) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: LHM (SPOILER) Message-ID: <199509130333.AA011003181-+AT+-casbah.acns.nwu.edu> >Okay, given the current discussion, how about this question: > >what's the difference between a grove-born and "regular" companion? > >what special powers do grove-born have? > > > >To be honest, I really think that Misty threw in that bit about the >next MO being chosen but not bonded, and then being re-chosen by >the MOC, and then changed her mind. It just doesn't hold water >when you put it next to everything else we know about h-c bonding. > >We never ever see that occur in any of the books. It's exclusively >a side-bar. The one time when it could have applied, with Jisa, >she is *not* chosen before she becomes MO, unless it happened after >the books ending. We know she's unchosen, but will be chosen by the >MOC after her mother dies. The imminent death of Randal made the subterfuge of a substitute Companion to the presumed MO, Jisa, unnecessary. As to it being possible, there are many Monarch's in between those we have seen (only 3 in actuality - Elspeth when Vanyel was Chosen, Randale, and Selenay) where it may have happened. One particular case scenario would be where the MO is getting quite elderly and the situation in Valdemar is tense, having the next MO already in training would be quite useful. >The other possibility is that the "choosing" of a future MO by a >non-MOC companion is very much like the Florian-Karal relationship. >The companion doesn't bond or really choose the future MO, just becomes >associated with the future MO so that he/she can be inducted into >the herald training program. This is my own interpretion for this scenario. Helen h-wilfehrt-+AT+-nwu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Sep 1995 23:45:47 -0400 (EDT) From: "Angela M." To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Talia in Karse Message-ID: On Tue, 12 Sep 1995, Helen M. Wilfehrt wrote: > Talia going to Karse happened in the Winds books. This was one of the > messages passed on via Gwena's contacting Rolan, mentioned in the 2nd Winds > book. In the last Winds book, Kero gives a sketch of how Karse first made > contact with Alberich, who initiated the dealings with Karse. Talia ended > up going to Karse as Selenay's representative to make the Treaty with them. > She ended up being made a Sun Priestess of Karse - why is described in Storm > Warning. Some more details are described in Storm Warning - more from the > Karsite perspective- but they aren't all that much of a Spoiler. > > It does sound like good material for its own story but as far as a know it > hasn't been told in anything other than as second hand stories told by other > characters in ML's books. Maybe it will come out in some anthologies like > those tales of how Tarma and Kethry met. I remember it being mentioned in the Winds books, but even then it was another one of those situations where I felt like I'd missed something... *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* Angela M. Murray |"Darkness has a hunger that's Nazareth College of Rochester, NY |insatiable, and lightness has a call Art Education * (ammurray-+AT+-orion.naz.edu)|that's hard to hear..." -I. Girls *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* ___ ___ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Sep 95 13:50:56 EST From: mealink-+AT+-syd.au.swissbank.com (Kerry Mealing) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Van's gifts. Message-ID: <9509130350.AA11121-+AT+-syd.au.swissbank.com> Elise wrote: > Okay... > one thing that caught my attention was the breif mention of firestarting > as one of Van's gift. I do not remember who mentioned it, one > thing though is did anyone else pick up a teeny discreptancy? Just read the bit in Magic's Promise about Van's gifts - I'd misremembered the bit about firestarting. He is in fact slightly gifted with firestarting. (Of course, for a mage, a minimal fire-starting gift is pretty redundant, given that a fire-starting spell is the first thing they learn). Wandering into the realms of conjecture, it'd be ironic if Van was in fact a descendant of Maar but couldn't be possessed because he never used the fire-starting spell but rather relied on his own fire-starting gift. I think the timing's wrong, but I can never resist a what-if. :) > In Magic's Promise, Van uses his miniscule healing gift to give the > Bardic-gifted Medren (sp?) the chicken pox (or the valdenmarean > counterpart). WEll, that always struck me as od because in Magic's Pawn > when Andrel and Savil are checking out Van after his gifts are blasted > open, it is clearly stated that all channels with the exception of > HEALING were open to their widest extent (notice no "" marks. I couldn't > remeber the exact quote.) Yeup. As in, most of his channels were wide open, with the exception of healing which was minimally open.. The most-of-his-channels-are-wide-open bit is misleading I think. It probably should be read as 'all of his potential gifts have been blasted open to their fullest potential'. Savil says he has as much empathy as Tylendel, ie marginal. His healing and firestarting gifts are also marginal. It's implied that he has four powerful gifts - fetching, mindspeech (both kinds), farsight, foresight and one very powerful gift, mage-gift. I think those four gifts are the most common and so the heralds tend to concentrate on them more than the other rarer ones. > Also in this same area it is stated that Bardic channels were > opened too. BUt in Magic's Promise, Van tells his nephew that: he could > never play like Medren, no matter how much he practiced. THe Bardic gift > was never mentioned again. I don't know for this one. Mistake by Misty? Possible, but unlikely in this case I think. Van lying politely? Unlikely. Van not knowing? Possible but unlikely. (He's a *mage*. They take inventory.) Perhaps Van just didn't have *as strong* a Bardic gift and that's what he meant. On that gift, I've never really been able to come up with a distinction between Bardic Gift and Empathy, apart from the fact that Bardic Gift only manifests with music. > Aimless ramblings... More aimless ramblings. Comments? Kerry. -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -- Kerry J Mealing mealink-+AT+-syd.au.swissbank.com "For the song and the sword and the pipes of pan, Are birthrights sold to a usurer; But I am the last lone highwayman, And I am the last adventurer." ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Sep 1995 07:52:33 -0400 (EDT) From: Rosario Holsen-Baker To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: LHM (SPOILER) Message-ID: On Wed, 13 Sep 1995, Elise M Packee wrote: > about yfandes being grove-born... > > In a recent book (knowing my memory that could be in either Arrow's Fall, > or in one of the Mage winds books) \ > > It is stated clearly that 'fandes was grove-born. Thinking about it In > fact I think it was in the _Winds of Fury_ in the scene with the ghost > (purosefully ambiguous for those who have not read it yet) and ELspeth is > very shocked. Do not quote me on that as the right place because my > books are in Alaska (and I am in Montana) *Pout, briefly at the > unfairness of that* > > anyway > > Elise No, it said that Yfandes was taking aside Gwena to speak to her, and cited the reason that (approximate quote): "for all that she is Grove-born, she forgets that she has no real human experience" Also, Vanyel states every once in a while (in _Promise_ I think at one point) that he sometimes sees 'Fandes as a lovely, wise woman flickering in and out with a white horse. I took that to mean that 'Fandes had actually been a Herald at some time. Anyone else? --Jaguar-- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Sep 1995 07:53:51 -0400 (EDT) From: Rosario Holsen-Baker To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: oops... Message-ID: On Wed, 13 Sep 1995, Elise M Packee wrote: > > I have just managed to put my two cents in where they were obviously not > needed. THe questions have already been answered...gosh I feel sheepish, > (hey does anyone know how to put the list in digest form?) > > I promise now to read all of the messages before I juam my two cents in... > > sorry for the wasted bandwidth, > > Elise > Whooops! Same for me, I can only read my mail about two times a day at most, and that leaves me behind on a lot. --Jaguar-- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Sep 1995 08:49:01 -0400 From: joan_ferguson-+AT+-harvard.edu (Joan Ferguson) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Shay'kreth'ashke etc. Message-ID: <199509131249.IAA05509-+AT+-elmer.Harvard.EDU> >> > Shay'kreth'ashke is 'same-sex lifebonded'. Ashke is 'beloved'. My >> > guess is that kreth'ashke is 'lifebonded', but I don't remember it >> > ever being used in the books. >> > >> jenneke, are you sure about that. It seems to me that shay'kreth'ashke >> *is* life-bonded. I think it probably means something like "beloved who >> is the other half of one's self." I think this because I'm sure I >> remember shay'kreth'ashke referring to a m/f couple. Also, shay'a'chern >> was translated by 'Lendel as roughly "one who's lover is like self, with >> a sexual connotation on self, to indicate that it's not incest or other, >> similar interests." So my feeling on this one, and it's pure feeling, >> is that shay is self, and a denotes sexuality. Tell me what you think. >> >I have to agree with Adrienne, I seem to remember somewhere that same >referance to a m/f couple, of course I can't think of it and don't have >my books with me. All I know is that I always got the feeling that >shay'kreth'ashke refered to the bond and not the sex of the people >involved in it. Can anyone find the reference, just for interests sake? I don't have the answer (sorry!) but I do have a related question: What do you think the connection between shay'a'chern and kestr'a'chern is? If shay is "self," and basically a'chern or 'chern is "lover", what is kestr (or kestr'a)? Healer/healing? I think I remember shay'kreth'ashke meaning simply "lifebonded", but if I had my books here at work to check up on all of these things, I'd get *nothing* done, as opposed to very little :-) Joan joan_ferguson-+AT+-harvard.edu Harvard University Library Preservation Office 59 Plympton Street Cambridge MA 02138 "Instead of loving your enemies,treat your friends a little better." -Edgar Watson Howe (1853-1937) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Sep 1995 09:06:35 -0400 From: heb4-+AT+-cornell.edu To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Van's gifts. Message-ID: Regarding Van's gifts, an extra one /did/ get tossed in there between Magic's Pawn and Magic's Promise...When Savil first checks Van for gifts after the Gate energy has backlashed through him, it says something along the lines of "Savil had seen Heralds with one, two, or most commonly no Gifts. Van had them all. With the sole exception of Healing, she could see that he had the all-important Mage-gift, Farsight, and Foresight; his Mindspeech was even of both kinds, Sending and Receiving; he had enough Firestarting to ensure he'd never have to use tinder again. And wonder of wonders, as if the gods were taking with one hand and offering a pittance as compensation, the boy even had the Bardic Gift." A bit mangled--it's not exactly an exact quote (my books are loaned out right now :), but...Then by the time Magic's Pawn rolls around, the Bardic Gift is never mentioned again, but Van has enough Healing to give Medren a mild illness to keep him out of Jervis' kindly eye, healing which is later used in Magic's Price to stabilize Van after his run-in with Master Dark's servants. Concerning Van as a descendant of Ma'ar--rememeber that Van does use his Firestarting: in Magic's Price Van uses his Firestarting to light the candles whenever he enters a darkened room. More specifically, I think I remember him doing this in an inn while he and Stefen are trying to track down Leareth--but I could be recalling that incorrectly. And the Companions...having a special gift doesn't necessarily make one a Grove-born. Yfandes and Van talked about that once after Tashir had been Chosen--'Fandes tells Van that Ghost, Tashir's Companion, is Gifted with MindHealing. When Van expresses surprise, 'Fandes rather shortly informs him that such Gifts happen when needed--that Companions will have specific Gifts pertinent to their Heralds. So I don't think that Yfandes having special gifts for Van indicates that she is Grove-born. Sorry to have gone on at such length with my $.02... :) Elizabeth. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Sep 1995 6:53:42 -0600 (MDT) From: RUNDLE-+AT+-wilma.bcasd.az.honeywell.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: LHM (SPOILER) Message-ID: <950913065342.21a105ff-+AT+-wilma.bcasd.az.honeywell.com> Jaguar writes: > No, it said that Yfandes was taking aside Gwena to speak to her, >and cited the reason that (approximate quote): "for all that she is >Grove-born, she forgets that she has no real human experience" > Also, Vanyel states every once in a while (in _Promise_ I think >at one point) that he sometimes sees 'Fandes as a lovely, wise woman >flickering in and out with a white horse. I took that to mean that >'Fandes had actually been a Herald at some time. Anyone else? I thought that Van is just more perceptive than most. All companions are other than what they seem. I agree that I assumed that Van was seeing Yfandes as she was, as a herald. Whereas Gwena as seen by the mage in Winds (was it Quentin?) was a guardian spirit so bright he could hardly look at her. And Skif's Cymry was a far lesser light. So my supposition is that grove-born are guardian spirits, while non-grove-born are former heralds reincarnate. They are guardian spirits, but not of the same order. And Yfandes was able to use some of her mage talents that she had when she was a herald, because in Vanyel's time magery was accepted and known, while Gwena can't use much if any, because magery is not accepted in this time. And then again, you have Savil (Kero's companion) who does whatever she pleases. Anyway, I've rambled on. My point is, that the "talents" of individual companions may have little to do with whether they are grove-born. I guess that grove-born are able to tap more easily for power, but companions like Savil and Yfandes (who were probably fairly powerful mages when they were heralds) also have pretty great powers, perhaps to the point where it's difficult to tell them from grove-born. Leading right back to the question, what the heck is so darn special about grove-born companions? And finally, I think that a companion lives as long as their herald. If the herald is a mage, such as Sayvil, or Elspeth, and lives for 100 years, then so does the companion. But, being heralds, odds are they never live longer than your regular non-mage herald. Companions are NOT horses. They are clearly not limited to the, what, 20 - 30 years of a horse. After all, heralds are chosen in their teens, and some, like Jadus live until old age. True, his companion "aged" with him, but couldn't that be simply illusion? Or perhaps companions life-spans are approx that of a normal human. Then you have to wonder, what happens to a herald who is a mage, therefore lives longer than average humans, whose companion dies at the ripe old age of 90? Does the herald "pine away"? Enough speculation. I can't wait for Storm Breaking. A whole year! Argh. I may have to buy Fire Rose sometime in the next few months just so I don't go nuts! StarWolf (who feels she threw in at least $5 of ramblings, and would like back at least $4 in change, thank you very much) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Sep 1995 14:08:18 +0000 (GMT) From: jc-+AT+-crosfield.co.uk (Jerry Cullingford) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: LHM(SPOILER) Message-ID: <9509131408.AA00280-+AT+-crosfield.co.uk> > Companions only choose people with Gifts. As Vanyel had only potential > when he came to Haven, Yfandes wouldn't have chosen him if he'd been the > nicest, most considerate, most practical kid on Earth. Hmm. They certainly don't only choose people with *active* gifts; if you look at _Arrows of the Queen_ that seems to be the exception rather than the rule. If I remember correctly, most peoples Gifts develop *after* they've been chosen for a while (with a nudge from the companions, perhaps?). Whether that's different from Van's case, I'm not sure - maybe there's a distinction between [has potential for gift] [has gift but isn't active] and [has active gift] :-). -- _|_ / | Jerry Cullingford jc-+AT+-crosfield.co.uk (Work) \_|_ jc-+AT+-selune.demon.co.uk (Home) \__/ Hemel Hempstead, UK jerry-+AT+-shell.portal.com (alternate) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Sep 1995 10:11:19 EST From: "Aphrael" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: SR tied into the LHM thread... Message-ID: Ok, this is the way this one works: if you don't want to know ANYTHING about SR, delete here. However, I don't give away any plot points, I just use some extraneous evidence in SR to counter the Yfandes-as-grove-born argument. Decide what you will. :) Elise: >> It is stated clearly that 'fandes was grove-born. Thinking about it In >> fact I think it was in the _Winds of Fury_ in the scene with the ghost >> (purosefully ambiguous for those who have not read it yet) and ELspeth is >> very shocked. Do not quote me on that as the right place because my >> books are in Alaska (and I am in Montana) *Pout, briefly at the >> unfairness of that* Jaguar: > No, it said that Yfandes was taking aside Gwena to speak to her, >and cited the reason that (approximate quote): "for all that she is >Grove-born, she forgets that she has no real human experience" > Also, Vanyel states every once in a while (in _Promise_ I think >at one point) that he sometimes sees 'Fandes as a lovely, wise woman >flickering in and out with a white horse. I took that to mean that >'Fandes had actually been a Herald at some time. Anyone else? This is not the only time we see this "double vision." In Storm Rising, the first time Karal lets Florian behind his barriers, he ....for a moment experienced a very curious double image, the "Florian" he knew superimposed over a young man about his own age, thin, earnest, with dark hair and eyes, dressed in Herald's Whites. Also, I think that assuming Yfandes to be grove born takes away from her sacrifice and hard work with Van. Besides, unlike Gwena, whom people just kind of remembered as being in the background, Yfandes seemed to be pretty well known to the Collegium. Mardic knows who she is immediately, and Savil, upon hearing that 'Fandes chose Van, is incredulous, saying something like, "the only Companion who hasn't Chosen in over ten years picked NOW to do it?!" (Major paraphrase there, sorry.) Besides, Yfandes foaled twice, but I've been talking to another person on the list, and he has more with that. Well, that's my two cents. Later- Lyn I am an idealist. | /> Lynore M. Belzer I don't know where | /< 716/379-3034 lbelzer-+AT+-sbu.edu I'm going, but I'm | -+AT+-}XXXXX(-+AT+-):::<=====================- on my way. | \< St. Bonaventure University -Carl Sandburg. | \> aka Aphrael/Sephrenia ___________________|__________________________________________________ As I lay me down to sleep, this I pray: that you will hold me dear, though I'm far away... Sophie B. Hawkins. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Sep 1995 11:45:15 -0400 From: juniper-+AT+-olaf.wellesley.edu (Anne Cross) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: I'm back...um Message-ID: <9509131545.AA10073-+AT+-olaf.wellesley.edu> I remember you Jaguar. Welcome back. :) I too have a nonexistant book budget, most of my finances going toward getting my computer to work properly at the moment, so if anyone wants to loan me their copies...? (Hopeful grin.) I'm in the Boston area. :) Anne juniper-+AT+-olaf.wellesley.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Sep 1995 12:00:10 -0400 From: juniper-+AT+-olaf.wellesley.edu (Anne Cross) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Van's gifts. Message-ID: <9509131600.AA10096-+AT+-olaf.wellesley.edu> (I can't get the quoter to work yet...) There's a very simple reason Vanyel cannot play as well as Medren. His broken arm never healed properly, remember? And although he has the Gift, he hasn't got nearly the time to practice, nor can he totally compensate for the loss of the feeling in his fingers. Anne juniper-+AT+-olaf.wellesley.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Sep 1995 9:32:33 -0600 (MDT) From: RUNDLE-+AT+-wilma.bcasd.az.honeywell.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: re: LHM(SPOILER) Message-ID: <950913093233.21a105ff-+AT+-wilma.bcasd.az.honeywell.com> >Companions only choose people with Gifts. As Vanyel had only potential >when he came to Haven, Yfandes wouldn't have chosen him if he'd been the >nicest, most considerate, most practical kid on Earth. >Please excuse me if I'm being too picky, Excuse me for being picky, but companions choose people with potential gifts. Untrained gifts. But more importantly, with the right attitude. Many of the minor characters are fairly ungifted, but have the right attitude. Besides, didn't it say somewhere that companions bring out latent gifts? Certainly they strenghten existing gifts (remember during Talia's training, they told her that to get her gift to work, she had to spend lots of time bonding with Rolan? something like that. I'll have to look it up to get something more specific). Vanyel certainly had latent gifts. But he was a spoiled, hurt, self-involved brat. And he wasn't herald material at that time. StarWolf ------------------------------ End of MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 137 *********************************