MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 139 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Need's god(esse)s by Vivian Choh 2) MO and Old Companions (was LHM (SPOILER)...I think) by duvall.23-+AT+-postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu (Stacy Hunt DuVall) 3) Need's Dieties (II) by Vivian Choh 4) Re: LHM (SPOILER) by Ina Faye-Lund 5) Re: LHM (SPOILER) by Ina Faye-Lund 6) Re: Don't know if this has been mentioned in LHM thread by Ina Faye-Lund 7) Re: LHM (SPOILER) by Ina Faye-Lund 8) Re: LHM(SPOILER) by Ina Faye-Lund 9) Re: Monarchs Own by jc-+AT+-crosfield.co.uk (Jerry Cullingford) 10) Re: Just finished Magic's Price. by Ina Faye-Lund 11) What if .... by mel (Melanie Dymond Harper) 12) Re: LHM (SPOILER) by Catherine Osborne 13) Re: SR tied into the LHM thread... by Catherine Osborne 14) Re: LHM (SPOILER) by "Aphrael" 15) Re: What if .... by Catherine Osborne 16) Re: What if .... by "Aphrael" 17) Re: SR tied into the LHM thread... by "Edward B. Adams" 18) Re: David Bahrke wxav85d-+AT+-prodigy.com by "Edward B. Adams" 19) RE: Need's Deities by RUNDLE-+AT+-wilma.bcasd.az.honeywell.com 20) Re: Monarchs Own by RUNDLE-+AT+-wilma.bcasd.az.honeywell.com 21) Re: What if .... by "Edward B. Adams" 22) Re: Need's Dieties (II) by "Aphrael" 23) Translations (was Re: Firecats) by Gyrfalcon 24) Re: LHM (SPOILER) by "Jennifer S. Broekman" 25) Re: SPOILERS. Re: Common Deities by "Jennifer S. Broekman" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 14 Sep 1995 00:51:28 -0400 (EDT) From: Vivian Choh To: Mercedes Lackey mailing list Subject: Need's god(esse)s Message-ID: Hi all, Gryfalcon mentioned something about Need's deities (sp?) being pairs of twins...I was recently re-reading Winds II, (and of course cannot localise the exact quote) but I thought that the deities were ONE pair of twins. Can anyone find that first descriptions of Need's deities? It doesn't help that the quotes that I can find always say "the Twins", which can mean either!! Vivian Choh bi189-+AT+-torfree.net v.choh-+AT+-utoronto.ca "I am all that I claim to be. I simply have not claimed all that I am." - M. Lackey, "Oathbreakers" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Sep 1995 00:54:08 -0400 From: duvall.23-+AT+-postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu (Stacy Hunt DuVall) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: MO and Old Companions (was LHM (SPOILER)...I think) Message-ID: <199509140454.AAA17424-+AT+-postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu> My $0.02... When a new MO's chosen from someone who is a herald already or is about to become a herald, I don't think the old Companion dies or suicides. Death of a herald and repudiation are abrupt, unplanned things that result in a "rift" in the Companion that can't be healed. As far as Choosing a new MO, I think that it's a far more "civil" affair where everything can be put in order emotionally and intellectually so there won't be such a shock when the new Choosing takes place. I think that the "old" Companion would be able to continue living, and choose another herald. Just my thoughts...I finally felt that I had something to say :-). Stacy Hunt DuVall duvall.23-+AT+-osu.edu "My brain is the most important thing I have...but look what told me that" --? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Sep 1995 01:36:32 -0400 (EDT) From: Vivian Choh To: Mercedes Lackey mailing list Subject: Need's Dieties (II) Message-ID: Hi again all, Well I checked through my Winds books again, and Gryfalcon was correct. Need's deities (from Winds I) are two sets of twins (Kerenal, Dina, Karanel, Dara) who were/are? Healer, Crafter, fighter and hunter. So I stand (well sit) corrected! BTW do the four aspects of the Shin'a'in goddess match any of the above "occupations"? And one more question: What happened to these twin gods? Do god(esse)s "die" if there is no one left to worship them? Vivian Choh bi189-+AT+-torfree.net v.choh-+AT+-utoronto.ca "I am all that I claim to be. I simply have not claimed all that I am." - M. Lackey, "Oathbreakers" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Sep 1995 09:20:56 +0200 From: Ina Faye-Lund To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: LHM (SPOILER) Message-ID: <199509140720.266.gjalp.ifi.uio.no-+AT+-ifi.uio.no> On Tue, 12 Sep 1995 09:49:44 +0100, "Scarlett E. Blizzard" said: > <> > "Jenneke" wrote: > I don't think that Yfandes was Grove-born. First, because it took > Rolan calling for most of a night for Gwena to arrive for Elspeth, and > no Companion, much less Taver, had that kind of time when Van needed a > Companion *now*. Now, don't forget that Yfandes had been around for some ten years, at least enough to foal twice. :=) IFL ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Sep 1995 09:33:38 +0200 From: Ina Faye-Lund To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: LHM (SPOILER) Message-ID: <199509140733.994.gjalp.ifi.uio.no-+AT+-ifi.uio.no> On Tue, 12 Sep 1995 15:50:05 +0100, RUNDLE-+AT+-wilma.bcasd.az.honeywell.com said: > I was very interested in the discussion on Yfandes being grove-born. > None of the opinions expressed had ever occurred to me. They way I > saw it, Vanyel was a channel (sort of like Karal, but not as > strong). He was a channel that was tapable by Tylendel. When the > EVENT occured, his channels were all blown open, and he became a > great Herald-Mage. But I really think none of it was foreseen, and > Vanyel was an accident of the circumstances. Then why did Vanyel have that dream even _before_ Tylendel died? He _did_ have a dream that seemed very much like Foreseeing, didn't he? > Perhaps there are even companions that never find their herald. I > find it extremely distasteful to imagine that for every companion > there is definitely a herald, since that speaks to an extraordinary > amount of meddling on the parts of the god/goddess or whoever > oversees Valdemar, since they have to look into the future and > determine that so-and-so who will be born in 5 years will become a > herald, and therefore such and such companion must be born to become > that future heralds companion. Blech. I despise that idea. It > removes all possibilities of personal will. I think that usually there are a lot of worthy persons who don't get Chosen. But I also think that there are special cases. One of them is Yfandes, another is Gwena. > So I think Van was an accident, and only Yfandes realized he needed > help, and stepped in, knowing that AT THAT POINT he was very worthy > to become a herald. No, I don't agree. I think Yfandes was waiting for him, knowing parts of what would happen, at least. Thing is, had things happened differently, Tylendel and Vanyel could both have lived to become Herald-Mages. Maybe it was no more than Yfandes knowing that _something_ would open Vanyel's channels, but I still think she knew more or less who she was waiting for. She might not even have known his name, but I think she was waiting for someone special. JMHO, -- IFL Elen síla lümenn' omentielvo ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Sep 1995 09:36:47 +0200 From: Ina Faye-Lund To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Don't know if this has been mentioned in LHM thread Message-ID: <199509140736.1120.gjalp.ifi.uio.no-+AT+-ifi.uio.no> On Wed, 13 Sep 1995 02:51:14 +0100, Elise M Packee said: > Also in this same area it is stated that Bardic channels were > opened too. BUt in Magic's Promise, Van tells his nephew that: he could > never play like Medren, no matter how much he practiced. THe Bardic gift > was never mentioned again. Well, don't forget that part of what stuns Vanyel when he first hears Medren play, is the _strength_ of is Gift. -- IFL Elen síla lümenn' omentielvo ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Sep 1995 09:38:18 +0200 From: Ina Faye-Lund To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: LHM (SPOILER) Message-ID: <199509140738.1160.gjalp.ifi.uio.no-+AT+-ifi.uio.no> On Wed, 13 Sep 1995 05:07:00 +0100, SariKr-+AT+-aol.com said: > I agree. When Yfandes chose Vaynel Savil and the others were > shocked and one of the things she says is that Yfandes has run alone > for over 10 years. At this time there were tons of trainees in the > collegium if Yfandes wasn't waiting for someone special that only > she could provide the right "help" for why hadn't she chosen in the > previous years???? I (IMHO) think that Vanyel needed Yfande's and > her "special" gifts. Does this point her towards being grove born?? Not really, I guess. But I _still_ like the idea. :=) -- IFL Elen síla lümenn' omentielvo ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Sep 1995 09:45:28 +0200 From: Ina Faye-Lund To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: LHM(SPOILER) Message-ID: <199509140745.1454.gjalp.ifi.uio.no-+AT+-ifi.uio.no> On Wed, 13 Sep 1995 15:25:31 +0100, Jerry Cullingford said: >> Companions only choose people with Gifts. As Vanyel had only potential >> when he came to Haven, Yfandes wouldn't have chosen him if he'd been the >> nicest, most considerate, most practical kid on Earth. > Hmm. They certainly don't only choose people with *active* gifts; if you look > at _Arrows of the Queen_ that seems to be the exception rather than the > rule. If I remember correctly, most peoples Gifts develop *after* they've > been chosen for a while (with a nudge from the companions, perhaps?). > Whether that's different from Van's case, I'm not sure - maybe there's a > distinction between [has potential for gift] [has gift but isn't active] > and [has active gift] :-). Did they have a way of checking the Gifts by then? Since nobody could tell what kind of Gift they would get? IFL ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Sep 1995 08:11:40 +0000 (GMT) From: jc-+AT+-crosfield.co.uk (Jerry Cullingford) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Monarchs Own Message-ID: <9509140811.AA08484-+AT+-crosfield.co.uk> > > > On the subject of being grove born, since Gwena is grove-born does > this mean that Talia and Rolan will be dying together? Or does being > grove-born not mean that Elspeth and Gwena will be the next Monarch's > Own? > Any Ideas? The Monarch's Own Companion is always grove-born, yes, but there can be more than one grove-born around, so it doesn't work the other way round :-). Besides, the MOC is always a _stallion_, so that lets Gwena out :-) :-). -- _|_ / | Jerry Cullingford jc-+AT+-crosfield.co.uk (Work) \_|_ jc-+AT+-selune.demon.co.uk (Home) \__/ Hemel Hempstead, UK jerry-+AT+-shell.portal.com (alternate) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Sep 1995 10:25:04 +0200 From: Ina Faye-Lund To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Just finished Magic's Price. Message-ID: <199509140825.3458.gjalp.ifi.uio.no-+AT+-ifi.uio.no> On Sun, 10 Sep 1995 23:11:57 +0100, "Jennifer S. Broekman" said: > Well, then we'll have to agree to disagree, because I cannot believe > that Talia would 'improve' a story she didn't know the ending to, > while she was reading it for the first time. You (well, I, at least) > don't have to invent a new character in order to escape into a book. > I'm perfectly capable of identifying with a character I didn't invent, > *even* a male, and I don't think Talia's non-Gift empathy was so > lacking that she couldn't do the same. In short, I don't think > there's a shred of evidence or motivation for thinking that Talia > invented the character of the female Herald and plenty of reason to > think that the in-world novelist who wrote the story did, and no > amount of saying that adding characters to a story one doesn't know at > all 'improves' it is going to change my mind. Just to quarrel: ;) "Herald Vanyel was alone, surrounded by the Servants of Darkness, and no one knew his peril but _his Companion_and_Bard_Stefen_." That proves it as far as I am concerned. _If_ there had been another Herald in that book, the one who Talia saw herself as, wouldn't she too have been mentioned? -- IFL Elen síla lümenn' omentielvo ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Sep 1995 11:19:35 +0100 From: mel (Melanie Dymond Harper) To: mercedes-lackey Subject: What if .... Message-ID: <9509141019.AA05713-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk> I think it was Adrienne who brought this up some several messages back (my, you have been talkative overnight), but I thought it was a rather interesting question. What would Van have been like, if Tylendel hadn't suicided? I'll assume for argument's sake that this includes Tylendel not going mad in the same way. (Yeah, yeah, we're basically destroying most of the plot from LHM here :)) I think Van would have wound up as one of the Blues, basically. (Of the sort who were tormenting Talia, rather than the more useful ones who actually studied.) I suspect that Tylendel might have become quite annoyed with him; Tylendel being a Herald, and Van being rather useless -- but they wouldn't have been able to split up because of the lifebond. Hmm. Any other thoughts? Cheers Mel. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Sep 1995 07:46:51 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine Osborne To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: LHM (SPOILER) Message-ID: On Thu, 14 Sep 1995, Kerry Mealing wrote: > I'm not saying you're wrong as I haven't read the lyrics recently enough > to remember, but were Shadowdancer and Sunsinger actually heralds? I have > a vague memory of a reference to newly-won power which would have let them > break their curses, but they chose to use it to help someone else. > Their names just seem more along the lines of the Tayledras than Valdemaran. > Though there were legends in Vanyel's time of the Hawk-brothers, so perhaps > the Tayledras once had more contact with Valdemaar and drifted apart > (meaning that perhaps they did have Tayledras names, but were Valdemaran). Hmm. I could be wrong, but it seems that they might not have been Heralds, given that a Companion is never mentioned in the song or elsewhere, wheras Windrider's Darshay is given a very prominent place. Shouldn't Sun and Shadow's hypothetical Companions have been helping in some way (or at least around?) I\/ Catherine Osborne "I will not go down to I\/ Sundancer posterity talking bad I cosborne-+AT+-sidwell.edu grammar." I http://www.sidwell.edu/~cosborne/ --Disraeli ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Sep 1995 07:52:28 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine Osborne To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: SR tied into the LHM thread... Message-ID: Just an irrelevancy on the "young woman/Companion" thread. Vanyel saw Lendel's Companion (mind temporarily blank) at least once and possibly twice as a young laughing woman flickering in and out with the horse-shape. Anyone want to find quotes? (I'm at school, books on loan -- old story :) I\/ Catherine Osborne "I will not go down to I\/ Sundancer posterity talking bad I cosborne-+AT+-sidwell.edu grammar." I http://www.sidwell.edu/~cosborne/ --Disraeli ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Sep 1995 09:11:32 EST From: "Aphrael" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: LHM (SPOILER) Message-ID: >Here is a question that I don't think has been raised before. I think that >this might become an interesting thread... It certainly has potiential... >When did Rolan become MOC? The reason I ask is this. Taver was MOC during >LHM, when did the transition take place to Rolan? Well, I think it goes back to the fact that MOC does not age or die of old aged, but can be killed. Remember, about half of all Heralds never live to retire. That certainly includes the MOH, who frequently goes into situations like Talia and Kris did when they went to Hardorn in _Arrows Fall_. Think about it, it could have been Rolan as well as Tantris that got shot full of arrows. The MOC is often right in the line of danger. One--or maybe even two or three-- MOH and MOC between Jisa and the QOH before Talia (rats, suddenly pulled a blank on his name) died either in battle, or in an ambush, or some other such way. (I seriously doubt that simple accidents can take out a MOC.) > >Thoughts, comments, did I miss something? No, you didn't miss anything. We don't really get a clear picture of the political situation in Valdemar from somewhere in Trevan's reign (when Stef goes to the Forest of Sorrows to join Van as an old man) until the Tedrel Wars. We get a glimpse of Herald Roald when he was Heir in the Vows and Honor Duology, but other than that, we really don't know anything. Well, except that the war with Karse proceeded as normal. In fact, that's the only real guess we can make to Taver's death. The war with Karse was particularly violent during Vanyel's lifetime and in the period just after his death, since the ban on magic had just been decreed. The MOH--could have been Jisa, could have been the next MOH--was needed for some reason on the boarder, and was killed in the line of duty, Taver with him/her. Of course, this is just my own theory.... Zhai'helleva-- Lyn I am an idealist. | /> Lynore M. Belzer I don't know where | /< 716/379-3034 lbelzer-+AT+-sbu.edu I'm going, but I'm | -+AT+-}XXXXX(-+AT+-):::<=====================- on my way. | \< St. Bonaventure University -Carl Sandburg. | \> aka Aphrael/Sephrenia ___________________|__________________________________________________ As I lay me down to sleep, this I pray: that you will hold me dear, though I'm far away... Sophie B. Hawkins. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Sep 1995 09:14:33 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine Osborne To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: What if .... Message-ID: On Thu, 14 Sep 1995, Melanie Dymond Harper wrote: > I think Van would have wound up as one of the Blues, basically. (Of the sort who > were tormenting Talia, rather than the more useful ones who actually studied.) > I suspect that Tylendel might have become quite annoyed with him; Tylendel > being a Herald, and Van being rather useless -- but they wouldn't have been > able to split up because of the lifebond. Hmm. Any other thoughts? I politely completely disagree. When Vanyel first came to Haven, that might have been possible. In fact, probable. He wouldn't have *liked* it (remember, he was miserable in his position pre-Lendel) but he would have done it in order to be admired by his circle, who would have enjoyed it. However, after Tylendel and Van got together, Vanyel's act was recognized by everyone who mattered as just that -- an act. Tylendel knew it, Savil knew it, and even Vanyel, who I don't think really realized it before, knew it. After Tylendel, Van started really studying (remember the scene on the couch) and maybe he was still upset about the music, but he was beginning to play for said people who matter when Lendel went off on his revenge mission and dragged his lover into it. In fact, if you were in the know, you might have said, as Savil, a non-lifebonded-person, did, that Vanyel was, all-around, a nice kid. Not perfect -- but then, neither was Tylendel. Also it ought to be noted that even Blues grow up. Some of them must become wiser adults and realize what jerks they had been as self-conscious teenagers, even if a bunch of them remain jerks. Vanyel, an unusually introspective kid, who *knew* he was a jerk *at the time,* would have been even more likely to mend his ways on his own eventually. Furthermore, Vanyel *did* become "useful" in a magical position to the Herald-Mage Tylendel. If Lendel had survived the revenge mission and/or not been repudiated, etc., etc., it's a good bet that Vanyel would have been used again as a channel for Tylendel, many times. As the mage-potential lifebonded, he provided in the ill-fated project extra power and support and, in effect, made the whole thing possible. More mundanely, as just that - a non-mage-gifted person - he could not be detected by spells like the one on Savil's book, set up to catch mage-gifted spies. He would have been the perfect spy - he was absolutely loyal to the mage in whose service he was; and mages Lendel would be going after might not be looking for just another dark-haired man slipping through their gates (magical or otherwise.) He wouldn't have been chosen Herald, he didn't have the proper mindset for that -- but you don't have to be a Herald to be lifebonded to and loved by one -- prime example, Vanyel and Stefen. And as I said above, sometimes its actually an advantage not to be specially obvious, like a Herald or a mage. I think that's everything I have to say, tho of course its all pure speculation. Someone asked about a smiley with a mustache -- I recommend using the mustache in the opposite direction: instead of ;}), ;{) Bye everyone I\/ Catherine Osborne "I will not go down to I\/ Sundancer posterity talking bad I cosborne-+AT+-sidwell.edu grammar." I http://www.sidwell.edu/~cosborne/ --Disraeli ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Sep 1995 09:19:58 EST From: "Aphrael" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: What if .... Message-ID: >What would Van have been like, if Tylendel hadn't suicided? >I think Van would have wound up as one of the Blues, basically. (Of the sort who >were tormenting Talia, rather than the more useful ones who actually studied.) AWK! Nonononononono! I think Van was on his way to 'reformation' before Tylendel suicided. Even before 'Lendel's twin's death. I'm not sure, as others are, that he would have been eventually chosen. I still believe that to have been part expediency. I'm not saying he definately would NOT have been Chosen, I'm just not sure. Anyway, Van had settled down to his studies (albeit with 'Lendel's coaching), and was turning out to be a pretty good kid. Look at the scene where Savil, 'Lendel, and Van are discussing "what happens now" after Lendel and Van's first encounter. Savil is surprised, not once, but a few times during *that* interview. She mindspeaks 'Lendel about it, and he responds that the change is due to the fact that Van is done with the rude, arrogant mask he's been protecting himself with. I am an idealist. | /> Lynore M. Belzer I don't know where | /< 716/379-3034 lbelzer-+AT+-sbu.edu I'm going, but I'm | -+AT+-}XXXXX(-+AT+-):::<=====================- on my way. | \< St. Bonaventure University -Carl Sandburg. | \> aka Aphrael/Sephrenia ___________________|__________________________________________________ As I lay me down to sleep, this I pray: that you will hold me dear, though I'm far away... Sophie B. Hawkins. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Sep 1995 09:42:51 -0400 (EDT) From: "Edward B. Adams" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: SR tied into the LHM thread... Message-ID: On Wed, 13 Sep 1995, Aphrael wrote: > > Also, I think that assuming Yfandes to be grove born takes away > from her sacrifice and hard work with Van. Besides, unlike Gwena, > whom people just kind of remembered as being in the background, > Yfandes seemed to be pretty well known to the Collegium. Mardic > knows who she is immediately, and Savil, upon hearing that 'Fandes > chose Van, is incredulous, saying something like, "the only Companion > who hasn't Chosen in over ten years picked NOW to do it?!" (Major > paraphrase there, sorry.) Besides, Yfandes foaled twice, but I've > been talking to another person on the list, and he has more with > that. Well, I'm the other person that Aphrael was talking about. Technically, it is possible for all the companions working together to convince their Heralds that not only has Yfandes been hanging around for all these years without chooseing, but she has also born two foals in that time; but I really doubt it. First off, why did Gwena's "hisory" inculde that she was a quiet foal who hid in the background? Because the less interaction with the Heralds that she had, the easier it is to implant False memories. There is no indication that this is the case with Yfandes. Not only is she a normal , active companion (as far as we can tell) but she has also foaled twice. This leaves us with two young Companions with suddenly changed parentage. Don't you think that something as tramatic as your Companion giving birth would be too ingrained to "forget" easily? Suddenly, weeks of sitting out in Companion's field waiting for a foaling are wiped out of the Herald's memory. Not to mention that I sincerely doubt that any Companion would allow her foals to be "given" to Yfandes for camoflague (sp?), ESPECIALLY since it would simply be a needless complication. When you add in the other inconsistancies: such as Van not even having gifts until, what, less than an hour before he was Chosen. That seems like an awfully tight timeframe to shoehorn the "creation" of a Grove-born Companion. I will grant that the combined Companions have enough Foresight to get the message "Somebody special will be chosen in the future: (s)he is going to need a powerful Companion to partner with" and Yfandes, one of the most heavily gited Companions, voluntarily "saves herself" for Vanyel. So, even though it has been shown that Companions can and do fiddle with their Herald's memories when the situation warrants it, I would think that Yfandes' history is too detailed for it to be a hasty construct implanted in the minds of the Heralds. Just my two small copper coins Zhai'helleva Ned Ned Adams AKA S.Baldric If this is a trial of my abilities, the gods have no sense of proportion sbaldric-+AT+-roanoke.infi.net (Darkwind k'Sheyna) (703) 890-0212 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Sep 1995 09:47:50 -0400 (EDT) From: "Edward B. Adams" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: David Bahrke wxav85d-+AT+-prodigy.com Message-ID: On Thu, 14 Sep 1995, MR DAVID W BAHRKE wrote: > > On the subject of being grove born, since Gwena is grove-born does > this mean that Talia and Rolan will be dying together? Or does being > grove-born not mean that Elspeth and Gwena will be the next Monarch's > Own? > Any Ideas? > There is nothing that says that all Grove-born Companions are, or will be, the MOC. In fact, there are several other statements which indicate otherwise. One one point Terren (I think) makes the comment that "The only COmpanion who ALWAYS is Grove Born is the MOC". That seems to me that there are the occasional "other" Grove-born who are not MOC. In the same bit (I think) he gives the process in which the MOC is "created": when the old MOC dies, then a new one comes from the grove. So, I doubt that Gwena is a "spare" Besides, with all due respect to Elspeth, and I do like her, She would not make a good Monarch's Own. Zhai'helleva Ned Ned Adams AKA S.Baldric If this is a trial of my abilities, the gods have no sense of proportion sbaldric-+AT+-roanoke.infi.net (Darkwind k'Sheyna) (703) 890-0212 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Sep 1995 6:49:19 -0600 (MDT) From: RUNDLE-+AT+-wilma.bcasd.az.honeywell.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: RE: Need's Deities Message-ID: <950914064919.21a105ff-+AT+-wilma.bcasd.az.honeywell.com> Vivian Choh writes: >Hi again all, > Well I checked through my Winds books again, and Gryfalcon was >correct. Need's deities (from Winds I) are two sets of twins (Kerenal, >Dina, Karanel, Dara) who were/are? Healer, Crafter, fighter and hunter. >So I stand (well sit) corrected! BTW do the four aspects of the Shin'a'in >goddess match any of the above "occupations"? > > And one more question: What happened to these twin gods? Do >god(esse)s "die" if there is no one left to worship them? Okay, at the beginning of By the Sword, if I'm not completely misremembering, Kero is thinking about her childhood, how she prefers riding and being outdoors to the more "womanly" tasks. She's thinking about the deities of her family, possibly her region? She notes that her father prefers the fairer aspect of the deity (Agnira?) while Kero prefers the warrior aspect (Adara?) Anyway, the above list of the sets of twins makes me wonder. Anyone have By the Sword handy? Check out that part. Who are the deities mentioned? I think we'll find that Kero's deities are the OTHER two aspects of the deity! StarWolf ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Sep 1995 6:52:16 -0600 (MDT) From: RUNDLE-+AT+-wilma.bcasd.az.honeywell.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Monarchs Own Message-ID: <950914065216.21a105ff-+AT+-wilma.bcasd.az.honeywell.com> >> >> >> On the subject of being grove born, since Gwena is grove-born does >> this mean that Talia and Rolan will be dying together? Or does being >> grove-born not mean that Elspeth and Gwena will be the next Monarch's >> Own? >> Any Ideas? >The Monarch's Own Companion is always grove-born, yes, but there can be >more than one grove-born around, so it doesn't work the other way round :-). > >Besides, the MOC is always a _stallion_, so that lets Gwena out :-) :-). Besides, we already know who the next Monarch's Own will be - one of Elspeth's half-sibs will be King/Queen the other Monarch's Own. It's stated somewhere either at the end of Winds or in Storm Breaking. When Elspeth resigns from being heir, shortly thereafter she notes the above in a way that appears unquestionable, in other words, it's so natural there's no doubt it will turn out this way. StarWolf (This is fun!) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Sep 1995 10:09:45 -0400 (EDT) From: "Edward B. Adams" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: What if .... Message-ID: On Thu, 14 Sep 1995, Melanie Dymond Harper wrote: > I think it was Adrienne who brought this up some several messages back (my, > you have been talkative overnight), but I thought it was a rather interesting > question. > > What would Van have been like, if Tylendel hadn't suicided? > > I'll assume for argument's sake that this includes Tylendel not going mad in > the same way. (Yeah, yeah, we're basically destroying most of the plot from > LHM here :)) > > I think Van would have wound up as one of the Blues, basically. (Of the sort who > were tormenting Talia, rather than the more useful ones who actually studied.) > I suspect that Tylendel might have become quite annoyed with him; Tylendel > being a Herald, and Van being rather useless -- but they wouldn't have been > able to split up because of the lifebond. Hmm. Any other thoughts? But remember that Van would have been with 'Lendel all this time, and in all likleyhood, they would have been on the Karsite Border within a year or so of 'Lendel getting his whites (There was a comment about Herald-Mages usually getting a permenant posting rahter than riding circuit, but I assumed that most of these postings were along the Karsite border, at least until they ran low on mages). In this case, Van would have been away from the influence of the Blues and the political intrigue in the court and been in very close contact with 'Lendel. I think that in time, Van would have come around to a more "Heraldic" way of thinking. If for nothing else, 'Lendel was the more dominant figure in the relationship: since the lifebond would push one of the two to change to think more like the other, van would shift to 'Lendel's way of thinking. Who knows, maybe Van would have been chosen anyway and had his gifts awaken an a much more natural way through a Companion bond. He wouldn't have been nearly as powerful, but a Van/'Lendel combination would have been extremely powerful. I do have a question, though. If Companions could "awaken" potential gifts, than why did Sayvil take one look at the old Vanyel, declare him utterly useless, and leave? I would think that she was pragmatic enough to grab him, drag him to Haven, and tried some serious attitude adjustment on him in hopes that it wasn't too late to get a Companion to look at him Oh well, just some thoughts Zhai'helleva Ned > Ned Adams AKA S.Baldric If this is a trial of my abilities, the gods have no sense of proportion sbaldric-+AT+-roanoke.infi.net (Darkwind k'Sheyna) (703) 890-0212 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Sep 1995 10:33:54 EST From: "Aphrael" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Need's Dieties (II) Message-ID: >Need's deities (from Winds I) are two sets of twins (Kerenal, Dina, >Karanel, Dara) who were/are? Healer, Crafter, fighter and hunter. Hmmm. Karanel...that's not too big a jump to Kal'enel (especially if you take mispronunciations and the fluidity of language into account). I'm not too sure where Vkandis would fit in, though. Maybe the indiginous Karsite translation? >So I stand (well sit) corrected! BTW do the four aspects of the Shin'a'in >goddess match any of the above "occupations"? Weelll, yes and no. Mother, Maiden, Warrior & Crone would correspond to Healer and Fighter. Most specifically, with the Warrior and the Crone (incidentally, the only two aspects to call goddess sworn: the Kalenedral and the Shaman). However, the oft- forgotten male Shin'a'in diety is Hunter, [insert aspect here: I've forgotten], Guardian & Guide. That one I forgot may have been some kind of craft-related aspect. At any rate, it corresponds with the hunter and crafter of Need's pantheon. > And one more question: What happened to these twin gods? Do >god(esse)s "die" if there is no one left to worship them? Hmmm. Good question. There are several possibilities. Over the years, the two females may have been combined and the two males might have been combined. Or, Dina and Dara might have taken off for parts unknown. The Holderkin have a male and a female diety. Also, I've gotten the impression that the prevalent religion in Valdemar has a male and a female diety. They might have wandered out there (or, more specifically, to the Eastern Empire where Baron Valdemar emigrated from). Or, as you said, with no one to worship them, they may have just faded out of existance. (Now were talking theology, which David Edding's _Elenium_ and _Tamuli_ have interesing views on, but moving on...) Well, back to the _Religio Medici_....oh joy and rapture... Zhai'helleva- Lyn I am an idealist. | /> Lynore M. Belzer I don't know where | /< 716/379-3034 lbelzer-+AT+-sbu.edu I'm going, but I'm | -+AT+-}XXXXX(-+AT+-):::<=====================- on my way. | \< St. Bonaventure University -Carl Sandburg. | \> aka Aphrael/Sephrenia ___________________|__________________________________________________ As I lay me down to sleep, this I pray: that you will hold me dear, though I'm far away... Sophie B. Hawkins. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Sep 1995 10:10:49 -0400 (EDT) From: Gyrfalcon To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Translations (was Re: Firecats) Message-ID: > Anyone care to speculate on the translation for 'kestrachern'?:-) How about: One who is a healer of the heart. It seems to me that the 'chern' sylable has a non-physical "heart" meaning, With leanings on emotions, etc. --Gyrfalcon =======================msowers-+AT+-menger.eecs.stevens-tech.edu=================== Magic still exists. We have only to reach out and touch it, it is a part of the very fabric of the world. When our belief of magic completely dies this universe shall die. Because that magic; Hope, Dreams, Love, Beauty, Wonder, Belief, and Discovery are what make us a people. They are all part of a great Art whose workings are still a mystery but whose applications can be seen every day. If we ever lose the Art mankind shall not last the day. Let the magic that is in us roam free in our work, play, in each other, and most of all in ourselves. Let it roam free or it will die. ============================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Sep 1995 11:12:09 -0400 From: "Jennifer S. Broekman" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: LHM (SPOILER) Message-ID: <199509141512.LAA10104-+AT+-sparky.phast.umass.edu> Kerry Mealing wrote: >Jenneke wrote: >> (Also, he met the ShadowLover. Shadowdancer was an early Herald whose >> lifebonded was the similarly cursed Sunsinger.) >I'm not saying you're wrong as I haven't read the lyrics recently enough >to remember, but were Shadowdancer and Sunsinger actually heralds? I have They were Chosen after they broke their respective curses. It's mentioned somewhere that they were among the earliest Heralds, but that their Choosing came after the end of the song about them. -jenneke I *am* family. How could I not have family values? Only Boys Accepting Feminism Get Kissed Meaningfully -- Geoff Marcy The only unnatural sexual act is that which you cannot perform. -Alfred Kinsey broekman-+AT+-sparky.phast.umass.edu | http://www-astro.phast.umass.edu/gs/jenn.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Sep 1995 11:32:04 -0400 From: "Jennifer S. Broekman" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: SPOILERS. Re: Common Deities Message-ID: <199509141532.LAA10113-+AT+-sparky.phast.umass.edu> Kerry Mealing wrote: >I think you're on the right track though with the twins theory. >But not light/dark. Thinking about it, I would have put at least 4 distinct >gods/goddesses on the side of the Light: The Star-Eyed, Vkandis, the deity >protecting Istar & whatever deity is responsible for the companions & >Valdemaar. Iftel, not Istar, btw. Just to throw a monkey wrench in, though, the deity protecting Iftel is almost always referred to in the plural: the Wind Lords. >These seem to have distinct modus operandi to my way of thinking with the >Star-Eyed (who I agree is Kal'enel) and Vkandis being the most direct. >I would have put both sets of twins in Need's pantheon as being of the Light. >The Star-Eyed is the betrothed of Vkandis and Valdemar's >"Bright Lady" is the betrothed of Istar. Kal'enel is one of the Star-Eyed's names, indeed, but that doesn't make her Vkandis's consort, Kalanel. Valdemar's "Bright Lady" seems to be Astera (who is *not* the same as Lady Windborn) whose consort is named in _LHM_ as Kernos. >Kal'enal's twin responsible for Valdemaar (I can see one twin referring to >the other as "My Other Self"). A lot of the early Heralds swear by "Lady I can see the Star-Eyed referring to any deity of Light as "My Other Self", actually. She seems to have a pleasantly broad view of such things, along the lines of Vkandis's anything-done-for-the-Light-is- done-for-me. >Secondly I have a vague impression that Istar's deity is male (something >Vanyel said about Leareth, even with a group of Adepts not wanting to tangle >with a deity). And the guardian on Istar's border (while not the deity) >would recognize Kalal (sp? young channel from Karse) as being a priest of >his deity's twin. And I can't remember who they were going to send before >U... ( the priest from Karse) died but I think it was a herald-mage of >Valdemaar whose companion would have been recognizable to the border guardian >as being of Istar's deity's consort. Ulrich was the one who was to be sent to the Iftel border before he was killed. No Herald-Mage would've sufficed, according to Altra. If Karal had been killed, too, Solaris would've come up to take that post. A Companion would probably be recognized, but the Herald would have to be recognized, too, in order for them to pass through, and no Herald would be recognized. The feeling I got was that the border guardian recognized True Priests of whatever deity, and no Valdemaran is a True Priest, because the deities haven't acted in Valdemar in centuries. If there had been a magegifted shaman present, she/he might easily have been sent instead of Karal, IMO... -jenneke PS Would people *please* remove the signatures of those they're quoting? There's absolutely no need to keep two or three sets of sig's tagged onto messages... I *am* family. How could I not have family values? Only Boys Accepting Feminism Get Kissed Meaningfully -- Geoff Marcy The only unnatural sexual act is that which you cannot perform. -Alfred Kinsey broekman-+AT+-sparky.phast.umass.edu | http://www-astro.phast.umass.edu/gs/jenn.html ------------------------------ End of MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 139 *********************************