MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 140 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re: LHM (SPOILER) by "Jennifer S. Broekman" 2) Re: Need's Dieties (II) by "Jennifer S. Broekman" 3) Re: Firecats by "Jennifer S. Broekman" 4) Re: Wish list by "Tarja Rainio" 5) Linguistics (was Re: Firecats) by "Cecile S. Ueltschey" 6) RE: LHM(SPOILER) by Eugene 7) Re: Wish list by "Cecile S. Ueltschey" 8) Re: LHM (SPOILER) by Adrienne York 9) Re: Need's Dieties (II) by Adrienne York 10) re: LHM(SPOILER) by Adrienne York 11) Re: What if .... by Adrienne York 12) Re: LHM (SPOILER) by "Aphrael" 13) Re: Wish list by "Angela M." 14) Re: What if .... by "Jennifer S. Broekman" 15) FWD: Error Condition Re: Re: LHM (SPOILER) by RUNDLE-+AT+-wilma.bcasd.az.honeywell.com 16) Re: Translations (was Re: Firecats) by "Edward B. Adams" 17) RE: LHM(SPOILER) by "Jennifer S. Broekman" 18) Yfandes (WAS)Re: SR tied into the LHM thread... by "Cecile S. Ueltschey" 19) Re: LHM (SPOILER) by AnneR123-+AT+-aol.com 20) Re: Translations (was Re: Firecats) by "Cecile S. Ueltschey" 21) Re: LHM (SPOILER) by MAT TIMMERMAN 22) Re: Yfandes (WAS)Re: SR tied into the LHM thread... by "Edward B. Adams" 23) Re: Need's Dieties (II) by MAT TIMMERMAN 24) Re: Wish list by MAT TIMMERMAN 25) Re: Yfandes (WAS)Re: SR tied into the LHM thread... by h-wilfehrt-+AT+-nwu.edu (Helen M. Wilfehrt) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 14 Sep 1995 11:40:47 -0400 From: "Jennifer S. Broekman" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: LHM (SPOILER) Message-ID: <199509141540.LAA10126-+AT+-sparky.phast.umass.edu> Matt J wrote: >When did Rolan become MOC? The reason I ask is this. Taver was MOC during >LHM, when did the transition take place to Rolan? Sometime in the almost 600 years that pass between Treven's reign and Sendar's. Just as the transition between the original MOC and Taver takes place in the about 700 years between the Founding and Elspeth Peacemaker's reign. Just a thought: Why do people assume that there is more than one MOC? Differing names are not a reason, since the MOC gives his name to his Herald, always, and I dare anyone to state (with a straight face) that a high-order Guardian Spirit is incapable of picking himself a new name and remembering to answer to it. -jenneke I *am* family. How could I not have family values? Only Boys Accepting Feminism Get Kissed Meaningfully -- Geoff Marcy The only unnatural sexual act is that which you cannot perform. -Alfred Kinsey broekman-+AT+-sparky.phast.umass.edu | http://www-astro.phast.umass.edu/gs/jenn.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Sep 1995 11:35:20 -0400 From: "Jennifer S. Broekman" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Need's Dieties (II) Message-ID: <199509141535.LAA10116-+AT+-sparky.phast.umass.edu> Vivian Choh wrote: > Well I checked through my Winds books again, and Gryfalcon was >correct. Need's deities (from Winds I) are two sets of twins (Kerenal, >Dina, Karanel, Dara) who were/are? Healer, Crafter, fighter and hunter. >So I stand (well sit) corrected! BTW do the four aspects of the Shin'a'in >goddess match any of the above "occupations"? The Shin'a'in Goddess is Maiden, Warrior, Mother, and Crone. The Shin'a'in God is Rover, Guardian, Hunter, and Guide. I tend to think any overlap is due more to the way that humans divide up the world than any relation between the deities. > And one more question: What happened to these twin gods? Do >god(esse)s "die" if there is no one left to worship them? >From the story of Thalkarsh, I'd guess that deities do die, or at least drastically decrease in power, if they don't have worshippers. Need's own existence may have been enough to keep them 'alive', but they probably don't have enough power to affect the 'real' world anymore. -jenneke I *am* family. How could I not have family values? Only Boys Accepting Feminism Get Kissed Meaningfully -- Geoff Marcy The only unnatural sexual act is that which you cannot perform. -Alfred Kinsey broekman-+AT+-sparky.phast.umass.edu | http://www-astro.phast.umass.edu/gs/jenn.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Sep 1995 11:49:11 -0400 From: "Jennifer S. Broekman" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Firecats Message-ID: <199509141549.LAA10129-+AT+-sparky.phast.umass.edu> Adrienne York wrote: >Tale'edras is Shin'a'in for what later became Tayle'dras. The Shin'a'in >*added* a syllable there. And blanco and blanc are white in French and >Italian respectively. Who's to say who lost/added a syllable? I think >From the Gryphon series, the Tayledras dropped a syllable. "Tale" means hawk, and "edras" means brothers or siblings. (Tale'sedrin means hawk's children.) >"a" is the perfect vehicle for adding sexual connotations, because it's >the sort of syllable which can develop from simply stressing a word >repeatedly. It's the difference between "I 'like' him as a friend" and >"I 'li-ike' him as a boyfriend." And the essential meaning, like self, >would still be in the first syllable. The connotation "a", is not >essential. That's why it's a connotation. I'm not convinced that the sexuality connotation is non-essential. (I've also never in my life heard anyone split 'like' to add the connotation in your example.) Connotations are not, in and of themselves, non-essential, btw. I don't think this debate is resolvable without finding out what the Kaled'a'in word for heterosexual is... >As for kestra'chern, it seems >to mean something like therapist. And I would guess, because of the >highly sexual nature that therapy often took, that "chern" came to mean >lover as a slang shortening of kestra'chern. I disagree, because shay'a'chern and kestra'chern both exist in the Mage Wars series, and the acceptance of the shay'a'chern seems intrinsic enough to Kaled'a'in culture that I don't think the word was a recent addition. -jenneke I *am* family. How could I not have family values? Only Boys Accepting Feminism Get Kissed Meaningfully -- Geoff Marcy The only unnatural sexual act is that which you cannot perform. -Alfred Kinsey broekman-+AT+-sparky.phast.umass.edu | http://www-astro.phast.umass.edu/gs/jenn.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Sep 1995 19:01:16 EET DST From: "Tarja Rainio" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Wish list Message-ID: <4AAF2A2D3A-+AT+-katk.helsinki.fi> Matt J writes: >You know I would also like to see more on Sayvil Vans aunt. I think that I >would also like to see more history. More info on the comapnions, and >finally a compilation of all her short stories involving Tarma and Kethry. Yes! Sayvil is great. I'd especially like to see how she met the Hawkbrothers. That could be one helluva story, I'd say. Tarja ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Sep 1995 11:16:46 -0500 (CDT) From: "Cecile S. Ueltschey" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Linguistics (was Re: Firecats) Message-ID: On Wed, 13 Sep 1995, Jennifer S. Broekman wrote: > > Anyone care to speculate on the translation for 'kestrachern'?:-) > > -jenneke > Reading The Black Gryphon last night, I THINK (I'm not sure) I've puzzled out 'kestrachern'. From the description of Amberdrake and what he does, it seems to mean 'soul healer' but also has connotations of 'taking someone's hurts into oneself'. ML describes Drake as having "phantom" pain analogous to Skan's injuries that he healed. Also Drake makes a comment that the kestrachern give a person what their HEART says they need, not what they THINK (their MIND) they need. So if they need Empathy and emotional comfort they give that; if they need physical Healing, they give that (and the physical Healing seems to be of a higher order than what we've seen later Healers do, more like what Need does); and if the "comfort" needed is both physical and emotional it could entail various things like massage, herbal therapy and even sex. So I'm wondering if 'chern' may mean "heart" or "soul", with the connotation being "love/lover" when combined with 'shay' or 'shay'kresh'. 'Ashke' is definately beloved, and I too had the impression that 'shay'kresh'ashke' meant something like "one's beloved other self" (e.g. lifebonded or "soul-mates") and 'shay'a'chern' meant "one whose heart/soul(lover) is like one's self (sex)". 'Shay' being self (maybe the sexual connotation is indicated by the 'a' or by spoken inflection??), 'chern' being heart/soul (connotation of lover inferred by context??), 'kresh' maybe "other" ???, and 'kestra' referring to Healing??? Does any of this hold water with anyone?? Cecile ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Sep 1995 10:21:35 +0000 From: Eugene To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: RE: LHM(SPOILER) Message-ID: <01HV9TL2SSN69D4HTV-+AT+-SKISAS.USask.CA> Jenneke wrote: > Adrienne York wrote: > >On Tue, 12 Sep 1995, jenneke wrote: > >> It seems much more likely that Yfandes was > >> born the normal way, and would have Chosen him earlier if he'd > >> been less spoiled when he first arrived in Haven. > >Companions only choose people with Gifts. As Vanyel had only > >potential when he came to Haven, Yfandes wouldn't have chosen him > >if he'd been the nicest, most considerate, most practical kid on > >Earth. > > Um, no. Companions Choose people who can develop Gifts. True, but does Savil not state that she is dissapointed that none of Treesa and Withen's children share her gifts. Vanyel remembers her saying this after she tests him for Gifts and he comes up with "potential only". Surely Savil would have said something at this point like "well if he gets chosen he'll develop gifts", or something similiar, if this were possible. Maybe $.02, maybe only $0.01, I'll let you decide, Gene ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Sep 1995 11:29:03 -0500 (CDT) From: "Cecile S. Ueltschey" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Wish list Message-ID: On Thu, 14 Sep 1995 URAMESS-+AT+-aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 95-09-13 01:19:16 EDT, you write: > > You know I would also like to see more on Sayvil Vans aunt. > > Matt J > Not to be too picky here, Matt, but SAVIL (no 'Y') was Van's aunt. SAYVIL was Kero's Companion, who may or may not be Savil re-incarnated. But let's keep the incarnations separate so as not to be confused! ;-). Cecile ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Sep 1995 12:43:07 -0400 (EDT) From: Adrienne York To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: LHM (SPOILER) Message-ID: On Thu, 14 Sep 1995, Kerry Mealing wrote: > > Jenneke wrote: > > (Also, he met the ShadowLover. Shadowdancer was an early Herald whose > > lifebonded was the similarly cursed Sunsinger.) > > I'm not saying you're wrong as I haven't read the lyrics recently enough > to remember, but were Shadowdancer and Sunsinger actually heralds? I have > a vague memory of a reference to newly-won power which would have let them > break their curses, but they chose to use it to help someone else. > Their names just seem more along the lines of the Tayledras than Valdemaran. > Though there were legends in Vanyel's time of the Hawk-brothers, so perhaps > the Tayledras once had more contact with Valdemaar and drifted apart > (meaning that perhaps they did have Tayledras names, but were Valdemaran). > > Can anyone refresh my memory? :) > Kerry. > Wasn't Sunsinger a Herald and Shadowdancer somebody's prisoner? I don't remember clearly either. ;];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];] ;] Adrienne York-Minor ;] ;] "May your life be interesting" potent Shin'a'in curse ;] ;] ayork-+AT+-plato.simons-rock.edu ;] ;];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];] ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Sep 1995 12:58:13 -0400 (EDT) From: Adrienne York To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Need's Dieties (II) Message-ID: On Thu, 14 Sep 1995, Vivian Choh wrote: (snip) > > And one more question: What happened to these twin gods? Do > god(esse)s "die" if there is no one left to worship them? > (end snip) My guess is that worship is what keeps a god/ess in existence. Remember in Oathbound, that demon had to build up power base of worship and sacrifice to become a god. Worship, I think, is one of at least two methods of raising power to become a god, but it's probably the most common, powerful, and easily self-renewing. ;];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];] ;] Adrienne York-Minor ;] ;] "May your life be interesting" potent Shin'a'in curse ;] ;] ayork-+AT+-plato.simons-rock.edu ;] ;];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];] ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Sep 1995 12:52:59 -0400 (EDT) From: Adrienne York To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: re: LHM(SPOILER) Message-ID: On Wed, 13 Sep 1995 RUNDLE-+AT+-wilma.bcasd.az.honeywell.com wrote: > > >Companions only choose people with Gifts. As Vanyel had only potential > >when he came to Haven, Yfandes wouldn't have chosen him if he'd been the > >nicest, most considerate, most practical kid on Earth. > > >Please excuse me if I'm being too picky, > > > Excuse me for being picky, but companions choose people with potential > gifts. Untrained gifts. But more importantly, with the right attitude. > > Many of the minor characters are fairly ungifted, but have the right > attitude. Besides, didn't it say somewhere that companions bring out > latent gifts? Certainly they strenghten existing gifts (remember during > Talia's training, they told her that to get her gift to work, she had > to spend lots of time bonding with Rolan? something like that. I'll > have to look it up to get something more specific). > > Vanyel certainly had latent gifts. But he was a spoiled, hurt, self-involved > brat. And he wasn't herald material at that time. > > StarWolf > StarWolf, if you read the introductions to one of the books, I think it's the second Arrows book or one of the Winds books, Misty says quite specifically that Heralds have to have psi talents, however minor. Having potential and having a Gift are not quite the same thing. And all chosen Heralds have the Gift. ;];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];] ;] Adrienne York-Minor ;] ;] "May your life be interesting" potent Shin'a'in curse ;] ;] ayork-+AT+-plato.simons-rock.edu ;] ;];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];] ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Sep 1995 13:10:27 -0400 (EDT) From: Adrienne York To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: What if .... Message-ID: On Thu, 14 Sep 1995, Melanie Dymond Harper wrote: > I think it was Adrienne who brought this up some several messages back (my, > you have been talkative overnight), but I thought it was a rather interesting > question. > > What would Van have been like, if Tylendel hadn't suicided? > > I'll assume for argument's sake that this includes Tylendel not going mad in > the same way. (Yeah, yeah, we're basically destroying most of the plot from > LHM here :)) > > I think Van would have wound up as one of the Blues, basically. (Of the sort who > were tormenting Talia, rather than the more useful ones who actually studied.) > I suspect that Tylendel might have become quite annoyed with him; Tylendel > being a Herald, and Van being rather useless -- but they wouldn't have been > able to split up because of the lifebond. Hmm. Any other thoughts? > > Cheers > > Mel. > Mel, I think you're adding more to my original question than I had there. My thought was what would happen if everything were the exact same *except* somebody grabbed and permanently restrained 'Lendel before he jumped off a cliff. At that point, Van would still have to be chosen and Lendel would still have lost... was 'Lendel's companion named Gwena? Hmm, I wonder how she's related to Elspeth's Gwena. But anyway, Van would have become a terrifically powerful Herald and Lendel would have been... A Herald without a Companion? A Blue, but one of the useful sort? Would he have had to take over Frelennye's (sp) holdings? Curiouser and curiouser. TTTFN, ;];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];] ;] Adrienne York-Minor ;] ;] "May your life be interesting" potent Shin'a'in curse ;] ;] ayork-+AT+-plato.simons-rock.edu ;] ;];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];] ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Sep 1995 13:22:37 EST From: "Aphrael" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: LHM (SPOILER) Message-ID: >Hmm. I could be wrong, but it seems that they might not have been >Heralds, given that a Companion is never mentioned in the song or >elsewhere, wheras Windrider's Darshay is given a very prominent place. >Shouldn't Sun and Shadow's hypothetical Companions have been helping in >some way (or at least around?) The curses were a part of their lives *before* they were Chosen, likewise their bonding. I think part of the reason they were Chosen was because they had the chance to break their respective curses, but instead used the power to free Windrider and Darshay. I think. Hope I'm not too far off base- Lyn I am an idealist. | /> Lynore M. Belzer I don't know where | /< 716/379-3034 lbelzer-+AT+-sbu.edu I'm going, but I'm | -+AT+-}XXXXX(-+AT+-):::<=====================- on my way. | \< St. Bonaventure University -Carl Sandburg. | \> aka Aphrael/Sephrenia ___________________|__________________________________________________ As I lay me down to sleep, this I pray: that you will hold me dear, though I'm far away... Sophie B. Hawkins. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Sep 1995 13:38:08 -0400 (EDT) From: "Angela M." To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Wish list Message-ID: On Thu, 14 Sep 1995 URAMESS-+AT+-aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 95-09-13 01:19:16 EDT, you write: > > > There's another story idea I'd like to see. I wonder if any > >other Skybolts got chosen? > > You know I would also like to see more on Sayvil Vans aunt. I think that I > would also like to see more history. More info on the comapnions, and > finally a compilation of all her short stories involving Tarma and Kethry. This is already something that the group has discussed, but being that I'm new, I missed it, so I'll go right ahead and add a couple of cents to the discussion... I found it very interesting that Kerowyn's Companion is named Savil. *Reeeaal* close to Sayvil. Has there been a discussion on the relationship between Companions and past Heralds? It seems to me that it makes some sense that Companions souls are essentially the reincarnated souls of Heralds. I could be full of s**t, but it's a thought that I've been mulling over for quite awhile. Any other thoughts on this.... *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* Angela M. Murray |"Darkness has a hunger that's Nazareth College of Rochester, NY |insatiable, and lightness has a call Art Education * (ammurray-+AT+-orion.naz.edu)|that's hard to hear..." -I. Girls *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* ___ ___ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Sep 1995 14:27:57 -0400 From: "Jennifer S. Broekman" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: What if .... Message-ID: <199509141827.OAA10267-+AT+-sparky.phast.umass.edu> Catherine Osborne wrote: >On Thu, 14 Sep 1995, Melanie Dymond Harper wrote: >>I think Van would have wound up as one of the Blues, basically. (Of >>the sort who were tormenting Talia, rather than the more useful ones >>who actually studied.) I suspect that Tylendel might have become quite >>annoyed with him; Tylendel being a Herald, and Van being rather >>useless -- but they wouldn't have been able to split up because of the >>lifebond. Hmm. Any other thoughts? I don't think Van would've become that obnoxious. If he hadn't had the bond with Tylendel, I think he would have suicided once he realized that the Court kids were just as obnoxiously stupid as his brothers and cousins. Once he'd acknowledged the bond with Tylendel, he started changing, when he could be himself, into someone who probably would have been able to understand the Heraldic compulsion eventually himself, even if he was never Chosen, because he was learning to care for people other than himself. >I politely completely disagree. >When Vanyel first came to Haven, that might have been possible. In fact, >probable. He wouldn't have *liked* it (remember, he was miserable in his >position pre-Lendel) but he would have done it in order to be admired by >his circle, who would have enjoyed it. He did it for a while, and hated it. He hated it sufficiently that I think he would have committed suicide if he hadn't had someone who agreed with him and cared for him (Tylendel). Even before he started really growing up, remember, he already saw war for what it is, a complete, inglorious waste of people and pain. About Van being useful, I think his ForeSight may have been developing through mere contact with Heralds, since he had the beginnings of the ForeSight dream before his channels were blasted open (and after Savil checked him the first time). If his channels hadn't been blasted open, he may have both developed a fully functional ForeSight Gift and have been useful to Tylendel as a channel. -jenneke I *am* family. How could I not have family values? Only Boys Accepting Feminism Get Kissed Meaningfully -- Geoff Marcy The only unnatural sexual act is that which you cannot perform. -Alfred Kinsey broekman-+AT+-sparky.phast.umass.edu | http://www-astro.phast.umass.edu/gs/jenn.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Sep 1995 13:00:34 -0600 (MDT) From: RUNDLE-+AT+-wilma.bcasd.az.honeywell.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: FWD: Error Condition Re: Re: LHM (SPOILER) Message-ID: <950914130034.21a0c5d1-+AT+-wilma.bcasd.az.honeywell.com> >Jenneke wrote: >> (Also, he met the ShadowLover. Shadowdancer was an early Herald whose >> lifebonded was the similarly cursed Sunsinger.) Kerry replies: >I'm not saying you're wrong as I haven't read the lyrics recently enough >to remember, but were Shadowdancer and Sunsinger actually heralds? I have >a vague memory of a reference to newly-won power which would have let them >break their curses, but they chose to use it to help someone else. >Their names just seem more along the lines of the Tayledras than Valdemaran. >Though there were legends in Vanyel's time of the Hawk-brothers, so perhaps >the Tayledras once had more contact with Valdemaar and drifted apart >(meaning that perhaps they did have Tayledras names, but were Valdemaran). >Can anyone refresh my memory? :) Sure. It's on ShadowStalker, called Windrider Unchained (or in the back of the LHM books, I think). Anyway the story is basically that bad guy (Darklord) takes Windrider (Valdemar's heir) and Darshay (his companion) captive. This part is a little confused. While it appears Windrider is the heir, the song talks about him being "wing-clipped". In any case, take it either way. One is the heir, one the companion. Nothing can save them. Then Sunsinger and Shadowdancer show up. They've managed to accumulate enough power to free themselves from the curse that encumbers them. They can either free themselves from the curse, or free Darshay and Windrider. They choose to free Darshay and Windrider. Eventually, they free themselves from the curse, and then become Heralds. This last part (about becoming heralds) comes from one of the books, I don't recall which. There's additional info about the curse, etc in the Arrows books. StarWolf ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Sep 1995 16:20:54 -0400 (EDT) From: "Edward B. Adams" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Translations (was Re: Firecats) Message-ID: On Thu, 14 Sep 1995, Gyrfalcon wrote: > > > > Anyone care to speculate on the translation for 'kestrachern'?:-) > > How about: > One who is a healer of the heart. > > It seems to me that the 'chern' sylable has a non-physical "heart" > meaning, With leanings on emotions, etc. > > --Gyrfalcon YES! I like this interpretation, because it advoids the term "lover" in the title Kestrachern. Remember how upset Amberdrake got when the apprentace healers assumed that they were army-sanctioned prostitutes. As he made quite clear on many occasions, sex was only a part of what they did: a very important part in certain circumstances, but by now means the entirety, or even the majority of the profession Zhai'helleva ned Ned Adams AKA S.Baldric If this is a trial of my abilities, the gods have no sense of proportion sbaldric-+AT+-roanoke.infi.net (Darkwind k'Sheyna) (703) 890-0212 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Sep 1995 17:09:28 -0400 From: "Jennifer S. Broekman" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: RE: LHM(SPOILER) Message-ID: <199509142109.RAA10403-+AT+-sparky.phast.umass.edu> Eugene wrote: >True, but does Savil not state that she is dissapointed that none of >Treesa and Withen's children share her gifts. Vanyel remembers her >saying this after she tests him for Gifts and he comes up with >"potential only". Surely Savil would have said something at this >point like "well if he gets chosen he'll develop gifts", or something >similiar, if this were possible. You forget one crucial point: just because something is true, it doesn't follow that the characters know it to be true. Van's Gifts could have been developed by contact with a Companion, but that doesn't mean that Savil will necessarily know this. Also, it would be highly out of character for any Herald to specifically groom anyone to become a Herald except, under extraordinary circumstances, the Heir. -jenneke I *am* family. How could I not have family values? Only Boys Accepting Feminism Get Kissed Meaningfully -- Geoff Marcy The only unnatural sexual act is that which you cannot perform. -Alfred Kinsey broekman-+AT+-sparky.phast.umass.edu | http://www-astro.phast.umass.edu/gs/jenn.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Sep 1995 16:37:38 -0500 (CDT) From: "Cecile S. Ueltschey" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Yfandes (WAS)Re: SR tied into the LHM thread... Message-ID: Why couldn't Yfandes have been grove-born 10 years or more prior to Vanyel's arrival?? That argument and the "she bore two foals" argument don't hold water IMHO. We don't KNOW that much about the grove-born Companions to say whether or not they could bear offspring. Doesn't Talia tease Skif when Cymry and Rolan go off to themselves at the Waystation when he meets her and Kris? About the increased fertility of a grove-born stallion?? So, why couldn't ANY grove-born mare (Yfandes included) bear foals? Perhaps Yfandes was "called" too early, or couldn't get to Van to choose him for some reason? There's no reference to her NOT having Chosen before (just that she hasn't Chosen IN ten years), as well, maybe there WERE other Companions that Chose again after the loss of their Herald - at least back then, and probably still would be rare. Cecile ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Sep 1995 17:46:30 -0400 From: AnneR123-+AT+-aol.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: LHM (SPOILER) Message-ID: <950914174629_99617630-+AT+-emout06.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 95-09-14 08:28:21 EDT, you write: >When did Rolan become MOC? The reason I ask is this. Taver was MOC during >LHM, when did the transition take place? I read a book called "Horse Fantastic" a few years ago (before I started reading Misty), and in it was a short story by Misty called "Stolen Silver" , and in it Alberich (the weapons master) is rescued by his companion and taken over the Karse/Valdemar border where two heralds find and help them. One of the heralds says (in mindspeech): ":Taver says his name's Alberich,: said a second voice in his head..." I guess that means that Taver was the MOC for a pretty long time, like four hundred years (from LHM to the Arrows books), and that Rolan bacame MOC a few years after this happened. Just something I thought of, Anne R, who is new and just hoping this message gets to where it's aupposed to go. : ) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Sep 1995 16:46:45 -0500 (CDT) From: "Cecile S. Ueltschey" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Translations (was Re: Firecats) Message-ID: On Thu, 14 Sep 1995, Gyrfalcon wrote: > > > Anyone care to speculate on the translation for 'kestrachern'?:-) > > How about: > One who is a healer of the heart. > > It seems to me that the 'chern' sylable has a non-physical "heart" > meaning, With leanings on emotions, etc. > > --Gyrfalcon Exactly my thought, I sent a rather long post on it earlier (hasn't shown up in my INBOX yet). Someone else mentioned, somewhere, that the 'a' may be the indicator of a sexual connotation (as in "shay'a'chern"). I lean on 'chern' being heart/soul indicating "seat of emotions/house of the spirit" kind of thing. Glad to know I'm not the only one on that track! Cecile ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Sep 1995 19:15:28 -0400 (EDT) From: MAT TIMMERMAN To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: LHM (SPOILER) Message-ID: <01HV9ZHH9ZKI8ZDX8L-+AT+-vaxc.hofstra.edu> From: Catherine Osborne >On Thu, 14 Sep 1995, Kerry Mealing wrote: >> >> I'm not saying you're wrong as I haven't read the lyrics recently enough >> to remember, but were Shadowdancer and Sunsinger actually heralds? I have >> a vague memory of a reference to newly-won power which would have let them >> break their curses, but they chose to use it to help someone else. >> Their names just seem more along the lines of the Tayledras than Valdemaran. >> Though there were legends in Vanyel's time of the Hawk-brothers, so perhaps >> the Tayledras once had more contact with Valdemaar and drifted apart >> (meaning that perhaps they did have Tayledras names, but were Valdemaran). > Hmm. I could be wrong, but it seems that they might not have been > Heralds, given that a Companion is never mentioned in the song or > elsewhere, wheras Windrider's Darshay is given a very prominent place. > Shouldn't Sun and Shadow's hypothetical Companions have been helping in > some way (or at least around?) Hmm, I always thought that Darshay was the Heir and Windrider was the Companion. I mean, Windrider sounds like a Tayledras name, not one for the Valdemaran Heir. It could be a name given to a Companion by his/her non-Mindspeaking Herald (like Sherril's Silkswift). I'm probably wrong, and I know that there are lots of things that could refute my idea (like why name the Windrider Cycle after a Companion?), but that's the impression I got. Mat T. -------------------------------- | Mat Timmerman | | accmjt-+AT+-hofstra.edu | | mtimmerman1-+AT+-hofstra.edu | -------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Sep 1995 19:14:45 -0400 (EDT) From: "Edward B. Adams" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Yfandes (WAS)Re: SR tied into the LHM thread... Message-ID: On Thu, 14 Sep 1995, Cecile S. Ueltschey wrote: > > Why couldn't Yfandes have been grove-born 10 years or more prior > to Vanyel's arrival?? That argument and the "she bore two foals" Yes, it is possible, but I got the distinct impression that Grove-born Companions are there for a reason. In Arrow's Flight, the arrival of a Grove-born was a fairly major undertaking. I would guess that the diety that controls when Grove-born show up would plan things a bit better than to go through all the trouble to bring out a Grove-born, then just have her sit around for the next 10 years > argument don't hold water IMHO. We don't KNOW that much about the > grove-born Companions to say whether or not they could bear offspring. > Doesn't Talia tease Skif when Cymry and Rolan go off to themselves at the > Waystation when he meets her and Kris? About the increased fertility of > a grove-born stallion?? So, why couldn't ANY grove-born mare (Yfandes > included) bear foals? Perhaps Yfandes was "called" too early, or My argument for two foals == not grove born was to show that she couldn't have been called the night of 'Lendel's suicide and then played around with everyone's memories to think that she had been around all along. The arguement that Grove-born are MORE fertile than average actually argues AGAINST Yfandes being Grove-born: she didn't have any foals in the 20-25 years that she and Van were together, and there is plenty of evidence that she was NOT shy about approaching Companion stallions (Magic's Promise at the Halfway Inn when she sidles up to the coriour with the perfectly lovely, errr..., nose) > couldn't get to Van to choose him for some reason? There's no reference > to her NOT having Chosen before (just that she hasn't Chosen IN ten > years), as well, maybe there WERE other > Companions that Chose again after the loss of their Herald - at least > back then, and probably still would be rare. > I would think that a Companion choosing, loosing her Herald, and choosing again would be an extremely rare event: rare enough to be commented on when a rechoosing happened. Remember that Savil (?) told Van that if he died, Yfandes would "pine away". Now if she had survived the loss of a previous Chosen, I think that it would be mentioned here. But most of all, I cannot find any evidence that Yfandes IS Grove-born. She is very talented, with very strong mind-speech and fetching, plus the standard ability to tap node-energy. I also seem to remember a reference that she can function as a channel for Van. Still, this does not necessarily make her a Grove-born: it just means that she is as talented in her own way as Van is in his. Zhai'helleva Ned Ned Adams AKA S.Baldric If this is a trial of my abilities, the gods have no sense of proportion sbaldric-+AT+-roanoke.infi.net (Darkwind k'Sheyna) (703) 890-0212 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Sep 1995 19:21:12 -0400 (EDT) From: MAT TIMMERMAN To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Need's Dieties (II) Message-ID: <01HV9ZRS4CZS8ZDX8L-+AT+-vaxc.hofstra.edu> From: Aphrael <> <<<<<<<<< > And one more question: What happened to these twin gods? Do >god(esse)s "die" if there is no one left to worship them? Hmmm. Good question. There are several possibilities. Over the years, the two females may have been combined and the two males might have been combined. Or, Dina and Dara might have taken off for parts unknown. The Holderkin have a male and a female diety. Also, I've gotten the impression that the prevalent religion in Valdemar has a male and a female diety. They might have wandered out there (or, more specifically, to the Eastern Empire where Baron Valdemar emigrated from). Or, as you said, with no one to worship them, they may have just faded out of existance. (Now were talking theology, which David Edding's _Elenium_ and _Tamuli_ have interesing views on, but moving on...) >>>>>>>>>> In _Arrows Flight_, when on circuit, Kris tells Talia something like, "The people up here worship the god as Kernos and the godess as Astera..." I'm kind of trying to remember without my books to remind me. Mat T. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Sep 1995 19:26:19 -0400 (EDT) From: MAT TIMMERMAN To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Wish list Message-ID: <01HV9ZWUB9RI8ZDX8L-+AT+-vaxc.hofstra.edu> From: "Angela M." <<<<<<<<< On Thu, 14 Sep 1995 URAMESS-+AT+-aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 95-09-13 01:19:16 EDT, you write: > > > There's another story idea I'd like to see. I wonder if any > >other Skybolts got chosen? > > You know I would also like to see more on Sayvil Vans aunt. I think that I > would also like to see more history. More info on the comapnions, and > finally a compilation of all her short stories involving Tarma and Kethry. This is already something that the group has discussed, but being that I'm new, I missed it, so I'll go right ahead and add a couple of cents to the discussion... I found it very interesting that Kerowyn's Companion is named Savil. *Reeeaal* close to Sayvil. Has there been a discussion on the relationship between Companions and past Heralds? It seems to me that it makes some sense that Companions souls are essentially the reincarnated souls of Heralds. I could be full of s**t, but it's a thought that I've been mulling over for quite awhile. >>>>>>>>> AAAAAAHHHH! This has been bugging me. Lately, lots of people keep getting Savil and Sayvil mixed up. Savil is the Herald-Mage/Van's aunt. Sayvil is Kero's Companion. And, to answer your question Angela, the idea that non-Grove-born Companions are reincarnated Heralds is pretty musch excepted as true around here. List of Herald/Companion similar names that I can remember: Savil/Sayvil Jaysen/Jasen Tantras/Tantris I think there were a few more, but I can't remember them right now. Mat T. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Sep 1995 06:39:53 -0500 From: h-wilfehrt-+AT+-nwu.edu (Helen M. Wilfehrt) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Yfandes (WAS)Re: SR tied into the LHM thread... Message-ID: <199509142339.AA205221978-+AT+-casbah.acns.nwu.edu> > > Why couldn't Yfandes have been grove-born 10 years or more prior >to Vanyel's arrival?? That argument and the "she bore two foals" >argument don't hold water IMHO. We don't KNOW that much about the >grove-born Companions to say whether or not they could bear offspring. >Doesn't Talia tease Skif when Cymry and Rolan go off to themselves at the >Waystation when he meets her and Kris? About the increased fertility of >a grove-born stallion?? So, why couldn't ANY grove-born mare (Yfandes >included) bear foals? Perhaps Yfandes was "called" too early, or >couldn't get to Van to choose him for some reason? There's no reference >to her NOT having Chosen before (just that she hasn't Chosen IN ten >years), as well, maybe there WERE other >Companions that Chose again after the loss of their Herald - at least >back then, and probably still would be rare. > >Cecile Vanyel wouldn't have been Chosen because he didn't have any gifts which would have developed without their channels being burned opened as they did with the return of the gate energy. He only had gifts in POTENTIAL, as Savil found upon testing him, as opposed to having gifts which were underdeveloped as in Talia's case or just errupted as in Tylendel's case. Just because Yfandes exhibited strong gifts doesn't mean she's Grove-born. Ten years anticipating the arrival of a certain individual is a bit much to expect. While on the other hand there being a variety of Companions with a variety of specific skills around - ie. particularly strong Mage gifts or Mind-Healing- isn't too much to expect by my reckoning. Yfandes realized first what Vanyel needed and was able to help him to some extent, but I feel it was more a matter of chance bringing things together. Remember, Companions don't know everything to come, as we have seen; they just tend to have a bit more information to work with. Remember even Vkandis and the Star-Eyed couldn't really tell that the Mage Storms were coming with specific detail nor could they see beyond them. Nor could the Companions prevent Kris's death nor Tylendel's taking revenge. Too many events had to come together in order for Vanyel's Gifts to be awakened and for him to become Heraldic material for the Companions to really anticipate him coming. Helen h-wilfehrt-+AT+-nwu.edu ------------------------------ End of MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 140 *********************************