MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 142 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Need's/Kero's Deities; Twins by Vivian Choh 2) Re: Talia, Rolan, and mindspeaking by mealink-+AT+-syd.au.swissbank.com (Kerry Mealing) 3) Re: Several Things by jhedge-+AT+-waterw.com (Jeanne Hedge) 4) Re: Several Things by jc-+AT+-crosfield.co.uk (Jerry Cullingford) 5) Gods, belief and the like by mel (Melanie Dymond Harper) 6) Re: Several Things by "Edward B. Adams" 7) Re: What if .... by Gyrfalcon 8) Re: Talia, Rolan, and mindspeaking by "Edward B. Adams" 9) hi, stuff on various threads... by Catherine Osborne 10) Re: Several Things by Catherine Osborne 11) Re: LHM (SPOILER) by "Aphrael" 12) Re: Talia, Rolan, and mindspeaking by mel (Melanie Dymond Harper) 13) Re: What if .... by Ina Faye-Lund 14) Re: Need's/Kero's Deities; Twins by "Cecile S. Ueltschey" 15) Re: Translations (was Re: Firecats) by steph-+AT+-escher.mbi.ucla.edu (Stephanie Wukovitz) 16) Re: FWD: Error Condition Re: Re: LHM (SPOILER) by steph-+AT+-escher.mbi.ucla.edu (Stephanie Wukovitz) 17) Re: Several Things by "Cecile S. Ueltschey" 18) Re: LHM (SPOILER) by AnneS3832-+AT+-aol.com 19) Re: Need's/Kero's Deities; Twins by "Jennifer S. Broekman" 20) Re: Talia, Rolan, and mindspeaking by "Jennifer S. Broekman" 21) Re: Talia, Rolan, and mindspeaking by "Jennifer S. Broekman" 22) RE: Lots of things. by Anne Cross 23) Re: Monarch's Own by nomib-+AT+-chem.psu.edu (Naomi) 24) Re: Talia, Rolan, and mindspeaking by "Aphrael" 25) Re: Need's/Kero's Deities; Twins by Mat Timmerman 26) About Talia by WXAV85D-+AT+-prodigy.com (MR DAVID W BAHRKE) 27) Re: LHM (SPOILER) by "Croaker" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 02:42:59 -0400 (EDT) From: Vivian Choh To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Need's/Kero's Deities; Twins Message-ID: On Thu, 14 Sep 1995 RUNDLE-+AT+-wilma.bcasd.az.honeywell.com wrote: > wonder. Anyone have By the Sword handy? Check out that part. Who are > the deities mentioned? I think we'll find that Kero's deities are the > OTHER two aspects of the deity! Okay here is the quote: "Wheat-crowned Agnetha was Rathgar's idea of the appropriate sort of deity for a lady to worship - unlike wild, horse-taming Agnira, Kero's favourite. There was a shrine to Agnetha in the Keep chapel, though the other aspects of the Lady Trine were only represented by little bas-reliefs carved into the pedestal of Agnetha's statue. There in the heart of the chapel, Agnetha smiled with honeyed sweetness over her twin babies...[blah, blah]...While on the pedestal, alternating snowflakes and hoofprints were all there was to show of the other two aspects, Agnoma and Agnira" Well, according to this paragraph, it would seem that Lady Trine is the goddess, and she has three aspects, Agnetha, Agnoma and Agnira (Trine equivalent to three (TRI)?). This goddess is kinda different eh? (Three (odd number) instead of the yin-yangish numbers of two and four.) Two questions arise from this paragraph (I'll admit that they are kinda silly, but I truly am curious): 1) The paragraph makes mention of twin babies. Are babies of deities generally accepted as automatically being deities (I guess I'm thinking Zeus and Athena and the rest of the Greek/Roman deities). If so, could we be talking about a whole family of deities that are separated all over Velgarth (as in these twin babies may be say one set of Need's twin god(esse)s) and 2) Just what is it with Misty and twins? (Being a twin, one tends to notice the constant mention of twins all over the place!) Is Misty a twin herself or something? Let's see...there are Keren and Teren, two sets in Need's Deities, Tylenwhatshisface (Vanyel's first lifebond - Sorry, still haven't bought the books) and his brother (?), Selenay's twins, the gryphons' twins.. and, hey, didn't Vanyel have twins with that hawkbrother (well, maybe hawksister?)? And why are the twins always M/F pair? Is Misty really trying to balance everything out (yin-yang and all that)? Vivian Choh bi189-+AT+-torfree.net v.choh-+AT+-utoronto.ca "I am all that I claim to be. I simply have not claimed all that I am." - M. Lackey, "Oathbreakers" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Sep 95 17:18:19 EST From: mealink-+AT+-syd.au.swissbank.com (Kerry Mealing) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Talia, Rolan, and mindspeaking Message-ID: <9509150718.AA11787-+AT+-syd.au.swissbank.com> > I was just wondering what anyone else thought of why Rolan can't speak to > Talia, if Companions _can_ speak to anyone they want to, even if the person > is not gifted with mindspeech. After all, there have been cases where > Companion have spoken to people who don't have the gift (or at least we > weren't told they had the gift :). Even if it is against the _rules_, there > are situations (I think) where Rolan mindspeaking Talia would be completely > justified. I put it down to Rolan simply not being a powerful enough mind-speaker to overcome Talia's mind-deafness. Remember, he can speak to her if she trances down and he did speak to her when he chose her (presumably because the emotion flood & the bond and all made her more receptive). Companions like Sayvil can speak to anyone she chooses (because she is a very powerful mind-speaker), even if she isn't supposed to under the rules. Just goes to show Companion gifts vary as much as Herald gifts. On that note, I think that the link between Companion's must give them a boost to their mind-speaking - either that or every companion must have at least some mind-speaking ability (rules out Talia reincarnating). It'd be a bit silly to be reborn into a mortal shell and only be able to talk to other Companions who are very powerful mind-speakers (I imagine Sayvil could talk to a rock if she chose). :) There's no indication Rolan had any trouble talking to other companions.. (Though Tantris and Gwena probably are strong mind-speakers. Tantras (the herald(-mage?) was a mind-speaker and Gwena spoke to Rolan across long distances even if she was in a trance to do so). Actually that distance implies that there must be some boosting factor when talking between Companions since: - Rolan can't talk to Talia. - Rolan can talk over extreme distances with another companion. Now even if Gwena is a strong mind-speaker, it'd be too hard to talk to someone who couldn't mind-hear well across that distance. So I'd assume that companions can talk because of the way that they're all linked (as Van indicated in LHM). I just realized that Rolan & Gwena are both grove-born but I can't see offhand how it would affect the example. Enough rambling (apologies, it's been a long Friday). :) Cheers, Kerry. > Comments? > Stacy Hunt DuVall...beware the Chemistry Avenger > duvall.23-+AT+-osu.edu > > "Oh what a goofy work is man!"-The Tick's mind, waxing philosophic > > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 03:39:31 -0400 From: jhedge-+AT+-waterw.com (Jeanne Hedge) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Several Things Message-ID: <9509150739.AA22766-+AT+-water.waterw.com> >First of all, where does it say that MOC has to be a stallion? I >have read most of the books and I don't seem to remember mention that >the MOC has to male. I personally find this idea to be repugnant. >When you think about how open-minded Misty's books are I find it hard >to believe that she would insert a bit of sexism like this in one of >her books. In the first Arrows book, during Talia's first day in classes, during the Orientation class (pg 124), Edric asks Teren this question: "Where did all those Companions come from?" Edric wanted to know. "At first they all came from the Grove in the middle of what we now call Companion's Field, like the first three; other than that, no one knew. After a while, though, the mares began foaling and now all Companions with a single exception are born right here at the Collegium. That exception is the Companion to the Monarch's Own Herald," his glance flickered from Edrik to Talia and back again, so quickly she couldn't be certain she'd seen his eyes move. "THAT Companion appears from the Grove just as the originals did. He is always a stallion, and he never seems to age. He always gives his name to his Herald; the others may or may not do so, and may allow their Heralds to pick a name for them. If he is killed -- and many have been -- another appears from the Grove to take his place. If the Monarch's Own Herald is still living, that is the Herald he Chooses; if not, he stays only long enough to be caparisoned and goes out to seek the next in line. It is usually someone already a Herald or about to receive Whites that he Chooses, but that is not always the case." I think that answers a few of the questions we've been debating. :) Jeanne Hedge jhedge-+AT+-water.waterw.com ======================= "Water, water everywhere, nor any drop to drink..." --Samuel Taylor Coleridge, 'The Rime of the Ancient Mariner' ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 08:57:15 +0000 (GMT) From: jc-+AT+-crosfield.co.uk (Jerry Cullingford) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Several Things Message-ID: <9509150857.AA21240-+AT+-crosfield.co.uk> > > First of all, where does it say that MOC has to be a stallion? I > have read most of the books and I don't seem to remember mention that > the MOC has to male. I personally find this idea to be repugnant. > When you think about how open-minded Misty's books are I find it hard > to believe that she would insert a bit of sexism like this in one of > her books. It's somewhere in _Arrows of the queen_, I think. And more pragmatic than sexist - elsewhere (_Arrows Flight_?) it's mentioned that the MOC is extraordinarily fertile, with (most?/all?) encounters producing offspring (e.g. Skif's Cymry in _AF_). I'd always seen it as one of the ways the Powers behind the companions could influence the number of new companions being produced - and if that's the way you're going to do it, a stallion makes more sense. And there may be a bit of a 'status symbol' aspect to it as well - maybe a stallion is more impressive to people who think of the companions as "horses". -- _|_ / | Jerry Cullingford jc-+AT+-crosfield.co.uk (Work) \_|_ jc-+AT+-selune.demon.co.uk (Home) \__/ Hemel Hempstead, UK jerry-+AT+-shell.portal.com (alternate) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 10:12:20 +0100 From: mel (Melanie Dymond Harper) To: mercedes-lackey Subject: Gods, belief and the like Message-ID: <9509150912.AA28718-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk> On the subject of gods needing worshippers to exist, one book which considers this (albeit a rather extreme case of it :)) is Terry Pratchett's _Small Gods_. One of the gods has had so few worshippers of late that he has turned into a tortoise ... Mel. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 06:42:46 -0400 (EDT) From: "Edward B. Adams" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Several Things Message-ID: On Fri, 15 Sep 1995, MR DAVID W BAHRKE wrote: > First of all, where does it say that MOC has to be a stallion? I > have read most of the books and I don't seem to remember mention that > the MOC has to male. I personally find this idea to be repugnant. > When you think about how open-minded Misty's books are I find it hard > to believe that she would insert a bit of sexism like this in one of > her books. I just finished an e-mail debate over this issue with Aphrael. There is a reference (AOTQ?) which says that the MOC has always been a stallion. What this doesn't prove is that the MOC MUST always be a stallion. I can't really think of why except the possibility that the MOC is the same spirit that is always "recycled" into the next MOC when the old one dies. Otherwise, the diety in charge of this could like sending down stallions. > > The comment about Vkandis not being active in Valdamar, what about > the sun-priest enclaves left in Valdamar? Well, Vkandis didn't seem to be very active in Karse itself for several centuries, so apparently you can have a religion without an active manesfestation of your diety Ned Ned Adams AKA S.Baldric If this is a trial of my abilities, the gods have no sense of proportion sbaldric-+AT+-roanoke.infi.net (Darkwind k'Sheyna) (703) 890-0212 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 07:55:37 -0400 (EDT) From: Gyrfalcon To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: What if .... Message-ID: > was 'Lendel's companion named Gwena? Hmm, I wonder how she's related to > Elspeth's Gwena. IIRC Tylendel's companion was named Gala. So it's probally not the same companion. --Gyrfalcon =======================msowers-+AT+-menger.eecs.stevens-tech.edu=================== Magic still exists. We have only to reach out and touch it, it is a part of the very fabric of the world. When our belief of magic completely dies this universe shall die. Because that magic; Hope, Dreams, Love, Beauty, Wonder, Belief, and Discovery are what make us a people. They are all part of a great Art whose workings are still a mystery but whose applications can be seen every day. If we ever lose the Art mankind shall not last the day. Let the magic that is in us roam free in our work, play, in each other, and most of all in ourselves. Let it roam free or it will die. ============================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 08:11:51 -0400 (EDT) From: "Edward B. Adams" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Talia, Rolan, and mindspeaking Message-ID: On Fri, 15 Sep 1995, Stacy Hunt DuVall wrote: > > I was just wondering what anyone else thought of why Rolan can't speak to > Talia, if Companions _can_ speak to anyone they want to, even if the person > is not gifted with mindspeech. After all, there have been cases where > Companion have spoken to people who don't have the gift (or at least we > weren't told they had the gift :). Even if it is against the _rules_, there > are situations (I think) where Rolan mindspeaking Talia would be completely > justified. HOw about this: maybe Talia's gift served to "block out" her receptivity to mind speach: she is too strongly attunded to empathy to pick up on what Rolan tries to mindspeak to her: it creates a form of "static" which makes it difficult to recieve. I compare it to two nearby stations on a radio: normally you can only listen to the one that the radio is set to, but if the first is quiet and you listen carefully (i.e. Talia trances) you can hear the second. Admittedly, I am groping for an answer that does allow Companions to speak to (almost) everyone: just because I like the idea of Sayvil giving acid comments to anyone who deserves them Are there any other full heralds who can't mindspeak to their Companions? I can't think of any right now, but that doesn't mean much Zhai'helleva Ned Ned Adams AKA S.Baldric If this is a trial of my abilities, the gods have no sense of proportion sbaldric-+AT+-roanoke.infi.net (Darkwind k'Sheyna) (703) 890-0212 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 09:03:37 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine Osborne To: mercedes lackey list Subject: hi, stuff on various threads... Message-ID: A) MOCs can be killed. This is stated in talia's orientation class, I think -- damn, but we get a lot of info out of that thing. Half the proofs given on this list must come from there. B) I agree with whoever said: a Chosen *must* have a gift open when chosen. It can be very, very tiny and is certainly developed by contact with the Companion, but it has to be there. Aside from being blasted, there is no known way to open potential channels. They are simply passed along to offspring, who may or may not have them open around adolescence. C) The dearth of Herald-Mages was only *partly* a result of the war with Karse, and I'm inclined to think a relatively minor part. Leareth had been killing off Herald-Mages for years, remember? Van has a whole little speech when he realizes this where he understands why Mardic and Donni, and various others, died so "easily." Also, he says that Lendel and his predicament at the end of Magic's Pawn was influenced by Leareth. I\/ Catherine Osborne "I will not go down to I\/ Sundancer posterity talking bad I cosborne-+AT+-sidwell.edu grammar." I http://www.sidwell.edu/~cosborne/ --Disraeli ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 09:06:44 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine Osborne To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Several Things Message-ID: On Fri, 15 Sep 1995, MR DAVID W BAHRKE wrote: > First of all, where does it say that MOC has to be a stallion? I > have read most of the books and I don't seem to remember mention that > the MOC has to male. I personally find this idea to be repugnant. > When you think about how open-minded Misty's books are I find it hard > to believe that she would insert a bit of sexism like this in one of > her books. In Talia's orientation class (again.) Teren says it "is always a stallion." I\/ Catherine Osborne "I will not go down to I\/ Sundancer posterity talking bad I cosborne-+AT+-sidwell.edu grammar." I http://www.sidwell.edu/~cosborne/ --Disraeli ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 09:07:22 EST From: "Aphrael" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: LHM (SPOILER) Message-ID: >Just a thought: Why do people assume that there is more than one MOC? >Differing names are not a reason, since the MOC gives his name to his >Herald, always, and I dare anyone to state (with a straight face) that >a high-order Guardian Spirit is incapable of picking himself a new >name and remembering to answer to it. Well, if *I* had to deal with thick-headed Valdemarans for two hundred years or so at a shot, *I'd* want a rest. In fact, I can see it now... "Uh-uh, Taver, I just was down there time before last. Rolan hasn't had a turn yet..." Just a little levity for Friday morning. :) Oh, and by the way, the thesis I mentioned sometime back was turned in last week, and I got the grade...an A....*bow* Zhai'helleva- Lyn I am an idealist. | /> Lynore M. Belzer I don't know where | /< 716/379-3034 lbelzer-+AT+-sbu.edu I'm going, but I'm | -+AT+-}XXXXX(-+AT+-):::<=====================- on my way. | \< St. Bonaventure University -Carl Sandburg. | \> aka Aphrael/Sephrenia ___________________|__________________________________________________ As I lay me down to sleep, this I pray: that you will hold me dear, though I'm far away... Sophie B. Hawkins. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 14:51:25 +0100 From: mel (Melanie Dymond Harper) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Talia, Rolan, and mindspeaking Message-ID: <9509151351.AA04972-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk> [Ned's rather neat theory snipped for space] > Are there any other full heralds who can't mindspeak to their > Companions? I can't think of any right now, but that doesn't mean much > Keren, I think.... Mel. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 15:56:39 +0200 From: Ina Faye-Lund To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: What if .... Message-ID: <199509151356.10655.gjalp.ifi.uio.no-+AT+-ifi.uio.no> On Thu, 14 Sep 1995 14:49:51 +0100, Aphrael said: > AWK! Nonononononono! I think Van was on his way to 'reformation' > before Tylendel suicided. Even before 'Lendel's twin's death. I'm > not sure, as others are, that he would have been eventually chosen. > I still believe that to have been part expediency. I'm not saying he > definately would NOT have been Chosen, I'm just not sure. I think that Van never was really like people pictured him. Remember, when Van and Savil and Tylendel are talking, Savil ask Tylendel why Vanyel seems changed, and Tylendel says that she sees his _real_ self, Vanyel without his mask. I don't think he changed as much as opened up. -- IFL Elen síla lümenn' omentielvo ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 10:09:03 -0500 (CDT) From: "Cecile S. Ueltschey" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Need's/Kero's Deities; Twins Message-ID: On Fri, 15 Sep 1995, Vivian Choh wrote: > On Thu, 14 Sep 1995 RUNDLE-+AT+-wilma.bcasd.az.honeywell.com wrote: > > > wonder. Anyone have By the Sword handy? Check out that part. Who are > > the deities mentioned? I think we'll find that Kero's deities are the > > OTHER two aspects of the deity! > > Okay here is the quote: > > > > Well, according to this paragraph, it would seem that Lady Trine is the > goddess, and she has three aspects, Agnetha, Agnoma and Agnira (Trine > equivalent to three (TRI)?). This goddess is kinda different eh? (Three > (odd number) instead of the yin-yangish numbers of two and four.) > > Two questions arise from this paragraph (I'll admit that they are kinda > silly, but I truly am curious): > > 1) The paragraph makes mention of twin babies. Are babies of deities > generally accepted as automatically being deities (I guess I'm thinking > Zeus and Athena and the rest of the Greek/Roman deities). If so, could > we be talking about a whole family of deities that are separated all over > Velgarth (as in these twin babies may be say one set of Need's twin > god(esse)s) > > <2nd question snipped> Very interesting comparison, Vivian. Since the quote doesn't mention what sex the twins are, we can speculate all we want!! One thing that is missing in all of the mention of religion(s) on Velgarth is a HIERARCHY of deities (e.g. Zeus, KING of the gods, father of many of them; Hera, QUEEN of the gods (using "gods" in a generic, non-gender sense); etc. Zeus was also the son of Chronos, FORMER "top god" before the Olympian pantheon, who overthrew the "old order"). Of course, since I haven't read Storm Warning or Rising, I can't say about Iftel or Karse. But in the ones I do know about, there seem to be relatively few deities in the pantheon and NO ranking. I think Valdemar is probably the most sophisticated country in this recognizing the various gods & goddesses as ASPECTS of the same single pair, as well as several astute individuals. Cecile ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Sep 95 08:20:34 -0700 From: steph-+AT+-escher.mbi.ucla.edu (Stephanie Wukovitz) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Translations (was Re: Firecats) Message-ID: <9509151520.AA13198-+AT+-escher.mbi.ucla.edu> Gyrfalcon and others, You know, the recommended length for .sigs is *4 lines*. Now, I don't tend to be all that anal about sticking *exactly* to that, but my mail reader scrolls through the entire mail msg at one and leaves me stuck at the bottom. It is very helpful to know what the mail might have been about. If the person's .sig takes up THE ENTIRE SCREEN (ahem) this makes life more difficult as I decide which posts to save so that I can read them, etc. THanks! -Stephanie :) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Sep 95 08:25:04 -0700 From: steph-+AT+-escher.mbi.ucla.edu (Stephanie Wukovitz) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: FWD: Error Condition Re: Re: LHM (SPOILER) Message-ID: <9509151525.AA13201-+AT+-escher.mbi.ucla.edu> Kerry and all others :-) I thought the idea behind Talaydras use-names is that when you take a new one, you sort of become a "different person" and that the old one has died (first two Winds books). But who knows, the Bards might have taken the liberty of adding a "first name" to each one's name way back when because they didn't sound very Valdemaran. Or else Taleydras (see I typed it right this time :) customs have shifted since then, which is always possible. -Stephanie ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 10:38:29 -0500 (CDT) From: "Cecile S. Ueltschey" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Several Things Message-ID: Comments on the Companion thread: 1) When the Companions communicate long distances, could they be drawing on the node energy to "boost" their ranges? 2) Our best sources of info on the Companions is the AoQ series when we see everything about Heralds through Talia's (i.e. an Outsider brought In) eyes. When the teachers explain things to her, Misty is telling us. Really, nowhere else is that much information about the Companions spelled out directly, and even then sometimes its "we don't know how or why, but it just is". All the rest is in hints, allusions and very veiled references (except that WE were'nt made to forget Gwena being grove-born). General comments on various threads: The whole series is a work in progress. Remember how thin and short the Arrows books are compared to the other series. They were written first (of the Herald books anyway) and give us some details, but generally broad concepts (lifestyle, govt, religion, etc.). Everything presented in the later-written books has evolved, to a certain point, and will continue with each book. I'm NOT saying that Misty doesn't know where its all going, but that the DETAILS arise along the way. I don't think she has this mage-spelled library with all the history, anthropology, sociology, etc. of Velgarth tucked away somewhere on this plane or another with ALL the pertinent facts, and frankly if she wants to "change her mind" about the Companions habits or abilities she is free to do so. Of course, this will drive US crazy!! Case in point is the Darkover series by Marion Zimmer Bradley (which I love, but does indeed drive me nuts!), whose concept of the world and customs of Darkover throughout its internal history has changed, refined, even matured, so that when she writes about an earlier historical period doesn't always try to be consistent with any other books dealing with the same era. However, it IS fun to speculate, debate and even argue (as long as no one gets singed! ). So....warriors, let the games continue!! Cecile (P.S. Sorry if I got too soapbox-y) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 11:35:00 -0400 From: AnneS3832-+AT+-aol.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: LHM (SPOILER) Message-ID: <950915113459_20095789-+AT+-emout04.mail.aol.com> ::applause for the A:: ::even BIGGER applause for making me laugh on a Very MONDAY seeming friday :: **No- it's YOUR turn, Taver** **Uh-UH . . .I had to deal with them for TWO monarchs, Rolan!** **But I just got COMFORTABLE! Besides, it's nearly been half a millenia since then . . . .** **I don't care, Rolan, now GO, or I'll tell!** **oh all RIGHT, but just once I want a Herald who won't argue back at me in mindspeech . . . Remind me to look for one** Anne ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 11:54:36 -0400 From: "Jennifer S. Broekman" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Need's/Kero's Deities; Twins Message-ID: <199509151554.LAA10890-+AT+-sparky.phast.umass.edu> Vivian Choh wrote: >1) The paragraph makes mention of twin babies. Are babies of deities >generally accepted as automatically being deities (I guess I'm thinking >Zeus and Athena and the rest of the Greek/Roman deities). If so, could >we be talking about a whole family of deities that are separated all over >Velgarth (as in these twin babies may be say one set of Need's twin >god(esse)s) I don't think the twin babies are necessarily deities, chiefly because their function seems to be mostly emphasizing that Agnetha is so very motherly. They seem more likely to be accoutrements or adopted human babies than real baby deities who'll grow up and do something on their own. (Not all the children of the Greek/Roman deities were deities themselves: Hercules, Romulus/Remus, Helen, Castor/Pollux (one of them), etc...) >2) Just what is it with Misty and twins? (Being a twin, one tends to >notice the constant mention of twins all over the place!) Is Misty a twin >herself or something? Let's see...there are Keren and Teren, two sets in >Need's Deities, Tylenwhatshisface (Vanyel's first lifebond - Sorry, still >haven't bought the books) and his brother (?), Selenay's twins, the >gryphons' twins.. and, hey, didn't Vanyel have twins with that hawkbrother >(well, maybe hawksister?)? And why are the twins always M/F pair? Is >Misty really trying to balance everything out (yin-yang and all that)? The twins aren't always m/f pairs. Need's deities are identical twins, Tylendel and his brother, the twins in Talia's orientation class... As for why, well there's the common theory that twins have psychic bonds with each other, which would make them more likely to be Gifted and Chosen. (I'm not sure the gryphons' twins count as twins, the way the human twins do, btw, since both lions and raptors almost always have multiple births, and we know that gryphons can increase the number of kids they have by doing everything well in mating.) (Also, IMO, Misty is putting in bits she thinks she wants in her own life: she's not a twin and she's on her second marriage, so she populates her books with twins and lifebonded pairs...) -jenneke I *am* family. How could I not have family values? Only Boys Accepting Feminism Get Kissed Meaningfully -- Geoff Marcy The only unnatural sexual act is that which you cannot perform. -Alfred Kinsey broekman-+AT+-sparky.phast.umass.edu | http://www-astro.phast.umass.edu/gs/jenn.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 12:01:15 -0400 From: "Jennifer S. Broekman" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Talia, Rolan, and mindspeaking Message-ID: <199509151601.MAA10893-+AT+-sparky.phast.umass.edu> Kerry Mealing wrote: >Just goes to show Companion gifts vary as much as Herald gifts. >On that note, I think that the link between Companion's must give them a >boost to their mind-speaking - either that or every companion must have >at least some mind-speaking ability (rules out Talia reincarnating). I don't think Talia's lack of MindSpeaking ability rules out her reincarnating as a Companion. After all, if the gods want to let her, they can give her the ability. About Gala/Gwena, the most persuasive bit of evidence that they haven't a thing to do with each other is, IMO, that Gwena is such a completely naive klutz in her handling of Elspeth's Quest. Gala had enough experience with 'Lendel to avoid such mistakes... About Companions returning generally, why should they be confined to taking variations on their original names? Yeah, Savil/Sayvil and Jaysen/Jasan and Tantras/Tantris, but why couldn't they have named themselves after a friend they admired? (In Savil/Sayvil's case, there's the personality argument, but in the other two?) My personal bet is that Florian, for example, has "been around" at least two or three times, but came up with a new name everytime. -jenneke I *am* family. How could I not have family values? Only Boys Accepting Feminism Get Kissed Meaningfully -- Geoff Marcy The only unnatural sexual act is that which you cannot perform. -Alfred Kinsey broekman-+AT+-sparky.phast.umass.edu | http://www-astro.phast.umass.edu/gs/jenn.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 12:04:27 -0400 From: "Jennifer S. Broekman" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Talia, Rolan, and mindspeaking Message-ID: <199509151604.MAA10896-+AT+-sparky.phast.umass.edu> Edward B. Adams wrote: >Are there any other full heralds who can't mindspeak to their >Companions? I can't think of any right now, but that doesn't mean much There's the brickhead (Lores?) in _Magic's Power_. I always got the feeling that any Herald who wasn't a MindSpeaker probably didn't chatter with his/her Companion the way that the MindSpeakers do, especially those with generally weak Gifts. -jenneke I *am* family. How could I not have family values? Only Boys Accepting Feminism Get Kissed Meaningfully -- Geoff Marcy The only unnatural sexual act is that which you cannot perform. -Alfred Kinsey broekman-+AT+-sparky.phast.umass.edu | http://www-astro.phast.umass.edu/gs/jenn.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 14:11:36 -0400 (EDT) From: Anne Cross To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: RE: Lots of things. Message-ID: > I'll agree on her being an incredible individual, though. One wonders > where her spirit was when Gwena was incarnated, Elspeth could've used > Yfandes' good sense.:-) > > -jenneke In the Forest of Sorrows with Vanyel and Stefen. Where else would she be? I admit, however, that if I ended up with a Companion, I'd rather have one like Yfandes or Cymry or Tantris or Sayvil than a Grove Born Companion. The ones who were Heralds seem to be far more partners with their Heralds than the Grove Born ones are. I don't like being manipulated. Anne juniper-+AT+-fledge.watson.org ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 14:17:32 -0400 From: nomib-+AT+-chem.psu.edu (Naomi) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Monarch's Own Message-ID: <199509151817.OAA21396-+AT+-portal.chem.psu.edu> >One one point Terren (I think) makes the comment that "The >only Companion who ALWAYS is Grove Born is the MOC". Always grove-born, male and extremly fertile. I wonder if this is the "gods" plan to prevent inbreeding. Naomi ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 15:04:55 EST From: "Aphrael" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Talia, Rolan, and mindspeaking Message-ID: >[Ned's rather neat theory snipped for space] > >> Are there any other full heralds who can't mindspeak to their >> Companions? I can't think of any right now, but that doesn't mean much >> > >Keren, I think.... Ummm...I thought it was Sherril pre-Keren-lifebond. But it could have been Keren, too... Lyn Lyn Belzer * P.O. Box 234 St. Bonaventure, NY 14778 * 716/379-3034 ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* Tell me why then is the hand slow, and the dog bites. Well I don't know. But the sky will fall and heads will roll, and it's all that we can do to wait for the healing, for to carry on, for to stand when all is said and done in the shadow of the rising sun, longing, waiting for the healing... from _Wait for the Healing_, Amy Grant ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 15:25:32 -0400 (EDT) From: Mat Timmerman To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Need's/Kero's Deities; Twins Message-ID: <01HVB5QDRVLE8ZE2AW-+AT+-vaxc.hofstra.edu> From: Vivian Choh <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< <> 2) Just what is it with Misty and twins? (Being a twin, one tends to notice the constant mention of twins all over the place!) Is Misty a twin herself or something? Let's see...there are Keren and Teren, two sets in Need's Deities, Tylenwhatshisface (Vanyel's first lifebond - Sorry, still haven't bought the books) and his brother (?), Selenay's twins, the gryphons' twins.. and, hey, didn't Vanyel have twins with that hawkbrother (well, maybe hawksister?)? And why are the twins always M/F pair? Is Misty really trying to balance everything out (yin-yang and all that)? Vivian Choh bi189-+AT+-torfree.net >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Don't forget Talia's year-mates, Drake and Edric, the twin (m/m) trainees in AotQ. During Orientation, Teren jokes with them about twins. Something always bothered me about the names of Selany's twins and Talia's son. Wouldn't it make MUCH more sense for Talia and Dirk to have named their son Kris, not, um,.... I can't remember. Still, why name Selany's son that - she wasn't specially connected to him, other than as another Herald and subject. Mat T. -------------------------------- | Mat Timmerman | | accmjt-+AT+-hofstra.edu | | mtimmerman1-+AT+-hofstra.edu | -------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 16:01:01 EDT From: WXAV85D-+AT+-prodigy.com (MR DAVID W BAHRKE) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: About Talia Message-ID: <013.01356230.WXAV85D-+AT+-prodigy.com> Here are my $0.02 about Talia mindspeaking. Well not really because I am just raising more questions. If Talia and Rolan can't mindspeak why can she mind-speak to other people, as I seem to remember her doing it the Arrows Trilogy when she worked with other people. I also know that when she first meant Rolan, that Rolan mind-spoke to her. Please can anyone tell me where the quote is about the MOC having to be male. Thanks, David ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 17:34:17 -0400 (EDT) From: "Croaker" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: LHM (SPOILER) Message-ID: <9509152134.AA20811-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk> Not too long ago, Kerry Mealing mumbled something about: > > > Mat T wrote: > > > Hmm. I could be wrong, but it seems that they might not have been > > > Heralds, given that a Companion is never mentioned in the song or > > > elsewhere, wheras Windrider's Darshay is given a very prominent place. > > > Shouldn't Sun and Shadow's hypothetical Companions have been helping in > > > some way (or at least around?) > > Hmm, I always thought that Darshay was the Heir and Windrider was the > > Companion. I mean, Windrider sounds like a Tayledras name, not one > > for the Valdemaran Heir. It could be a name given to a Companion by > > his/her non-Mindspeaking Herald (like Sherril's Silkswift). > Mmm, it seems unlikely that they'd mix the names of the Heir and the > companion. > Y'know, if Windrider was a Tayledras, the wing-clipped reference would > make a lot more sense, especially if his bond-bird had been hurt. > And there has to be some source for the Hawk-brother references that the > Valdemaran people remember in Van's day. Erm. Quoting from the information given in the 'Heralds, Harpers, and Havoc' songbook: Rothas Sunsinger and Lythe Shadowdancer were a legendary pair of early Heralds, the Valdemaran equivalent of Romeo and Juliet. Each of the two lovers was heir to a terrible family curse. Rothas Sunsinger would fall into a trance at dusk, while Lythe Shadowdancer could not bear the touch of the sun. They met at dusk once, and of course fell in love immediately. After much searching and heartache, they finally manage to acquire enough magical power to break both of their spells, and eventually returned to Valdemar, and BECAME Heralds. (emphasis mine.) The motif of self-sacrifice runs through the people of Valdemar, and helps explain the continued popularit of both the Sunsinger-Shadowdancer song cycle and the related Windrider song cycle. Sunsinger and Shadowdancer release the spell-bound Heir of Valdemar -- The Windrider, who had been captured and magically fettered. During the rescue they use their hard-won magic to free the Windrider and his Companion, giving up the chance of breaking their own curses, the ultimate in self-sacrifice for the two frustrated lovers. So, there you have it. It's entirely possible Windrider was Tayledras, or at least Tayledras-trained... but yes, he is the Herald, and Darshay is the Companion. And the reason Sunsinger and Shadowdancer's Companions weren't mentioned in _Sun and Shadow_ is that they weren't Heralds yet, and thus didn't have any. -- =============================================================================== | croaker-+AT+-cyber1.servtech.com | "I *HEARD* That!!!" | | Known to Reality as | -- Warrick Morgannen, | | Chris Nasipak |_________________ Archmage of Pittsburgh. | | http://www.servtech.com/public/croaker/index.html | | =============================================================================== GAT/CS: d? s+:++ a? C++ U*+ P+ L+.5 E W++ N++ K- w--- O+ M-- V- PS+ PE+ Y+ PGP t+ 5++ X++ R+ tv+ b+++ DI- D+ G e+.5 h! r- z? =============================================================================== Copyright 1995, Chris Nasipak. Microsoft Network is prohibited from redistributing this work in any form, in whole or in part. Distribution liscense for this work is available to Microsoft for US$10,000. Distribution constitutes an agreement to these terms. Permission is granted for all other distribution of this complete work. =============================================================================== ------------------------------ End of MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 142 *********************************