MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 145 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) RE: Lots of things. by mealink-+AT+-syd.au.swissbank.com (Kerry Mealing) 2) RE: LHM(SPOILER) by Ina Faye-Lund 3) Re: Talia, Rolan, and mindspeaking by Catherine Osborne 4) Re: Wacky Monarch's Own Theory by Catherine Osborne 5) In defence of Elspeth by Joanna Hilken 6) Well Since I lost the MOC Battle..... by WXAV85D-+AT+-prodigy.com (MR DAVID W BAHRKE) 7) Re: Talia, Rolan, and mindspeaking by "Edward B. Adams" 8) Re: Talia, Rolan, and mindspeaking by Mat Timmerman 9) Re: Monarch's Own by "Thomas, Daria" 10) Re: Lots of things. by "Cecile S. Ueltschey" 11) Re: Lots of things. by "Cecile S. Ueltschey" 12) Re: Alright I surrender by Jean Morrill 13) Re: Yfandes (WAS)Re: SR tied into the LHM thread... by "Cecile S. Ueltschey" 14) Re: LHM(SPOILER) by "Cecile S. Ueltschey" 15) unsubscribing by WMCMILLAN-+AT+-lakers.lssu.edu 16) Re: Yfandes (WAS)Re: SR tied into the LHM thread... by PTJ-+AT+-badger.demon.co.uk (Philip Johnson) 17) Re: In defence of Elspeth by "Cecile S. Ueltschey" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 18 Sep 95 09:18:34 EST From: mealink-+AT+-syd.au.swissbank.com (Kerry Mealing) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: RE: Lots of things. Message-ID: <9509172318.AA19860-+AT+-syd.au.swissbank.com> Adrienne wrote: > On Sun, 17 Sep 1995, Ina Faye-Lund wrote: > > On Fri, 15 Sep 1995 03:01:36 +0100, Kerry Mealing said: > (snip) > > > I think that Van's gifts were being roused slowly by continued > > > proximity to companions and more particularly by his life-bond with > > > a practicing mage. I think Van would have been chosen by Yfandes > > > eventually anyway - he was heading in the right direction and that > > > Tylendel's death just precipated events. (ie, I agree with Aphrael, > > > Catherine, Cecilia and co). > > > > Now, _that_ is a theory I could agree with. > > > I could almost agree with that theory, except Tylendel's death didn't > cause much except Van's attempt at suicide. What tore open's Van's > channels was the release of Gate energy through him when Savil and > ?Jaysen? couldn't ground it properly. But I will admit Van did seem to > be developing Foresight and maybe a little empathy. And he was > developing into a decent human being and a wonderful actor. Whoops. Sloppy writing on my part - what I meant was what you said - the events surrounding Tylendel's death precipated events, ie the Gate surging through Van triggered his gifts completely. (I still think just providing the gate energy did *something* - Van gets an influx of energy from somewhere and Tylendel was in no condition to provide it). Kerry. -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -- Kerry J Mealing mealink-+AT+-syd.au.swissbank.com "Right theory, wrong universe." ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 08:13:21 +0200 From: Ina Faye-Lund To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: RE: LHM(SPOILER) Message-ID: <199509180613.16590.gjalp.ifi.uio.no-+AT+-ifi.uio.no> On Sun, 17 Sep 1995 22:31:57 +0100, Adrienne York said: > No, nobody knows what personality type criteria the Companions base their > Choosing on, but she did know that Companions only choose those with > Gifts. And Savil was second to none in detecting Gifts, Van says so in > the beginning of Magic's Promise. Two possibilities, then. Either, those who are Chosen do have gifts, though they cannot be detected at that point, or things have changed. > BTW, what does that saying mean in the end of your sig, Ina >From Tolkien, Lord of the Rings. Haven't found a fitting sig from Lackey yet, that isn't used. Means "A star shines upon the hour of our meeting". -- IFL Elen síla lümenn' omentielvo ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 08:52:33 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine Osborne To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Talia, Rolan, and mindspeaking Message-ID: On Fri, 15 Sep 1995, Melanie Dymond Harper wrote: > [Ned's rather neat theory snipped for space] > > > Are there any other full heralds who can't mindspeak to their > > Companions? I can't think of any right now, but that doesn't mean much > > > > Keren, I think.... Also (oh god, I forget her name) Talia's guide upon first reaching Haven and her good friend afterward... she names her Companion because he/she can't mindspeak it and at one point, if I'm not mistaken, calls it with a whistle at the Field. I\/ Catherine Osborne "I will not go down to I\/ Sundancer posterity talking bad I cosborne-+AT+-sidwell.edu grammar." I http://www.sidwell.edu/~cosborne/ --Disraeli ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 09:03:45 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine Osborne To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Wacky Monarch's Own Theory Message-ID: On Sat, 16 Sep 1995, Sunfalcon wrote: > anything like this has been suggested, but here goes: Is it possible > that the Monarch's Own lives so long because he functions as some sort > of coordinator for the Web (and, subsequently, the enhancements Vanyel > made to it)? I seem to recall that the reason all the Heralds are tied > into each other (the reason someone with an appropriate Gift is always on > hand to deal with "situations") was because they were all bonded to > Companions. Maybe the M'sO serves as a nexus for them. Then again, > maybe not. =) That is an extremely interesting theory. It strikes me as possible that in the increaseingly wartorn and desperate last days of the Herald-Mages (and I consider Misty's war-evacuation scenes in LHM and BG some of her best writing) someone thought that it would be good to have the Web tied to a non-human, particularly one who lived (almost) forever, or at least until he was killed. I\/ Catherine Osborne "I will not go down to I\/ Sundancer posterity talking bad I cosborne-+AT+-sidwell.edu grammar." I http://www.sidwell.edu/~cosborne/ --Disraeli ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 14:33:52 +0100 (BST) From: Joanna Hilken To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: In defence of Elspeth Message-ID: How did this start about Elspeth as MO? Surely she'd never accept the position because it would start up all the same rumours as her abdication was supposed to damp down, wouldn't it? But just supposing some twist of the plot forced it on her, I'm not sure she'd be so dreadful. Talia was chosen by companions to be MO (very young) to an experienced and highly competent Queen, and with a view to de-bratifying Elspeth. In this context, she is obviously first-rate and Elspeth would be awful. The MO is to suit the monarch. But what Elspeth would have to contribute would be her wide experience of other countries/cultures, and personal understanding of the position of heir/monarch through having been groomed for the post. Could be just the thing for a very young monarch, say one of the twins had to take the crown during a war in which Selenay and the other twin got killed. Besides, anyone who has faced up to the things about themselves that she has would have some good advice to give to a young monarch. I hope this makes sense to someone, Somewhat Nervous first time poster, Joanna ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 08:46:18 EDT From: WXAV85D-+AT+-prodigy.com (MR DAVID W BAHRKE) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Well Since I lost the MOC Battle..... Message-ID: <013.01475595.WXAV85D-+AT+-prodigy.com> I feel like I have to defend Elspeth, since no one else seems to want to. Yes, she can be cold and professional. HOWEVER, there have been occasions where I believe she is really starting to show show some warmth. Like the time she ran after An'Desha(sp?) when she saw the look of despair on his face. As for the charge that she is wrapped up in her gift, look at what they are facing right now! Of course she has she is working almost nonstop 24 hours a day trying to solve the problems of the Mage-Storms. Granted she may not be the perfect person right now, but in the hopefully long time until Talia meets the mysterious Valdamaren deity I think that she will have developed more than enough to become MOC. Zhai'Helleva, David ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 10:26:01 -0400 (EDT) From: "Edward B. Adams" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Talia, Rolan, and mindspeaking Message-ID: On Mon, 18 Sep 1995, Catherine Osborne wrote: > On Fri, 15 Sep 1995, Melanie Dymond Harper wrote: > > > [Ned's rather neat theory snipped for space] > > > > > Are there any other full heralds who can't mindspeak to their > > > Companions? I can't think of any right now, but that doesn't mean much > > > > > > > Keren, I think.... > > Also (oh god, I forget her name) Talia's guide upon first reaching Haven > and her good friend afterward... she names her Companion because he/she > can't mindspeak it and at one point, if I'm not mistaken, calls it with a > whistle at the Field. That's Sherrill (right?), but she was a Herald-trainee at the time. Her mind-speaking was awakened later when Ylsa died. Still, it doesn't matter much anymore because A) theere is another Herald, Lores (from MPromise) who can't Mindspeak to his Companion and B) I can't rememeber why I asked the question in the first place . So thanks for the answers everyone, and when I get enough time to look through my sent mail, maybe I can figure out exactly what crackpot theory I was developing then Zhai'helleva Ned Ned Adams AKA S.Baldric If this is a trial of my abilities, the gods have no sense of proportion sbaldric-+AT+-roanoke.infi.net (Darkwind k'Sheyna) (703) 890-0212 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 11:08:54 -0400 (EDT) From: Mat Timmerman To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Talia, Rolan, and mindspeaking Message-ID: <01HVF3S7C69E8ZE8UM-+AT+-vaxc.hofstra.edu> From: Catherine Osborne <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< On Fri, 15 Sep 1995, Melanie Dymond Harper wrote: > [Ned's rather neat theory snipped for space] > > > Are there any other full heralds who can't mindspeak to their > > Companions? I can't think of any right now, but that doesn't mean much > > > > Keren, I think.... Also (oh god, I forget her name) Talia's guide upon first reaching Haven and her good friend afterward... she names her Companion because he/she can't mindspeak it and at one point, if I'm not mistaken, calls it with a whistle at the Field. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You're thinking of Sherril (or is it Sherill, I can't remember) and her Companion, Silkswift. Sherril had a blocked Mindspeaking Gift. When Keren tried to suicide after Ylsa died, the block broke, and she became a powerful Mindspeaker, like Kyril. Mat T. -------------------------------- | Mat Timmerman | | accmjt-+AT+-hofstra.edu | | mtimmerman1-+AT+-hofstra.edu | -------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Sep 95 11:33:00 cdt From: "Thomas, Daria" To: 'mercedes-lackey' Subject: Re: Monarch's Own Message-ID: <305D9F81-+AT+-mailsrvr.bussvc.wisc.edu> From: Edward B. Adams >This would explain why the MOC is always a stallion: a mare could not >bear enough offspring to counter the effect of the magic fading, >especially if you don't want her pregnant all the time. > >Of course, the inbreding arguement works also, since there was only a >small pool of Grove-born to begin with, however if you consider the low >fatality rate of the MOC (i.e. Taver appearing in both TLHM and in >"Stolen Silver" ) one new MOC every several centuries isn't going to >add much variation Actually, normal inbreeding problems wouldn't occur with Companions-- no bad recessives to begin with! -Daria ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 14:38:16 -0500 (CDT) From: "Cecile S. Ueltschey" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Lots of things. Message-ID: On Sat, 16 Sep 1995, Jill Wilber wrote: > > In the Forest of Sorrows with Vanyel and Stefen. Where else would she > > be? > > > > I admit, however, that if I ended up with a Companion, I'd rather have > > one like Yfandes or Cymry or Tantris or Sayvil than a Grove Born > > Companion. The ones who were Heralds seem to be far more partners with > > their Heralds than the Grove Born ones are. I don't like being manipulated. > > > I think Gwena is the only one like that. I consider Rolan to be a -perfect- > partner for Talia. > > Diamond > > I agree with Diamond. Gwena was being manipulative because of the situation, i.e. that Elspeth had the Mage-Gift and HAD to get training for it. The Companions felt it "best" for her to get White Winds training, hence trying to send her to Kero's cousin and/or uncle, rather that some other school OR from the Shin'a'in or Taleydras. It would have been the "safer" path for her to follow, given the risk of running afoul of a blood-path mage or Ancar if he found out she left Valdemar and could track her. Elspeth, of course, had other ideas - or perhaps she was "guided" by another, more subtle, force??? Cecile ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 14:45:49 -0500 (CDT) From: "Cecile S. Ueltschey" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Lots of things. Message-ID: On Sat, 16 Sep 1995, Helen M. Wilfehrt wrote: > But mind you, Rolan was deeply involved with the manipulation of Elspeth > into following the Companion's plan for her Great Destiny- beginning with > bringing a new Grove Born to be her Companion. Plus he made Talia forget > the arrival of Gwena. > > Helen > h-wilfehrt-+AT+-nwu.edu ALL of the Companions were involved in that one. Elspeth HAD to get her Mage-gift trained and for them the "safest" path was through Kero's connections to the White Winds school. Remember, they didn't trust the Shin'a'in Goddess. Although I think She may have had a hand in Elspeth's rebellion?? Or at least in the Shin'a'in directing her to k'Shena vale. It seems that several pieces needed to get put together to face the coming Mage Storms, and Firesong, Darkwind and An'desha had to get to Valdemar SOMEHOW. The Companions just didn't see The Big Picture so to speak and tried to direct her on too narrow of a path. Cecile ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 12:57:28 -0700 From: Jean Morrill To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Alright I surrender Message-ID: <199509181957.MAA02249-+AT+-virgo.hwr.arizona.edu> Also, isn't Empathy one of the Gift which distinguish MO from other Heralds? Talia has it, Jissa had it. And Elspeth does not have it (that we know of). Jean ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 15:14:08 -0500 (CDT) From: "Cecile S. Ueltschey" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Yfandes (WAS)Re: SR tied into the LHM thread... Message-ID: On Sun, 17 Sep 1995, Edward B. Adams wrote: > Oh, I agree that Grove-born can bear offspring. The reason why I used > the foals in an arguement was to give my reason why Yfandes couldn't have > been Grove-born on the night of 'Lendel's death. > In that sense, I can accept the argument about the foals, but having/not having foals per se does not preclude her being grove-born. > > > Now, Van was only 16 when he was Chosen. If she came to Choose him > > when she was born, or "born", he would only be 6 years old, and that > > would be too early to say anything about what he was going to be. Good point. Someone in an earlier reply also suggested that perhaps she came to choose someone else at that time, but that person died. Also a plausible theory, since we know that the Companions (grove-born or otherwise) are NOT infallible. > > But, what if Yfandes, or some other Companion, _knew_ that in about 10 > > years, there would come one who needed an _adult_ Companion, a grown > > Companion who would not make a mistake? > > In that case, a Grove-born would be the last thing they would want. > Remember that Gwena made all those mistakes in trying to manipulate > Elspeth, and she had about 8 years of experience at the time, and all of > that had been linked to Elspeth. Now, how could Yfandes get the kind of > maturity and experience that she shows in only 10 years of seeing the > Herald's world only second hand through other Companions? > > Remember, that ROLAN made some serious mistakes in handling Elspeth, and > he has been around for about 20-30 years at least (I haven't read "Stolen > SIlver" so I'm not sure how long before AOTQ it takes place) I agree with you here, 10 years would not be enough. > > OK, so a Grove-born might be a more impressive guardian spirit that a > so-called "normal" Companion; but (s)he lacks any true human experience: > the same experience that it seems to me that Yfandes is showing all the > time. Yes, she does have Gifts in excess of the normal, but so does Van. > > Yes, Van does need a special Companion. But he needs a Companion with > the experience not to screw things up. With all due respect to the > Grove-born, I don't think that they truely understand people, at least > not without decades of being bonded to their chosen. > > Finally, when Elspeth and Skif go to visit Kero's old mage (sorry, mind > blank on the name, and my books are buried right now), one of the first > things that he sees is Gwena shining out as the most powerful guardian > spirit that he had ever seen. Now Van spent years in the field with > Yfandes, and he probably had his mage-sight active quite a bit > It would have taken an almost constant effort of Yfandes' > part to mess with Van's head to keep him from noticing: a luxury that > niether of them probably had in the middle of a war zone. Come to think > of it, a Grove-born companion is probably the last one you would want on > a battle line: the white uniforms are bad enough, a Grove-born would > attract the attention of any mage in the area. But didn't Gwena "dim" herself for Quentin so that his Mage-sight _wasn't_ blinded? Yfandes could have done the same _if_ she were grove-born. > Well, I've probably beaten the subject to death by now We both probably have, and I really DON'T KNOW or have a strong opinion either way, but I've sure enjoyed playing Devil's (or Demon's) Advocate in this! Cecile ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 15:34:25 -0500 (CDT) From: "Cecile S. Ueltschey" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: LHM(SPOILER) Message-ID: On Sun, 17 Sep 1995, Jennifer wrote: > >> Companions only choose people with Gifts. As Vanyel had only potential > >> when he came to Haven, Yfandes wouldn't have chosen him if he'd been the > >> nicest, most considerate, most practical kid on Earth. > > > >Hmm. They certainly don't only choose people with *active* gifts; if you look > >at _Arrows of the Queen_ that seems to be the exception rather than the > >rule. If I remember correctly, most peoples Gifts develop *after* they've > >been chosen for a while (with a nudge from the companions, perhaps?). > >Whether that's different from Van's case, I'm not sure - maybe there's a > >distinction between [has potential for gift] [has gift but isn't active] > >and [has active gift] :-). > > / | Jerry Cullingford jc-+AT+-crosfield.co.uk (Work) > > Perhaps, during Vanel's time, only those with active gifts were chosen. > However, by the time Talia was chosen, those with > the potenetial to develop gifts were chosen before their gifts became > active; maybe to avoid the problems that often arose > when previously normal children began exhibiting what might have been viewed > by their families and friends as unusual or > sinister behavior. Remember the reaction that Tylendel's family had when > his mage gift went active. Had he been chosen > before he went active, he would probably have been spared a great deal of > mental anguish. I know I'm rambling but I thought > I'd add my own $0.02 worth. > Jennifer That's a good point Jennifer, I think we tend to forget how much time is passing between books sometimes. After all, we can say that something was "customary" 200 years ago but we can't say it was "always" done. That may be something that the Companions/reincarnated Heralds have learned. Too, it was said in AoQ in Talia's Orientation class (along with the fact that the MOC is always a stallion) that the MOC always goes in search for his Chosen - implying that other Companions do not. So that someone has to be in Haven, unless there are intervening circumstances (like Alberich, Ghost, and Kerowyn and Daren), to be Chosen. And Teren says that no one really knows WHY the Companions pick their particular Chosen. Perhaps their potentials outweigh any character flaws, or just that the Companions are _not_ omnipotent. And as for why Van wasn't Chosen upon arrival at the Collegium, I think has more to do with his dependent-personality rather than lack of active gifts or arrogance or other faults. Remember one of the things that Savil had to work with him on was his emotional dependence on other, stronger personalities. Cecile ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 16:44:51 -0500 (EST) From: WMCMILLAN-+AT+-lakers.lssu.edu To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: unsubscribing Message-ID: How do I unsubscribe from the mailing list? I got on back when I didn't have any NewsGroup access, but since I now am on the newsgroup, I'm getting a lot of duplicate postings. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 18:50:06 GMT From: PTJ-+AT+-badger.demon.co.uk (Philip Johnson) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Yfandes (WAS)Re: SR tied into the LHM thread... Message-ID: <33964-+AT+-badger.demon.co.uk> In message <199509171331.23087.gjalp.ifi.uio.no-+AT+-ifi.uio.no> mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk writes: > On Fri, 15 Sep 1995 01:33:29 +0100, "Helen M. Wilfehrt" said: > > > Fourth; That the deities would not do this to the people, how can you > know? The way Death is pictured, I cannot see why dying should be so > bad? It will give the Heralds a chance to rest, or perhaps get a life > where they don't have to give all they have for Valdemar. > Or, as Terry Pratchett put it: 'Death is but a milestone, albeit one that is droppped on you from a very great height'. Philip -- Philip Johnson 'Never do for yourself what you can con an expert into doing for you' Naismith: 'On War' 'A rational government wouldn't allow him possession of a pocket-knife, let alone a space fleet.' Cordelia, Countess Vorkosigan: 'On Naismith' ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 15:51:56 -0500 (CDT) From: "Cecile S. Ueltschey" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: In defence of Elspeth Message-ID: On Mon, 18 Sep 1995, Joanna Hilken wrote: > How did this start about Elspeth as MO? Surely she'd never accept the > position because it would start up all the same rumours as her abdication > was supposed to damp down, wouldn't it? I sure bet it would start up all those rumours (rumors, here in the US, but let's not start an internet spelling war!) and quite a few more besides. > But just supposing some twist of the plot forced it on her, I'm not > sure she'd be so dreadful. Talia was chosen by companions to be MO > (very young) to an experienced and highly competent Queen, and with a view > to de-bratifying Elspeth. In this context, she is obviously first-rate > and Elspeth would be awful. The MO is to suit the monarch. Oh, I like that "The MO is to suite the monarch"!! Perfect! Remember that Talamir was uncomfortable in advising the young Selenay after her father had been killed, which is one of the things that led to her disastrous first marriage. She needed someone to confide in, and although Talia was young and inexperienced, her strong Empathy gift and Rolan could give the Queen what she needed. They also seemed to be compatible personalities. > But what Elspeth would have to contribute would be her wide experience of > other countries/cultures, and personal understanding of the position of > heir/monarch through having been groomed for the post. Could be just the > thing for a very young monarch, say one of the twins had to take the crown > during a war in which Selenay and the other twin got killed. > Besides, anyone who has faced up to the things about themselves that she > has would have some good advice to give to a young monarch. Yes, this does make sense, Joanna. The only thing that I can argue on that point is that Kero can give the "wide experience" advice (and often does) and she is part of the Heraldic Circle if not on the Council as the Skybolts' Captain. Hopefully with more training and experience, she could serve in the capacity of MO to the twins should something happen to Selenay, Daren and Talia. If the twins are put into their roles too young, both Monarch and Monarch's own will need training. So perhaps she will act as regent or interim-Monarch's Own. BTW, I think that the fact that everyone accepts as given that the twins will be Monarch and Monarch's Own - albeit they have not been Chosen yet - argues for the fact that Selenay, Daren and Talia survive at least until they ARE Chosen, if not mature and trained. Welcome to the list! Cecile (a relative newcomer, herself) ------------------------------ End of MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 145 *********************************