MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 149 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re: SPOILER STORM RISING by "Jennifer S. Broekman" 2) Re: I'm back! by Ian MacDonald 3) Re: Lots of things. by "Jennifer S. Broekman" 4) Re: Wacky Monarch's Own Theory by "Cecile S. Ueltschey" 5) Re: Inherited gifts (spoiler for Winds books) by jc-+AT+-crosfield.co.uk (Jerry Cullingford) 6) RE: LHM(SPOILER) by Catherine Osborne 7) RE: I'm back! by "Scarlett E. Blizzard" 8) Elspeth and manipulation by Vivian Choh 9) Vanyel by Liz Peel 10) RE: LHM(SPOILER) by Adrienne York 11) Gods, Goddesses, etc. (WAS Re: Lots of things.) by "Cecile S. Ueltschey" 12) RE: Yfandes (WAS)Re: SR tied into the LHM thread... by "Brian Cowan" 13) RE: SPOILER STORM RISING by "Brian Cowan" 14) Re: I'm back! by mel (Melanie Dymond Harper) 15) Re: Lots of things. by dstorrs-+AT+-crossover.com (David K. Storrs) 16) RE: I'm back! by dstorrs-+AT+-crossover.com (David K. Storrs) 17) Re: Inherited gifts (spoiler for Winds books) by "Cecile S. Ueltschey" 18) Re: Wacky Monarch's Own Theory by h-wilfehrt-+AT+-nwu.edu (Helen M. Wilfehrt) 19) Re: Inherited gifts (spoiler for Winds books) by h-wilfehrt-+AT+-nwu.edu (Helen M. Wilfehrt) 20) Re: Yfandes (WAS)Re: SR tied into the LHM thread... by h-wilfehrt-+AT+-nwu.edu (Helen M. Wilfehrt) 21) Re: LHM(SPOILER) by h-wilfehrt-+AT+-nwu.edu (Helen M. Wilfehrt) 22) Re: Yfandes (WAS)Re: SR tied into the LHM thread... by "Jennifer S. Broekman" 23) Re: Alright I surrender by "Jennifer S. Broekman" 24) Re: LHM(SPOILER) by Mat Timmerman 25) RE: LHM(SPOILER) by "Cecile S. Ueltschey" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 20 Sep 1995 08:57:14 -0400 From: "Jennifer S. Broekman" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: SPOILER STORM RISING Message-ID: <199509201257.IAA00869-+AT+-sparky.phast.umass.edu> Ian MacDonald wrote: >--SPOILER STORM RISING > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Any way I am half way through Storm Rising so don't spoil the end, but >Do you think Fire song is acting a bit daft in his search for the way >to live on and on, it sort of stuggests he might have been infected by >Maar. Personally I think he is being a bit selfish wanting And'est (SP) for >him self in a horible clingy way. Wonder if that the way ML felt about her >first husband? There was the theory batted about earlier that all of Firesong's childish behavior was attributable to damage done by the mage storms, but I'm not sure I buy that. Firesong was used to being able to find solutions to all the problems which he came across, solutions which left people's jaws gaping in admiration. He was used to being able to keep the attention of anyone in whom he was interested for as long as he was interested. He was used to being the centerpiece of everyone's attention whenever he wanted to be. He was used to being waited on, hand and foot, by servants who neveer demanded anything but his presence in return. In Valdemar, he's presented with a situation to which he cannot find a solution, told that he's not as hot shit as he thinks he is and he'd better get used to it (by Vanyel's spirit), finds himself unable to keep An'desha focusing only on him, informed that magic doesn't work the way he's always thought it did and had this proven to him, and is left entirely servantless. IMO, it's no wonder he slipped into an obsession about something over which he could have exerted the control he was used to. Relatively ordinary modern superstars have worse tantrums when they lose the attention of their captive spouses, after all. -jenneke I *am* family. How could I not have family values? Only Boys Accepting Feminism Get Kissed Meaningfully -- Geoff Marcy The only unnatural sexual act is that which you cannot perform. -Alfred Kinsey broekman-+AT+-sparky.phast.umass.edu | http://www-astro.phast.umass.edu/gs/jenn.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Sep 1995 13:51:53 +0100 From: Ian MacDonald To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: I'm back! Message-ID: <23919.199509201251-+AT+-tardis.ed.ac.uk> > > Maybe the Bardic Gift was dormant in his family and so diluted that > > it wasn't recognized even in the people who had it active and it > > just closed off by itself since he was too busy to train it. > > > It had to be. Remember, Medren got the Bardic Gift, and he probably > got it from Vanyel's brother. > Why is everyone so sure that gifts are herditary(left my self checker at home!) I thought they were gifts from the gods rather than somthing that could be passed from parent to child ian < all of a sudden a whisper of sound occurs then the sound of a body hitting a keyboard. "Good thing we had darts", one of the white coated men said to the other as they dragged ian's body from the terminal.> < ism-+AT+-tardis.ed.ac.uk > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Sep 1995 09:01:47 -0400 From: "Jennifer S. Broekman" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Lots of things. Message-ID: <199509201301.JAA00879-+AT+-sparky.phast.umass.edu> Cecile S. Ueltschey wrote: >Since I'm at work, I don't have an exact quote, but I think its in >Arrow's Fall, when Talia and Kris are going on her training circuit. >He's telling her something about the people up there, and says to the >effect that "They worship the Lady as Astera and the (Lord?) as Kernos" >which implied to me that - at least in Valdemar - there is a central >God/Goddess pair called by different names by Valdemarans. To me, it implied that the northerners had a God/Goddess pair, not that the entire country did. After all, if they'd been going to the area where the People of the One lived, he wouldn't have been able to point to a God/Goddess pair. >Valdemar >seems to have grown by immigration to a certain extent and perhaps >developed this enveloping philosophy to create harmony among disparate >but similar beliefs. Actually, it's stated that the policy has been in place since the Founding, when everyone had very homogeneous beliefs. It isn't something that only grew up when serious immigration started. -jenneke I *am* family. How could I not have family values? Only Boys Accepting Feminism Get Kissed Meaningfully -- Geoff Marcy The only unnatural sexual act is that which you cannot perform. -Alfred Kinsey broekman-+AT+-sparky.phast.umass.edu | http://www-astro.phast.umass.edu/gs/jenn.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Sep 1995 09:02:57 -0500 (CDT) From: "Cecile S. Ueltschey" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Wacky Monarch's Own Theory Message-ID: On Wed, 20 Sep 1995, Adrienne York wrote: > > On Tue, 19 Sep 1995, Ina Faye-Lund wrote: > > > > Also, to tie the web to someone who can be killed, wouldn't that be a > > bit careless? Another thing; other mages could sense the vrondi, > > could they too have become a part of the web, if they tried? Or what > > about others with Mind-Powers? > > I sincerely don't think that someone could just barge into the Web. Two > reasons. First, the link was made through the Companions. Van said > something to the effect of, "the Companions are what made this whole link > possible." > I agree with Adrienne. There would have to be a bond with a Companion for someone to be linked into the Web. I don't think that the vrondi have anything to do with the Web; they just "watch" for non-Herald mages/magic. Cecile ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Sep 1995 14:16:03 +0000 (GMT) From: jc-+AT+-crosfield.co.uk (Jerry Cullingford) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Inherited gifts (spoiler for Winds books) Message-ID: <9509201416.AA00386-+AT+-crosfield.co.uk> > Why is everyone so sure that gifts are herditary(left my self checker at home!) > I thought they were gifts from the gods rather than somthing that could > be passed from parent to child > > ian One major example: Falconsbane. His neat little trick was keyed to the use of a gift (firestarting?) in his descendants. Also, if they weren't inherited, then the attacks on Mages in Vanyels time wouldn't have affected the availability of new mages once the killer was taken out. Hmm. Maybe this isn't exactly strong evidence, what with the Vrondi and all :-) muddying the waters... I *think* there may be some mention somewhere of people inheriting gifts from their parents, but I can't come up with an obvious example :-). -- _|_ / | Jerry Cullingford jc-+AT+-crosfield.co.uk (Work) \_|_ jc-+AT+-selune.demon.co.uk (Home) \__/ Hemel Hempstead, UK jerry-+AT+-shell.portal.com (alternate) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Sep 1995 10:18:21 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine Osborne To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: RE: LHM(SPOILER) Message-ID: On Wed, 20 Sep 1995, Scarlett E. Blizzard wrote: > I always got the feeling that at the time of the testing, Savil was seeing > the Vanyelthat was wearing a *mask*, and as I recall she wasn't too > impressed with him as a person. And since her brother Withren (sp?) frowned > upon her being a Herald, maybe she didn't want to stir up any trouble and > decided not to say anything, since she had absolutely no control over him > getting *chosen* any way. Savil not wanting to stir up trouble? Hmmm. Seems out of character. This thread sure has taken many turns since the original LHM(spoiler)... I\/ Catherine Osborne "I will not go down to I\/ Sundancer posterity talking bad I cosborne-+AT+-sidwell.edu grammar." I http://www.sidwell.edu/~cosborne/ --Disraeli ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Sep 95 16:39:56 CDT (1439Z) From: "Scarlett E. Blizzard" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: RE: I'm back! Message-ID: <9509201446.AA11961-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk> Colette (nimune oceanwalker) wrote: ***************snippety*****snip********snip*****major snips ************ now, how about those elves?! I'm answering your comment about elves because I want to know if anyone has the same reaction to the _Serrated_Edge (I think I did that right?) series, that I do..... which is: I get extremely depressed after reading them. I don't see how Misty could write about such horrid things happening to children as much as she does. I think it's great that she champions children and writes about abuses, but I can't bring myself to read the books more than once. Don't get me wrong --I like the books, but I personally can not handle them, --They make me feel helpless in away.... Seeya!! *************************************************************************** * Scarlett (blizzard-+AT+-wurbpmo.wuerzburg.army.mil * * " An old crest on a new wave " * * If I can be serial for a nanosecond, enough of the handshaking, * *let's jack in and process this system! -Enzio (reboot cartoon charecter) * *************************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 11:49:32 -0400 (EDT) From: Vivian Choh To: Mercedes Lackey mailing list Subject: Elspeth and manipulation Message-ID: I've noticed that Elspeth has an almost violent reaction to being manipulated. Do any of you think that she may be extra sensitive to manipulative forces because of her childhood experiences, when she was being influenced by Hulda to act horribly (and therefore almost lost the chance at being chosen)? ooo..Sorry, bit of a run-on sentence there, eh? Vivian Choh bi189-+AT+-torfree.net v.choh-+AT+-utoronto.ca "I am all that I claim to be. I simply have not claimed all that I am." - M. Lackey, "Oathbreakers" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Sep 1995 12:05:13 -0700 From: Liz Peel To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Vanyel Message-ID: <199509201905.MAA09575-+AT+-one.htsd.k12.pa.us> If that big mess with Tylendel hadn't happened, Van's gifts would probably have been opened anyway. Didn't they open a little before he died, when 'lendel summoned the demons or whatever? here's my scenario- Vanyel is in Haven, waiting for 'Lendel to come back from the border or something, 'Lendel gets in big trouble and accidentally draws on Vanyel's Mage-Gift. BOOM!!!! Vanyel's channels get blasted open and he gets chosen. -Liz ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Sep 1995 12:27:30 -0400 (EDT) From: Adrienne York To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: RE: LHM(SPOILER) Message-ID: On Wed, 20 Sep 1995, Scarlett E. Blizzard wrote: > > > On Thu, 14 Sep 1995 18:49:16 +0100, Eugene said: > > > > > > > True, but does Savil not state that she is dissapointed that none of > > > Treesa and Withen's children share her gifts. Vanyel remembers her > > > saying this after she tests him for Gifts and he comes up with > > > "potential only". Surely Savil would have said something at this > > > point like "well if he gets chosen he'll develop gifts", or something > > > similiar, if this were possible. > >snip>>snip>> > > I always got the feeling that at the time of the testing, Savil was seeing > the Vanyelthat was wearing a *mask*, and as I recall she wasn't too > impressed with him as a person. And since her brother Withren (sp?) frowned > upon her being a Herald, maybe she didn't want to stir up any trouble and > decided not to say anything, since she had absolutely no control over him > getting *chosen* any way. Can you honestly imagine *Savil* being intimidated by *Withen*? A goddess maybe, but not Withen. And since the Companions had chosen such illustrious individuals as thieves and pickpockets, I don't think a little mask would pose that great a problem. 2 (and a half) cents, ;];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];] ;] Adrienne York-Minor ;] ;] "May your life be interesting" potent Shin'a'in curse ;] ;] ayork-+AT+-simons-rock.edu ;] ;];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];] ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Sep 1995 11:38:35 -0500 (CDT) From: "Cecile S. Ueltschey" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Gods, Goddesses, etc. (WAS Re: Lots of things.) Message-ID: On Wed, 20 Sep 1995, Jennifer S. Broekman wrote: > Cecile S. Ueltschey wrote: > >( (Kris is) telling (Talia) something about the people up there, and says to the > >effect that "They worship the Lady as Astera and the (Lord?) as Kernos" > >which implied to me that - at least in Valdemar - there is a central > >God/Goddess pair called by different names by Valdemarans. > > To me, it implied that the northerners had a God/Goddess pair, not > that the entire country did. But why emphasize the differing names/titles? (e.g. the Lady AS Astera, implying that _their name_ for the Herald's "Bright Lady" was "Astera", etc. Same Goddess, different name or aspect.) >After all, if they'd been going to the > area where the People of the One lived, he wouldn't have been able to > point to a God/Goddess pair. True, then the conversation would have been different. He probably would have explained whatever he knew about the monotheistic religion. Or refered to things that Mero (the Collegium cook) had said. On that subject, perhaps the worship of "the One" was a "newer" belief system realtive to the "Sacred Couple" (thanks to whomever coined that!), like when Abraham and his people left Ur at the directions of "the Lord God" - the founding, if you will, of the Judeo-Christian-Islam monotheism. We really don't know how it fits in, only that some of the other Valdemarens think its a little strange (including Heralds). OR, like Vkandis' consort, one of them got "lost"??? (I admit, that's a stretch in this case!) Interesting that only two monotheistic religions are mentioned at all, and Vkandis' seems to have changed from a dual theology to a monotheistic one (hopefully we'll find out more about that in the other Storms books! > Actually, it's stated that the policy has been in place since the > Founding, when everyone had very homogeneous beliefs. It isn't > something that only grew up when serious immigration started. Touche, jenneke! I must have missed that along the line. Although... SPOILER ALERT for those who haven't read Storm Warning yet (and I'm only 2/3rds through it) ***SPOILER****** Tremane keeps refering to "the forty little gods" and that the worship of the Emporer and his ancestors was put into place ALONGSIDE whatever belief/worship/deity systems existed in the areas that they conquered. Since Baron and Lady Valdemar and their people were fleeing the Empire, the argument could be made either way that they had a homogenous belief system. Perhaps this philosophy came about because in his Barony, there existed several belief systems and that was their way of accomodating them even before the "escape". Cecile P.S. - BTW, I like a lot of your comments! Looking forward to more friendly, enlightened debate. -C ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Sep 95 16:50:50 UT From: "Brian Cowan" To: "'mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk'" Subject: RE: Yfandes (WAS)Re: SR tied into the LHM thread... Message-ID: > Where do you get that from? I mean, about all born Companions are > reincarnated Heralds? Can't remember to have found anything about > that. Well, I believe it's in the first book of Mage storms (_Storm_Warning_), where the young sun-priest's (whose name escapes me) firecat (whose name also escapes me, the coffee hasn't kicked in yet) makes an off-handed comment about the reason there aren't as many Firecat's available as Companions is because there are more Herald-spirits available. Brian ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Sep 95 17:04:19 UT From: "Brian Cowan" To: "mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk"-+AT+-msn.com Subject: RE: SPOILER STORM RISING Message-ID: -jenneke wrote: > There was the theory batted about earlier that all of Firesong's > childish behavior was attributable to damage done by the mage storms, > but I'm not sure I buy that. > Relatively ordinary > modern superstars have worse tantrums when they lose the attention of > their captive spouses, after all. Well, I wasn't too fond of the way Misty dug herself out of this hole -- Firesong's incipient MegaloMania -- but I can't think of any "simple" way to keep him around. No-one ever said growing up is easy, and having everything he relied upon -- magic, being the center of attention, more or less being allowed to act like a spoiled child -- dry up and blow away could have unbalanced him. As far as the story that "this has happened to other mages" is concerned, it could be just that -- a story to 1) get Firesong to accept treatment, and 2) keep Firesong's from getting too tarnished by his behavior. Brian ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Sep 1995 18:21:04 +0100 From: mel (Melanie Dymond Harper) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: I'm back! Message-ID: <9509201721.AA17714-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk> > Why is everyone so sure that gifts are herditary(left my self checker at home!) > I thought they were gifts from the gods rather than somthing that could > be passed from parent to child > I have this vague recollection that they were thought to be hereditary in Vanyel's time, to some degree; I think it may be when Vanyel is discussing the children he's fathered, and there is one with no Gifts at all -- this seemed to be thought unusual. Also -- *thinks* -- isn't there some comment about Jisa's gifts being more appropriate for one fathered by Van, rather than by Randale? M. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Sep 1995 12:18:29 -0400 From: dstorrs-+AT+-crossover.com (David K. Storrs) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Lots of things. Message-ID: <199509201618.MAA05741-+AT+-prague.crossover.com> Hello from the newbie... :> [Summary of several snipped bits from Adrienne York's mail:] >> > [ Validemar is probably the most sophisticated country in... recognizing the various gods & goddesses as ASPECTS of the same single pair, >> > [I disagree. Valdemar does not consider the various gods/godesses as >> > aspects. The rule is that "there is no one true way". ] >> >> [Since I'm at work, I don't have an exact quote, but I think its in >> Arrow's Fall, when Talia and Kris are going on her training circuit. >> He says to the effect "They worship the Lady as Astera and the (Lord?) as Kernos" which implied to me that - at least in Valdemar - there is a central >> God/Goddess pair called by different names by Valdemarans. > [lots of other Valdemaran religions are non-dualistic. I really don't think they believe the only structure of beliefs is the Sacred Couple. ] As I recall from one of the Vows and Honor books...Oathbreakers, I believe...the Star-Eyed appeared to Tarma at one point and made some comment to either Keth or the herald they were with...Prince Whatshisname...saying "I am another aspect of your Lady Windborn" [yeesh...it's been too long since I read these...all the details have turned to memory-mush] Dave ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Sep 1995 12:39:47 -0400 From: dstorrs-+AT+-crossover.com (David K. Storrs) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: RE: I'm back! Message-ID: <199509201639.MAA05770-+AT+-prague.crossover.com> >Colette (nimune oceanwalker) wrote: > >***************snippety*****snip********snip*****major snips ************ >now, how about those elves?! > >I'm answering your comment about elves because I want to know if anyone >has the same reaction to the _Serrated_Edge (I think I did that right?) >series, that I do..... which is: I get extremely depressed after reading >them. I don't see how Misty could write about such horrid things >happening to children as much as she does. I think it's great that she >champions children and writes about abuses, but I can't bring myself to >read the books more than once. Don't get me wrong --I like the books, but >I personally can not handle them, --They make me feel helpless in away.... > True, she writes about horrible abuses to children, but notice that the story always ends up positively...think of it as catharsis. BTW -- there was one of the Serrated Edge books that I'm sure I read, but I can't remember it, and it's really bothering me. There were two books with Joe, the son of the paramilitary cultist/preacher guy, in them. One was Burning Chrome, where we meet Tannim's 'evil twin' (I liked the light touches of humor in that one... "Oh my god, an 'evil twin' epsidoe," though Tannim. "If this were the late movie, I'd turn it off." [[Not an exact quote, since I'm at work, but close]]. Anyway, the OTHER book is the one that I'm trying to remember...it features a young girl, in the game of the preacher, and that's about all I remember. Can anyone help me out? Dave ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Sep 1995 13:23:49 -0500 (CDT) From: "Cecile S. Ueltschey" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Inherited gifts (spoiler for Winds books) Message-ID: On Wed, 20 Sep 1995, Jerry Cullingford wrote: > > > Why is everyone so sure that gifts are herditary(left my self checker at home!) > > I thought they were gifts from the gods rather than somthing that could > > be passed from parent to child > > > > ian > > One major example: Falconsbane. His neat little trick was keyed to the > use of a gift (firestarting?) in his descendants. > > Also, if they weren't inherited, then the attacks on Mages in Vanyels time > wouldn't have affected the availability of new mages once the killer was > taken out. Hmm. Maybe this isn't exactly strong evidence, what with the > Vrondi and all :-) muddying the waters... > > I *think* there may be some mention somewhere of people inheriting gifts > from their parents, but I can't come up with an obvious example :-). > What about Wintermoon (Darkwind's brother)? He was the result of a contract liason between a woman of another Vale and Starblade; and since he DIDN'T have any Mage-gift, Starblade was disappointed in him and didn't give him the attention he needed. Therefore, among Tayledras the Gift is expected to be inherited. Also, Vanyel having a liason with the unnamed Tayledras woman that wanted offspring that had the Mage-gift (Brightstar - Firesong's ancestor), didn't she want a Gifted child and that's why Vanyel was the father? I would imagine that both heredity AND divine randomness (??) would play a part. What is it that MAKES the Gifts that are needed appear WHEN needed, if not a "divine spark" if you will? It would appear not to be a dominant trait tho, because of Vanyel's offspring, three were Gifted and one was not (sounds just like those genetics problems in high school biology!). Perhaps the "genes" for the different Gifts need to be in certain combinations with other characteristics to develop?? Hoo-boy! This could get real complicated!! Cecile ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Sep 1995 01:59:16 -0500 From: h-wilfehrt-+AT+-nwu.edu (Helen M. Wilfehrt) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Wacky Monarch's Own Theory Message-ID: <199509201858.AA064613496-+AT+-casbah.acns.nwu.edu> [snip] >> >> I sincerely don't think that someone could just barge into the Web. Two >> reasons. First, the link was made through the Companions. Van said >> something to the effect of, "the Companions are what made this whole link >> possible." > >> >I agree with Adrienne. There would have to be a bond with a Companion >for someone to be linked into the Web. I don't think that the vrondi >have anything to do with the Web; they just "watch" for non-Herald >mages/magic. > >Cecile > My understanding of the Web as formed under Vanyel was that the Vrondi were part of the Web in a manner - in part the Web was how the Vrondi understood who were Heralds and who weren't. Helen h-wilfehrt-+AT+-nwu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Sep 1995 01:59:22 -0500 From: h-wilfehrt-+AT+-nwu.edu (Helen M. Wilfehrt) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Inherited gifts (spoiler for Winds books) Message-ID: <199509201858.AA065093502-+AT+-casbah.acns.nwu.edu> > >> Why is everyone so sure that gifts are herditary(left my self checker at home!) >> I thought they were gifts from the gods rather than somthing that could >> be passed from parent to child >> >> ian > >One major example: Falconsbane. His neat little trick was keyed to the >use of a gift (firestarting?) in his descendants. > >Also, if they weren't inherited, then the attacks on Mages in Vanyels time >wouldn't have affected the availability of new mages once the killer was >taken out. Hmm. Maybe this isn't exactly strong evidence, what with the >Vrondi and all :-) muddying the waters... > >I *think* there may be some mention somewhere of people inheriting gifts >from their parents, but I can't come up with an obvious example :-). > > >-- > _|_ > / | Jerry Cullingford jc-+AT+-crosfield.co.uk (Work) > \_|_ jc-+AT+-selune.demon.co.uk (Home) >\__/ Hemel Hempstead, UK jerry-+AT+-shell.portal.com (alternate) > > Yeah...An'desha and/or Falconsbane mentioned that way back when Falconsbane/Ma'ar spent a lot of effort ensuring a continuing line of descendents on the hopes that most would carry his Mage Gift. Plus it was also mentioned that Nyara's children would carry the Mage Gift as part of their genetic legacy from Falconsbane. A few more examples are sitting on the tip of my tongue but won't make it down to my keyboard right now.... Helen h-wilfehrt-+AT+-nwu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Sep 1995 01:59:14 -0500 From: h-wilfehrt-+AT+-nwu.edu (Helen M. Wilfehrt) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Yfandes (WAS)Re: SR tied into the LHM thread... Message-ID: <199509201858.AA064493494-+AT+-casbah.acns.nwu.edu> > >[Jennifer S. Broekman] > >> Ina Faye-Lund wrote: > >> 10 years isn't enough to give any meaningful worldly experience, so >> why would the deity drop a grove-born 10 years early? Since all born >> Companions are reicarnated Heralds, the argument of her having to bear >> those two foals doesn't hold any water, since any Companion mare >> could've done the same. > > >Where do you get that from? I mean, about all born Companions are >reincarnated Heralds? Can't remember to have found anything about >that. > >IFL > >Elen sla lmenn' omentielvo > Reincarnated Heralds as Companions has been suggested by various hints in the books (eg. name similarities between former Heralds and Current Companions as in Vanyel's aunt Savil and Kero's Companion Sayvil - both of whom share similar personalities) and speculations on the part of the readers. More concrete discussions of this in the books lie in Storm Warning (which I have read) and, from what I've heard, Storm Rising (which I haven't). Helen h-wilfehrt-+AT+-nwu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Sep 1995 01:59:10 -0500 From: h-wilfehrt-+AT+-nwu.edu (Helen M. Wilfehrt) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: LHM(SPOILER) Message-ID: <199509201858.AA064273488-+AT+-casbah.acns.nwu.edu> >Not always, anyway. Remember, plenty of Heralds were Chosen outside >Haven. I think that the point was that MOC _always_ searches for his >Chosen. Then, there is another question; Shavri was at Haven when >she was Chosen, wasn't she? And Jisa was supposed to be Taver's next >choice. How, then, can Taver go searching for the MO? > Quoting from Teren's Orientation speech..." ....now all Companions with a single exception are born right here at the Collegium. That exception is the Companion to the Monarch's Own Herald.....(he describes the MOC)... If he is killed - and many have been - another appears from the Grove to take his place. If the Monarch's Own Herald is still living, that is the Herald he Chooses; if not, he stays only long enough to be caparisoned and goes out to seek the next n line. It is usually someone already a Herald or about to receive his Whites that he Chooses, but that is not always the case.." and from Selenay's explanations to Talia upon her arrival " It's a rather odd thing, but for various reasons anyone who is of the proper material to be a Herald finds his or her way to the city, the Court, or the Collegium more often than not. Sometimes, though, the Companions have to go seeking their Heralds themselves. There's one Companion that always does this; tell me, in the tales you read, did you ever come across the title 'the Monarch's Own Herald' ?...(she goes on and describes a MO's duties) ...When that Herald dies, the Companion leaves the Collegium to search the Kingdom for a successor. In the past reigns that hasn't taken more than a day or two, and quite often he Chooses someone who is already a Herald or nearly ready to be made one. This time, though, it was different. When Herald Talamir died, his Companion was gone for nearly two months, something that hasn't happened in a very long time....Well, we think it has something to do with the current situation (she goes on & describes the deal with the Brat)." So the MOC will deliberately go seek his Herald whether it be within the confines of Haven itself like Shavri or Jisa or outside Haven like Talia where someone with a special blend of skills was needed to deal with the current situation. The other Companions, however, likely pick people near Haven. However, that doesn't entirely explain situations like Alberich...the arrival of Tashir's Companion Ghost can be explained by the presence of the Valdemaren Envoy's Companion. I wonder if some of those outsiders who get Chosen may have at one point been in some contact with a Companion or Herald - like that boy Talia noticed on her Internship and whom she mentioned to Rolan. Helen h-wilfehrt-+AT+-nwu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Sep 1995 15:11:46 -0400 From: "Jennifer S. Broekman" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Yfandes (WAS)Re: SR tied into the LHM thread... Message-ID: <199509201911.PAA01172-+AT+-sparky.phast.umass.edu> Ina Faye-Lund wrote: >Where do you get that from? I mean, about all born Companions are >reincarnated Heralds? Can't remember to have found anything about >that. >From the analogy to FireCats and the fact that they are all 'spirit', according to Kethry, Tarma, Quenten, etc. >> The Grove-born Companions are *born* *adult*. She wouldn't need 10 >> years to grow up if she was Grove-born. (Besides which, I got the >> feeling that Yfandes was at least 14 when she Chose Vanyel, since no >> one would've expected her to choose earlier than 8-10...) >I was not thinking of _adult_ in the physical sense. But Yfandes _do_ >seem more mature than both Gwena and Gala. Yfandes must have been at >least 20, since the Companions don't Choose until they are at least >10, and Yfandes had been able to Choose for at least 10 years. Yes, so... Why should this mean that Yfandes was Grove-born? (Gala wasn't, btw...) >What I mean is, that perhaps whatever deity watches over Valdemar >doesn't see Death as the evil some tend to see it as. Death is an end >to something, and also a new beginning. So, I cannot see _why_ the >deity shouldn't be able to let a Herald die if Valdemar survives. What I don't understand is why the fact that Death isn't pictured as an evil makes you (or anyone) think that the relevant deity would plan someone's death in advance, *even* *for* *a* *greater* *good*. How could a deity that goes in for Light and Free Will say, okay, now we're going to kill Tylendel (or let Tylendel die) so that Vanyel'll be turned into a really powerful Mage and save Valdemar's butt? I'm not saying that the deity is going to prevent any deaths, but I have strong objections to the notion that any death is planned by the deity, for the greater good or not. -jenneke I *am* family. How could I not have family values? Only Boys Accepting Feminism Get Kissed Meaningfully -- Geoff Marcy The only unnatural sexual act is that which you cannot perform. -Alfred Kinsey broekman-+AT+-sparky.phast.umass.edu | http://www-astro.phast.umass.edu/gs/jenn.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Sep 1995 15:18:07 -0400 From: "Jennifer S. Broekman" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Alright I surrender Message-ID: <199509201918.PAA01179-+AT+-sparky.phast.umass.edu> Jerry Cullingford wrote: >On the other hand, given 's performance with Selenay - >or the little we hear about it - I'm still not convinced he had empathy in >any useful ammount - what do the rest of you think? My guess would be that one can have enough Empathy/MindHealing to make a good Monarch's Own for one person, and still not be comfortable giving personal advice to the next Monarch. I don't imagine that being over 60 and having to tell a headstrong, attractive, teenaged Monarch that she's being an idiot about her personal life is an easy thing. Even if one knows that she's being an idiot and knows the words to say to her about it, they may not be words that one is comfortable saying, and that can entirely ruin the effect... -jenneke I *am* family. How could I not have family values? Only Boys Accepting Feminism Get Kissed Meaningfully -- Geoff Marcy The only unnatural sexual act is that which you cannot perform. -Alfred Kinsey broekman-+AT+-sparky.phast.umass.edu | http://www-astro.phast.umass.edu/gs/jenn.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Sep 1995 16:34:51 -0400 (EDT) From: Mat Timmerman To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: LHM(SPOILER) Message-ID: <01HVI7GIMCLE90ORFH-+AT+-vaxc.hofstra.edu> > From: Ina Faye-Lund > [Cecile S. Ueltschey] Some stuff snipped.. > > Too, it was said in AoQ in Talia's Orientation class (along with the > > fact that the MOC is always a stallion) that the MOC always goes in > > search for his Chosen - implying that other Companions do not. > > > Not always, anyway. Remember, plenty of Heralds were Chosen outside > Haven. I think that the point was that MOC _always_ searches for his > Chosen. Then, there is another question; Shavri was at Haven when > she was Chosen, wasn't she? And Jisa was supposed to be Taver's next > choice. How, then, can Taver go searching for the MO? > I think that I have an idea of what Teren meant about the MOC always searching. If you look at the "normal" Caompanions, many of them seem to sit around the Field, waiting for their Chosen to show up in Haven. Like, for example, Kris' Companion Tantris. Kris wanted to be a Herald, but it wasn't until he went to Court with his parents that he was Chosen. IIRC, something like that happened to Dirk too. So, I think the difference between MOC Choosing is that other C's can go looking for a Chosen, or sit around and wait for him/her. The MOC, OTOH, must Choose someone right away. Remember that Shavri and Jisa being in Haven and Chosen as MOH is the norm. Talia's was the more abnormal Choosing. Didn't someone say that it had been a long time since the MOC left Haven for the MOH? The thing about searching for a new MOH just means that the MOC can't just sit around on his duff like other C's can, waiting for the new MOH to show up. Whew, am I out of breath now (or, since I'm typing, having tired fingers is more like it :) ) Mat T. -------------------------------- | Mat Timmerman | | accmjt-+AT+-hofstra.edu | | mtimmerman1-+AT+-hofstra.edu | -------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Sep 1995 15:44:24 -0500 (CDT) From: "Cecile S. Ueltschey" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: RE: LHM(SPOILER) Message-ID: On Wed, 20 Sep 1995, Adrienne York wrote: > On Wed, 20 Sep 1995, Scarlett E. Blizzard wrote: > > > > > On Thu, 14 Sep 1995 18:49:16 +0100, Eugene said: > > > > > > > True, but does Savil not state that she is dissapointed that none of > > > > Treesa and Withen's children share her gifts. Vanyel remembers her > > > > saying this after she tests him for Gifts and he comes up with > > > > "potential only". Surely Savil would have said something at this > > > > point like "well if he gets chosen he'll develop gifts", or something > > > > similiar, if this were possible. > > >snip>>snip>> > > > > I always got the feeling that at the time of the testing, Savil was seeing > > the Vanyelthat was wearing a *mask*, and as I recall she wasn't too > > impressed with him as a person. And since her brother Withren (sp?) frowned > > upon her being a Herald, maybe she didn't want to stir up any trouble and > > decided not to say anything, since she had absolutely no control over him > > getting *chosen* any way. > > Can you honestly imagine *Savil* being intimidated by *Withen*? A > goddess maybe, but not Withen. And since the Companions had chosen such > illustrious individuals as thieves and pickpockets, I don't think a > little mask would pose that great a problem. > I agree with Adrienne. Savil was definately not intimidated by Withen. However, she may have taken the diplomatic route knowing that it would make trouble for Vanyel (not that he didn't have enough already!) AND the rest of the household. Then again, maybe not. I still agree with the proposition that it wasn't TIME for Vanyel to be Chosen (I'm sorry that I can't recall who that was), that he needed more emotional maturity (which perhaps said thieves and pickpockets had). It's never said that the Herald-Mages *knew* who would or would not be Chosen, that's up to the Companions, I think that they could only spot actual, potential or latent Gifts. I will repeat something that has been stated before: it doesn't seem to matter if the Gifts are still only "potential" or have already developed by the time of Choosing. As some Heralds' Gifts seem to be only rudimentary at best, and other Gifts would be downright _dangerous_ to develop without training (Griffon's Firestarting, for example), it would seem that the Gifts are a secondary consideration to _character_ (or is this Heresy???). Only the Companions (and ML!) know for sure :-) !! On rereading this, I guess it could be argued that Scarlett's reference to Vanyel's "mask" was inhibiting his maturation and development of a less-self-centered attitude, thus preventing his Choosing at an earlier time. But I still don't think that Savil, for all her wisdom, could predict who would or would not be Chosen. Question: It appears that we've all interepreted "the testing" that is referred to is a testing of who is Herald material and might be Chosen. But maybe it is only a testing of Mage-gift? So that the Heralds could make sure that Mage-Talented people got *good*, ethical training rather that be taken in by a Blood-path mage?? Cecile Dang! Sorry this is a long post. Once I got started thinking, I couldn't stop! (Where's those guys with the darts....OH NOOOOOO!) ------------------------------ End of MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 149 *********************************