MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 151 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re: Wacky Monarch's Own Theory by mel (Melanie Dymond Harper) 2) RE: LHM(SPOILER) by "Aphrael" 3) Darting people (was RE: LHM(SPOILER)) by Gyrfalcon 4) Re: LHM(SPOILER) by Ina Faye-Lund 5) Question about the MOC by dstorrs-+AT+-crossover.com (David K. Storrs) 6) Storm Warning (God question) by Michele.H.Chang-+AT+-Dartmouth.EDU (Michele H. Chang) 7) Re: Wacky Monarch's Own Theory by Ina Faye-Lund 8) Re: LHM(SPOILER) by "Cecile S. Ueltschey" 9) Re: Wacky Monarch's Own Theory (fwd) by "Cecile S. Ueltschey" 10) Re: Another Companion Thought by "Cecile S. Ueltschey" 11) Re: Things by KJohn20849-+AT+-aol.com 12) RE: Another Companion Thought by "Thomas, Daria" 13) Re: Inherited gifts (spoiler for Winds books) by Adrienne York 14) Re: LHM(SPOILER) by Adrienne York 15) Re: LHM(SPOILER) by Adrienne York 16) Re: Wacky Monarch's Own Theory by mel (Melanie Dymond Harper) 17) RE: LHM(SPOILER) by Adrienne York 18) Re: Vanyel by Adrienne York 19) Lifebonds by Adrienne York 20) Re: LHM(SPOILER) by "Cecile S. Ueltschey" 21) Re: Elspeth and manipulation by "Cecile S. Ueltschey" 22) Re: Storm Warning (God question) by "Jennifer S. Broekman" 23) Re: Storm Warning (God question) by "Aphrael" 24) Re: Lots of things. by "Cecile S. Ueltschey" 25) Re: Wacky Monarch's Own Theory by "Jennifer S. Broekman" 26) RE: LHM(SPOILER) by "Cecile S. Ueltschey" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 13:14:46 +0100 From: mel (Melanie Dymond Harper) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Wacky Monarch's Own Theory Message-ID: <9509211214.AA23380-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk> > > This is the only reference to this in any of the books, and > > Vanyel was startled that it happened. But, according to my > > understanding of how the Web Mk II was established, the Vrondi > > should immediately have realized that Van was a Herald and not > > tapped him. What's the deal? > > > How do the vrondi recognize the Heralds? Clothing or the Companion, > probably. At least, that would be my guess. Ok, now, Vanyel is at > home, he is supposed to rest, and so, he wears _not_ his usual, white > uniform, but civilian clothes. Right? And, he wanted to think > something through, and so, he took another horse, _not_ Yfandes. So, > what do we have? A mage. There is nothing for the vrondi to tell > that he is a Herald-Mage. Does this sound reasonable? Vrondi pick up on the fact that someone is a mage, rather than a Herald-Mage; if I remember rightly, there is some kind of recognition signal that one is supposed to give them if one is an "authorised" mage (which, in this case, means a Herald-Mage). Presumably Herald-Mages would be taught it during training. This, of course, doesn't explain why Elspeth didn't get consistently pestered, except if it picked up only on the use of those powers rather than their mere presence. I tend to think that the vrondi just got bored, with no mages to pester ... :) Mel. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 09:09:35 EST From: "Aphrael" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: RE: LHM(SPOILER) Message-ID: >Question: It appears that we've all interepreted "the testing" that is >referred to is a testing of who is Herald material and might be Chosen. >But maybe it is only a testing of Mage-gift? So that the Heralds could >make sure that Mage-Talented people got *good*, ethical training rather >that be taken in by a Blood-path mage?? See, this is what I always though Savil was doing when she first tested Van. Checking him for gifts, not checking to see if he'd get chosen. IIRC, he showed potential, but nothing Savil thought would develop into anything significant. Maybe she saw enough ForeSight that any vauge "feelings" or "hunches" Van had would be right 9 times out of 10, but nothing more. Had Van showed mage-gift, I don't think Savil would have had any qualms at all about trussing Van up and carrying him off to Haven for training, Withen or no. Welp, my 2 cents on the matter... Lyn Lyn Belzer * P.O. Box 234 St. Bonaventure, NY 14778 * 716/379-3034 ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* Tell me why then is the hand slow, and the dog bites. Well I don't know. But the sky will fall and heads will roll, and it's all that we can do to wait for the healing, for to carry on, for to stand when all is said and done in the shadow of the rising sun, longing, waiting for the healing... from _Wait for the Healing_, Amy Grant ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 09:27:55 -0400 (EDT) From: Gyrfalcon To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Darting people (was RE: LHM(SPOILER)) Message-ID: > Dang! Sorry this is a long post. Once I got started thinking, I > couldn't stop! (Where's those guys with the darts....OH NOOOOOO!) Thiiwpp... Thiiwpp, That should do it for a couple of days... --Gyrfalcon Who is one of the people who keeps trankin' Ian at the end of all his posts. :) =======================msowers-+AT+-menger.eecs.stevens-tech.edu=================== Magic still exists. We have only to reach out and touch it, it is a part of the very fabric of the world. When our belief of magic completely dies this universe shall die. Because that magic; Hope, Dreams, Love, Beauty, Wonder, Belief, and Discovery are what make us a people. They are all part of a great Art whose workings are still a mystery but whose applications can be seen every day. If we ever lose the Art mankind shall not last the day. Let the magic that is in us roam free in our work, play, in each other, and most of all in ourselves. Let it roam free or it will die. ============================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 16:00:35 +0200 From: Ina Faye-Lund To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: LHM(SPOILER) Message-ID: <199509211400.18421.gjalp.ifi.uio.no-+AT+-ifi.uio.no> [Mat Timmerman] > I think that I have an idea of what Teren meant about the MOC always > searching. If you look at the "normal" Caompanions, many of them > seem to sit around the Field, waiting for their Chosen to show up in > Haven. Like, for example, Kris' Companion Tantris. Kris wanted to > be a Herald, but it wasn't until he went to Court with his parents > that he was Chosen. IIRC, something like that happened to Dirk too. > So, I think the difference between MOC Choosing is that other C's > can go looking for a Chosen, or sit around and wait for him/her. > The MOC, OTOH, must Choose someone right away. Or, rather, that the MOC doesn't really Choose. The others Choose, but the MOC knows who he should "Choose", and so, he has to go out to find this person? Is that a possibility? > Remember that Shavri and Jisa being in Haven and Chosen as MOH is > the norm. Talia's was the more abnormal Choosing. Didn't someone > say that it had been a long time since the MOC left Haven for the > MOH? The thing about searching for a new MOH just means that the > MOC can't just sit around on his duff like other C's can, waiting > for the new MOH to show up. Don't remember, but wasn't that about Rolan having gone out to search three weeks ago, and people thinking that was a long time? -- IFL Elen síla lümenn' omentielvo ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 09:32:52 -0400 From: dstorrs-+AT+-crossover.com (David K. Storrs) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Question about the MOC Message-ID: <199509211332.JAA07090-+AT+-prague.crossover.com> Quoting from someone else quoting from the books. Caps mine: > If the Monarch's Own Herald is still living, that is the Herald >he [ the MOC ] Chooses; if not, he stays only long enough to be caparisoned > and goes out >to seek the next in line. IT IS USUALLY SOMEONE ALREADY A HERALD OR ABOUT TO > RECEIVE HIS WHITES THAT HE CHOOSES but that is not always the case.." > >and from Selenay's explanations to Talia upon her arrival: >There's one Companion that always [goes seeking; the MOC]. When that Herald >dies, the Companion leaves the Collegium to search the Kingdom for a >successor. In the past reigns that hasn't taken more than a day or two, and >quite often he Chooses someone WHO IS ALREADY A HERALD or nearly ready to be >made one. Ok, so here is my question -- the Companions and their Heralds tend to die very close together (if they die at all) so I doubt that there is a surplus of Heralds whose Companions have died. Therefore, when the MOC chooses someone who is already a Herald, what happens to that Herald's previous Companion/Companion bond? Dave ------------------------------ Date: 21 Sep 95 11:17:23 EDT From: Michele.H.Chang-+AT+-Dartmouth.EDU (Michele H. Chang) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Storm Warning (God question) Message-ID: <9787197-+AT+-cupid.Dartmouth.EDU> Did anyone notice in Storm Warning that the Karsites had a Goddess that disappeared and the song part of Oathbreaker mention is made of a Shin'a'in God who somehow disappeared also. I forget the Karsite envoy's name but he and the Shin'a'in Envoy (both Priests) went off to have a hush hush discussion the subject of which we are not told. Could it be about theology and the other half that supposedly disappeared? (Wild speculation) However both deities seem to participate actively in the lives of their people(s). Is it possible that the Star-eyed and the Sunlord are the deities that disappeared in the Karsite and the Shin'a'in religions? Sorry this a little incoherent. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 17:55:33 +0200 From: Ina Faye-Lund To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Wacky Monarch's Own Theory Message-ID: <199509211555.25844.gjalp.ifi.uio.no-+AT+-ifi.uio.no> On Thu, 21 Sep 1995 14:18:33 +0100, Melanie Dymond Harper said: [Melaine Dymond Harper] > Vrondi pick up on the fact that someone is a mage, rather than a > Herald-Mage; if I remember rightly, there is some kind of > recognition signal that one is supposed to give them if one is an > "authorised" mage (which, in this case, means a Herald-Mage). > Presumably Herald-Mages would be taught it during training. I don't know. In that case, the Herald-Mages would do nothing else. Where did you read that? I can't remember that part, but then, my memory isn't that good. > This, of course, doesn't explain why Elspeth didn't get consistently > pestered, except if it picked up only on the use of those powers > rather than their mere presence. I tend to think that the vrondi > just got bored, with no mages to pester ... :) Hardly. Remember that mage who tried to follow the merc company over? He said that he had the feeling someone was watching him all the time. I think it would be more likely that the vrondi knew how a Herald would look like, and then pester all those who didn't fit that description. In addition, there would be a signal, so that Herald-Mages on holiday or working undercover wouldn't have to be pestered all the time. -- IFL Elen síla lümenn' omentielvo ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 11:46:09 -0500 (CDT) From: "Cecile S. Ueltschey" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: LHM(SPOILER) Message-ID: On Wed, 20 Sep 1995, Mat Timmerman wrote: Lots of stuff snipped.... (won't Mel be proud?) > > If you look at the "normal" Caompanions, many of them seem > to sit around the Field, waiting for their Chosen to show up in Haven. > Like, for example, Kris' Companion Tantris. Kris wanted to be a Herald, > but it wasn't until he went to Court with his parents that he was Chosen. > IIRC, something like that happened to Dirk too. Also, Vanyel.... > So, I think the difference > between MOC Choosing is that other C's can go looking for a Chosen, or sit > around and wait for him/her. The MOC, OTOH, must Choose someone right away. Excellent point, and one I hadn't considered *consciously*, but I think that's what my interpretation was based on. The MOH is probably the most important Herald (if Vanyel will forgive us, yes all Heralds are important...) in that he/she provides an anchor for the Monarch. The very fact that Rolan was out searching for *two months* must have been distressing to the Circle..... Cecile [who hasn't learned how to make a sig yet, but now understands that courtesy requires some identification, so here it is: Cecile S. Ueltschey University of Arkansas Fayetteville, AR cueltsc-+AT+-comp.uark.edu] ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 11:54:54 -0500 (CDT) From: "Cecile S. Ueltschey" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Wacky Monarch's Own Theory (fwd) Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 20 Sep 1995 20:57:26 -0400 (EDT) From: Sunfalcon To: "Cecile S. Ueltschey" Subject: Re: Wacky Monarch's Own Theory On Wed, 20 Sep 1995, Cecile S. Ueltschey wrote: > I agree with Adrienne. There would have to be a bond with a Companion > for someone to be linked into the Web. I don't think that the vrondi > have anything to do with the Web; they just "watch" for non-Herald > mages/magic. > > Cecile > I thought that part of the "deal" Vanyel and Savil made with the Vrondi was that, in return for tapping on the shoulder of anyone using magic inside Valdemar's borders, they could feed off of the energy of the Haven heartstone (and thus the energy of the web). I distinctly remember Vanyel offering the massed elementals some sort of power line, then pulling it back until they agreed to play guards. I also recall something about the Vrondi notifying the nearest Herald mage if they found anyone who didn't have the right "password". Woulnd't they have to be tied into the web to find a native mage who wasn't using power right at that moment? I always pictured the whole Vrondi spell as a kind of network overlaying the Web; powered by it, but still only a peripheral aspect. Clear skies, The Wordsmith of Irymar ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 12:02:18 -0500 (CDT) From: "Cecile S. Ueltschey" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Another Companion Thought Message-ID: On Thu, 21 Sep 1995, Mat Timmerman wrote: > With all the talk about Herald/Companion reincarnation, I began to wonder > about something. When a Herald or Companion is reincarnated, what happens > to their previous bond? I mean, we've seen that it can last after death > with Van & Yfandes. Maybe the two are always reborn around the same > time, and that's what causes the bonds between the Companions? > > Thoughts on the matter, anyone, > Oooooo! Interesting proposition Mat. How about this one, maybe the Herald is reincarnated as one of her/his Companion's decendants?? Does anyone in the Collegium keep geneologies on the Companions? THAT would be interesting too! Oh boy a new thread! Cecile ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 13:15:43 -0400 From: KJohn20849-+AT+-aol.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Things Message-ID: <950921131542_25498801-+AT+-mail06.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 95-09-20 00:49:22 EDT, you write: >When Elspeth abdicated from the role of Heir, she mentioned something of >the fact that she was informed that the twins would be Chosen and that they >would likely be Monarch and MOH. As to the competition among the >Companions for being Chosen to the twins - the competition might be mainly >for the twin who will be Monarch - and at this point they may not know >which will be Monarch and which MOH. Near the beginning of the Winds books, before Elspeth goes out on her quest, it seems like the idea that one twin will be Monarch and the other MOH occurs to her while she is doing research on mage gifts. She thinks about it and decides that the idea "feels right". I don't think she was ever officially notified that things would actually work out that way. I don't have my book handy so I can't check, but that's the way I remember it :-) B*B Kathy ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Sep 95 12:26:00 cdt From: "Thomas, Daria" To: mercedes-lackey Subject: RE: Another Companion Thought Message-ID: <3061A059-+AT+-mailsrvr.bussvc.wisc.edu> Another thought along these lines--what happens to lifebonded Heralds? If they come back as Companions, wouldn't they have to kind of stick together? Assuming that they'd both reincarnate at about the same time, which I think is reasonable. Then they would each have another bond besides the lifebond. Would this be enough to keep them from willing themselves to death if one died? I mean, we never hear about one Companion being totally wrecked by another's death. Do lifebonded couples just not come back as Companions? Other thoughts? -Daria ---------- From: Mat Timmerman >With all the talk about Herald/Companion reincarnation, I began to wonder >about something. When a Herald or Companion is reincarnated, what happens >to their previous bond? I mean, we've seen that it can last after death >with Van & Yfandes. Maybe the two are always reborn around the same >time, and that's what causes the bonds between the Companions? > >Thoughts on the matter, anyone, > >Mat T. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 13:36:39 -0400 (EDT) From: Adrienne York To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Inherited gifts (spoiler for Winds books) Message-ID: On Thu, 21 Sep 1995, Aphrael wrote: (snip) > >I *think* there may be some mention somewhere of people inheriting gifts > >from their parents, but I can't come up with an obvious example :-). > > How about when Van mentions visiting his various children, checking > to see if they'd inherited any of his gifts? I believe Jisa had > empathy and mage-gift-potential, his child with Lissa's retired > guards was completely null, and of the half-Hawkbrother twins, the > boy (sorry, forget his name) had all the gifts, while the girl had > none. > > I think. I really hope I remembered everything OK. :) > > Later all-- > > Lyn (end snip) minor correction. The girl had all of her *mother's* gifts. I think Brightstar was the name of Moondance's and Starwind's adopted son. ;];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];] ;] Adrienne York-Minor ;] ;] "May your life be interesting" potent Shin'a'in curse ;] ;] ayork-+AT+-simons-rock.edu ;] ;];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];] ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 13:39:38 -0400 (EDT) From: Adrienne York To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: LHM(SPOILER) Message-ID: On Thu, 21 Sep 1995, Sarah Stock wrote: > > > and from Selenay's explanations to Talia upon her arrival " It's a rather > > odd thing, but for various reasons anyone who is of the proper material to > > be a Herald finds his or her way to the city, the Court, or the Collegium > > more often than not. Sometimes, though, the Companions have to go seeking > > their Heralds themselves. There's one Companion that always does this; tell > > me, in the tales you read, did you ever come across the title 'the Monarch's > > Own Herald' ?...(she goes on and describes a MO's duties) ...When that > > Herald dies, the Companion leaves the Collegium to search the Kingdom for a > > successor. In the past reigns that hasn't taken more than a day or two, and > > quite often he Chooses someone who is already a Herald or nearly ready to be > > made one. This time, though, it was different. When Herald Talamir died, > > his Companion was gone for nearly two months, something that hasn't happened > > in a very long time....Well, we think it has something to do with the > > current situation (she goes on & describes the deal with the Brat)." > > > > > I think I see a discrepancy here. How does the MOC leave the > Collegium to search for his herald, if he often chooses someone > already a herald, or in training? I don't have my books with me, so > I'm not sure how accurate the quote above is, but it reads as what I > remember. What, the herald he wants is automatically on holiday? > This doesn't make any sense. > What do you think, another bug :-) > Sarah, I think your quote was fundamentally correct. I think what Selenay meant was that the MOC always chooses immediately, or starts looking for someone immediately to choose. With other Companions, if they did survive the death of their Herald, noone would expect them to run right out and try to find another Herald. I don't think. :) ;];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];] ;] Adrienne York-Minor ;] ;] "May your life be interesting" potent Shin'a'in curse ;] ;] ayork-+AT+-simons-rock.edu ;] ;];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];] ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 13:44:49 -0400 (EDT) From: Adrienne York To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: LHM(SPOILER) Message-ID: On Thu, 21 Sep 1995, Anise K Strong wrote: > How can the MOC choose someone who is "already a Herald, or just about to > receive his whites" as mentioned in previous messages? Would the previous > bond between that Herald and his/her Companion be broken? Seems a rather > complicated situation. And in that case, how come Jisa had to sit around > waiting to be chosen until Shavri died? Theoretically, she could have had > a "temporary" Companion and completed her Herald training early. > -Anise I don't know how they choose someone who is already a Herald. But maybe in most cases they mean someone who they assume is likely to be Chosen, and soon, like the child of two Heralds or an obviously Gifted youngster who is also nice. The reason Jisa was waiting was because there was no pressure. She was getting the training she needed in Heraldry and in statecraft, so there was no need for her to be "chosen" just to get training. ;];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];] ;] Adrienne York-Minor ;] ;] "May your life be interesting" potent Shin'a'in curse ;] ;] ayork-+AT+-simons-rock.edu ;] ;];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];] ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 18:51:09 +0100 From: mel (Melanie Dymond Harper) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Wacky Monarch's Own Theory Message-ID: <9509211751.AA04937-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk> > > Vrondi pick up on the fact that someone is a mage, rather than a > > Herald-Mage; if I remember rightly, there is some kind of > > recognition signal that one is supposed to give them if one is an > > "authorised" mage (which, in this case, means a Herald-Mage). > > Presumably Herald-Mages would be taught it during training. > > > I don't know. In that case, the Herald-Mages would do nothing else. > Where did you read that? I can't remember that part, but then, my > memory isn't that good. > I think it is somewhere in the part of Magic's where they are setting up the Web; then when Van goes home, and the vrondi pester him, he gives them the signal and they leave him alone.... M. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 13:54:34 -0400 (EDT) From: Adrienne York To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: RE: LHM(SPOILER) Message-ID: On Wed, 20 Sep 1995, Cecile S. Ueltschey wrote: (giant chunk removed from very long post) > Question: It appears that we've all interepreted "the testing" that is > referred to is a testing of who is Herald material and might be Chosen. > But maybe it is only a testing of Mage-gift? So that the Heralds could > make sure that Mage-Talented people got *good*, ethical training rather > that be taken in by a Blood-path mage?? I never thought "the testing" done by Savil or Vanyel to be testing on an ethical level. Frankly, Savil was *bad* at reading people. And Vanyel had only a very touch and go sort of empathy. I always thought the testing was *just for Gifts*, whether potential, developing, or active. And didn't Savil say something about that when Andre asked her to check out Vanyel's brand new powers in Magic's Promise? ;];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];] ;] Adrienne York-Minor ;] ;] "May your life be interesting" potent Shin'a'in curse ;] ;] ayork-+AT+-simons-rock.edu ;] ;];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];] ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 14:03:18 -0400 (EDT) From: Adrienne York To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Vanyel Message-ID: On Thu, 21 Sep 1995, Anise K Strong wrote: > esOn Wed, 20 Sep 1995, Liz Peel wrote: > > > If that big mess with Tylendel hadn't happened, Van's gifts would > > probably have been opened anyway. Didn't they open a little before he > > died, when 'lendel summoned the demons or whatever? here's my > > scenario- Vanyel is in Haven, waiting for 'Lendel to come back from > > the border or something, 'Lendel gets in big trouble and accidentally > > draws on Vanyel's Mage-Gift. BOOM!!!! Vanyel's channels get blasted > > open and he gets chosen. > > > > -Liz > > > That implies that Vanyel wouldn't have been chosen if he didn't develop > Mage-Gift, which seems odd, given that even then a large majority of the > Heralds weren't Mages. I thought he was chosen more as an effort to save > and in some way partially comfort him. > -Anise > I thought Liz was implying that sooner or later Vanyel's Gifts would have gotten blasted open by 'Lendel, who was rather reckless and impulsive, at some point. You seem to think Van was chosen to give him emotional stability. I thought he was Chosen so somebody could get shields on him. When he was chosen, he was a danger to himself and the Palace, maybe even all of Haven. Frankly, I think if Tylendel hadn't done such a stupid thing as to try to sic wyrsa on the Leshara, Van would have developed a fairly strong Foresight gift, and maybe some Mindspeaking or Empathy, and been Chosen and lived life as a life-bonded vessel of power for Tylendel. ;];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];] ;] Adrienne York-Minor ;] ;] "May your life be interesting" potent Shin'a'in curse ;] ;] ayork-+AT+-simons-rock.edu ;] ;];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];] ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 14:13:21 -0400 (EDT) From: Adrienne York To: Mercedes Lackey Mailing List Subject: Lifebonds Message-ID: Somebody said, in one of the books, I think it might have been Talia in one of the Arrows books, that there was a theory that lifebonds occurred when there was someone with a strong Gift who was emotionally unstable. Evidence for this theory would be Talia&Dirk, and Keren&Sherill/Ylsa. My question, in the Vanyel&Stefen/Tylendel pairing, and the Firesong&An'desha pairing, who is the crazier partner? My other question is is this a valid theory. To any seekers of Freudian slips, yes, I have put who I consider to be the less stable of the lifebond in front. Oh, and if evidence on Firesong&Andesha is coming from Storm Rising, please don't be terribly specific. I still haven't read it. :( ;];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];] ;] Adrienne York-Minor ;] ;] "May your life be interesting" potent Shin'a'in curse ;] ;] ayork-+AT+-simons-rock.edu ;] ;];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];] ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 13:17:47 -0500 (CDT) From: "Cecile S. Ueltschey" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: LHM(SPOILER) Message-ID: On Wed, 20 Sep 1995, Helen M. Wilfehrt wrote: > > Quoting from Teren's Orientation speech..." ....now all Companions with a > single exception are born right here at the Collegium. That exception is > the Companion to the Monarch's Own Herald.....(he describes the MOC)... If > he is killed - and many have been - another appears from the Grove to take > his place. If the Monarch's Own Herald is still living, that is the Herald > he Chooses; if not, he stays only long enough to be caparisoned and goes out > to seek the next n line. It is usually someone already a Herald or about to > receive his Whites that he Chooses, but that is not always the case.." > > and from Selenay's explanations to Talia upon her arrival " It's a rather > odd thing, but for various reasons anyone who is of the proper material to > be a Herald finds his or her way to the city, the Court, or the Collegium > more often than not. Sometimes, though, the Companions have to go seeking > their Heralds themselves. Wow, Helen, that's a couple of monster quotes! But perfect. So, the MOC "searches" for *his* Herald (e.g. the MO) regardless if the person is the current MO, someone already at the Collegium, or someone out in the Kingdom at large. After all, a search only means the act of "seeking" and you could find something near-to-hand or far away, but you could still be considered to be "seeking". I'm glad you included the quote from Selenay too. I'd forgotten to point about potential-Heralds being drawn to Haven, so that they are there for the Companions to find. Perhaps the Companions "go seeking their Heralds themselves" when the person CANNOT make it to Haven. For example, wasn't Alberich imprisoned in Karse? And Tashir was about to be tried and excecuted for murder. Talia was Holderkin and undoubtedly would NEVER be taken to Haven for any reason, unless she ran away or was kidnapped (which in effect is what happened). Rolan got there "just in time", if she had be found by her family she would have been severely punished then married off in extreme haste and against her will. She, like Kris, had dreams of becoming a Herald and longed to got the Haven, but had no idea how *or means* to accomplish that. Now, does that fact that Rolan took TWO MONTHS to find the new MOH imply that there was great distance involved OR that the Companions don't know SPECIFICALLY "who" (as in person) "their" Herald is, and just look for a particular "mental signature"?? That would get around any intimation of "predestination", wouldn't it? Cecile ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 13:22:20 -0500 (CDT) From: "Cecile S. Ueltschey" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Elspeth and manipulation Message-ID: On Wed, 20 Sep 1995, Vivian Choh wrote: > > I've noticed that Elspeth has an almost violent reaction to being > manipulated. Do any of you think that she may be extra sensitive to > manipulative forces because of her childhood experiences, when she was > being influenced by Hulda to act horribly (and therefore almost lost the > chance at being chosen)? > > ooo..Sorry, bit of a run-on sentence there, eh? Yes, but that's okay. I think that you may be on to something there, Vivian. I noticed last night in SW that she again pretty much lost her temper when SOMETHING that suggested manipulation came up. (There, that's vague enough not to be a spoiler, isn't it?) [BTW, I *finished* SW last night! Oh are my eyes tired! I might try for SR at the library....8-)] Cecile ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 14:28:41 -0400 From: "Jennifer S. Broekman" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Storm Warning (God question) Message-ID: <199509211828.OAA02167-+AT+-sparky.phast.umass.edu> Michele H. Chang wrote: >seem to participate actively in the lives of their people(s). Is it possible >that the Star-eyed and the Sunlord are the deities that disappeared in the >Karsite and the Shin'a'in religions? Sorry this a little incoherent. Yes, it's possible. Anything's possible. But it should be noted that, although the Goddess is dominant in the Shin'a'in religion, the God isn't 'lost'. He shows up in songs and stories all the way up to modern times, even if he doesn't swear people to his service and perform miracles. He could be lost, as in not paying much attention to the Shin'a'in, or he could just be *much* more subtle than his consort. -jenneke I *am* family. How could I not have family values? Only Boys Accepting Feminism Get Kissed Meaningfully -- Geoff Marcy The only unnatural sexual act is that which you cannot perform. -Alfred Kinsey broekman-+AT+-sparky.phast.umass.edu | http://www-astro.phast.umass.edu/gs/jenn.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 14:31:48 EST From: "Aphrael" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Storm Warning (God question) Message-ID: >Did anyone notice in Storm Warning that the Karsites had a Goddess that >disappeared and the song part of Oathbreaker mention is made of a Shin'a'in God >who somehow disappeared also. Actually, this thread kind of started a couple of weeks ago, then got swallowed up by all the Yfandes hub-bub... >I forget the Karsite envoy's name but he and the Shin'a'in Envoy (both Priests) went off to have a hush hush discussion the >subject of which we are not told. But this was something I didn't think about! Maybe that *is* where Ulrich and Querna wander in from when we hear about Karal's first council meeting. Hmmmm....very, very good point, Michele.... Lyn Lyn Belzer * P.O. Box 234 St. Bonaventure, NY 14778 * 716/379-3034 ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* I feel ready for a commitment. Thank God it requires two signitures in this state. -slightly modified line from _Dave's World_, 9/20/95 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 13:35:22 -0500 (CDT) From: "Cecile S. Ueltschey" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Lots of things. Message-ID: (one section at end of post could be considered a Storm Warning spoiler) On Wed, 20 Sep 1995, David K. Storrs wrote: > Hello from the newbie... :> > > [Summary of several snipped bits from Adrienne York's mail:] > > > >> > > [ Validemar is probably the most sophisticated country in... > recognizing the various gods & goddesses as ASPECTS of the same single pair, > > >> > [I disagree. Valdemar does not consider the various gods/godesses as > >> > aspects. The rule is that "there is no one true way". ] > >> > >> [Since I'm at work, I don't have an exact quote, but I think its in > >> Arrow's Fall, when Talia and Kris are going on her training circuit. > >> He says to the effect "They worship the Lady as Astera and the (Lord?) as > Kernos" which implied to me that - at least in Valdemar - there is a central > >> God/Goddess pair called by different names by Valdemarans. > > > [lots of other Valdemaran religions are non-dualistic. I really > don't think they believe the only structure of beliefs is the Sacred Couple. ] Valdemaran or Velgarthian? The only examples of Valdemaran religions that we have are the Sacred Couple (by whatever names), the Vkandis followers (later called schismatic, by the Karsites in SW), and Mero's people of the One. I asked in another reply to one of these, that if the Sacred Couple religion was not widespread in Valdemar, why point out the specific names as if they are different from what people in Haven would call them? > As I recall from one of the Vows and Honor books...Oathbreakers, I > believe...the Star-Eyed appeared to Tarma at one point and made some comment > to either Keth or the herald they were with...Prince Whatshisname...saying > "I am another aspect of your Lady Windborn" > > [yeesh...it's been too long since I read these...all the details > have turned to memory-mush] > > Dave It's Kethry that says of the Star-Eyed that she seems to be another aspect of Lady Windborn. But Kethry is from Jkatha (that's the country, yes the city is Mornedelth) and the Star-Eyed is Shin'a'in. These are not Valdemaran religions. I just had a thought that ties into the "Talia in Karse" thread as well. Does anyone know what the religion of the Holderkin is/was? Since they left/were expelled from Karse, I take it that its NOT Vkandis-worship?? Or is it a "heretical" version of that? Perhaps that has something to do with Talia being made a Sun-Priest, since she was Holderkin-bred? Cecile ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 14:42:36 -0400 From: "Jennifer S. Broekman" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Wacky Monarch's Own Theory Message-ID: <199509211842.OAA02176-+AT+-sparky.phast.umass.edu> Melanie Dymond Harper wrote: >Vrondi pick up on the fact that someone is a mage, rather than a >Herald-Mage; if I remember rightly, there is some kind of recognition >signal that one is supposed to give them if one is an "authorised" >mage (which, in this case, means a Herald-Mage). Presumably >Herald-Mages would be taught it during training. >This, of course, doesn't explain why Elspeth didn't get consistently >pestered, except if it picked up only on the use of those powers >rather than their mere presence. I tend to think that the vrondi just >got bored, with no mages to pester ... :) The vrondi pick up on the use of mage energy, not the mere possession of the MageGift. This is how Hulda managed to live in Valdemar undetected and why Van wasn't tapped until he went into the forest and linked to the forest's energy reserve. Because Elspeth never touched MageEnergy within Valdemar until the protections came down, she was never bothered. Quenten and the other Skybolts mages *were* bothered, you'll remember. My guess is that they used some small spell, say, a jesto-vath, which attracted a vrondi or two, and then they tried to catch who was looking at them with more spells, which attracted more vrondi, etc. As for why Kethry wasn't bothered when she was using mage energy, Van explains that the vrondi kept track of the border by following Heralds on circuit, and my guess is that they only really paid attention to where the Herald was when he or she used the Truth Spell. So, since Kethry was at the very southern border, near the Crown Prince's hunting lodge, my guess is that the Truth Spell had not yet ever been cast there when Kethry was around. Speaking of Truth Spell, after the Web is expanded and the vrondi linked in, it's easy to understand how any Herald could use the Web to call a vrondi, but Vanyel tells Lores that any Herald can use it *before* the Web is expanded (_Magic's Promise_). Also, Vanyel remarks that very few mages outside Valdemar would racognize a vrondi as anything but the obvious generality of being an air elemental. Speculations? Are the vrondi another part of the gods' answer to Baron Valdemar's prayers? One that isn't as flashily obvious or generally useful as the Companions, but still a part of the puzzle. If so, what other subtle gifts did the gods give? -jenneke I *am* family. How could I not have family values? Only Boys Accepting Feminism Get Kissed Meaningfully -- Geoff Marcy The only unnatural sexual act is that which you cannot perform. -Alfred Kinsey broekman-+AT+-sparky.phast.umass.edu | http://www-astro.phast.umass.edu/gs/jenn.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 14:02:09 -0500 (CDT) From: "Cecile S. Ueltschey" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: RE: LHM(SPOILER) Message-ID: On Thu, 21 Sep 1995, Jennifer S. Broekman wrote: > Cecile S. Ueltschey wrote: > > >Question: It appears that we've all interepreted "the testing" that is > >referred to is a testing of who is Herald material and might be Chosen. > >But maybe it is only a testing of Mage-gift? So that the Heralds could > >make sure that Mage-Talented people got *good*, ethical training rather > >that be taken in by a Blood-path mage?? > > I certainly didn't think Savil was testing Treesa and Withen's kids > for Heraldic potential, just Gifts. She makes some remark about > having hoped that at least one of them would have inherited her Gifts > and being disappointed that *none* of their many children had any > Gifts worth bothering with. > I didn't interpret Savil's testing in that way either, jenneke, that's what I was trying to point out. I was just mentioning that because a number of posts seemed to indicate that she had deemed him NOT to be Heraldic material as a result of the testing but maybe I missed their points (humble, humble). Cecile ------------------------------ End of MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 151 *********************************