MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 152 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re: Question about the MOC by "Cecile S. Ueltschey" 2) Re: Wacky Monarch's Own Theory by Anne Cross 3) Vrondi/Web (was: RE: Wacky Monarch's Own Theory) by Mat Timmerman 4) Re: Inherited gifts (spoiler for Winds books) by Mat Timmerman 5) SERRAted Edge (was RE: I'm back!) by Mat Timmerman 6) RE: Elspeth and manipulation by "Brian Cowan" 7) Re: Grove-Born tangent by Mat Timmerman 8) Re: Wacky Monarch's Own Theory by h-wilfehrt-+AT+-nwu.edu (Helen M. Wilfehrt) 9) A side note by h-wilfehrt-+AT+-nwu.edu (Helen M. Wilfehrt) 10) Re: Yfandes (WAS)Re: SR tied into the LHM thread... by PTJ-+AT+-badger.demon.co.uk (Philip Johnson) 11) Bad News for Diana Tregarde fans by marina-+AT+-singnet.com.sg (Marina S Y Chong) 12) Re: Lifebonds by "Jennifer S. Broekman" 13) RE: I'm back! by dstorrs-+AT+-crossover.com (David K. Storrs) 14) re: Grove-Born tangent by dstorrs-+AT+-crossover.com (David K. Storrs) 15) RE: Another Companion Thought by "Jennifer S. Broekman" 16) Re: Wacky Monarch's Own Theory by EDooley489-+AT+-aol.com 17) Re: Lots of things. by "Jennifer S. Broekman" 18) Re: Vanyel by "Jennifer S. Broekman" 19) Re: Lifebonds by "Sarah Stock" 20) Re: Yfandes (WAS)Re: SR tied into the LHM thread... by "Jennifer S. Broekman" 21) Re: Lots of things. by steph-+AT+-escher.mbi.ucla.edu (Stephanie Wukovitz) 22) Deities & Free will. Was: Re: Yfandes (WAS)Re: SR tied into the LHM thread... by mealink-+AT+-syd.au.swissbank.com (Kerry Mealing) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 14:09:49 -0500 (CDT) From: "Cecile S. Ueltschey" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Question about the MOC Message-ID: On Thu, 21 Sep 1995, David K. Storrs wrote: > Quoting from someone else quoting from the books. Caps mine: > > > If the Monarch's Own Herald is still living, that is the Herald > >he [ the MOC ] Chooses; if not, he stays only long enough to be caparisoned > > and goes out > >to seek the next in line. IT IS USUALLY SOMEONE ALREADY A HERALD OR ABOUT TO > > RECEIVE HIS WHITES THAT HE CHOOSES but that is not always the case.." > > Ok, so here is my question -- the Companions and their Heralds tend to > die very close together (if they die at all) so I doubt that there is a > surplus of Heralds whose Companions have died. Therefore, when the MOC > chooses someone who is already a Herald, what happens to that Herald's > previous Companion/Companion bond? > It has been suggested in previous threads/comments that if the MO-presumptive is already a Herald their link with their Companion is a light one, not strong in the way we have seen Talia and Rolan, Elspeth and Gwena, etc. Almost as if it is a temporary Choosing, to get them into training and some experience. Does that help? Cecile ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 15:15:52 -0400 (EDT) From: Anne Cross To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Wacky Monarch's Own Theory Message-ID: > This, of course, doesn't explain why Elspeth didn't get consistently pestered, > except if it picked up only on the use of those powers rather than their mere > presence. I tend to think that the vrondi just got bored, with no mages to > pester ... :) Actually, it's explained. Elspeth wasn't -using- her magic when she wasn't a Herald, and when she was, she had a Companion. The Companion's are the response signal, but Vanyel was riding a horse when the Vrondi tapped his shoulder. Yfandes was back at the Keep. So there is a countersignal, or there is the Companion, or you can just not use magic. Remember, Hulda didn't use magic when she was in Valdemar, so that the Vrondi wouldn't catch her. But Quenten and Kethry did and both of them got very uncomfortable. Kethry mentions it later. Anne Cross juniper-+AT+-fledge.watson.com http://fledge.watson.com/~juniper ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 15:27:43 -0400 (EDT) From: Mat Timmerman To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Vrondi/Web (was: RE: Wacky Monarch's Own Theory) Message-ID: <01HVJJN6RHFW8ZESR9-+AT+-vaxc.hofstra.edu> From: "David K. Storrs" > > I don't think that the vrondi > >have anything to do with the Web; they just "watch" for non-Herald > >mages/magic. > > > >Cecile > On this subject, I have a question -- shortly after linking the > Vrondi into the Web, Vanyel goes home for some R&R. While there, he tried > casting a spell (shortly before being attacked by the guy who later turned > out to have the leech blade). Anyway, in the process of casting this spell, > he is startled by a Vrondi "tapping him on the shoulder." > This is the only reference to this in any of the books, and Vanyel > was startled that it happened. But, according to my understanding of how the > Web Mk II was established, the Vrondi should immediately have realized that > Van was a Herald and not tapped him. What's the deal? > > Dave > IIRC, somewhere, Vanyel says that he never finished the Vrondi spell. He *wanted* to make them inform Herald-mages of other mages, but he never got to do that part. He only had time to make them detect and bug _every_ mage in Valdemar. The part about recognition of Herald-mages was never competed. Mat T. -------------------------------- | Mat Timmerman | | accmjt-+AT+-hofstra.edu | | mtimmerman1-+AT+-hofstra.edu | -------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 15:32:50 -0400 (EDT) From: Mat Timmerman To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Inherited gifts (spoiler for Winds books) Message-ID: <01HVJJSW8Z8I8ZESR9-+AT+-vaxc.hofstra.edu> From: "Helen M. Wilfehrt" lots snipped... > Plus it was also mentioned that Nyara's children would carry the Mage Gift > as part of their genetic legacy from Falconsbane. Does anyone else remember that Nyara was supposed to be sterile? In either Winds 1 or 2, Falconsbane mentions being annoyed that Nyara turned out to be sterile. Then, in WoChange, Wintermoon (I think) tells Skif that ChangeChildren are either sterile or their kids are monsters. Now, was this just forgotten, or did the combination of Need and the Star-Eyed fix this? Mat T. -------------------------------- | Mat Timmerman | | accmjt-+AT+-hofstra.edu | | mtimmerman1-+AT+-hofstra.edu | -------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 15:42:50 -0400 (EDT) From: Mat Timmerman To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: SERRAted Edge (was RE: I'm back!) Message-ID: <01HVJK20OP2U8ZESR9-+AT+-vaxc.hofstra.edu> From: Rosario Holsen-Baker > > > >Colette (nimune oceanwalker) wrote: > > > > > >***************snippety*****snip********snip*****major snips ************ > > >now, how about those elves?! > > > > > >I'm answering your comment about elves because I want to know if anyone > > >has the same reaction to the _Serrated_Edge (I think I did that right?) > > >series, that I do..... which is: I get extremely depressed after reading > > >them. I don't see how Misty could write about such horrid things > > >happening to children as much as she does. I think it's great that she > > >champions children and writes about abuses, but I can't bring myself to > > >read the books more than once. Don't get me wrong --I like the books, but > > >I personally can not handle them, --They make me feel helpless in away.... > > > > > > > True, she writes about horrible abuses to children, but notice that > > the story always ends up positively...think of it as catharsis. > > > > BTW -- there was one of the Serrated Edge books that I'm sure I read, > > but I can't remember it, and it's really bothering me. There were two books > > with Joe, the son of the paramilitary cultist/preacher guy, in them. One > > was Burning Chrome, where we meet Tannim's 'evil twin' (I liked the light > > touches of humor in that one... "Oh my god, an 'evil twin' epsidoe," though > > Tannim. "If this were the late movie, I'd turn it off." [[Not an exact > > quote, since I'm at work, but close]]. > > Anyway, the OTHER book is the one that I'm trying to remember...it > > features a young girl, in the game of the preacher, and that's about all I > > remember. Can anyone help me out? > > > > Dave > It was the...oh, crap, blanking out..._Wheels of Fire_, that's > it. It also had this elemental fire creature called (appropriatly enough) > the Salamander that stirred up violent emotions in people. > Hey, here's a question for you. Joe had to have been made to see > at least a few of the meetings. How come the Salamander didn't decide he > was a juicy target and try to exploit the boy's powers or something? > --Jaguar-- Of the SERRAted Edge books, there were: _Born to Run_ : Meet Tannim, problem with Unseleigh, teen hookers. _Wheels of Fire_ : Oaklahoma, Alinor, evil cult, Joe, Salamander _When the Bough Breaks_ : Elfhame Outremer, split personality high-psi girl _Chrome Circle_ : Tannim, Shar, Chinthliss, Oaklahoma, Joe(again), TMBG :) On why the Salmander ignored Joe: I think that Joe's psi abilities weren't the right kind for the Salamander to use. He needed a medium, not a telepath. Now, if this had been a Di book, it would have went straight for Mark, him being a strong Medium. Mat T. -------------------------------- | Mat Timmerman | | accmjt-+AT+-hofstra.edu | | mtimmerman1-+AT+-hofstra.edu | -------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Sep 95 19:33:15 UT From: "Brian Cowan" To: "mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk"-+AT+-msn.com Subject: RE: Elspeth and manipulation Message-ID: Actually, this could explain what someone termed "the return of 'The Brat.'" We all have our "hot buttons," why couldn't this be one of Elspeth's? Brian ---------- From: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk on behalf of Vivian Choh Sent: Wednesday, September 20, 1995 9:09 AM To: Brian Cowan Subject: Elspeth and manipulation I've noticed that Elspeth has an almost violent reaction to being manipulated. Do any of you think that she may be extra sensitive to manipulative forces because of her childhood experiences, when she was being influenced by Hulda to act horribly (and therefore almost lost the chance at being chosen)? ooo..Sorry, bit of a run-on sentence there, eh? Vivian Choh bi189-+AT+-torfree.net v.choh-+AT+-utoronto.ca "I am all that I claim to be. I simply have not claimed all that I am." - M. Lackey, "Oathbreakers" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 15:55:03 -0400 (EDT) From: Mat Timmerman To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Grove-Born tangent Message-ID: <01HVJKGKTNHO8ZESR9-+AT+-vaxc.hofstra.edu> From: Hollie Virgin > >From: Elise M Packee > >okay, going to stick my nose in on this. _Arrows Fall_ Dirk and Elspeth > >are having a conversation about Companions and gifts on the way to the > >border of Hardorn. > > > > I seem to recall that there was a brief tangent on Grove-Born > >companions. Also, that tangent I believe mentioned Yfandes somehow. > >My books are in storage in Oregon, And I am in Montana. So if someone > >could look up that passage, maybe that will help in the discussion > >whether grove-born or not... > > > > I noticed this when I was rereading the Arrows series too..._Arrow's Fall,_ > p. 213 > > "Don't they _ever_ interfere?" she (Elspeth) asked, finally. > "Not in living memory. In some of the old chronicles, though...Some > Companions, very rarely, have intervened. But only when the situation was > hopeless, and only when there was no other way out of it except by their > aid. They were always Grove-born, though..." (Dirk) > > Certainly _sounds_ like he's referring to Yfandes. But I agree that she's > not Grove-born, mostly because Van sees her as a woman. Question - does > Gwena glow brightly to Elspeth's MageSight, like she did to...ah...I forget > what mage it was...Quenten, maybe? And if not, does she mask herself, or > does Elspeth just not see it, because she's not expecting it? > I don't see this as refering to Yfandes. She didn't really intervene in way that Dirk meant. What she did was protect her Chosen (after the gang- rape) by Mindspeaking to Stef, and stay with and aid her Chosen (the Final Strike). The intervention conversation was really just a setup for the scene where Rolan and the Companions help to Fetch Talia. I think that that's a little different. It may be that Quenten can see Gwena shining b/c he knows what a Guardian Spirit is. It's always seemed to me that the Valdemaran mages are pretty weak on other-planar creatures, except the Vrondi, which someone mentions were discovered by a contemporary of Vanyel's (was it Savil? It's been a long time since I've read MPromise - I really need to buy it. Well, if the Heralds _could_ see the shine, I think that we'd have heard it mentioned. It's likely that the C's would hide that though. Mat T. -------------------------------- | Mat Timmerman | | accmjt-+AT+-hofstra.edu | | mtimmerman1-+AT+-hofstra.edu | -------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 15:08:08 -0500 From: h-wilfehrt-+AT+-nwu.edu (Helen M. Wilfehrt) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Wacky Monarch's Own Theory Message-ID: <199509212008.AA082174088-+AT+-casbah.acns.nwu.edu> >> I don't think that the vrondi >>have anything to do with the Web; they just "watch" for non-Herald >>mages/magic. >> >>Cecile > > > On this subject, I have a question -- shortly after linking the >Vrondi into the Web, Vanyel goes home for some R&R. While there, he tried >casting a spell (shortly before being attacked by the guy who later turned >out to have the leech blade). Anyway, in the process of casting this spell, >he is startled by a Vrondi "tapping him on the shoulder." > This is the only reference to this in any of the books, and Vanyel >was startled that it happened. But, according to my understanding of how the >Web Mk II was established, the Vrondi should immediately have realized that >Van was a Herald and not tapped him. What's the deal? > > Dave I thought that the idea of linking the Vrondi was that they would check out whoever was casting any sort of Magic and then if they weren't Herald Mages to keep watching that individual until that person stopped but if that person was a Herald, the Vrondi would just let them be. Maybe the Vrondi "tapping him on the shoulder" was either this initial checking - which doesn't make sense since Vanyel was using a Gift and not Magic to talk to that guy in Haven - or else the Vrondi recognized Vanyel as it was just after setting the spell and was saying hello. :-) Vrondi were actually mentioned later on in one of the Winds books when Elspeth realized that the Truth Spell was actually calling upon the Vrondi as Magic elementals. As to the role of Vrondi and the Web, as I previously mentioned, I thought that the Vrondi were linked into the Web in order to be able to determine if a Mage was a Herald-Mage, but it just occurred to me that it's likely that their linkage to the Web also allowed the Heralds to call upon them in casting the Truth Spell. As a result the Heralds could also cast this Magic spell without having a Mage Gift themselves. I believe that the Vrondi's linkage to the Web also gave them access to the Node Energy which Vanyel tempted them with in the original casting in exchange for their "vigilance" in helping to protect Valdemar from nasty minded Mages. Hmmm...this also brings up some consideration of the Truth Spell in itself. All Heralds could call upon the first stage - ie. knowing whether or not someone spoke the truth; while only Heralds with Communication type gifts, in Ylsa's categorization, could call upon the second stage - forcing someone to speak the truth. I would have thought that it would have been more likely that those Heralds with Mage Gifts either in potential or untrained would have been more able in bringing on the 2nd stage than those without a Mage Gift. But then Talia, without a Mage Gift, was able to bring on the 2nd stage.....oh well. Another inconsistency is that they showed up when Talia was having trouble with her Gift, not Magic, while she and Kris were in Sorrows and was indirectly threatening Kris's safety. That sense of being watched agrees with the idea that it was the Vrondi but her sense that she was also being threatened agrees more with Yfandes's being ready to thwack her as was mentioned when the spirits of Tylendel and Vanyel spoke with Elspeth et al. Happy reading- Helen ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 15:17:00 -0500 From: h-wilfehrt-+AT+-nwu.edu (Helen M. Wilfehrt) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: A side note Message-ID: <199509212017.AA107644619-+AT+-casbah.acns.nwu.edu> Awhile back, while discussing other favorite authors, a couple of people mentioned Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time series. I just wanted to add my vote for these books. I just finished reading Book 5 in about as many weeks. I find that I just can't put them down if I start reading, so I try to reserve my reading them until the weekend. But they're great reading - I really enjoyed their plot design, the writing style, the characterizations, etc..... The only real problem is that my eyes have been complaining about reading such huge volumes - in paperback, around 950-1000 pages per volume. But all I can say is keep them coming.... Helen ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 20:13:33 GMT From: PTJ-+AT+-badger.demon.co.uk (Philip Johnson) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Yfandes (WAS)Re: SR tied into the LHM thread... Message-ID: <34338-+AT+-badger.demon.co.uk> In message <9509191619.AA03193-+AT+-baker> mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk writes: > ok. (excuse the punctuation, i write all in lower case letters out of > habit. if it gets too annoying, let me know please.) Since you ask, I *do* find this extremely annoying, especially in long pieces. The use of capital and lower case letters evolved, not as a matter of fancy aesthetics, but because they make the text _easier_to_read_. If writing ALL IN CAPS IS SHOUTING the writing all in lower case is the equivalent of muttering. Both are discourteous and both impede communication. At least you have the courtesy to separate paragraphs. Many non-caps-users do not: the equivalent of muttering with you hand over your mouth I would not have sent this, but you *did ask. I'm not getting at you paarticularly. I contemplated sending this as personal e-mail, but decided to post to the group in the faint hope of converting others with the same habit. Normally I find this no more than rather irritating since I refuse to read more than a short paragraph of such text. If the post is longer, I skip the rest unless the first couple of sentences convince me that the writer has something of first importance to say. So far that hasn't happened. Moral: if you want people to hear you, speak clearly; if you want people to read you, write (or type) legibly. Philip -- Philip Johnson 'Never do for yourself what you can con an expert into doing for you' Naismith: 'On War' 'A rational government wouldn't allow him possession of a pocket-knife, let alone a space fleet.' Cordelia, Countess Vorkosigan: 'On Naismith' ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 05:35:58 -0800 From: marina-+AT+-singnet.com.sg (Marina S Y Chong) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Bad News for Diana Tregarde fans Message-ID: <199509212141.FAA10974-+AT+-merlion.singnet.com.sg> Most of you know that the planned Diana Tregarde books, _Arcanum 102_ and _Triangle Park_ were put on hold some time ago. According to the latest Queens's Own newsletter, it is unlikely that they will ever be published. :( The reason is that they have not done very well, and Tor is unwilling to make the necessary investment in them. IMO part of the problem is that the books tend to find themselves in the Horror sections of bookshops instead of Fantasy, and ML is not known as a writer of horror tales. For this reason (and there are others reasons I'm sure) I had a devil of a time obtaining my own copies of the three books! Anyway, it has been suggested that a book-buying campaign be started, but I'm not sure that it will help much. regards -- Marina Chong KoX,SP4 marina-+AT+-singnet.com.sg marina-+AT+-amazing.amazing.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Cults+Conspiracies+Scams+Crimes+Clams! What do these add up to? Read alt.religion.scientology and find out! Save the Rev! Support the Dennis Erlich Defense Fund David Dennis' WWW page> http://www.amazing.com/scientology/ Ron Newman's WWW page> http://www.cybercom.net/~rnewman/home.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 17:55:13 -0400 From: "Jennifer S. Broekman" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Lifebonds Message-ID: <199509212155.RAA02259-+AT+-sparky.phast.umass.edu> Adrienne York wrote: >Somebody said, in one of the books, I think it might have been Talia in >one of the Arrows books, that there was a theory that lifebonds occurred >when there was someone with a strong Gift who was emotionally unstable. I think this is actually said in _Winds of Fury_, by Stefen's ghost. >Evidence for this theory would be Talia&Dirk, and Keren&Sherill/Ylsa. My >question, in the Vanyel&Stefen/Tylendel pairing, and the >Firesong&An'desha pairing, who is the crazier partner? Firesong and An'desha are not actually a lifebonded pair. Other pairs for your consideration: Selenay/Daren, Kerowyn/Eldan, Kethry/Jadrek, Elspeth the Peacemaker/Bard whatshisname :-), Shavri/Randale, Jisa/Treven, Donni/Mardic, Starwind/Moondance... (In all possible cases, I've put the woman first, not necessarily the one I consider less stable...) >My other question is is this a valid theory. As valid as any other we've heard, certainly... -jenneke I *am* family. How could I not have family values? Only Boys Accepting Feminism Get Kissed Meaningfully -- Geoff Marcy The only unnatural sexual act is that which you cannot perform. -Alfred Kinsey broekman-+AT+-sparky.phast.umass.edu | http://www-astro.phast.umass.edu/gs/jenn.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 17:10:13 -0400 From: dstorrs-+AT+-crossover.com (David K. Storrs) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: RE: I'm back! Message-ID: <199509212110.RAA07814-+AT+-prague.crossover.com> >On Wed, 20 Sep 1995, David K. Storrs wrote: >> Anyway, the OTHER book is the one that I'm trying to remember...it >> features a young girl, in the cult of the preacher, and that's about all I >> remember. Can anyone help me out? >> >> Dave > It was the...oh, crap, blanking out..._Wheels of Fire_, that's >it. It also had this elemental fire creature called (appropriatly enough) >the Salamander that stirred up violent emotions in people. Great, thanks! BTW -- any news on further output in the "Serrated Edge" series? (I.e., after _Burning Chrome_)? > Hey, here's a question for you. Joe had to have been made to see >at least a few of the meetings. How come the Salamander didn't decide he >was a juicy target and try to exploit the boy's powers or something? Not a clue. :> Dave ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 17:23:49 -0400 From: dstorrs-+AT+-crossover.com (David K. Storrs) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: re: Grove-Born tangent Message-ID: <199509212123.RAA07831-+AT+-prague.crossover.com> >Question - does >Gwena glow brightly to Elspeth's MageSight, like she did to...ah...I forget >what mage it was...Quenten, maybe? And if not, does she mask herself, or >does Elspeth just not see it, because she's not expecting it? It was Quentin, and I don't believe Gwena glows to Elspeth, or it would have been discovered much sooner that Elspeth had a major Mage-Gift. Also, I get the feeling that the Companions are _normally_ "cloaked" to Mage-Sight and only "flare" when they feel like it. E.g: 1) When Vanyel goes undercover in (Lineas?) as a minstrel, he does not bring Yfandes, but it is because she is too white and beautiful...not because he is afraid of a mage spotting her. And there was a mage there for one of his visits, because I remember a line about "[Vanyel set up a tap into a power line]...unless was checking the lines inch by inch, it should go unnoticed...." 2) When Elspeth et al. arrived on Quentin's doorstep, the Companions very definitely "flared" for Quentin -- I remember some kind of note about how they made eye-contact with Quentin after he came down to meet them and they were "looking" normal again, and he could almost feel them laughing. This implies that they have the ability to "decloak" for only one person while remaining "cloaked" for everyone else around them. Dave ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 18:54:26 -0400 From: "Jennifer S. Broekman" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: RE: Another Companion Thought Message-ID: <199509212254.SAA02319-+AT+-sparky.phast.umass.edu> Thomas, Daria wrote: >Another thought along these lines--what happens to lifebonded Heralds? If >they come back as Companions, wouldn't they have to kind of stick together? >From: Mat Timmerman >>With all the talk about Herald/Companion reincarnation, I began to wonder >>about something. When a Herald or Companion is reincarnated, what happens >>to their previous bond? I mean, we've seen that it can last after death >>with Van & Yfandes. Maybe the two are always reborn around the same >>time, and that's what causes the bonds between the Companions? Why should such bonds persist through reincarnation in the usual case? Tylendel/Stefen is an extremely *un*usual case, IMO, since Tylendel not only caused the violent opening of Van's Gifts, but also failed as a Herald, in several ways. The average Herald or lifebonded pair doesn't have any such trauma to tie him/her to another soul through rebirth. -jenneke I *am* family. How could I not have family values? Only Boys Accepting Feminism Get Kissed Meaningfully -- Geoff Marcy The only unnatural sexual act is that which you cannot perform. -Alfred Kinsey broekman-+AT+-sparky.phast.umass.edu | http://www-astro.phast.umass.edu/gs/jenn.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 21:20:37 -0400 From: EDooley489-+AT+-aol.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Wacky Monarch's Own Theory Message-ID: <950921212037_25904004-+AT+-mail02.mail.aol.com> This is in response to the vrondi discussion by Mel. My understanding of the Web and the vrondi was that they were supposed to "tap" people who were hostile to Valdemar. I.E. had some evil or bad thoughts going through their heads with the idea to use magic. The web was supposed to notify the herald mages when someone was in the border doing this. When all the herald mages were gone then the web sort of fell into disuse. Which caused the simple vrondi to start bothering anyone with magic abilities that tried to use them within the borders of Valdemar. They are only basic creatures without a lot of intelligence to tell the difference between friends and foes after several hundred years of no guidance. It has been a few months since I last reread the Last Herald Mage so I probably don't have all the right facts but that seems to me to be the basics behind it all. Eric ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 23:00:25 -0400 From: "Jennifer S. Broekman" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Lots of things. Message-ID: <199509220300.XAA02560-+AT+-sparky.phast.umass.edu> Cecile S. Ueltschey wrote: >(one section at end of post could be considered a Storm Warning spoiler) >Valdemaran or Velgarthian? The only examples of Valdemaran religions >that we have are the Sacred Couple (by whatever names), the Vkandis >followers (later called schismatic, by the Karsites in SW), and Mero's >people of the One. However, absence of proof (of the existence of other forms within Valdemar) is not proof of absence (of other forms within Valdemar). Since other forms exist outside of Valdemar, and we know that Valdemar is at least as much, if not more, of a melting pot than Nome, San Francisco, and Los Angeles dumped in a pot and stirred vigorously, why *shouldn't* other forms exist within Valdemar? > I asked in another reply to one of these, that if the >Sacred Couple religion was not widespread in Valdemar, why point out the >specific names as if they are different from what people in Haven would >call them? So that Talia would know for certain what was meant if someone said, "Thank Astera"? So that Talia could refer to the deities in the terms that the locals would find most comfortable and least distressing? Remember that the priests of most of the various religions try to tell their followers that their is the only True God/Goddess. It's just not politic to tell a Christian that Allah will make sure that everything turns out right, RL, and I don't imagine that it would be any more advisable to tell a follower of Kernos and Astera that the situation was in 's hands. It doesn't matter if the structure is the same or different from the one Talia was used to, she had to get the local structure right, including the names. "The Lady" and "the God" are convenient labels for use in a Religions class, in Valdemar or on Earth, regardless of the most common religious structure. It's just a more general version of telling someone that Roman Catholics are Christians who believe in transubstantiation. It doesn't mean that Christianity is the dominant religion in the country, just that the person being addressed has had some training in comparative religions and will pick up on a set of characteristics shared by most Christians. You can't infer from the use of the word "Christian" alone whether the country is primarily Christian, Jewish, Wiccan, animist, etc. Similarly, you can't infer from the fact that Kris used the Sacred Couple to explain a religion to an *educated* Talia that the majority of Valdemar worships the Sacred Couple. If he'd picked some random, scruffy kid off the streets and used the same phrasing, maybe, but not when he's addressing someone who's taken an in-depths Religions class... >I just had a thought that ties into the "Talia in Karse" thread as well. >Does anyone know what the religion of the Holderkin is/was? Since they >left/were expelled from Karse, I take it that its NOT Vkandis-worship?? >Or is it a "heretical" version of that? Perhaps that has something to do >with Talia being made a Sun-Priest, since she was Holderkin-bred? The Holderkin believe in a dominant God and a very subservient Goddess, and are considered weird by the others living in the south of Valdemar. I don't think we're ever given their names, if the Holderkin even admit to their having personal names. -jenneke I *am* family. How could I not have family values? Only Boys Accepting Feminism Get Kissed Meaningfully -- Geoff Marcy The only unnatural sexual act is that which you cannot perform. -Alfred Kinsey broekman-+AT+-sparky.phast.umass.edu | http://www-astro.phast.umass.edu/gs/jenn.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 23:03:18 -0400 From: "Jennifer S. Broekman" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Vanyel Message-ID: <199509220303.XAA02566-+AT+-sparky.phast.umass.edu> Adrienne York wrote: >I thought Liz was implying that sooner or later Vanyel's Gifts would have >gotten blasted open by 'Lendel, who was rather reckless and impulsive, at >some point. You seem to think Van was chosen to give him emotional >stability. I thought he was Chosen so somebody could get shields on >him. When he was chosen, he was a danger to himself and the Palace, >maybe even all of Haven. I'm not sure about that, since I think it's equally likely that if he hadn't been Chosen he'd have succeeded in suiciding right that night... > Frankly, I think if Tylendel hadn't done such a >stupid thing as to try to sic wyrsa on the Leshara, Van would have >developed a fairly strong Foresight gift, and maybe some Mindspeaking or >Empathy, and been Chosen and lived life as a life-bonded vessel of >power for Tylendel. Me, too!:-) -jenneke I *am* family. How could I not have family values? Only Boys Accepting Feminism Get Kissed Meaningfully -- Geoff Marcy The only unnatural sexual act is that which you cannot perform. -Alfred Kinsey broekman-+AT+-sparky.phast.umass.edu | http://www-astro.phast.umass.edu/gs/jenn.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 15:53:15 +1200 From: "Sarah Stock" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Lifebonds Message-ID: <199509220312.PAA04841-+AT+-ftp.paradigm.co.nz> > Somebody said, in one of the books, I think it might have been Talia in > one of the Arrows books, that there was a theory that lifebonds occurred > when there was someone with a strong Gift who was emotionally unstable. > Evidence for this theory would be Talia&Dirk, and Keren&Sherill/Ylsa. My > question, in the Vanyel&Stefen/Tylendel pairing, and the > Firesong&An'desha pairing, who is the crazier partner? My other question > is is this a valid theory. > To any seekers of Freudian slips, yes, I have put who I consider to be > the less stable of the lifebond in front. Oh, and if evidence on > Firesong&Andesha is coming from Storm Rising, please don't be terribly > specific. I still haven't read it. :( I haven't read SR yet either, but I've read enough hints that I will just leave the Firesong&Andesha relationship alone. However, I would defintely say the Vanyel was always the emotionally unstable one in both pairings. Even at a very young age, Stefan was much more okay with his sexuality that Van was. Even after they had gotten together, Van still had difficulties with Stefan. I'm mainly thinking of the trip into the wildneress to find Learth? He wasn't even talking to Stef about anything until after the rape! I always thought that Van was very! difficult to get close to. He had all sorts of reasons, all of them valid, but I think he was too quick to let people get away. That makes three things I've replied to. Obviously rereading all of ML's books helps, at least if you are on this mailing list :-) Sarah ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 23:22:50 -0400 From: "Jennifer S. Broekman" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Yfandes (WAS)Re: SR tied into the LHM thread... Message-ID: <199509220322.XAA02581-+AT+-sparky.phast.umass.edu> Eric wrote: >Okay this message was talking about deities and death and the relationships >going on. Now I am reading Belgarath the Sorcerer now; which has nothing to >do with Misty except the fact that the gods there have a purpose and people >don't have free will with them. They will sacrific someones happiness to >further their plans. After all the ultimate destiny is what is important not >one "human's" happiness. Granted the deities of Misty seem to care more >about the individual but that doesn't stop bad things from happening. Specifically, the gods of Light seems to have given the mortals real, meaningful free will, including the ability to completely and totally screw things up and have to literally sacrifice some of themselves to get things fixed somewhat. They care, but they're not babysitters... >I am sure that there was some sort of plan of what was going to happen >through most of the stories. If someone had to suffer or die to get to the >next point of greater good for everyone then that is what has to happen. > Vanyel was a very important and major character in the history of Valdemar >do you honestly think it was just chance all the things that happened in his >life. All the circumstances that happened; most falling neatly into place >one after another. When you read a story, anything that happens falls neatly into place, simply because it's a story, and it has a beginning, a middle, and an end. Try to tell a story about yourself someday. I do honestly think that the gods of Light (and probably the other gods, as well) didn't have their mitts all over Vanyel's Destiny. Some very powerful mages *did*, however, including Leareth. I think that the backlash that blasted Van's Gifts open may have been an attempt by Leareth to kill Van, as well as Tylendel. I think that Savil and Starwind and Moondance were doing their damnedest to manipulate Vanyel in the direction they wanted him to go, even if they saw it as educating or enlightening him, rather than manipulating. I think that the only even semi-direct intervention by any deity in Vanyel's life and death was when the Shadowlover (not a deity him/herself) was given the right to let Vanyel choose whether or not to continue living. >What about the general feeling of all heralds about helping out everyone. To >coin a phrase "the good of the many, outway the good of the one". If I was a ^ outweigh, as in to be heavier than >god and something needed to happen that was to the good of the planet I sure >would not hesitate to do what I had to to get it done. Well, I would. If I gave the mortals free will in the first place, they get to deal with the consequences of the choices they make. If they really, desperately need help and have done the absolute best that they could with their resources and they ask nicely and have heeded all of the signs and Avatars I've sent their way, then I'll help, in exchange for promises to do better next time to avert the crisis, but walking entails falling on one's face every now and again... >Finally who says death is so bad? Do you have personal experiences you want >to share about anything? I think everyone is entitled to their own opinion >of it. But it seems to me to be something that most of the characters in >Misty's books don't fear as some awful ending. Its just a change to >something else. Um... Just because Death isn't so bad, why should it follow that the deities plan it in advance for us individually? Personally, RL, I don't believe that death is an evil, but that doesn't mean that I think that any deities which might exist construct Grand Destinies for anyone or plan any deaths at all, even if they're "for the greater good". It seems to me that it cheapens Vanyel's sacrifice (in choosing to live and die the way he did) to say that he didn't really have a choice in the matter and everything was planned by a deity from the start for the greater good of Valdemar and Velgarth as a whole. -jenneke I *am* family. How could I not have family values? Only Boys Accepting Feminism Get Kissed Meaningfully -- Geoff Marcy The only unnatural sexual act is that which you cannot perform. -Alfred Kinsey broekman-+AT+-sparky.phast.umass.edu | http://www-astro.phast.umass.edu/gs/jenn.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Sep 95 20:17:48 -0700 From: steph-+AT+-escher.mbi.ucla.edu (Stephanie Wukovitz) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Lots of things. Message-ID: <9509220317.AA23507-+AT+-escher.mbi.ucla.edu> Cecile mentioned wondering what the religion of the Holderkin is and whether it might be some variant on Vkandis-worship. I recall (I think from Arrow's Flight...my books are 2500 miles away until Saturday) when Talia is getting to know Kris and vice versa: Something about the Holderkin having a dominant, ruling god and a passive, submissive goddess. I don't recall holderkin religion being mentioned many other places except for the beginning of Arrows of the Queen, and then just the stuff about Talia being horrified about being in that goddess' service ("forbidden speech, forbidden life" or something like that). So they might have split off from Sunlord religion while the Karsites still worshipped a goddess as well, but there doesn't seem to be anything to support or refute that IMO (unless y'all can think of something else :) -Stephanie ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Sep 95 14:31:01 EST From: mealink-+AT+-syd.au.swissbank.com (Kerry Mealing) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Deities & Free will. Was: Re: Yfandes (WAS)Re: SR tied into the LHM thread... Message-ID: <9509220431.AA16595-+AT+-syd.au.swissbank.com> Eric writes: > Okay this message was talking about deities and death and the relationships > going on. Now I am reading Belgarath the Sorcerer now; which has nothing to > do with Misty except the fact that the gods there have a purpose and people > don't have free will with them. They will sacrific someones happiness to > further their plans. After all the ultimate destiny is what is important not > one "human's" happiness. Granted the deities of Misty seem to care more > about the individual but that doesn't stop bad things from happening. > I am sure that there was some sort of plan of what was going to happen > through most of the stories. If someone had to suffer or die to get to the > next point of greater good for everyone then that is what has to happen. Errr, no. That's not supported by the facts in Misty's books. The gods/goddesses (I imagine being politically correct about the nomenclature of deities is rather important ) do *not* seem to actively interfere. And certainly not to sacrifice 'good' individuals for the benefit of the many. I'd more or less take exception to the lack of free will in the Belgarath series too. Yes there is a prophecy occasionally nudging a key people (normally they react as it needs anyway just because that's their normal reaction) at cusp events but to say that "people don't have free will" is perhaps overstating the case. (Despite what Belgarath maintains in that series, to me, the whole underlying them is that people *do* have free will - that's what the 'events' and 'The Choice/s' (tm) were all about after all). Oh.. this is the Lackey list? Oops.. :) > Vanyel was a very important and major character in the history of Valdemar > do you honestly think it was just chance all the things that happened in his > life. All the circumstances that happened; most falling neatly into place > one after another. Chance? Not entirely, nothing's *ever* totally chance, but I don't think the deities manipulated every step (or even most steps) of the way. Think about it logistically - if you as a god are going to interfere to that extent, wouldn't it just be more efficient to drop a lightning bolt on Leareth in the first place? The threats to Valdemaar, all the problems that occur, the mage-wars etc all indicate that deities do not intervene to the extent that you're implying. Certainly, they may choose to aid, when petitioned, but asking for outside help isn't the same as having that outside help intervene unasked and direct your every move. > What about the general feeling of all heralds about helping out everyone. To > coin a phrase "the good of the many, outway the good of the one". If I was a > god and something needed to happen that was to the good of the planet I sure > would not hesitate to do what I had to to get it done. Umm.. perhaps I've read too much science fiction but that type of statement sets all sorts of alarm bells ringing in my head. > Finally who says death is so bad? Do you have personal experiences you want > to share about anything? I think everyone is entitled to their own opinion > of it. But it seems to me to be something that most of the characters in > Misty's books don't fear as some awful ending. Its just a change to > something else. Nope.. from a narrative perspective perhaps. But the characters don't know what's going to happen after they die. They grieve for others when they die and blame themselves if they think they could have prevented that death. This is a judaeo-christian example (I'm not trying to be religion-centric but that's my background) - from what I see just from my admittedly-limited experience, even people who believe in heaven and believe they have some hope of ending up there, are often afraid to die. And why not? It is after all a step into the unknown.. a little trepidation isn't unnatural, it's a survival instinct in many situations. > Anyhow enough theological debates for one message! Nah, you've started something now.. :) > Eric Kerry. -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -- Kerry J Mealing mealink-+AT+-syd.au.swissbank.com What gifts hath fate for all his chivalry? Even such as hearts heroic oftenest win.. honour, anguish and untimely death.. And yet, I don't know that that's such a bad reward. I had those words carved on his tombstone & I've often thought I'd be proud to have earned them on my own. -- The Avenging Saint. ------------------------------ End of MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 152 *********************************