MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 153 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re: I Have A Question... by RLGilb-+AT+-aol.com 2) Re: Lots of things. by RLGilb-+AT+-aol.com 3) Re: Wacky Monarch's Own Theory by RLGilb-+AT+-aol.com 4) Re: LHM(SPOILER) by RLGilb-+AT+-aol.com 5) Re: In defence of Elspeth by RLGilb-+AT+-aol.com 6) Re: Lots of things. by RLGilb-+AT+-aol.com 7) Re: LHM(SPOILER) by "Edward B. Adams" 8) RE: Another Companion Thought by Gyrfalcon 9) ADMIN: DIgests and quotas and mail, oh my! by mel (Melanie Dymond Harper) 10) Re: Wacky Monarch's Own Theory by Michele.H.Chang-+AT+-Dartmouth.EDU (Michele H. Chang) 11) Re: Wacky Monarch's Own Theory by Queen of the Darned 12) Re: Gods, Goddesses, etc. (WAS Re: Lots of things.) by "Cecile S. Ueltschey" 13) Re: Wacky Monarch's Own Theory by "Cecile S. Ueltschey" 14) Re: Alright I surrender by "Cecile S. Ueltschey" 15) RE: LHM(SPOILER) by "Cecile S. Ueltschey" 16) RE: I'm back! by "Jennifer S. Broekman" 17) Re: ADMIN: DIgests and quotas and mail, oh my! by "Jennifer S. Broekman" 18) RE: LHM(SPOILER) by Hank Cannon 19) Re: Lots of things. by dstorrs-+AT+-crossover.com (David K. Storrs) 20) Re: Vrondi/Web (was: RE: Wacky Monarch's Own Theory) by dstorrs-+AT+-crossover.com (David K. Storrs) 21) RE: LHM(SPOILER) by h-wilfehrt-+AT+-nwu.edu (Helen M. Wilfehrt) 22) Re: Wacky Monarch's Own Theory by h-wilfehrt-+AT+-nwu.edu (Helen M. Wilfehrt) 23) Re: LHM(SPOILER) by h-wilfehrt-+AT+-nwu.edu (Helen M. Wilfehrt) 24) Re: Question about the MOC by dstorrs-+AT+-crossover.com (David K. Storrs) 25) Re: Wacky Monarch's Own Theory by dstorrs-+AT+-crossover.com (David K. Storrs) 26) Re: LHM(SPOILER) by h-wilfehrt-+AT+-nwu.edu (Helen M. Wilfehrt) 27) Re: Wacky Monarch's Own Theory by dstorrs-+AT+-crossover.com (David K. Storrs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 04:36:05 -0400 From: RLGilb-+AT+-aol.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: I Have A Question... Message-ID: <950922043604_105829513-+AT+-mail06.mail.aol.com> Actually Tashir appears, as heir to Baires and Lineas, in Magic's Promise as Vanyel's nephew Medren is discovered to have Bardic gifts. When Vanyel and Jervis become friends Tashir and Medren are sparring with each other. Also It is Medren, at Bardic, who introduces Vanyel to Stephen in Magic's Price, the final book in the Trilogy. Ronald ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 04:36:10 -0400 From: RLGilb-+AT+-aol.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Lots of things. Message-ID: <950922043609_105829532-+AT+-emout06.mail.aol.com> As for how Ghost got that particular name, Yfandes gave it to him. His habit was to only come in to Forest Reach for food and then out again. He didn' want to be trapped. He had according to Yfandes "frightening the farmers no end." As to companions not giving their name to non-mindspeakers hat about Rolan and Talia? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 04:36:13 -0400 From: RLGilb-+AT+-aol.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Wacky Monarch's Own Theory Message-ID: <950922043611_105829539-+AT+-mail02.mail.aol.com> Something interesting is that only Heralds and Hawkbrothers are able to see vrondi, other mages can't. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 04:31:53 -0400 From: RLGilb-+AT+-aol.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: LHM(SPOILER) Message-ID: <950922043153_105829517-+AT+-emout04.mail.aol.com> I would like to interject that companions choose those with dormant gifts, not gifts in potential. Companions would be able to see the difference. This is not to say that they are Omniscient, remember when Talia answered the children's questions at her first stop with Kris. >The boy looked thoughtful at this "So you move all the time, to make sure it's the job >that stays important, not the person doing it. I bet if you stayed in one place to long, >you'd get too bound up with the people to judge right, too." >A little startled by this observation, so very accurate, she sent a fleeting thought >toward the stable. >Since she wasn't in trance, Rolan couldn't give her more than a vague feeling -- but the >impression was that he had already noted this boy, and it was very probable that the >child was going to receive a hooved visitor in the next year or two. This indicates that companions are on the look out for new chosens all the time. They are found on Circuits, on special missions (hence the reason for those outside Valdemar), or just within the city. As for those such as Alberich, his gift signalled (i can't remember is companions name) to come and get him. As for Vanyel, his gifts were all in potential that's why he was not chosen. When they were all blasted open by the gate energy Yfandes chose him. As for his attitudes and faults, Vanyel under other circumstances, might never have been so suspicious, or arrogant, or even dependent. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 04:36:08 -0400 From: RLGilb-+AT+-aol.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: In defence of Elspeth Message-ID: <950922043604_105829506-+AT+-mail04.mail.aol.com> Are we forgetting in this instance that for Elspeth to even become MO Talia would have to be repudiated (highly unlikely) or killed. While she does continue to perform diplomatic visits (ie. traveling to Rethwellan to acquire the services of King Faram, and Captain Kero) she is usually accompanied by her lifebonded Dirk, and both companions. It seems highly unlikely for her to be killed. Also remember that Rolan is MOC. Elspeth has already bonded quite tightly with Gwena. If the reason for Jissa not bonding with her companion in Magics Price was because she would bond with her mothers companion Taver (I think) to become MO, then Elspeth would not be able to be chosen by Rolan. This does bring up an interesting question on wether the companions would be "jealous" (for lack of a better word) of being a temporary. Ron ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 04:36:11 -0400 From: RLGilb-+AT+-aol.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Lots of things. Message-ID: <950922043608_105829527-+AT+-emout05.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 95-09-19 21:00:50 EDT, you write: >.The whole episode in LHM about the fault and the Heartstone >and Tashir/Ghost seemed to me pretty significant. I can't help but think >that there will be ramifications seen in the Storms books (have gotten >about half-way through Warning). But why didn't Vanyel mention it when >Elspeth and co. were in Sorrows? >Anyone care to speculate on _this_ thread?? Didn't Vanyel himself drain the node to much when he used the energy to kill Vedric and the Mavelans and then gate he and Jervis back to Forest Reach. I know the Castle was destroyed due to an earthquake. If so then there would be little if any ramifications from the storms and Vanyel wouldn't have need to mention it. Also maybe Vanyel believes that the Adept spell will hold, or maybe he can't tell them. He may have to let them handle it themselves. The only reason he appeared was to tell the mages about the protections. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 08:02:56 -0400 (EDT) From: "Edward B. Adams" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: LHM(SPOILER) Message-ID: On Thu, 21 Sep 1995, Sarah Stock wrote: > > I think I see a discrepancy here. How does the MOC leave the > Collegium to search for his herald, if he often chooses someone > already a herald, or in training? I don't have my books with me, so > I'm not sure how accurate the quote above is, but it reads as what I > remember. What, the herald he wants is automatically on holiday? > This doesn't make any sense. > What do you think, another bug :-) > Actually, this does make sense: remember that most Heralds spend very little time in Haven itself. Most are riding circuit for much of their time, so unless a Herald was teaching at the time, between assignments, or permenantly assigned to Haven, then the MOC would have to serach him/her out. Zhai'helleva Ned Ned Adams aka S. Baldrick Sometimes it is better to light a sbaldric-+AT+-roanoke.infi.net flamethrower than to curse the darkness (540) 890-0212 (T. Pratchett) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 08:58:17 -0400 (EDT) From: Gyrfalcon To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: RE: Another Companion Thought Message-ID: > Another thought along these lines--what happens to lifebonded Heralds? If > they come back as Companions, wouldn't they have to kind of stick together? > Assuming that they'd both reincarnate at about the same time, which I think > is reasonable. Could it be that each half comes back as a Herald-Companion set? I mean, we have see that heralds also come back as humans, as well as companions, so it doesn't seem unreasonable that if one would be reborn into a human, the other would choose him/her. Does this make sense, or should I give up and go back to sleep? --Gyrfalcon =======================msowers-+AT+-menger.eecs.stevens-tech.edu=================== Magic still exists. We have only to reach out and touch it, it is a part of the very fabric of the world. When our belief of magic completely dies this universe shall die. Because that magic; Hope, Dreams, Love, Beauty, Wonder, Belief, and Discovery are what make us a people. They are all part of a great Art whose workings are still a mystery but whose applications can be seen every day. If we ever lose the Art mankind shall not last the day. Let the magic that is in us roam free in our work, play, in each other, and most of all in ourselves. Let it roam free or it will die. ============================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 14:03:46 +0100 From: mel (Melanie Dymond Harper) To: mercedes-lackey Subject: ADMIN: DIgests and quotas and mail, oh my! Message-ID: <9509221303.AA15158-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk> I have no idea what the mail quota on AOL is, nor whether it has changed recently, but an unusually large number of AOL users seem to be having quota problems at the moment. I have changed the subscriptions of the affected people to use DIGEST mode, in hopes of cutting down some of the tidal wave of bounce messages that the overfull mailboxes are generating. This also applies more generally; accounts where there seems to be a temporary inability to deliver mail will probably, once I get tired of seeing the same bounce message several times :), be set to DIGEST. Anything which comes back "user unknown", or multiple occurrences of "could not deliver for N days, giving up" will probably result in unsubscription (particularly in the former case, this may be automatically done by the software). I try to give people a few days' grace where possible, in case it is a system problem at their end. If you wind up in DIGEST mode due to one of these problems, then to get back out of digest mode you need to send mail to listproc-+AT+-herald.co.uk with a blank subject line (or one saying "No Subject", for those whose mailers don't let them leave it blank), with the following message: set mercedes-lackey mail ack For those who are finding the load a little hard to keep up with at the moment, you may wish to consider switching to digest mode; digests are sent out once a day, or every 1000 lines of messages, whichever comes first. To switch to digest mode, follow the instructions as above but send set mercedes-lackey mail digest Hope this helps. Cheers Mel. ------------------------------ Date: 22 Sep 95 09:16:33 EDT From: Michele.H.Chang-+AT+-Dartmouth.EDU (Michele H. Chang) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Wacky Monarch's Own Theory Message-ID: <9836494-+AT+-cupid.Dartmouth.EDU> --- You wrote: > > This is the only reference to this in any of the books, and > > Vanyel was startled that it happened. But, according to my > > understanding of how the Web Mk II was established, the Vrondi > > should immediately have realized that Van was a Herald and not > > tapped him. What's the deal? > > > How do the vrondi recognize the Heralds? Clothing or the Companion, > probably. At least, that would be my guess. Ok, now, Vanyel is at > home, he is supposed to rest, and so, he wears _not_ his usual, white > uniform, but civilian clothes. Right? And, he wanted to think > something through, and so, he took another horse, _not_ Yfandes. So, > what do we have? A mage. There is nothing for the vrondi to tell > that he is a Herald-Mage. Does this sound reasonable? Vrondi pick up on the fact that someone is a mage, rather than a Herald-Mage; if I remember rightly, there is some kind of recognition signal that one is supposed to give them if one is an "authorised" mage (which, in this case, means a Herald-Mage). Presumably Herald-Mages would be taught it during training. This, of course, doesn't explain why Elspeth didn't get consistently pestered, except if it picked up only on the use of those powers rather than their mere presence. I tend to think that the vrondi just got bored, with no mages to pester ... :) Mel. --- end of quoted material --- Didn't Vanyel say he was letting the thing he did to protect Valdmar from magic go once, Elspeth and Co. got back to Haven, in the 3rd Winds book. Perhaps this included the vrondi? Tangent: Did anyone else find it amusing when they showed up in the Sorrows and Firesong got extremely ticked off that He didn't know what Vanyel did! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 09:51:19 -0400 (EDT) From: Queen of the Darned To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Wacky Monarch's Own Theory Message-ID: On Thu, 21 Sep 1995, Ina Faye-Lund wrote: > On Thu, 21 Sep 1995 14:18:33 +0100, Melanie Dymond Harper said: > > [Melaine Dymond Harper] > > > This, of course, doesn't explain why Elspeth didn't get consistently > > pestered, except if it picked up only on the use of those powers > > rather than their mere presence. I tend to think that the vrondi > > just got bored, with no mages to pester ... :) It did take people actively using power for the virondi to notice -- remember Hulda? She was a mage, but she never used mage powers in Valdemar so they never knew. This is pointed out somewhere in one of the books, but I have a test to run off to, so I can't look right now. > Hardly. Remember that mage who tried to follow the merc company over? Yes, and they used magic inside the border. Talk to you all later! Jenny <^><^><^><^><^><^><^><^><^><^><^><^><^><^><^><^><^><^><^><^><^><^><^><^><^> "The knack of flying is learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss." -- Douglas Adams <^><^><^><^><^><^><^><^><^><^><^><^><^><^><^><^><^><^><^><^><^><^><^><^><^> ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 08:53:17 -0500 (CDT) From: "Cecile S. Ueltschey" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Gods, Goddesses, etc. (WAS Re: Lots of things.) Message-ID: On Thu, 21 Sep 1995, Jennifer S. Broekman wrote: > I don't think the emphasis is on the names, so much as the fact of the > pair. Had they been going to the area where the People of the One > live, I imagine Kris would've said something to the effect of that > they worship the God as The One. Had they been going to an area which > worshipped the Triple Goddess, I imagine he would've said something to > the effect of that they worship the Lady as Agnira, Agnetha, and > Agnoma. He was putting their religion into a framework that Talia > would've understood, probably because it's a convenient way to teach > the Religions class. Good point, I hadn't considered that. > > >perhaps the worship of "the One" was a "newer" belief system realtive to > >the "Sacred Couple" (thanks to whomever coined that!), like when Abraham > >and his people left Ur at the directions of "the Lord God" - the > >founding, if you will, of the Judeo-Christian-Islam monotheism. We really > >little strange (including Heralds). OR, like Vkandis' consort, one of > >them got "lost"??? (I admit, that's a stretch in this case!) > >Interesting that only two monotheistic religions are mentioned at all, > >and Vkandis' seems to have changed from a dual theology to a monotheistic > >one (hopefully we'll find out more about that in the other Storms books!) > > Just as an aside, from what I've heard, Jehovah had a consort who got > "lost", too, while the Jews were struggling to keep themselves > separate from the neighboring tribes, many of whom worshipped a > Goddess. I don't really want to get into a ("real life") religious beliefs argument or, Havens forbid, a flame war (everyone has a right to their own beliefs, what follows is purely in an academic vein), but in my experience with the literature and archeology of the Middle East, most of the "neighboring tribes" were polytheistic and patriarchal. Abram and his father Terah were from the _city_ of Ur of the Chaldees which had several cults of a pantheon of gods and goddesses, with major and minor temples of the State religion. Most of the solely goddess-centered religions that I know of were from farther north (present day Turkey, the Caucasus, etc.). Also, many of the references in Genesis to "other religions" were primarily to the worship of Baal (who was male). Interestingly enough, many of the pagan religions in the area have, as part of their creation myth, the slaying of a monster by a hero to create the earth. Usually this god-hero is male, and the earth-monster is female. It would be interesting to discover what the preceeding people's religions were. But this would definately be pre-history AND predate many of the Bible stories by several centuries. Sorry to get off thread, here. I don't get much chance to discuss things like that anymore! I finished SW and am looking forward to SR, which I think I will try to get at the library. But for now, I'm rereading SW from where the first wave hits - I started reading real fast as things built up! So far, I've liked it - it has set the scene for "the coming perils" very well, I think. And I like Karal, Altra, and even Tremane. In a way I feel sorry for him, but like the way he is concerned for his soldiers. Although, if you're going to be Emperor you do need the Army's support! But I think his concern is genuine. Sigh. Another day at work. Bright the day (?) Cecile ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 09:05:29 -0500 (CDT) From: "Cecile S. Ueltschey" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Wacky Monarch's Own Theory Message-ID: On Thu, 21 Sep 1995, Ina Faye-Lund wrote: > On Wed, 20 Sep 1995 22:43:32 +0100, dstorrs-+AT+-crossover.com said: > > > This is the only reference to this in any of the books, and > > Vanyel was startled that it happened. But, according to my > > understanding of how the Web Mk II was established, the Vrondi > > should immediately have realized that Van was a Herald and not > > tapped him. What's the deal? > > > How do the vrondi recognize the Heralds? Clothing or the Companion, > probably. At least, that would be my guess. Ok, now, Vanyel is at > home, he is supposed to rest, and so, he wears _not_ his usual, white > uniform, but civilian clothes. Right? And, he wanted to think > something through, and so, he took another horse, _not_ Yfandes. So, > what do we have? A mage. There is nothing for the vrondi to tell > that he is a Herald-Mage. Does this sound reasonable? I think you're on to something here, Ina. Heralds in the field would always be in Whites and with their Companions (at least they would be nearby). Maybe the vrondi could sense the Companions' "glow" that is seen by mage-sight? Cecile ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 09:00:28 -0500 (CDT) From: "Cecile S. Ueltschey" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Alright I surrender Message-ID: On Wed, 20 Sep 1995, Jennifer S. Broekman wrote: > Jerry Cullingford wrote: > >On the other hand, given 's performance with Selenay - > >or the little we hear about it - I'm still not convinced he had empathy in > >any useful ammount - what do the rest of you think? > > My guess would be that one can have enough Empathy/MindHealing to make > a good Monarch's Own for one person, and still not be comfortable > giving personal advice to the next Monarch. I don't imagine that > being over 60 and having to tell a headstrong, attractive, teenaged > Monarch that she's being an idiot about her personal life is an easy > thing. Even if one knows that she's being an idiot and knows the words > to say to her about it, they may not be words that one is comfortable > saying, and that can entirely ruin the effect... > Hi again, jenneke! I certainly agree with you here. The Monarch's Own seems to be Chosen on the basis of what Gifts and *how much* of those Gifts are needed by the Monarch in their advisor. Maybe Talamir was a good "sounding board" for the Monarch's strategy in the Tedral Wars and in pulling Valdemar back together afterward, but completely wrong for Selenay and her situation. He DID have a good idea in sending the Brat away for fostering and getting her away from Hulda, but that was his undoing. I'm kind of surprised that there weren't any attempts on Selenay at the same time, at least I don't recall any being mentioned. Wind to thy wings! Cecile ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 09:14:53 -0500 (CDT) From: "Cecile S. Ueltschey" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: RE: LHM(SPOILER) Message-ID: On Thu, 21 Sep 1995, Adrienne York wrote: > On Wed, 20 Sep 1995, Cecile S. Ueltschey wrote: > > (giant chunk removed from very long post) > > Question: It appears that we've all interepreted "the testing" that is > > referred to is a testing of who is Herald material and might be Chosen. > > But maybe it is only a testing of Mage-gift? So that the Heralds could > > make sure that Mage-Talented people got *good*, ethical training rather > > that be taken in by a Blood-path mage?? > > I never thought "the testing" done by Savil or Vanyel to be testing on an > ethical level. Frankly, Savil was *bad* at reading people. And Vanyel > had only a very touch and go sort of empathy. I always thought the > testing was *just for Gifts*, whether potential, developing, or active. > And didn't Savil say something about that when Andre asked her to check > out Vanyel's brand new powers in Magic's Promise? > I think I didn't explain myself well. What I meant was, not that the testing included any moral or ethical judgement, but that if someone with Mage-Gift was found that they could be trained. Remember, an untrained Mage-Gift can be *dangerous* to the Gifted and the people around them. Also, they are more *vulnerable* to less-than-ethical Mages (e.g. Quentin's warnings to Skif and Elspeth). The testing (I think) was both to discover those with Mage-Gift so that they could be trained, whether or not they eventually were Chosen as Heralds, but to *protect* them from people who might take advantage of them. Is that better? Cecile ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 10:50:56 -0400 From: "Jennifer S. Broekman" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: RE: I'm back! Message-ID: <199509221450.KAA02909-+AT+-sparky.phast.umass.edu> Rosario Holsen-Baker wrote: > It was the...oh, crap, blanking out..._Wheels of Fire_, that's >it. It also had this elemental fire creature called (appropriatly enough) >the Salamander that stirred up violent emotions in people. IIRC, it was a salamander, as in one of many, but the cult didn't know this. > Hey, here's a question for you. Joe had to have been made to see >at least a few of the meetings. How come the Salamander didn't decide he >was a juicy target and try to exploit the boy's powers or something? Joe doesn't have any powers, other than being a very well trained martial artist and marksman. Any magic he learns is going to be of the trained-will type, not the talent type. -jenneke I *am* family. How could I not have family values? Only Boys Accepting Feminism Get Kissed Meaningfully -- Geoff Marcy The only unnatural sexual act is that which you cannot perform. -Alfred Kinsey broekman-+AT+-sparky.phast.umass.edu | http://www-astro.phast.umass.edu/gs/jenn.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 12:04:12 -0400 From: "Jennifer S. Broekman" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: ADMIN: DIgests and quotas and mail, oh my! Message-ID: <199509221604.MAA02962-+AT+-sparky.phast.umass.edu> Melanie Dymond Harper wrote: >For those who are finding the load a little hard to keep up with at >the moment, you may wish to consider switching to digest mode; digests >are sent out once a day, or every 1000 lines of messages, whichever >comes first. To switch to digest mode, follow the instructions as >above but send >set mercedes-lackey mail digest If you are in digest mode, *please* change the subject in your replies to something more informative than Re: Digest #whatever. This makes life easier for everyone... -jenneke I *am* family. How could I not have family values? Only Boys Accepting Feminism Get Kissed Meaningfully -- Geoff Marcy The only unnatural sexual act is that which you cannot perform. -Alfred Kinsey broekman-+AT+-sparky.phast.umass.edu | http://www-astro.phast.umass.edu/gs/jenn.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 13:15:38 -0600 (CST) From: Hank Cannon To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: RE: LHM(SPOILER) Message-ID: On Thu, 21 Sep 1995, Adrienne York wrote: > On Wed, 20 Sep 1995, Cecile S. Ueltschey wrote: > > (giant chunk removed from very long post) > > Question: It appears that we've all interepreted "the testing" that is > > referred to is a testing of who is Herald material and might be Chosen. > > But maybe it is only a testing of Mage-gift? So that the Heralds could > > make sure that Mage-Talented people got *good*, ethical training rather > > that be taken in by a Blood-path mage?? > > I never thought "the testing" done by Savil or Vanyel to be testing on an > ethical level. Frankly, Savil was *bad* at reading people. And Vanyel > had only a very touch and go sort of empathy. I always thought the > testing was *just for Gifts*, whether potential, developing, or active. > And didn't Savil say something about that when Andre asked her to check > out Vanyel's brand new powers in Magic's Promise? > Reading people's emotional states using Mage Sight to identify gifts are two different things. Savil was an Adept, and she says in Magic's Promise that Mage Sight is one of strongest abilities. Being a field hearld (Which Savil wasn't very good at and Talia was) depended on gaining a people's trust in your rulings. While Talia (and Vanyel as a matter of fact) talked to them and smoothed things, Savil would boom orders and expect them to be followed unquestionably. Wind to Thy Wings Phoenixfire Nscan2659-+AT+-alpha.nsula.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 13:02:50 -0400 From: dstorrs-+AT+-crossover.com (David K. Storrs) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Lots of things. Message-ID: <199509221702.NAA08814-+AT+-prague.crossover.com> >> As I recall from one of the Vows and Honor books...Oathbreakers, I >> believe...the Star-Eyed appeared to Tarma at one point and made some comment >> to either Keth or the herald they were with...Prince Whatshisname...saying >> "I am another aspect of your Lady Windborn" > >Well, that is one of the books that I have here. What the star-lady said to the Herald Rolan and his compainion was: >"Do we not all serve to drive back the Dark, each in his own fashion? So I cry -- well meet, Children of My Other >Self!" This leads me to believe that the Star-lady and the diety that is part of Valdemar are related, but that the way >that they are manefested is diffrent for each country. So maybe the diety in Karse is also the Star lady, but in a >diffrent form. I am not sure, but it is an interesting idea. >Jennie :) Hmmm...good point. But I distinctly remember a passage where the quote about "...of your Lady Windborn." was used -- presumably to Keth. Anyone else know what I'm thinking of? Dave ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 13:05:36 -0400 From: dstorrs-+AT+-crossover.com (David K. Storrs) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Vrondi/Web (was: RE: Wacky Monarch's Own Theory) Message-ID: <199509221705.NAA08820-+AT+-prague.crossover.com> > >IIRC, somewhere, Vanyel says that he never finished the Vrondi spell. He >*wanted* to make them inform Herald-mages of other mages, but he never got to >do that part. He only had time to make them detect and bug _every_ mage >in Valdemar. The part about recognition of Herald-mages was never competed. First off, I'm sure this is a FAQ, but please bear with me, as I figured out all the other abbreviations on my own: what the devil is "IIRC"? Second, Van is _never_ again bothered by the vrondi, nor is any other herald mage...you'd think there would have been some mention, if they were all going batty with curious vrondi peeking over their shoulders every time they did magic. Dave ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 13:20:14 -0500 From: h-wilfehrt-+AT+-nwu.edu (Helen M. Wilfehrt) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: RE: LHM(SPOILER) Message-ID: <199509221820.AA180194013-+AT+-casbah.acns.nwu.edu> >On Wed, 20 Sep 1995, Scarlett E. Blizzard wrote: > >> >> > On Thu, 14 Sep 1995 18:49:16 +0100, Eugene said: >> > >> > >> > > True, but does Savil not state that she is dissapointed that none of >> > > Treesa and Withen's children share her gifts. Vanyel remembers her >> > > saying this after she tests him for Gifts and he comes up with >> > > "potential only". Surely Savil would have said something at this >> > > point like "well if he gets chosen he'll develop gifts", or something >> > > similiar, if this were possible. >> >snip>>snip>> >> >> I always got the feeling that at the time of the testing, Savil was seeing >> the Vanyelthat was wearing a *mask*, and as I recall she wasn't too >> impressed with him as a person. And since her brother Withren (sp?) frowned >> upon her being a Herald, maybe she didn't want to stir up any trouble and >> decided not to say anything, since she had absolutely no control over him >> getting *chosen* any way. > >Can you honestly imagine *Savil* being intimidated by *Withen*? A >goddess maybe, but not Withen. And since the Companions had chosen such >illustrious individuals as thieves and pickpockets, I don't think a >little mask would pose that great a problem. > Remember that argument that she had with Withen once while she was making her Familial visit along with Vanyel...I think Savil wouldn't back down but rather she had just given up dealing with Withen and the other Family members because they could be such block heads. Helen ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 13:16:43 -0500 From: h-wilfehrt-+AT+-nwu.edu (Helen M. Wilfehrt) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Wacky Monarch's Own Theory Message-ID: <199509221816.AA173593803-+AT+-casbah.acns.nwu.edu> >On Thu, 21 Sep 1995 14:18:33 +0100, Melanie Dymond Harper > said: > >[Melaine Dymond Harper] > >> Vrondi pick up on the fact that someone is a mage, rather than a >> Herald-Mage; if I remember rightly, there is some kind of >> recognition signal that one is supposed to give them if one is an >> "authorised" mage (which, in this case, means a Herald-Mage). >> Presumably Herald-Mages would be taught it during training. > > >I don't know. In that case, the Herald-Mages would do nothing else. >Where did you read that? I can't remember that part, but then, my >memory isn't that good. > >> This, of course, doesn't explain why Elspeth didn't get consistently >> pestered, except if it picked up only on the use of those powers >> rather than their mere presence. I tend to think that the vrondi >> just got bored, with no mages to pester ... :) > >Hardly. Remember that mage who tried to follow the merc company over? >He said that he had the feeling someone was watching him all the time. >I think it would be more likely that the vrondi knew how a Herald >would look like, and then pester all those who didn't fit that >description. In addition, there would be a signal, so that >Herald-Mages on holiday or working undercover wouldn't have to be >pestered all the time. > The reason why Elspeth and the other Mages didn't get bothered by the Vrondi is that Vanyel took down that part of the spell which guarded Valdemar via the Vrondi as soon as Elspeth et al were Gated to the Ashkevron estate. Remember he mentioned that he wanted the spell to come down in a controlled manner so that the Vrondi wouldn't be injured by others, namely Ancar and his mages, forcefully battering down the shields. It was mentioned in WOF. Helen ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 13:22:35 -0500 From: h-wilfehrt-+AT+-nwu.edu (Helen M. Wilfehrt) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: LHM(SPOILER) Message-ID: <199509221822.AA185014155-+AT+-casbah.acns.nwu.edu> >[Mat Timmerman] > >> I think that I have an idea of what Teren meant about the MOC always >> searching. If you look at the "normal" Caompanions, many of them >> seem to sit around the Field, waiting for their Chosen to show up in >> Haven. Like, for example, Kris' Companion Tantris. Kris wanted to >> be a Herald, but it wasn't until he went to Court with his parents >> that he was Chosen. IIRC, something like that happened to Dirk too. >> So, I think the difference between MOC Choosing is that other C's >> can go looking for a Chosen, or sit around and wait for him/her. >> The MOC, OTOH, must Choose someone right away. > > >Or, rather, that the MOC doesn't really Choose. The others Choose, >but the MOC knows who he should "Choose", and so, he has to go out to >find this person? Is that a possibility? > > >> Remember that Shavri and Jisa being in Haven and Chosen as MOH is >> the norm. Talia's was the more abnormal Choosing. Didn't someone >> say that it had been a long time since the MOC left Haven for the >> MOH? The thing about searching for a new MOH just means that the >> MOC can't just sit around on his duff like other C's can, waiting >> for the new MOH to show up. > > >Don't remember, but wasn't that about Rolan having gone out to search >three weeks ago, and people thinking that was a long time? > >-- >IFL > >Elen sla lmenn' omentielvo My recollection is that Rolan was gone a couple of months not weeks knowing that he needed just the right person for the next MOH. Helen ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 13:15:16 -0400 From: dstorrs-+AT+-crossover.com (David K. Storrs) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Question about the MOC Message-ID: <199509221715.NAA08835-+AT+-prague.crossover.com> >It has been suggested in previous threads/comments that if the >MO-presumptive is already a Herald their link with their Companion is a >light one, not strong in the way we have seen Talia and Rolan, Elspeth >and Gwena, etc. Almost as if it is a temporary Choosing, to get them >into training and some experience. Does that help? > >Cecile > Errrrmmm...I suppose, but it isn't very satisfying (no flies on you -- I think it's a flutter in the story, myself). Nothing that I ever read about the Companion bond leads me to believe that it can be "light", with the sole exception of Ghost/Tashir, and that was a case of an immature Companion bonding to a badly damaged human child who had been brought up to believe Gifts were evil -- definitely not the circumstances you would generally see in a MOH, presumptive or otherwise. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 13:20:33 -0400 From: dstorrs-+AT+-crossover.com (David K. Storrs) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Wacky Monarch's Own Theory Message-ID: <199509221720.NAA08860-+AT+-prague.crossover.com> >On Wed, 20 Sep 1995 22:43:32 +0100, dstorrs-+AT+-crossover.com said: >How do the vrondi recognize the Heralds? Clothing or the Companion, >probably. At least, that would be my guess. Ok, now, Vanyel is at >home, he is supposed to rest, and so, he wears _not_ his usual, white >uniform, but civilian clothes. Right? And, he wanted to think >something through, and so, he took another horse, _not_ Yfandes. So, >what do we have? A mage. There is nothing for the vrondi to tell >that he is a Herald-Mage. Does this sound reasonable? > Sounds reasonable, but as I recall, the purpose of reworking the Web was so that EVERY herald, not just the Guardians, was part of it -- those with Foresight would sense danger, those near it would find themselves in the saddle, etc. That's how all the heralds know when another herald dies -- and also, I believe we once got a description of the Web from Van's eyes as something he could "see", connecting all the heralds, and that he could reach any of them through it. Dave ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 13:30:39 -0500 From: h-wilfehrt-+AT+-nwu.edu (Helen M. Wilfehrt) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: LHM(SPOILER) Message-ID: <199509221830.AA207894639-+AT+-casbah.acns.nwu.edu> > >> and from Selenay's explanations to Talia upon her arrival " It's a rather >> odd thing, but for various reasons anyone who is of the proper material to >> be a Herald finds his or her way to the city, the Court, or the Collegium >> more often than not. Sometimes, though, the Companions have to go seeking >> their Heralds themselves. There's one Companion that always does this; tell >> me, in the tales you read, did you ever come across the title 'the Monarch's >> Own Herald' ?...(she goes on and describes a MO's duties) ...When that >> Herald dies, the Companion leaves the Collegium to search the Kingdom for a >> successor. In the past reigns that hasn't taken more than a day or two, and >> quite often he Chooses someone who is already a Herald or nearly ready to be >> made one. This time, though, it was different. When Herald Talamir died, >> his Companion was gone for nearly two months, something that hasn't happened >> in a very long time....Well, we think it has something to do with the >> current situation (she goes on & describes the deal with the Brat)." >> > > >I think I see a discrepancy here. How does the MOC leave the >Collegium to search for his herald, if he often chooses someone >already a herald, or in training? I don't have my books with me, so >I'm not sure how accurate the quote above is, but it reads as what I >remember. What, the herald he wants is automatically on holiday? >This doesn't make any sense. >What do you think, another bug :-) > >Sarah Maybe, but maybe the next MOC is out in the field doing a circuit or is on his internship?? Remember how the Heralds quarters are usually rather empty - like Talia's tower where none of her other neighbors were in when she moved into her place. It would seem quite possible that the great majority of Heralds are out patrolling Valdemar with only a small percentage being always around the Collegium. Helen ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 13:23:20 -0400 From: dstorrs-+AT+-crossover.com (David K. Storrs) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Wacky Monarch's Own Theory Message-ID: <199509221723.NAA08877-+AT+-prague.crossover.com> > >Remember, Hulda didn't use magic when she was in Valdemar, so that the >Vrondi wouldn't catch her. But Quenten and Kethry did and both of them >got very uncomfortable. Kethry mentions it later. > > Anne Cross > juniper-+AT+-fledge.watson.com > http://fledge.watson.com/~juniper Wasn't Hulda consistently using illusion to maintain a changed appearance? They never specifically SAY that the disguise is magical, so it could have been physical...or it might be that MAINTAINING magic that was cast outside Valdemar won't attract vrondi (i.e., it is the ritual of starting a spell that they notice, not the flow of magic). Dave ------------------------------ End of MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 153 *********************************