MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 157 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re: Older Chosen by "Jennifer S. Broekman" 2) Re: Lots of things. by "Jennifer S. Broekman" 3) Re: LHM(SPOILER) by "Jennifer S. Broekman" 4) Re: Lifebonds by Catherine Osborne 5) RE: Another Companion Thought by Catherine Osborne 6) RE: LHM(SPOILER) by Catherine Osborne 7) Re: Question about the MOC by "Cecile S. Ueltschey" 8) RE: LHM(SPOILER) by mel (Melanie Dymond Harper) 9) Re: Lifebonds by "Jennifer S. Broekman" 10) Re: Grove-Born tangent by "Jennifer S. Broekman" 11) Re: Wacky Monarch's Own Theory by h-wilfehrt-+AT+-nwu.edu (Helen M. Wilfehrt) 12) Re: Wacky Monarch's Own Theory by h-wilfehrt-+AT+-nwu.edu (Helen M. Wilfehrt) 13) Re: Wacky Monarch's Own Theory by dstorrs-+AT+-crossover.com (David K. Storrs) 14) Re: Wacky Monarch's Own Theory by dstorrs-+AT+-crossover.com (David K. Storrs) 15) Joe's Abilities (was RE: I'm back!) by Mat Timmerman 16) SR and Firesong (SPOILER) by Rosario Holsen-Baker 17) Re: Wacky Monarch's Own Theory by Adrienne York 18) Re: Lifebonds by PTJ-+AT+-badger.demon.co.uk (Philip Johnson) 19) Re: MERCEDES-LACKEY digest 153 by harkerii-+AT+-ix.netcom.com (John Edwards ) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 25 Sep 1995 18:22:38 -0400 From: "Jennifer S. Broekman" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Older Chosen Message-ID: <199509252222.SAA03805-+AT+-sparky.phast.umass.edu> Adrienne York wrote: >On Sat, 23 Sep 1995, Jeanne Hedge wrote: >>If people are older than "kids" when Chosen, do they have to go thru the >>whole Herald-Trainee, Gray-wearing, Collegium business? The books seem to >>contradict themselves on this. >>In "Arrows of the Queen", Sherril tells Talia that Elcarth wasn't Chosen >>until he was 20 and didn't get his Whites until 3 years later. But in "By It was Teren, wasn't it? >Those are two very different situations, I think. Wasn't Elcarth a >fisherman? Not much of fisherman training would apply to what Herald's Teren, like Keren and Sherill, was from the lake district. I haven't the foggiest idea where Elcarth came from. >situation. My guess is, people are given as much training as they >*need*, and if they pretty much know all they need to know, they're given >a few supplemental classes. This sounds right to me. In Kero's case, they would've been almost entirely in the history and laws of Valdemar. Geography, the political situation, and courtly graces she already had down pat.:-) Also, Kero might've been given Whites purely for expedience: her expertise was needed immediately, and Selenay wouldn't've wanted nitpickers to harp on her not having her Whites yet as a reason why she shouldn't be listened to. -jenneke I *am* family. How could I not have family values? Only Boys Accepting Feminism Get Kissed Meaningfully -- Geoff Marcy The only unnatural sexual act is that which you cannot perform. -Alfred Kinsey broekman-+AT+-sparky.phast.umass.edu | http://www-astro.phast.umass.edu/gs/jenn.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Sep 1995 21:46:18 -0400 From: "Jennifer S. Broekman" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Lots of things. Message-ID: <199509260146.VAA03983-+AT+-sparky.phast.umass.edu> RLGilb-+AT+-aol.com wrote: >As to companions not giving their name to non-mindspeakers hat about Rolan >and Talia? Rolan is an exception: the Monarch's Own's Companion always gives his name to his Herald. -jenneke I *am* family. How could I not have family values? Only Boys Accepting Feminism Get Kissed Meaningfully -- Geoff Marcy The only unnatural sexual act is that which you cannot perform. -Alfred Kinsey broekman-+AT+-sparky.phast.umass.edu | http://www-astro.phast.umass.edu/gs/jenn.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Sep 1995 22:13:25 -0400 From: "Jennifer S. Broekman" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: LHM(SPOILER) Message-ID: <199509260213.WAA04010-+AT+-sparky.phast.umass.edu> Helen M. Wilfehrt wrote: >his internship?? Remember how the Heralds quarters are usually rather >empty - like Talia's tower where none of her other neighbors were in when >she moved into her place. It would seem quite possible that the great >majority of Heralds are out patrolling Valdemar with only a small >percentage being always around the Collegium. I agree that the majority of Heralds aren't at Haven for anything other than major celebrations like Talia's wedding and the ceremony of crowning the Heir, but I thought Talia's tower was empty because there were no other Heralds who lived there at all, due to the relatively small number of Heralds and the tower's out of the way location and lack of private facilities... -jenneke I *am* family. How could I not have family values? Only Boys Accepting Feminism Get Kissed Meaningfully -- Geoff Marcy The only unnatural sexual act is that which you cannot perform. -Alfred Kinsey broekman-+AT+-sparky.phast.umass.edu | http://www-astro.phast.umass.edu/gs/jenn.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Sep 1995 09:04:32 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine Osborne To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Lifebonds Message-ID: Before discussing Firesong&An'desha's relationship, I *strongly* suggest reading SR. That's *very* strongly. Evidence in there moves that particular debate into the realm of irrelevancy. Although, generally, I would say that in SW An'desha is *far* more unstable than Firesong. Speaking of SR -- I just read it on my sick day yesterday and it was great! I had misgivings about getting it after the WG fiasco, but figured worth a try and loved it. It wasn't LHM, but very few things are. Characterizations are up to par again (Karal, Tremane - very good stuff -, An'desha, Firesong, Solaris) and plots were good, writing displayed almost none of the carelessness that marked WG, and there were some *major* surprises regarding previously established theories and plots which I won't spoil here. Just say your in for a treat when you get around to it. BTW, sorry if anyone got a bounced mail message between Thursday eve and Sat. morning... I do apologize... I\/ Catherine Osborne "I will not go down to I\/ Sundancer posterity talking bad I cosborne-+AT+-sidwell.edu grammar." I http://www.sidwell.edu/~cosborne/ --Disraeli ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Sep 1995 09:06:51 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine Osborne To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: RE: Another Companion Thought Message-ID: On Fri, 22 Sep 1995, Gyrfalcon wrote: > Could it be that each half comes back as a Herald-Companion set? I mean, > we have see that heralds also come back as humans, as well as companions, > so it doesn't seem unreasonable that if one would be reborn into a human, > the other would choose him/her. I think that would put an inequality into the relationship, although good idea... what about twin or else mated Companions? I\/ Catherine Osborne "I will not go down to I\/ Sundancer posterity talking bad I cosborne-+AT+-sidwell.edu grammar." I http://www.sidwell.edu/~cosborne/ --Disraeli ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Sep 1995 09:09:52 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine Osborne To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: RE: LHM(SPOILER) Message-ID: On Fri, 22 Sep 1995, Cecile S. Ueltschey wrote: > > And didn't Savil say something about that when Andre asked her to check > > out Vanyel's brand new powers in Magic's Promise? Sorry if I'm being dense, but who the hell is Andre in connection with Vanyel? Isn't Andre in *other* books? I\/ Catherine Osborne "I will not go down to I\/ Sundancer posterity talking bad I cosborne-+AT+-sidwell.edu grammar." I http://www.sidwell.edu/~cosborne/ --Disraeli ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Sep 1995 08:18:37 -0500 (CDT) From: "Cecile S. Ueltschey" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Question about the MOC Message-ID: On Fri, 22 Sep 1995, David K. Storrs wrote: > >It has been suggested in previous threads/comments that if the > >MO-presumptive is already a Herald their link with their Companion is a > >light one, not strong in the way we have seen Talia and Rolan, Elspeth > >and Gwena, etc. Almost as if it is a temporary Choosing, to get them > >into training and some experience. Does that help? > > > >Cecile > > > > > Errrrmmm...I suppose, but it isn't very satisfying (no flies on you > -- I think it's a flutter in the story, myself). Nothing that I ever read > about the Companion bond leads me to believe that it can be "light", with > the sole exception of Ghost/Tashir, and that was a case of an immature > Companion bonding to a badly damaged human child who had been brought up to > believe Gifts were evil -- definitely not the circumstances you would > generally see in a MOH, presumptive or otherwise. > > No, its not very satisfying, but its the best explanation - really the only explanation - this thread has yielded. We only have Selenay's remarks about the MOC Choosing someone who is already a Herald, I can't recall any examples of a "temporary" bond (unless its something like........... POSSIBLE SPOILER FOR SW: Florian bespeaking Karal, without actually Choosing him??? There, that's all I'll say. Cecile ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Sep 1995 14:57:13 +0100 From: mel (Melanie Dymond Harper) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: RE: LHM(SPOILER) Message-ID: <9509261357.AA16979-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk> > Sorry if I'm being dense, but who the hell is Andre in connection with > Vanyel? Isn't Andre in *other* books? He's the Healer, and (I get the impression) Savil's occasional lover. I have a feeling he may be Andrew, rather than Andre, but the books aren't to hand. M. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Sep 1995 10:07:02 -0400 From: "Jennifer S. Broekman" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Lifebonds Message-ID: <199509261407.KAA04257-+AT+-sparky.phast.umass.edu> Anne Cross wrote: [jenneke wrote:] >> Firesong and An'desha are not actually a lifebonded pair. Other pairs >> for your consideration: Selenay/Daren, Kerowyn/Eldan, Kethry/Jadrek, >Kethry and Jadrek weren't lifebonded. They were just madly in love. >Remember, Jadrek's been dead for some time before Kero was born, but >Kethry's still around, and there's no indication she went mad with grief >the way Keren did when Ysla died. I don't think that going mad with grief is normal for the stable partner, which, IMO, Kethry was. Evidence in favor of the theory that Kethry and Jadrek were lifebonded is the way that Kethry immediately trusted Jadrek on a gut level and the fact that Jadrek's shyness was driving Kethry batty. I do think that Jadrek would've gone mad with grief had Kethry died in the fight with Raschar's Adept, but Kethry was not only a very stable personality herself, but she had the she'enedran bond with Tarma. I don't think Ylsa would've gone mad with grief, either, of course. IMO, the reason that most lifebonded pairs die together is the same reason why most Herald/Companion pairs die together: they're either both very old or they're in the same place at the same time and the same thing kills them both. The cases we've seen of one member of a lifebonded pair not being killed at the same time as the other have (with the exception of Kethry/Jadrek) left the unstable partner living. IMO, the stable partner could easily outlive the unstable partner, especially given other strong bonds, like the Companion bond or the she'enedran bond. Even Keren survived with the addition of a substitute third leg to stand on, and Keren, IMO, was at least as inherently unstable as Vanyel... -jenneke I *am* family. How could I not have family values? Only Boys Accepting Feminism Get Kissed Meaningfully -- Geoff Marcy The only unnatural sexual act is that which you cannot perform. -Alfred Kinsey broekman-+AT+-sparky.phast.umass.edu | http://www-astro.phast.umass.edu/gs/jenn.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Sep 1995 10:12:02 -0400 From: "Jennifer S. Broekman" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Grove-Born tangent Message-ID: <199509261412.KAA04266-+AT+-sparky.phast.umass.edu> Mat Timmerman wrote: >It may be that Quenten can see Gwena shining b/c he knows what a Guardian >Spirit is. It's always seemed to me that the Valdemaran mages are >pretty weak on other-planar creatures, except the Vrondi, which >someone mentions were discovered by a contemporary of Vanyel's (was it >Savil? It's been a long time since I've read MPromise - I really need The mention that the vrondi were discovered by a contemporary of Vanyel's is in the _Arrows_ trilogy. In _LHM_, it seems that the vrondi have been known and used for a long time, as an air elemental with the fortunate knack of detecting lies. Remember that Vanyel expected Herald Lores's mentor to have known that any Herald could use the first stage Truth Spell, and Herald Lores was considerably older than Vanyel was. If he should have learned about the vrondi while in training, then no contemporary of Vanyel's, even Savil (who was probably in training around the same time Lores was), could've been the first to find them. IMO, the comment in _Arrows_ is simply a reflection of the ignorance about magic that grew up between Vanyel's time and Talia's. -jenneke I *am* family. How could I not have family values? Only Boys Accepting Feminism Get Kissed Meaningfully -- Geoff Marcy The only unnatural sexual act is that which you cannot perform. -Alfred Kinsey broekman-+AT+-sparky.phast.umass.edu | http://www-astro.phast.umass.edu/gs/jenn.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Sep 1995 09:42:07 -0500 From: h-wilfehrt-+AT+-nwu.edu (Helen M. Wilfehrt) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Wacky Monarch's Own Theory Message-ID: <199509261442.AA148586526-+AT+-casbah.acns.nwu.edu> >Something interesting is that only Heralds and Hawkbrothers are able to see >vrondi, other mages can't. I always imagined that other mages just didn't pay attention to magic elementals who didn't seem all that important or powerful, of course depending upon their respective school. For example, eventhough Kethry doesn't mention them, it would seem likely she could have known about them. The Heralds/Herald-Mages and the Hawkbrothers almost seem to more likely use more subtle forms of Magic while other schools are more likely to use less subtle magics - it's seems in keeping that they would know of Vrondi. Likewise I see the White Winds mages as similar in philosophy to these other two. My 0.02 cents... Helen ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Sep 1995 09:49:03 -0500 From: h-wilfehrt-+AT+-nwu.edu (Helen M. Wilfehrt) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Wacky Monarch's Own Theory Message-ID: <199509261449.AA167326943-+AT+-casbah.acns.nwu.edu> >> >>Remember, Hulda didn't use magic when she was in Valdemar, so that the >>Vrondi wouldn't catch her. But Quenten and Kethry did and both of them >>got very uncomfortable. Kethry mentions it later. >> >> Anne Cross >> juniper-+AT+-fledge.watson.com >> http://fledge.watson.com/~juniper > > > Wasn't Hulda consistently using illusion to maintain a changed >appearance? They never specifically SAY that the disguise is magical, so it >could have been physical...or it might be that MAINTAINING magic that was >cast outside Valdemar won't attract vrondi (i.e., it is the ritual of >starting a spell that they notice, not the flow of magic). > > Dave Why would Hulda need a disguise if no one knew what she was supposed to look like? Remember, the one person who would have known what she looked like, Selenay's husband -whose name escapes me at the moment, was already dead when she showed up. In reference to the Vrondi tapping Vanyel on the shoulder in the Forest, it just occurred to me that maybe Vanyel was tapped because the other guy was practicing magic and not because Van was. -Helen ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Sep 1995 09:41:39 -0400 From: dstorrs-+AT+-crossover.com (David K. Storrs) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Wacky Monarch's Own Theory Message-ID: <199509261341.JAA13329-+AT+-prague.crossover.com> > What I want to know is why the vrondi never came near the >Companions, if they were using mage energy so much they were bleached >white at birth? I can think of two reasons, and you can decide which you like: 1) the vrondi recognize the Companions as fellow spirit creatures, and Van only asked them to look for human(oid) mages 2) what the Companions do with Mage energy is not exactly what a mage does with it...they metabolize it, rather than channeling it, or something like that. Just a thought. Let me know what you think? Dave ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Sep 1995 09:45:26 -0400 From: dstorrs-+AT+-crossover.com (David K. Storrs) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Wacky Monarch's Own Theory Message-ID: <199509261345.JAA13337-+AT+-prague.crossover.com> >Something interesting is that only Heralds and Hawkbrothers are able to see >vrondi, other mages can't. > > Interesting thought. Maybe because those are the only two groups which commonly have both Mage gifts and Mind gifts, and it requires both to see the vrondi? (I don't recall an instance of a Herald Mage without Mind gifts, but I certainly wouldn't swear to it.) Therefore, an outland mage who happened to have Mind gifts might also be able to see them. Dave ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Sep 1995 13:02:23 -0400 (EDT) From: Mat Timmerman To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Joe's Abilities (was RE: I'm back!) Message-ID: <01HVQDX8ENPC8ZFBYJ-+AT+-vaxc.hofstra.edu> From: "Jennifer S. Broekman" > Rosario Holsen-Baker wrote: > > Hey, here's a question for you. Joe had to have been made to see > >at least a few of the meetings. How come the Salamander didn't decide he > >was a juicy target and try to exploit the boy's powers or something? > > Joe doesn't have any powers, other than being a very well trained > martial artist and marksman. Any magic he learns is going to be of > the trained-will type, not the talent type. Nope, Joe _does_ have a psi ability (I almost called it a Gift - wrong series, huh :) ). Joe is a telepath (no, not a Mindspeaker :). Seeing as the only SERRA book I own is _Chrome Circle_ (libraries are a wonderful thing ), and it's at home, I can't look for quotes. By the way, why does everyone seem to be having trouble remembering the name of _Chrome Circle_ lately. The only one i remember at the moment is "Burning Circle" - whoever wrote that one (sorry, can't remember who) must _really_ want Di to tie in... :) Mat T. -------------------------------- | Mat Timmerman | | accmjt-+AT+-hofstra.edu | | mtimmerman1-+AT+-hofstra.edu | -------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Sep 1995 13:42:17 -0400 (EDT) From: Rosario Holsen-Baker To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: SR and Firesong (SPOILER) Message-ID: SPOILERS----SPOILERS----SPOILERS----SPOILERS----SPOILERS-----SPOILERS All right, I'm going to bite the bullet here and speculate on Firesong's unusual behavior. I think the causes are that he feels (and may be, I haven't finished Storm Rising yet) that he is losing An'desha, that he is becoming irrelevant, and that he is losing control. Because of this, he is trying to find ways to get back in control of his life. As far as I can tell, he is becoming more and more bitter about this, and, more importantly, he is looking to Ma'ar's ways and seeing them as possible. I feel this is definitly not good. Ma'ar was as close to evil as one can come, and I don't think you can imitate that without becoming like him. And with Firesong, that isn't good. I'd talk more, but I have to go to class, and I'm already wasting enough space. Questions and comments welcome, no flames please. --Jaguar-- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Sep 1995 13:43:27 -0400 (EDT) From: Adrienne York To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Wacky Monarch's Own Theory Message-ID: On Thu, 21 Sep 1995, Helen M. Wilfehrt wrote: (magic scissors: take Flight!!!) > I thought that the idea of linking the Vrondi was that they would check out > whoever was casting any sort of Magic and then if they weren't Herald Mages > to keep watching that individual until that person stopped but if that > person was a Herald, the Vrondi would just let them be. Maybe the Vrondi > "tapping him on the shoulder" was either this initial checking - which > doesn't make sense since Vanyel was using a Gift and not Magic to talk to > that guy in Haven - or else the Vrondi recognized Vanyel as it was just > after setting the spell and was saying hello. :-) Vanyel, IIRC was using his mage-gift to *boost* his Mindspeaking, drawing on the latent power in those spooky old woods. So he was using magic, and that's why the vrondi checked him. (magic scissors work again!!) > As to the role of Vrondi and the Web, as I previously mentioned, I thought (snip) > that their linkage to the Web also allowed the Heralds to call upon them in > casting the Truth Spell. As a result the Heralds could also cast this > Magic spell without having a Mage Gift themselves. I believe that the > Vrondi's linkage to the Web also gave them access to the Node Energy which > Vanyel tempted them with in the original casting in exchange for their > "vigilance" in helping to protect Valdemar from nasty minded Mages. Any Herald could cast the Truth Spell before. The vrondi had to get a signal to recognize Heralds, or at least Vanyel signalled them in the woods before they would go away. (the scissors are working out today) > Another inconsistency is that they showed up when Talia was having trouble > with her Gift, not Magic, while she and Kris were in Sorrows and was > indirectly threatening Kris's safety. That sense of being watched agrees > with the idea that it was the Vrondi but her sense that she was also being > threatened agrees more with Yfandes's being ready to thwack her as was > mentioned when the spirits of Tylendel and Vanyel spoke with Elspeth et al. I don't remember the Vrondi being involved with the episode during the blizzard at all. Yfandes and maybe Van or Stef was watching that, but I don't recall any small blue clouds involved in that escapade. The Spirits in the Woods were watching Talia because she was a Herald and seemed to be a lunatic, so they didn't know what to do with her. That's where that watched sense was. ;];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];] ;] Adrienne York-Minor ;] ;] "There is no 'One, True Way'" Valdemaran Law Codes ;] ;] ayork-+AT+-simons-rock.edu ;] ;];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];] ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Sep 1995 19:23:39 GMT From: PTJ-+AT+-badger.demon.co.uk (Philip Johnson) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Lifebonds Message-ID: <34769-+AT+-badger.demon.co.uk> In message mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk writes: > > I know that Selenay and Daren and supposed to be lifebonded, and > that one of the pair is supposed to be emotionally unstable, but I'm not > sure that the S/D pair should really apply....I tend to see the S/D > lifebonding as another Misty contradiction/tie-up-loose-ends kinda > thing....I know that S messed up with her first hubby, but she recovered > quite nicely after a while and D seems to be your ordinary average guy... > Do any of you really see either of them as emotionally unstable? > Selenay is *potentially* unstable be reson of the pressure on her a monarch. She has to take vital decisions with the responsibility entirely on her shoulders, and with no-one with whom she can completely break down when things get a bit much. Even with Talia, the realationship must always be the unequal one of monarch and subject. That's what monarchy is about. Hence the cliche of 'The loneliness of command'. Daren provides a true equal as her husband. Further, as a personality he is practically a blueprint of the ideal. As a member of a royal family he can appreciate the pressures she's under; yet he is entirely without ambition to rule himself. He is also able to take over many of the routine tasks and meeting with an authority which no-one else could wield. It also seems to me that Daren has a deep need to serve and feel himself useful. His original ambition was to serve his brother as Earl Marshall. Selenay provides hime with an even better opportunity to be useful. Philip -- Philip Johnson 'Never do for yourself what you can con an expert into doing for you' Naismith: 'On War' 'A rational government wouldn't allow him possession of a pocket-knife, let alone a space fleet.' Cordelia, Countess Vorkosigan: 'On Naismith' ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Sep 1995 14:47:58 -0700 From: harkerii-+AT+-ix.netcom.com (John Edwards ) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: MERCEDES-LACKEY digest 153 Message-ID: <199509262147.OAA15696-+AT+-ix7.ix.netcom.com> Mel, This is my second attempt to reach you via the list. Since we do not have an e-mail address to follow up on directly (and I seem to only have the old list processor addresses) This is the only way to do it. I need the info for subscribing and un-subscribing. Please send this to me directly. I have some people who are interested in joining the list, and I need to cut down my own mail. (nothing personal with those here, but I just don't have enough time to read all my e-mail any more...) Thanks. John -- =================================================== = I can picture in my mind a world without war, = = A world without hate. = = And I can picture us attacking that world = = because they'd never expect it. = = Jack Handey = =================================================== ------------------------------ End of MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 157 *********************************