MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 161 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re: Wacky Monarch's Own Theory by Rosario Holsen-Baker 2) Re: Older Chosen by "Scarlett E. Blizzard" 3) Re: Lifebonds by "Tarja Rainio" 4) Re: Grove-Born tangent by "Cecile S. Ueltschey" 5) Re: Lots of things. by "Cecile S. Ueltschey" 6) Re: Older Chosen by "Cecile S. Ueltschey" 7) Re: Storm Warning (God question) by "Cecile S. Ueltschey" 8) RE: Tylendal by c2mxpeas-+AT+-fre.fsu.umd.edu 9) Re: Inherited gifts (spoiler for Winds books) by EDooley489-+AT+-aol.com 10) Re: Lifebonds by gjuka-+AT+-cnw.com (Gjuka) 11) Re: Lifebonds by gjuka-+AT+-cnw.com (Gjuka) 12) Re: Older Chosen by S003YMS-+AT+-desire.wright.edu 13) Re: Storm Warning (God question) by S003YMS-+AT+-desire.wright.edu 14) Fantasy by "Aphrael" 15) Re: Lifebonds by Anne Cross 16) Re: Lifebonds by Mat Timmerman 17) Re: Storm Warning (God question) by wdjpej-+AT+-ix.netcom.com (William Jones ) 18) Re: Lots of things. by Ina Faye-Lund 19) Re: Storm Warning (God question) by Adrienne York 20) Re: Gods, Goddesses, etc. (WAS Re: Lots of things.) by Adrienne York 21) Re: Lifebonds by jhedge-+AT+-waterw.com (Jeanne Hedge) 22) Re: Lifebonds by Jean Morrill 23) Re: Fantasy by CODIORNE-+AT+-WELLESLEY.EDU 24) Re: Lots of things. by Ned 25) Re: Tylendal by Ned 26) Re: Lifebonds by Vivian Choh 27) Re: Storm Warning (God question) by "Helen M. Wilfehrt" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 29 Sep 1995 07:49:53 -0400 (EDT) From: Rosario Holsen-Baker To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Wacky Monarch's Own Theory Message-ID: On Fri, 22 Sep 1995 RLGilb-+AT+-aol.com wrote: > Something interesting is that only Heralds and Hawkbrothers are able to see > vrondi, other mages can't. > Ummm...they don't know where to look? Speculation: magic works on frequencies, sort of like radio. Remember Darkwind and the conversation about mindspeech? Maybe it works for magic too. If the vrondi are on another frequencey, anyone who was looking for them wouldn't see them. --Jaguar(who also doesn't have a nifty sign-off)-- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Sep 95 12:54:33 CDT (1054Z) From: "Scarlett E. Blizzard" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Older Chosen Message-ID: <9509291206.AA14944-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk> Jennie wrote: >The way I look at it is that if you are choosen as an adult you have to go >through classes, but I think that the classes that you have to take are only >ones that you have no experience in. Like Kero would not have to take classes >on warfare or stratagy. They would be redunant. The classes that the 'older' >choosen would have to take would be ones that they had no experience in. So t he >amount of time that it would take to get your whites would depend on the type >of experience you have. Sorry don't know anything about Teren's studies. >Jennie :) >>Maybe they clep courses *grin* :) * * Scarlett (blizzard-+AT+-wurbpmo.wuerzburg.army.mil * * " An old crest on a new wave " * * If I can be serial for a nanosecond, enough of the handshaking, * *let's jack in and process this system! -Enzio (reboot cartoon charecter) * ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Sep 1995 16:00:12 EET DST From: "Tarja Rainio" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Lifebonds Message-ID: <31DFA20B05-+AT+-katk.helsinki.fi> Jennifer wrote: >I do seem to remember that theory being mentioned in one of the Arrows >books. >If this is totally true though, how do you explain Mardic and Donni. There >was never any indication that either of them were anything but >emotionally stable, sensible people. Ah, but we don't know what they were like before their bonding. And also, we don't really see that much of them, most of the attention in LHM is on Ty and Van's bonding. Possible causes of instability could be her background as an apprentice thief (sorry, major black hole in my memory: can't which was which) - plenty of possibilities for emotional difficulties there. Also, IIRC, the other was from a farming family, he could have had difficulties as the "different one", a person who can sense magical energies. Look at how Tylendel was treated, and he was from a noble family who ought to know at least something of Gifts and their awakening. So, back to my original point: the bonding could have stabilised them somewhat like it did in the case of Keren. She was (at least in the surface) OK when she had a lifebonded. This surface stability could be true in Donni and Mardic's case, too. My $0.02 Tarja ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Sep 1995 08:39:14 -0500 (CDT) From: "Cecile S. Ueltschey" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Grove-Born tangent Message-ID: On Thu, 28 Sep 1995, Sandy Haas wrote: > > I think that the Heralds REALLY DON"T "get" what those Companions > REALLY ARE. It seems like there are plenty of instances where the > companions are taken for granted, discounted, I'm searching here for > the right phrase. But to spiritual people OUTSIDE of Valdamar, they > are almost revered, certainly more respected. I am thinking of the > way the Hawkbrothers treated them. They would never even TALK about > them without their presence, vs. some of the more careless way the > Heralds treat them. > i'm ducking cause i think i'm going to get flamed....does anyone ever > get iced?? its awful warm for almost october!! > Don't worry, I've got a fire extinguisher at the ready! Actually, I don't think you'll get flamed - haven't seen too many flames on this list, we seem to be fairly civilized [:-)]. I think you have a good point, familiarity breeds - in this case, not contempt, - but complacency! You don't always notice what's right under your nose. And, too, maybe the Companions WANT it that way? They and the Heralds would probably not be as effective if people - and Heralds - were constantly in awe of the Companions. After all, they must look like horses for a REASON. Now, what that reason is, other than camoflage - who knows? At least most Valdemarens know that they are something special. I think you'd have to be a mage or a priest/ess to recognize them, IF they weren't "cloaking" themselves (remember, Gwena "flared" for Quenten, then "dimmed" herself at his request. After that, she appeared "normal" even to his mage-sight.) Cecile (who still doesn't know how to make a sig, although she has a quote picked out!) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Sep 1995 08:52:37 -0500 (CDT) From: "Cecile S. Ueltschey" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Lots of things. Message-ID: On Fri, 22 Sep 1995, Stephanie Wukovitz wrote: > Cecile mentioned wondering what the religion of the Holderkin is > and whether it might be some variant on Vkandis-worship. I recall > a passive, submissive goddess. I don't recall holderkin religion > being mentioned many other places except for the beginning of > Arrows of the Queen, and then just the stuff about Talia being > horrified about being in that goddess' service ("forbidden speech, > forbidden life" or something like that). So they might have > split off from Sunlord religion while the Karsites still worshipped > a goddess as well Thanks, Stephanie! I had forgotten Talia's "choice" of marriage or Temple-service. Perhaps the Holderkin split at the time of the goddess' "disappearance" - maybe the vows of silence, etc. reflect the growing repression and eventual removal of Vkandis' consort from the State religion. Wouldn't that make some interesting stories - set them in Karse, from a Karsite perspective....oh Misty!!! Cecile ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Sep 1995 09:05:02 -0500 (CDT) From: "Cecile S. Ueltschey" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Older Chosen Message-ID: On Mon, 25 Sep 1995, Ina Faye-Lund wrote: > My point: Kero has some teaching from Tarma, and more from the > Skybolts. Much of what is taught, she knows. Even etiquette, > remember her background. She can read, and most important of all; why > is it that the Heralds-in-Training need the courses? Mostly, I think, > to teach them about reality. Most of what is taught, that we hear > about, is why things are as they are, how people will react to them, > and stuff like that. > > Remember, Kero _knows_ about people. Kero _knows_ what war is about. > She knows a lot of what the Heralds learn. She wouldn't _need_ that > much training. Also, much of the time is spent learning to use the > Gifts. Kero _has_ used it for some time, she _knows_ what it is all > about, even if she won't feel comfortable with it. > > She wouldn't need the circuit-riding, since she knows what she can be > taught already, perhaps except from being a Herald. But, also, the > Heralds _need_ her where she is. All of which point, at least to me, to the reason Kero was Chosen where and when she was. Her skills were somewhat unique in Valdemar, also she's the one who reminded Rethwellan of their obligation to Valdemar, plus the fact that she brought an entire troop of trained fighters (and eventually, mages) with her. She also had the mindspeaking Gift, so she "qualified" as a Herald. Heralds are Chosen where and when they are needed. Remember the tag about the Gifts "showing up just before they are needed"? Maybe the "older Chosen" are selected because their SKILLs are needed as much or more than their Gift? Cecile ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Sep 1995 09:17:31 -0500 (CDT) From: "Cecile S. Ueltschey" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Storm Warning (God question) Message-ID: On Fri, 29 Sep 1995, Jennifer S. Broekman wrote: > wdjpej-+AT+-ix.netcom.com wrote: > > Both have their own priesthood, and a distiction > >between the mages and the priests of the clergy (Kal'endral= Priest; > >Shaman= Mage).. > > I don't think all Shaman are mages, even if all MageGifted Shin'a'in > are shaman. Also, note that the Star-Eyed is also the Goddess of the > Tayledras, and the Kaled'a'in, and they don't make the distinction > you're pointing to. Also, Kal'endral aren't really priests in the > usual sense. Shaman perform all of the tasks of ministering to the > people and performing rituals and so on. Kal'enedral have a stronger > link to a particular aspect of the Star-Eyed than the average > Shin'a'in, but they aren't priests in any other sense. Back when the Kaled'a'in split to form the Shin'a'in and Tayledras, didn't all the mages/magic-oriented clans go off to become the Tayledras and the non-magic-oriented clans go off to become the Shin'a'in. It was the non-mage/magic-oriented clans that "got the job" of guarding the Plains, where there was residual magics and buried magical artifacts, BECAUSE they did not use magic. Obviously, mage-gift did show up occasionally, but they usually had to leave the clan (as in An'desha's case). Some probably did become shaman, but that doesn't mean they USED their magic. Cecile ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Sep 1995 10:36:52 EDT From: c2mxpeas-+AT+-fre.fsu.umd.edu To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: RE: Tylendal Message-ID: <009971DF.F43FD4C0.194-+AT+-fre.fsu.umd.edu> I'm rather a newbie here, so feel free to flame... David, speaking in reference to the bond between Gala and Tylendal said... "I have to wonder if his bond to Gala was not as strong as everyone thought. The simple fact that he could hide the full extent of the bond between him and Staven I think effectively points this out." IMHO, I seem to remember that in Arrow's Flight, Rolan was almost fiercely protective of Talia, to the point where even thought he knew that she was loosing control, he never said a word. (I can't remember exactly where it is... my books are 150 miles away... ) I just thought that upon seeing how Talia was protected by Rolan, it's possible that the Companions are just as fiercely loyal to their Chosen, willing to protect all their secrets for them... Like I said... feel free to flame. Brenda Ramirez ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Sep 1995 20:55:09 -0400 From: EDooley489-+AT+-aol.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Inherited gifts (spoiler for Winds books) Message-ID: <950927205508_110960179-+AT+-mail02.mail.aol.com> The question was asked where did Talia get her empathy from in the discussion about inherited gifts. Just because its inherited doesn't mean it has to be noticable. It could have been weaker in her relatives. When people are different they try to hide things not discuss them with everyone! Eric ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Sep 1995 08:40:22 -0800 From: gjuka-+AT+-cnw.com (Gjuka) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Lifebonds Message-ID: <9509291531.AA24755-+AT+-baker> >Agreed. Speaking of SR and lifebonds, in SR there's a bit that hinges >on the idea that there's a lifebond out there for everyone, if only >you could live long enough/meet enough people/etc. Does anyone else >think this is unlikely to be true? Personally, I don't think the >rarity of lifebonds comes simply from some random number generator >that spits out when and where you and your lifebonded are going to be >born and typically results in there being a century or a continent >between you... > >-jenneke I've always thought/been told that lifebonds happen because people NEED them in order to funtion more normally and balanced. Kinda like if you arn't able to balance yourself then here's your counterweight and support. It seems like if you have a life bonded, then youfind it. but not everyone needs it. After all, what's wrong with ordinary love? If you were already in a loving relationship, would you really want a lifebonded person to show up? Even in Valdemar people admit that lifebonds are terribly over romanticised. Lifebonds arn't nessiccerity something to be wished for. They are neither good or bad, just nessiccary. Colette gjuka-+AT+-cnw.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Sep 1995 09:18:58 -0800 From: gjuka-+AT+-cnw.com (Gjuka) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Lifebonds Message-ID: <9509291609.AA25162-+AT+-baker> QUOTE FOR THE DAY!!!!!!!(ie I finally found it!) >From Queen's Own Vol. V #7 April 92 To those of you who asked about the romantic status of charecters in By The Sword, Misty says "Everyone in BTS was lifebonded????? Gee, I never noticed that , and I thought I was the author!...The only TRULY lifebonded couple in BTS was...(drumroll)...Daren and Selenay. Everyone else was either very strong love or someone was deluding him/herself. "Here is one absolutely ironclad way to tell if it is a lifebond. Once the pairing is confirmed and all teh dust settles,NEITHER OF THE TWO CAN REMAIN ANGRY WITH THE OTHER FOR MORE THAN THREE HOURS. This means real true forgiveness, not a grudging,'well, all right, grumble, grumble' and stowing the grievance away to bring up during the next arguement. For instance, Van and Stef--if they had NOT been lifebonded, Van would have blown Stef away with everyone in that old fortifacation because he got in the way. It is something that goes as deep as instinct. It is dangerous, since lifebonded commit suicide more often than not when left alone. There may be the hand of the Deities in creating lifebonds, since lifebonded couples tend to be people who NEED to be together FOR THE GOOD OF THOSE AROUND THEM.They create a partnership and stability that stablizes things for OTHERS, not just themselves. Lifebonding is a fictional concept I created for Velgarth, as a mechanism for creating pairs that were larger than life.IS there such a thing as real life lifebonding? Well if there is, I've never seen it. I think honest love id quite good enough for this universe: there is such a shortage of THAT around here that it's almost as rare as Lifebonding in Velgarth." more when I find it... Colette gjuka-+AT+-cnw.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Sep 1995 13:27:47 -0500 (EST) From: S003YMS-+AT+-desire.wright.edu To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Older Chosen Message-ID: <01HVULVRSTOI8ZIPEU-+AT+-desire.wright.edu> also on Storm Warning there is a herald whose wife died in childbirth (i think it was before he was chosen) so he brought the girl to haven . She is one of the blues and no she is not a noble ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Sep 1995 13:31:54 -0500 (EST) From: S003YMS-+AT+-desire.wright.edu To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Storm Warning (God question) Message-ID: <01HVUM29WOD48ZIPEU-+AT+-desire.wright.edu> anyone else notice that Vkandis consort and the star eyed have the same name????I think it varies by 1 letter but i believe this is just the shin'a'in spelling ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Sep 1995 13:40:51 EST From: "Aphrael" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk, SFnF-Writers-+AT+-seidel.ncsa.uiuc.edu Subject: Fantasy Message-ID: Hi everybody! This is a rare, one-time-only thing I'm doing, posting to both lists. As some of you may know, I am a graduate student in English at St. Bonaventure University. Next semester, I would like to design my own course in the Fantasy genre, the subject I would like to concentrate in when I begin my PhD work. My problem lies mainly in finding work on the literary theory and criticism of Fantasy. I'm currently reading _The Aesthetics of Fantasy Literature and Art_, edited by Roger C. Schlobin. Can any of you reccomend anything? And suggestion for the course in general? Anyone out there who has Marion Zimmer Bradley's Sword & Sorceress I and II, if you could get in touch with me, I would really appreciate it. I'm using the introductory essays Mrs. Bradley writes at the start of her anthologies in my research, and I anticipate problems finding those first two volumes. I have III (Misty-list people: back off! It's mine! :), and IV on are still in stores, I believe. Thanks in advance for any help anybody out there can give me. Lyn Belzer Lyn Belzer * P.O. Box 234 St. Bonaventure, NY 14778 * 716/379-3034 ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* I feel ready for a commitment. Thank God it requires two signitures in this state. -slightly modified line from _Dave's World_, 9/20/95 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Sep 1995 15:05:20 -0400 (EDT) From: Anne Cross To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Lifebonds Message-ID: On Fri, 29 Sep 1995, Gjuka wrote: > >From Queen's Own Vol. V #7 April 92 > > To those of you who asked about the romantic status of charecters in By The > Sword, Misty says "Everyone in BTS was lifebonded????? Gee, I never noticed > that , and I thought I was the author!...The only TRULY lifebonded couple > in BTS was...(drumroll)...Daren and Selenay. Everyone else was either very > strong love or someone was deluding him/herself. Hurrah! I couldn't make myself believe that Kethry or Kero could go and get themselves Lifebonded. They're too self-sufficient for that. (And they're too strong for it too, I think. I'm still rather annoyed at Selenay for Lifebonding -- she didn't need it either.) ;) Fighting off a cold with fists and feet... Anne juniper-+AT+-fledge.watson.org ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Sep 1995 15:24:13 -0400 (EDT) From: Mat Timmerman To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Lifebonds Message-ID: <01HVUPTDRMK28ZFTRU-+AT+-vaxc.hofstra.edu> From: Gjuka > QUOTE FOR THE DAY!!!!!!!(ie I finally found it!) > > >From Queen's Own Vol. V #7 April 92 > > To those of you who asked about the romantic status of charecters in By The > Sword, Misty says "Everyone in BTS was lifebonded????? Gee, I never noticed > that , and I thought I was the author!...The only TRULY lifebonded couple > in BTS was...(drumroll)...Daren and Selenay. Everyone else was either very > strong love or someone was deluding him/herself. [rest of quote snipped] > > Colette Hey, this quote means that our speculation was wrong! Kero and Eldan *aren't* lifebonded! How they could Mindspeak over suck a distance without it, I don't know. I don't know that "very strong love" would be able to do that. Well, it's straight from Misty's mouth (through QO and Colette first of course, though :) ), so it has to be fact. Mat T. -------------------------------- | Mat Timmerman | | accmjt-+AT+-hofstra.edu | | mtimmerman1-+AT+-hofstra.edu | -------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Sep 1995 12:58:26 -0700 From: wdjpej-+AT+-ix.netcom.com (William Jones ) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Storm Warning (God question) Message-ID: <199509291958.MAA06338-+AT+-ix6.ix.netcom.com> You wrote: > >wdjpej-+AT+-ix.netcom.com wrote: >>Has anyone noted the parallels between the Shin'a'in Star-Eyed and the >>Karsite Sunlord? They are equal and opposite _pairs_ (sun=day >>star=night).... > >This parallel can also be drawn between the Christian Trinity and the >Triple Goddess, just fyi. Such parallels don't necessarily imply an >innate relationship between the deities. It could just be that human >beings perceive things better this way... > >> Both have their own priesthood, and a distiction >>between the mages and the priests of the clergy (Kal'endral= Priest; >>Shaman= Mage).. > >I don't think all Shaman are mages, even if all MageGifted Shin'a'in >are shaman. Also, note that the Star-Eyed is also the Goddess of the >Tayledras, and the Kaled'a'in, and they don't make the distinction >you're pointing to. Also, Kal'endral aren't really priests in the >usual sense. Shaman perform all of the tasks of ministering to the >people and performing rituals and so on. Kal'enedral have a stronger >link to a particular aspect of the Star-Eyed than the average >Shin'a'in, but they aren't priests in any other sense. > >>I think this is a lil too convenient to overlook, hmm? > >I think it's at least as likely to be caused by the fact that there >are only so many ways of dividing the universe that seem to make sense >to the human mind that you're bound to get overlaps than any real >relationship between the deities, beyond "all the gods are one God and >all the goddesses one Goddess." > >-jenneke Just to add a little more... Take a look at the relationships in O2 and Iftel... In O2 the Star-Eyed tell Kethry that she is the same as her own "windborn Lady", this proves that the Shin'a'in Goddess has more than one people... Astera is the diety of Elspeth and Dirk, (see Arrows Fall) Astera=star=star-eyed... Kero's goddess had three aspects, a wild one, a maiden, and an old lady (which was incidently designated by the snowflake, and the Star-Eyed's crone is of the north wind...) and Need refers to a male and female twian.. Possibly when Vikandis and the Star-Eyed were together? Another thing to note: In Storm Warning Karal is looking thru the old texts for Firecats... He mentions briefly a female counterpart of Vikandis.. Named Kalanel... If you check the appendix at the end of O2 Kel'enel is the name of the Warrior aspect of the Star-Eyed... I'm pretty much conviced that there are only two dieties in Velgarth.. But I know there is proof somewhere that I am missing... Who knows, mabey Misty will see fit to clear things up for us... - Shadow-Lover ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Sep 1995 21:06:48 +0100 From: Ina Faye-Lund To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Lots of things. Message-ID: <199509292006.17952.gjalp.ifi.uio.no-+AT+-ifi.uio.no> I was wondering...has anybody else noticed, while the Holderkin has certain strict rules about women, the one who represents them in the Council when Taila becomes a Herald, is female. Anybody got any thoughts? IFL ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Sep 1995 16:26:04 -0400 (EDT) From: Adrienne York To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Storm Warning (God question) Message-ID: On Fri, 29 Sep 1995, Jennifer S. Broekman wrote: > people and performing rituals and so on. Kal'enedral have a stronger > link to a particular aspect of the Star-Eyed than the average > Shin'a'in, but they aren't priests in any other sense. Tell that to Tarma. Check out book 1 of V&H. When Tarma is talking to a priest just before she encounters Thalkarsh (sp?), the demon, again, and Misty says something to the effect of: Kethry was enjoying watching this often-hidden side of Tarma, for most people didn't know that as well as being a fully trained warrior, she was also a priest. I don't have the book, so I can't look up the exact quote. But I definitely remember that. ;];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];] ;] Adrienne York-Minor ;] ;] "There is no 'One, True Way'" Valdemaran Law Codes ;] ;] ayork-+AT+-simons-rock.edu ;] ;];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];] ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Sep 1995 16:29:30 -0400 (EDT) From: Adrienne York To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Gods, Goddesses, etc. (WAS Re: Lots of things.) Message-ID: On Fri, 29 Sep 1995, Gjuka wrote: > > >I don't really want to get into a ("real life") religious beliefs > >argument or, Havens forbid, a flame war (everyone has a right to their > >own beliefs, what follows is purely in an academic vein), but in my > >experience with the > >literature and archeology of the Middle East, most of the "neighboring > >tribes" were polytheistic and patriarchal. Abram and his father Terah > >were from the _city_ of Ur of the Chaldees which had several cults of a > >pantheon of gods and goddesses, with major and minor temples of the State > >religion. Most of the solely goddess-centered religions that I know of > >were from farther north (present day Turkey, the Caucasus, etc.). Also, > >many of the references in Genesis to "other religions" were primarily to > >the worship of Baal (who was male). Interestingly enough, many of the > >pagan religions in the area have, as part of their creation myth, the > >slaying of a monster by a hero to create the earth. Usually this > >god-hero is male, and the earth-monster is female. It would be > >interesting to discover what the preceeding people's religions were. But > >this would definately be pre-history AND predate many of the Bible > >stories by several centuries. > > > >Sorry to get off thread, here. I don't get much chance to discuss things > >like that anymore! > > > >Bright the day (?) > > > >Cecile > > > just couldnt resist recomending a book. It has lots of info about the > overthrow of goddess religions by patriarichal ones and transformations of > female dieties into male ones. it also talks about god/heros that either > rape or slay female gods, who are then either subservient to the god or, > obviously, dead. it's called "when god was a woman" by merlin stone. > > sorry to wander so far, > > colette I also know a book, which you might not want to read straight through, but which contains lots of interesting entries. It's "The Women's Encyclopedia of Myths & Secrets" and I completely forget the author's name. It's very interesting, though. ;];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];] ;] Adrienne York-Minor ;] ;] "There is no 'One, True Way'" Valdemaran Law Codes ;] ;] ayork-+AT+-simons-rock.edu ;] ;];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];] ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Sep 1995 17:10:20 -0400 From: jhedge-+AT+-waterw.com (Jeanne Hedge) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Lifebonds Message-ID: <9509292110.AA00792-+AT+-water.waterw.com> >QUOTE FOR THE DAY!!!!!!!(ie I finally found it!) > >>From Queen's Own Vol. V #7 April 92 > >To those of you who asked about the romantic status of charecters in By The >Sword, Misty says "Everyone in BTS was lifebonded????? Gee, I never noticed >that , and I thought I was the author!...The only TRULY lifebonded couple >in BTS was...(drumroll)...Daren and Selenay. Everyone else was either very >strong love or someone was deluding him/herself. What about the two Heralds that greeted Kero and her Company when they got close to Haven? I think their names were Talia and Dirk? ;-p Jeanne Hedge jhedge-+AT+-water.waterw.com 75512.1214-+AT+-compuserve.com ================================================================ "Water, water everywhere, nor any drop to drink..." --Samuel Taylor Coleridge, 'The Rime of the Ancient Mariner' ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Sep 1995 14:50:22 -0700 From: Jean Morrill To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Lifebonds Message-ID: <199509292150.OAA00944-+AT+-cataract.hwr.arizona.edu> > they're too strong for it too, I think. I'm still rather annoyed at > Selenay for Lifebonding -- she didn't need it either.) I always thought (no proof though) that the Selenay-Daren lifebond was encouraged/influenced by the Companions, despite their usual non-interference policy. Think of the way Jasan practically dragged/carried D to S during the battle. I don't know if Selenay could have married another Rethwellan prince without a very public acknowledgement of the bond, considering how bad/unpopular the first one had been. The bond is probably as much for the people of Valdemar as Daren or Selenay, IMO. Jean ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Sep 1995 18:08:33 -0500 (EST) From: CODIORNE-+AT+-WELLESLEY.EDU To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Fantasy Message-ID: <01HVUVOV6HQA8WWSW2-+AT+-WELLESLEY.EDU> May I suggest (if you haven't read it already) Bruno Bettleheim's _The Meaning of Enchantment_ (or some such, I'm blanking on the exact title here...)? Goes into depth about the Freudian depths of faerie tales, and we all know how fantasy is supposed to be based on same... Thia, hoping she's being helpful ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Sep 1995 19:24:42 -0400 (EDT) From: Ned To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Lots of things. Message-ID: On Fri, 29 Sep 1995, Ina Faye-Lund wrote: > > I was wondering...has anybody else noticed, while the Holderkin has > certain strict rules about women, the one who represents them in the > Council when Taila becomes a Herald, is female. Anybody got any > thoughts? > Sure: she wasn't Holderkin. I presume that you are refering to Lady Wyrist, Speaker for the East (or whatever the title is). She's the one who says "It's my Border the Karsites come rampaging over whenever they choose" (AFall p.54). Although she happens to speak for the portion of Valdemar that the Holderkin live in, that does not indicate that she is Holderkin. If you consider that 1) No Holderkin woman would be known as "Lady" (just like I doubt that any Holderkin man is a "Lord") 2) the Holderkin attitude towards Valdemar makes it unlikely that they would have ANY offical contact with Haven (all that immorality in the capitol, you know) and 3) if they DID have contact with the government in Haven, their attitudes toward women makes the possibility of having a woman in authority vanishingly small. So, my guess that if the Holderkin looked past their own walls long enough to even notice who represented them in the council, they would probably do a good job of ignoring the entire situation, or using this as an example of how they are being slighted by Valdemar by their representation. Of course, I strongly suspect that Lady Wyrist has a similarly low opinion of her charges on the border. Zhai'helleva Ned Ned Adams aka S. Baldrick Sometimes it is better to light a sbaldric-+AT+-roanoke.infi.net flamethrower than to curse the darkness (540) 890-0212 (T. Pratchett) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Sep 1995 20:08:06 -0400 (EDT) From: Ned To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Tylendal Message-ID: On Mon, 25 Sep 1995, MR DAVID W BAHRKE wrote: > Has anyone else noticed that Tylendal states on page 143 in Magic's > Pawn that he had all his channels blasted open and that is the reason > for his extraordinary number of gifts? I find this fact pretty > interesting when you take into account what happened to Vanyel. I > think that the reason Vanyel's channels got blasted open was that he > had to take 'Lendal's place in the structure of things. I think I know what you are talking about: it is on p. 140 in my printing: "Something about what was going on, something about the link I had with Staven, triggered all my potential Gifts-explosively." I take it that this is the line you are refering to. I read it differently: I thought that the term "explosively" refered to the result of having his potential Gifts activated. The line before that reads "It felt like being in the middle of a lightning storm, and from the wreck I made of my room, that's exactly what I might have created"; so "explosively" might have refered to the quite literal explosion that occured in the room. I guess that it is just that I don't see Van as a "replacement" for 'Lendel. It seems too much like the Gods are "playing games" with the lives of mortals. OK, I admit, I don't like the idea of any force, mortal or non, dictating the lives of any characters. I prefer the concept that these people are human: struggling through their troubles. OK, I've probably made no sense whatsoever here. It's been a long day. If this thread continues, I'll try to clarify this a bit better > > The other object of interest that I wanted to comment on was the > relationship between Tylendal and Gala. Tylendal specifically states > that the relationship between him and Gala was one of inferior to > superior. Does this strike anyone as unusual? I certainly do! I > have to wander if his bond to Gala was not as strong as everyone > thought. The simple fact that he could hide the full extent of the > bond between him and Staven I think effectively points this out. > Hey, David! I agree with you on this one! First, a relationship which is based on that sort of disparity seems to me to be bound for serious trouble. I see the Herald/Companion bond to be closer than most marriages and the sheer number of successful, long-term Herald/Companion bonds is an indication that they are usually on an equal level. As for your second point: not only is the fact that he could hide his bond with his brother points out the weakness of his bond with Gala, but that he even wanted to in the first place! One example from real life that illustrates this is if you were in a serious relationship with your SO, and you also had a very good friend of the opposite sex, would you try to hide this relationship from your SO? Wouldn't trying to hide this show that you possibly aren't as committed to your SO as you thought? > Well what do you all think? I know that Ned will have comments to > make( yes I can give page numbers, hehehehe-evil laugh ). Is were I > am supposed to put on my flame/dart proof suit? > Gee, David, you would think that I object to your ideas just because they belong to you Seriously, though, I will argue obscure points of books with anyone. Right, Aphrael? OK, so I did introduce her to a few authors mainly to have someone to discuss my theories with ... To show that there are no hard feelings, David, if you are ever in Roanoke, VA, I'll treat you to lunch. Although, considering my bank balance, it will probably at McDonaldsw, but.... Zhai'helleva Ned > Ned Adams aka S. Baldrick Sometimes it is better to light a sbaldric-+AT+-roanoke.infi.net flamethrower than to curse the darkness (540) 890-0212 (T. Pratchett) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Sep 1995 20:11:17 -0400 (EDT) From: Vivian Choh To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Lifebonds Message-ID: On Fri, 29 Sep 1995, Mat Timmerman wrote: [quote referred to was posted by Colette re: lifebonding] > Hey, this quote means that our speculation was wrong! Kero and Eldan > *aren't* lifebonded! How they could Mindspeak over suck a distance Hey! Speak for yourself!! **I** said that K/E were not lifebonded > without it, I don't know. I don't know that "very strong love" would > be able to do that. Well, it's straight from Misty's mouth (through Actually (being serious now), I thought that point was a good oif it weren't for Misty's quote, I would have (and had) agreed that K&E WERE lifebonded... Gosh, always picking the wrong side of the fence, eh? Vivian Choh bi189-+AT+-torfree.net v.choh-+AT+-utoronto.ca "I am all that I claim to be. I simply have not claimed all that I am." - M. Lackey, "Oathbreakers" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Sep 1995 10:20:50 -0500 From: "Helen M. Wilfehrt" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Storm Warning (God question) Message-ID: <199509300318.AA174661113-+AT+-casbah.acns.nwu.edu> >On Fri, 29 Sep 1995, Jennifer S. Broekman wrote: > >> people and performing rituals and so on. Kal'enedral have a stronger >> link to a particular aspect of the Star-Eyed than the average >> Shin'a'in, but they aren't priests in any other sense. > >Tell that to Tarma. Check out book 1 of V&H. When Tarma is talking to >a priest just before she encounters Thalkarsh (sp?), the demon, again, >and Misty says something to the effect of: Kethry was enjoying watching >this often-hidden side of Tarma, for most people didn't know that as well >as being a fully trained warrior, she was also a priest. I don't have >the book, so I can't look up the exact quote. But I definitely remember >that. > Another reference to this is when Tarma calls upon the Star-Eyed to heal Kethry. It was her right as a priest to call upon the Star-Eyed asking for a life. Since most of what we see of the Kal'enedral is Tarma, and it's directly sayed that Tarma doesn't take advantage of the benefits of the priest aspects of being Sword-Sworn, it's hard to classify the entire group based upon one individual. Helen h-wilfehrt-+AT+-nwu.edu ------------------------------ End of MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 161 *********************************