MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 165 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re: Storm Warning (God question) by jc-+AT+-crosfield.co.uk (Jerry Cullingford) 2) Re: Storm Warning (God question) by "Scarlett E. Blizzard" 3) Re: Lifebonds by "Scarlett E. Blizzard" 4) Re: Huff by "Tarja Rainio" 5) Re: Lifebonds by "Tarja Rainio" 6) Re: Holderkin by Catherine Osborne 7) Re: Storm Warning (God question) by "Jennifer S. Broekman" 8) Re: Bad News for Diana Tregarde fans by "Jennifer S. Broekman" 9) Re: Storm Warning (God question) by gjuka-+AT+-cnw.com (Gjuka) 10) Re: Storm Warning (God question) by h-wilfehrt-+AT+-nwu.edu (Helen M. Wilfehrt) 11) Re: Lots of things. by h-wilfehrt-+AT+-nwu.edu (Helen M. Wilfehrt) 12) Re: Lifebonds by h-wilfehrt-+AT+-nwu.edu (Helen M. Wilfehrt) 13) Re: Storm Warning (God question) by h-wilfehrt-+AT+-nwu.edu (Helen M. Wilfehrt) 14) Re: Choosing Kero by h-wilfehrt-+AT+-nwu.edu (Helen M. Wilfehrt) 15) Re: Bad News for Diana Tregarde fans by dstorrs-+AT+-crossover.com (David K. Storrs) 16) Re: Holderkin by Mat Timmerman 17) Re: Storm Warning (God question) by Mat Timmerman 18) Firesong/Ma'ar? (SR SPOILERS) by Rosario Holsen-Baker 19) Re: Storm Warning (God question) by Adrienne York 20) Meetings and Musings via IRC (fwd) by Adrienne York 21) Re: Storm Warning (God question) by wdjpej-+AT+-ix.netcom.com (William Jones ) 22) Re: birthday cake by lwilbur-+AT+-pacificnet.net ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 3 Oct 1995 08:34:31 +0000 (GMT) From: jc-+AT+-crosfield.co.uk (Jerry Cullingford) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Storm Warning (God question) Message-ID: <9510030834.AA14209-+AT+-crosfield.co.uk> > IMO, there are two main bits to being a priest. One is having a link > to a deity, which can be as strong as Tarma's or as weak as Karal > thinks his is. The other part, which doesn't require the first, is to > *function* as a priest in one's everyday life. On the other hand, we never get to see much of Tarma around other Shin'a'in. Without a congregation, maybe there's been no need for Tarma to perform any standard public priestly functions. We've got no real normal examples to go by, only Tarma's claim that she could claim priestly asspects if she wanted to. As far as personal priestly functions go, I'd have thought the meditation and training sessions should count :-). -- _|_ / | Jerry Cullingford jc-+AT+-crosfield.co.uk (Work) \_|_ jc-+AT+-selune.demon.co.uk (Home) \__/ Hemel Hempstead, UK jerry-+AT+-shell.portal.com (alternate) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Oct 95 10:03:28 CDT (0803Z) From: "Scarlett E. Blizzard" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Storm Warning (God question) Message-ID: <9510030912.AA10625-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk> *****************diety snippage ******************************* >*Mage Storms Spoiler Alert* > > >If there are only two, and Vkandis and the Star-Eyed are on the same >side (and there's pretty hard evidence of it), why would someone as >knowledgeable as Ulrich think that there might be a deity on the >Empire's side who would go head-to-head with Vkandis if Vkandis >started throwing ligtening bolts around? > >-jenneke >>>>>>>I have not finished SW yet, but I just finished reading the section where the council was meeting and Kero made her report about the situation in Hardorn... Someone said that the Empires "God" was the Empirer(sp), which wasn't a real "God", so Vkandis might throw some lightening bolts in that scenario, but the impression I got was that he would hesitate to intervene in such a direct manner if another "Diety/God/Goddess" was involved.....I might have that backwards, but I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong :) Notice my sig is exactly 4 lines now!!!!! * Scarlett (blizzard-+AT+-wurbpmo.wuerzburg.army.mil * * " An old crest on a new wave " * * If I can be serial for a nanosecond, enough of the handshaking, * *let's jack in and process this system! -Enzio (reboot cartoon charecter) * ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Oct 95 10:32:06 CDT (0832Z) From: "Scarlett E. Blizzard" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Lifebonds Message-ID: <9510030944.AA10873-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk> > >On Mon, 2 Oct 1995, Sanna Koulu wrote: > >> Just a thought: are there any powerful, evil mages who are lifebonded? >> It seems like they are definitely in need of someone sane to lean on. >> Does lifebonding have anything to do with being a _good_ person? >> It is stated that Heralds are more often bonded than normal people - >> is that _just_ because they're Gifted? > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>snippage from Crysanthia (sp?) >I don't believe that there were any mentioning of lifebonded evil mages. >There are mentions of evil mages courting, but never lifebonding. > >>>>>>>>I don't believe evil mages are capable of falling in love-- much less-- getting lifebonded. They are entirely too suspicious, narcisstic and selfish... jmho.. * Scarlett (blizzard-+AT+-wurbpmo.wuerzburg.army.mil * * " An old crest on a new wave " * * If I can be serial for a nanosecond, enough of the handshaking, * *let's jack in and process this system! -Enzio (reboot cartoon charecter) * ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Oct 1995 14:18:53 EET DST From: "Tarja Rainio" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Huff Message-ID: <19B22B601B-+AT+-katk.helsinki.fi> Vivian Choh wrote: > The books are: >Blood Price >Blood Trail >Blood (uh-oh - drawing a blank, lent it out. Somebody help me out!) >and Blood Pact > > Sorry about the third title. Hopefully someone else will post >the correct title? The third book is Blood Lines. And I like both series about as much. The Blood series is, however, more satisfying, because each book is complete in itself and does not leave you waiting for a sequel (like Jinx High did). Tarja ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Oct 1995 14:28:42 EET DST From: "Tarja Rainio" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Lifebonds Message-ID: <19DC762B04-+AT+-katk.helsinki.fi> On Mon, 2 Oct 1995 16:13:58 +0100 Ina Faye-Lund wrote: >What about this: They wouldn't be able to mindspeak over that >distance, usually. But remember, mostly, Kero was asleep when she >"spoke" with Eldan. Trance enhances the Gifts, doesn't it? So, if >Eldan entered a trance while Kero was asleep, he might be able to >reach her. I don't think they would have been able to communicate >with ordinary Mindspeak, otherwise. But that would have had to be an involuntary trance, because when they met again and Kero talked about something that she had learned in one of the dreams, Eldan, too, was surprised to discover that the dreams had been real. Another possible solution is that the dreaming (too much Sandman =)) is a place where the real life limits can be broken down and faraway places and persons can be reached much more easily than in the waking world. We have examples of the strange things that can happen in dreams in several books: Ylsa coming to Talia after her death, Van talking to Stef, etc. This would prove that strange things are possible in dreams... ;) Tarja ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Oct 1995 07:57:56 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine Osborne To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Holderkin Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Oct 1995, Croaker wrote: > Just a point to make: They were still Holderkin, still hyper-insular, > etc, in Vanyel's time. He mentions them when he's coming off the > Karsite border in the second book, I think. Yes, only the border has changed since Vanyel's time. If you look at the maps, on the Talia end Sweetsprings is in Valdemar; in Vanyel's maps, its in Karse. I think the Holderkin didn't move; the *border* moved, and so they were now within Valdemar. I\/ Catherine Osborne "I will not go down to I\/ Sundancer posterity talking bad I cosborne-+AT+-sidwell.edu grammar." I http://www.sidwell.edu/~cosborne/ --Disraeli ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Oct 1995 10:49:06 -0400 From: "Jennifer S. Broekman" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Storm Warning (God question) Message-ID: <199510031449.KAA10909-+AT+-sparky.phast.umass.edu> Catherine Osborne wrote: >I was under the impression that the Swordsworn in midnight blue (the ones >who work at the temple in Kata'shin'a'in, Querna, etc.) were the >particularly "priestly" arm of the Kal'endral, but all Swordsworn were >priest(esse)s by virtue of their direct and strong spirit-bond with the >Star-Eyed... The Shin'a'in in midnight blue were sworn to both the Warrior and the Crone, making them *both* Kal'enedral and Shaman, so their duties don't say much about the duties of the Kal'enedral... Daria wrote: > But may I point out that there *were* >no Kal'enedral when the Shamans went into trance? Where did you get this information? There are none mentioned as such, but why would that mean that there were none, period? -jenneke I *am* family. How could I not have family values? Only Boys Accepting Feminism Get Kissed Meaningfully -- Geoff Marcy The only unnatural sexual act is that which you cannot perform. -Alfred Kinsey broekman-+AT+-sparky.phast.umass.edu | http://www-astro.phast.umass.edu/gs/jenn.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Oct 1995 11:00:36 -0400 From: "Jennifer S. Broekman" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Bad News for Diana Tregarde fans Message-ID: <199510031500.LAA10913-+AT+-sparky.phast.umass.edu> Eric (EDooley489-+AT+-aol.com) wrote: >There are four books by Tanya Huff. They are Blood Price, Blood Trail, Blood >Lines, and Blood Pact. Huff has written more than these four books, of course, but these were the ones under discussion... >That is the order they come in. They deal with a male >vampire novelist and an ex-cop private investigator. The ex-cop is the main character, IMO. She's really awesome. Vivian wrote: > (Dunno about >Jenneke; Jenneke? You've posted previously that you're a Huff-fan, but >does that mean that necessarily you like the Blood Series better?) I haven't read the Di Tregarde books, so I can't really have a preference.:-) >(Then again, I'm VERY biased, seeing as how I live in Toronto and pass by >the streets that are mentioned in the books almost every day....and the >conversations are very Canadian (or at least Torontonian -- Everybody I >know swears like Vicky :) )). I'm biased, too, but a bit differently: I get so sick of the "America is the center of the universe" feel that a lot of American books, newspapers, and the 'net in general give off, that I just pounced on a Canadian author writing about things happening in Canada. (Especially Toronto, since I *like* Toronto.:-)) After I read the first one, I said to myself, "You know, anyone else would've set this in New York or San Francisco, even if they knew Toronto better. Where's the next one?" >I also like the Blood series better because >the protagonist is not special in the supernatural/mystical sense (unlike >Diana, who has special witchly(?) powers) and relies on her personality >(stubborn-as-hell) to get by. Not only is she not specially supernaturally talented, but she's going blind, and she still doesn't take any shit from anyone, much less the two guys trying to get her into bed.:-) -jenneke I *am* family. How could I not have family values? Only Boys Accepting Feminism Get Kissed Meaningfully -- Geoff Marcy The only unnatural sexual act is that which you cannot perform. -Alfred Kinsey broekman-+AT+-sparky.phast.umass.edu | http://www-astro.phast.umass.edu/gs/jenn.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Oct 1995 08:50:49 -0800 From: gjuka-+AT+-cnw.com (Gjuka) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Storm Warning (God question) Message-ID: <9510031541.AA28709-+AT+-baker> >>Being a priest is ministering to people, performing the everyday >>rituals that keep a people in contact with their deity, and generally >>acting as the contact between the deity and the people. Kal'enedral >>do not do this. Shaman do this. Kal'endral are the militant monks of >>the Shin'a'in, *not* the priests. (It wasn't the Kal'enedral of the >>tribes that went into trance to find out how the Star-Eyed wanted them >>to answer the challenge of the glassy Plains, remember.) They may be >>able to function as a priest under special circumstances, but it's not >>what they are. >> >>-jenneke > >Well, that's *your* definition of a priest. But may I point out that there >*were* >no Kal'enedral when the Shamans went into trance? IIRC, the senior Shaman >mentioned that the woman who had created that memory-rug had also >created the first sword-sworn. I guess my vote goes with the Kal'enedral >being Priests, even though they don't have congregations as such, since >they serve the Goddess more directly. > -Daria We tend to have a rather modern day and western (ie Christian) view of priests and what it means to be one. In the past there were militant sects like the knights templar, ext... and priests don't always serve the function we're accustomed to. For instance, the cloistered Holderkin women who are "in service to the goddess" who never leave the temple. There are various mentionings of cloistered orders throughout Misty's books, including when Vanyel thought his dad would banish him to one. Obviously, these people would not be in contact with people or help them. The purpose of a priest is to serve ones deity/s. Tarma does this and also refers to herself as a Priestess several times in the books. Oathbreakers pg 179 Tarma is going to call on her goddess as a priestess and she is nervous because... "She was not accustomedto making use of the part of her that, as Kal'endral, was also Priestess." and on pg 205... "Thrusting a blood-drenched fist at the sky, she summoned all the power that was her as Kalendral, as priestess, as swordsworn warrior- power she had never taken, never used." pg 206 "They faced each otherin silence for long moments, the Goddess and her votary." The star eyed also refers to the sword sworn as her eyes and hands at one point. gjuka-+AT+-cnw.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Oct 1995 12:56:57 -0500 From: h-wilfehrt-+AT+-nwu.edu (Helen M. Wilfehrt) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Storm Warning (God question) Message-ID: <199510031756.AA195723017-+AT+-casbah.acns.nwu.edu> >Adrienne York wrote: >>On Fri, 29 Sep 1995, Jennifer S. Broekman wrote: >>> people and performing rituals and so on. Kal'enedral have a stronger >>> link to a particular aspect of the Star-Eyed than the average >>> Shin'a'in, but they aren't priests in any other sense. >>Tell that to Tarma. Check out book 1 of V&H. When Tarma is talking to >>a priest just before she encounters Thalkarsh (sp?), the demon, again, >>and Misty says something to the effect of: Kethry was enjoying watching >>this often-hidden side of Tarma, for most people didn't know that as well >>as being a fully trained warrior, she was also a priest. I don't have >>the book, so I can't look up the exact quote. But I definitely remember >>that. > >IMO, there are two main bits to being a priest. One is having a link >to a deity, which can be as strong as Tarma's or as weak as Karal >thinks his is. The other part, which doesn't require the first, is to >*function* as a priest in one's everyday life. > >Participating as Priest in the OathBreaking ceremony doesn't count and >neither does having an expansive knowledge of theological literature >(which is what Tarma is displaying in the scene you're referring to). >The former is evidence of the link, since the ritual requires the >energy from magical and deific sources, while the latter is merely >scholasticism. Being able to claim the rank of Priest is also not >evidence of being one. Again, it's evidence of the link, and the >respect given to those who have one. Outside the Shin'a'in, it may be >that all those who have such a link are, indeed, priests, but inside >the Shin'a'in, this isn't the case. > >Being a priest is ministering to people, performing the everyday >rituals that keep a people in contact with their deity, and generally >acting as the contact between the deity and the people. Kal'enedral >do not do this. Shaman do this. Kal'endral are the militant monks of >the Shin'a'in, *not* the priests. (It wasn't the Kal'enedral of the >tribes that went into trance to find out how the Star-Eyed wanted them >to answer the challenge of the glassy Plains, remember.) They may be >able to function as a priest under special circumstances, but it's not >what they are. > >-jenneke But there can be different definitions of what makes up a priest. Really it's in the eyes of the Deity as to who are priests and who are not. The Kal'enedral are just priests who provide certain services on behalf of the Star-Eyed to the Shin'a'nin. Tarma probably shouldn't be taken as the sole example of the roles of the Kal'enedral since unlike the other Kal'enedral she didn't live with the Clans so needless to say what she did or did not do as Kal'enedral doesn't entirely reveal what other Kal'enedral did. What this actually reminds me of is described in a paragraph from Talia's Orientation class - one of the roles of Heralds is to act as impartial judges because while a region might already have a judge, that judge might be too involved to be impartial. A parallel might be drawn between the comparative roles between the Shaman and the Kal'enedral - the Shaman act as priests/co-leaders to a particular clan and therefore have personal opinions regarding their flock (eg. An'desha's problem with his own Clan's Shaman). On the other hand the Kal'enedral were specifically formed to prevent inter-Clan strife and therefore almost act, in addition to their militant nature, as priests to the whole of the Shin'a'nin. But I haven't a chance to go look up the description of the Kal'en'dral from the books so this is all speculative. Helen ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Oct 1995 12:59:04 -0500 From: h-wilfehrt-+AT+-nwu.edu (Helen M. Wilfehrt) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Lots of things. Message-ID: <199510031759.AA201093144-+AT+-casbah.acns.nwu.edu> >Cecile S. Ueltschey wrote: >>Thanks, Stephanie! I had forgotten Talia's "choice" of marriage or >>Temple-service. Perhaps the Holderkin split at the time of the goddess' >>"disappearance" - maybe the vows of silence, etc. reflect the growing >>repression and eventual removal of Vkandis' consort from the State >>religion. Wouldn't that make some interesting stories - set them in >>Karse, from a Karsite perspective....oh Misty!!! > >The Holderkin fled into Valdemar "a couple generation ago", while >Vkandis's Consort had gone missing "hundreds of years back". My guess >is that the Holderkin religion is their very own brand and not a >derivative of Vkandis's worship. > >-jenneke But I believe it was mentioned in SR that the Holderkin left Karse because either they were persecuted for their religion or because they disapproved of the worship of Vkandis. -Helen ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Oct 1995 13:03:14 -0500 From: h-wilfehrt-+AT+-nwu.edu (Helen M. Wilfehrt) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Lifebonds Message-ID: <199510031803.AA213523392-+AT+-casbah.acns.nwu.edu> >On Mon, 2 Oct 1995 14:28:24 +0100, Tarja Rainio >said: > >> Perhaps Ratha was boosting Eldan's Mindspeech ability? He approved >> of Kero and understood why she had to leave Eldan, but perhaps he >> recognized the Herald potential in her and in some strange Companion >> Foresight recognized that she would be needed in the future. Kero's >> relationship with Eldan created a link through which Kero got to >> Valdemar (simplifying a bit) and helped i the war effort and got >> finally Chosen. > > >What about this: They wouldn't be able to mindspeak over that >distance, usually. But remember, mostly, Kero was asleep when she >"spoke" with Eldan. Trance enhances the Gifts, doesn't it? So, if >Eldan entered a trance while Kero was asleep, he might be able to >reach her. I don't think they would have been able to communicate >with ordinary Mindspeak, otherwise. > >-- >IFL Except that she got that one comment of "not fair" from Eldan at one point when she was discussing Valdemar with someone, possibly her cousins, and criticized them, I believe, for not hiring Mercs. But I must also point out that Eldan acted as surprised as Kero when they realized that their "dreams" of one another weren't dreams - this is upon their reunion - so I would speculate that Eldan had not initiated this contact. Helen ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Oct 1995 13:12:37 -0500 From: h-wilfehrt-+AT+-nwu.edu (Helen M. Wilfehrt) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Storm Warning (God question) Message-ID: <199510031812.AA242013957-+AT+-casbah.acns.nwu.edu> >>Being a priest is ministering to people, performing the everyday >>rituals that keep a people in contact with their deity, and generally >>acting as the contact between the deity and the people. Kal'enedral >>do not do this. Shaman do this. Kal'endral are the militant monks of >>the Shin'a'in, *not* the priests. (It wasn't the Kal'enedral of the >>tribes that went into trance to find out how the Star-Eyed wanted them >>to answer the challenge of the glassy Plains, remember.) They may be >>able to function as a priest under special circumstances, but it's not >>what they are. >> >>-jenneke > >Well, that's *your* definition of a priest. But may I point out that there >*were* >no Kal'enedral when the Shamans went into trance? IIRC, the senior Shaman >mentioned that the woman who had created that memory-rug had also >created the first sword-sworn. I guess my vote goes with the Kal'enedral >being Priests, even though they don't have congregations as such, since >they serve the Goddess more directly. > -Daria As I mentioned in another post which is a bit more wordy, I've always imagined the Shaman as serving their own particular Clan while the Kal'enedral as serving the Clans as a whole and, as you mentioned, with a bit more direct contact to the Goddess. Helen ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Oct 1995 13:22:42 -0500 From: h-wilfehrt-+AT+-nwu.edu (Helen M. Wilfehrt) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Choosing Kero Message-ID: <199510031822.AA267314562-+AT+-casbah.acns.nwu.edu> >On Sat, 30 Sep 1995, Vivian Choh wrote: > >> On Fri, 29 Sep 1995, Cecile S. Ueltschey wrote: >> >> [somebody else's quote snipped re: Kero's skills] >> {much of my quote snipped} >> > [some more snipped] >> >Perhaps, it was too soon for Kero to show up in Valdemar. She was not >yet the leader of the Skybolts, the 'Bolts were in disarray at the end of >the Menmellith (or whatever) campaign, and she was >missing-presumed-dead. Granted, a number of her SKILLS were there but >she was not yet a LEADER. The Skybolts would not have followed her at >this point in time, and I feel that THEY were part of the reason that she >was Chosen AT THE TIME that she was. And perhaps, her Companion was not >ready???? > >Cecile It wasn't until she was CAPTAIN that she understood Eldan's dedication to the people of Valdemar which is been one of the qualifications for Heralds. She didn't share the devotion/compassion/(need to serve) for people yet when they first met. She already had ethics but she didn't share the devotion to serve, yet. As Captain and while in Valdemar, she began to understand the need to serve a people as well. Sort of like Vanyel beginning to feel the need to help those people who couldn't help themselves after dealing with that Cold-Drake. Plus, Talia mentions this hunger in her first talk with Selenay when she was talking about why her greatest desire was to become a Herald, and it is also described later in Gryphon's speech in the Orientation class. Helen ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Oct 1995 14:21:09 -0400 From: dstorrs-+AT+-crossover.com (David K. Storrs) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Bad News for Diana Tregarde fans Message-ID: <199510031821.OAA21677-+AT+-prague.crossover.com> >There are four books by Tanya Huff. They are Blood Price, Blood Trail, Blood >Lines, and Blood Pact. That is the order they come in. They deal with a male >vampire novelist and an ex-cop private investigator. They are definitely >similar to Misty's books and they are totally awesome. I got them in a >regular book store so you shouldn't have too many problems!:) >Eric > Thanks! There are some similar books, called "The Vampire Files" or "The Vampire Chronicles" by an author named P.E. something-or-other...I'll get the exact details for you next time I'm in CT. Dave ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Oct 1995 15:55:20 -0400 (EDT) From: Mat Timmerman To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Holderkin Message-ID: <01HW0C7P3DL48ZGHSX-+AT+-vaxc.hofstra.edu> From: Croaker > stuff snipped... > > Just a point to make: They were still Holderkin, still hyper-insular, > etc, in Vanyel's time. He mentions them when he's coming off the > Karsite border in the second book, I think. > > Are you sure about that? I'm rereading Magic's Promise right now, and I don't recall any mention of the Holderkin. Mat T. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Mat Timmerman "They want to stop the ones who want | | accmjt-+AT+-hofstra.edu prosthetic foreheads on their heads. But | | mtimmerman1-+AT+-hofstra.edu everybody wants prosthetic foreheads on | | their real heads." -- TMBG | --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Oct 1995 16:06:36 -0400 (EDT) From: Mat Timmerman To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Storm Warning (God question) Message-ID: <01HW0CAAQV1Q8ZGHSX-+AT+-vaxc.hofstra.edu> From: Catherine Osborne > I was under the impression that the Swordsworn in midnight blue (the ones > who work at the temple in Kata'shin'a'in, Querna, etc.) were the > particularly "priestly" arm of the Kal'endral, but all Swordsworn were > priest(esse)s by virtue of their direct and strong spirit-bond with the > Star-Eyed... I think that the midnight blue-wearing Kal'enedral were also shaman. IIRC, in WoFate, it is said that they are Sworn to both the Warrior and the Crone sides of the Goddess (isn't "The Star-Eyed" only supposed to refer to the Warrior aspect?). I also seem to remember a mention (I think by An'desha) of Shin'a'in Sworn to all four faces of the Goddess. SPOILERS for Storm Rising There, that should be enough. Maybe An'desha will end up Sworn to all four Faces of the Goddess. Given his growing mysticism, I think that it's possible. I think that he will definitely make some bond to the Kal'enel. I can't see him as a Kal'enedral, and his experiences as a child would probably rule out a straight shaman (and, no I'm not refering to the fact that he only seems to be she'chorne with Firesong). There hasn't been any mention of anyone being Sworn to the Maiden or the Mother (are those the other two, I can't remember). So, I think that the mention about being able to swear to all four Faces was dropped as a hint to An'desha's future. Mat T. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Mat Timmerman "They want to stop the ones who want | | accmjt-+AT+-hofstra.edu prosthetic foreheads on their heads. But | | mtimmerman1-+AT+-hofstra.edu everybody wants prosthetic foreheads on | | their real heads." -- TMBG | --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Oct 1995 16:38:42 -0400 (EDT) From: Rosario Holsen-Baker To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Firesong/Ma'ar? (SR SPOILERS) Message-ID: S P O I L E R S P A C E F O R S R I'm pretty sure I've seen this on the list somewhere, but thought I'd post it anyway. When Firesong (does anyone think the mage storm reason seemed slightly too easy to be true) was being slightly psychotic and was going to destroy his firebird, did anyone else find that to be very close to Ma'ar/Leareth/Mornelithe/whoever's behavior? I wonder if that is what he was, a Healing Adept, or at least an Adept, driven completely insane. And Firesong was never very stable to begin with, no matter how much he liked to seem so. My other idea is that Mornelithe left impressions on Firesong, even though they may have been too faint to show up under normal circumstances. The mage storms may have brought that out, hence Firesong's rage at "his" firebird panicking and lighting fires. I'm not as sure about this theory, though; Firesong is a Healing Adept and should be able to recognize that kind of thing. Just a few thoughts. Can't wait for Storm Breaking to come out! And does anyone know if there is any truth to the rumor that the past people will meet the present people? Another side effect of the mage storms, maybe? |------------------------------------------------------------------------| | Tygra Nightblades | | "I am the cat who walks by herself and all places are alike to me" | | "You may be older and have all manner of magic behind you | | but I bet I'm a lot more stubborn than you are" | | "Death or Silence" | |------------------------------------------------------------------------| ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Oct 1995 16:41:28 -0400 (EDT) From: Adrienne York To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Storm Warning (God question) Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Oct 1995, Jennifer S. Broekman wrote: > Adrienne York wrote: > >On Fri, 29 Sep 1995, Jennifer S. Broekman wrote: > >> people and performing rituals and so on. Kal'enedral have a stronger > >> link to a particular aspect of the Star-Eyed than the average > >> Shin'a'in, but they aren't priests in any other sense. > >Tell that to Tarma. Check out book 1 of V&H. When Tarma is talking to > >a priest just before she encounters Thalkarsh (sp?), the demon, again, > >and Misty says something to the effect of: Kethry was enjoying watching > >this often-hidden side of Tarma, for most people didn't know that as well > >as being a fully trained warrior, she was also a priest. I don't have > >the book, so I can't look up the exact quote. But I definitely remember > >that. > > IMO, there are two main bits to being a priest. One is having a link > to a deity, which can be as strong as Tarma's or as weak as Karal > thinks his is. The other part, which doesn't require the first, is to > *function* as a priest in one's everyday life. (snip) > Being a priest is ministering to people, performing the everyday > rituals that keep a people in contact with their deity, and generally > acting as the contact between the deity and the people. Kal'enedral > do not do this. Shaman do this. Kal'endral are the militant monks of > the Shin'a'in, *not* the priests. (It wasn't the Kal'enedral of the > tribes that went into trance to find out how the Star-Eyed wanted them > to answer the challenge of the glassy Plains, remember.) They may be > able to function as a priest under special circumstances, but it's not > what they are. The function of a priest is not limited to administering to the people daily. By your definition, the Son of the Sun would not be counted a priest, because it is her function to lead the people and take orders from Vkandis, not talking to the common people as a sort of daily confessor. In RL, priests are not limited to ministering to the people. I know priests whose main function is to work on behalf of a ministry, cutting through paperwork, obtaining funds, establishing programs. That too, is a priestly function. My mind is blanking, Karl's mentor, Ural????, would not be a priest by your definition. He was primarily a scholar, a mage, a diplomat, and a friend of the Son of the Sun. Frankly, I think Tarma more than qualifies as a priest, because she ;];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];] ;] Adrienne York-Minor ;] ;] "There is no 'One, True Way'" Valdemaran Law Codes ;] ;] ayork-+AT+-simons-rock.edu ;] ;];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];] ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Oct 1995 17:04:45 -0400 (EDT) From: Adrienne York To: Mercedes Lackey Mailing List Subject: Meetings and Musings via IRC (fwd) Message-ID: I was reading my newsgroup and thought those of us who irc might be interested. ;];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];] ;] Adrienne York-Minor ;] ;] "There is no 'One, True Way'" Valdemaran Law Codes ;] ;] ayork-+AT+-simons-rock.edu ;] ;];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];] ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: 1 OCT 1995 17:11:01 GMT From: William Jones Newgroups: alt.books.m-lackey Subject: Meetings and Musings via IRC Good news to all.... #valdemar has now returned! It is complete with bot and following... We're currently working on a universal meeting time, and a connection between Undernet and EFnet... Currently it is only on EFnet... We hope to see you there... For more info please E-mail me... - Shadow-Lover ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Oct 1995 15:06:32 -0700 From: wdjpej-+AT+-ix.netcom.com (William Jones ) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Storm Warning (God question) Message-ID: <199510032206.PAA24728-+AT+-ix2.ix.netcom.com> You wrote: > > > >>*Mage Storms Spoiler Alert* > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> >> >>If there are only two, and Vkandis and the Star-Eyed are on the same >>side (and there's pretty hard evidence of it), why would someone as >>knowledgeable as Ulrich think that there might be a deity on the >>Empire's side who would go head-to-head with Vkandis if Vkandis >>started throwing ligtening bolts around? >> >>-jenneke >> > > > >And what about Iftel? There are all kinds of referances to their deity >taking an active role in the defence of the country. > >Colette > > >gjuka-+AT+-cnw.com > My arguments dealing with Iftel are that Kethry's goddess was the Windborn Lady... The Star-Eyed said that she was another face of Kethry's own goddess... And the dieties of Iftel are the Wind-Lords... See the simalarities? Shadow-Lover ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Oct 1995 19:22:47 -0700 From: lwilbur-+AT+-pacificnet.net To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: birthday cake Message-ID: <199510040222.TAA13756-+AT+-north.pacificnet.net> back from vacation-thanks for the saved birthday cake! (Italy was great!) :) Lee ------------------------------ End of MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 165 *********************************