MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 173 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re: MERCEDES-LACKEY digest 171 by "Barbara G. Jacob-McDowell" 2) Re: Misty's Music by QJBE50F-+AT+-prodigy.com (MR JOHN T HELQUIST) 3) Re: religion by owl 4) Re: MERCEDES-LACKEY digest 171 by "Jennifer S. Broekman" 5) RE: Kal'enedral by "Jennifer S. Broekman" 6) RE: Kal'enedral by "Sanna Koulu" 7) Re:Misty's Music by "Sanna Koulu" 8) Re: Vrondi etc. by wdjpej-+AT+-ix.netcom.com (William Jones ) 9) Re: MERCEDES-LACKEY digest 171 by "Sandy Haas" 10) ADMIN: alt.books.m-lackey FAQ now in list archives by mel (Melanie Dymond Harper) 11) RE: Kal'enedral by "Cecile S. Ueltschey" 12) Re RE kal'enedral by s003yms-+AT+-desire.wright.edu 13) Re: _Jinx High_ by "Jennifer S. Broekman" 14) Re: Re RE kal'enedral by dstorrs-+AT+-crossover.com (David K. Storrs) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 10 Oct 1995 18:08:33 -0400 (EDT) From: "Barbara G. Jacob-McDowell" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: MERCEDES-LACKEY digest 171 Message-ID: Bright Lady, am I ever GLAD to be back! I missed you all! Matt asked if I'd dropped off the face of the earth. No. "Reserves madness" struck early, plus a totally new library software system, plus many staff changes/shortages and absences, plus trying to train not only the new work/study students, but also the returnees (37 in all) = 12-hour days, and lunch being a few minutes snatched at my desk. I kept telling myself as my email accumulated over 500 non-work-related messages (most of it junk) that I was going to save up the Misty digests and read'em in order so I wouldn't miss anything, but I couldn't stand it anymore Sunday, and jumped ahead...so I guess I'm going to finish somewhere in the middle! Please bear with me.... Just a couple of comments: On the religion button: for many, religion is the cloak for spirituality. For some, religion obscures it. I think for most humans there is a need for expression of spirituality, and a warping of the personality for those who do not, in whatever fashion. One of the things I like about Misty's work is that she is not afraid to tackle issues showing that life-fundamentals for people of widely differing backgrounds (and religions) are really not all that different. Tremayne (who may or may not be able to count his little gods) is as concerned with taking care of the men he is responsible for as any of the Alliance, and as angry at the apparant callous abandonment as they would be. But I want to mention another angle of I think Chelle's comment on the Di Tregarde books, particularly *JInx High*, which someone was quoting in last Sunday's digest. I must've started and deleted my response at least 6 times because it is so painful for me. So here I am on my 7th try....and if I misquote, I apologize. I think there was something on the order of "I'm really confused: How did Lenny get AIDS? It wasn't around in the 70s, or if it was, it wasn't diagnosed...." My first husband died of AIDS on New Year's Day, 1985. We had been divorced a little over a year. He had gone into the hospital that Sept./Oct. for something totally different, and was diagnosed. Having a bad heart (literally), he went into cardiac arrest, they screwed up on the resucitation, and he went into a coma...coming out of it just enough to be called "responsive", despite having been so brain-damaged that they told his mother he would never be more than a vegetable. For the next couple of months, he was in a pattern where he would have seizures, they would give him drugs, he would stop a bit weaker, they'd discontinue the drugs, he'd have another seizure, and so forth in a downward cycle. At first they thought he'd only last 2 days to 2 weeks; he was stronger than they thought, and he lived until the afternoon of that Jan. 1st ten years ago, aged only 35. It was horrible for everyone who loved him--even including me, because although out of a 6-yr. marriage I can count less than 3 weeks of actual happiness together, and having left because I was afraid he would kill me, part of me still loved and to this day loves him. Someone said they wanted to live in Valdemar, or anyway in a different world than this one. I want to live in one where if one's needs/identity/desires don't fit the socially "correct" norms, one isn't so torn up and frightened that (s)he doesn't become a hateful, cruel, abusive monster, trying to kill the guilt and pain with alcohol and drugs and gambling and probably other things, and so lost that this becomes the norm. One thing I learned about living with an unrecovered alcoholic is that whatever one's problems, alcohol only makes them worse--for everyone closest. The man I fell in love with was a handsome, athletic, intelligent, charming person who had a good sense of values and morals and zest for life...and lost it all. Why? Because he was terrified of how people would react if they found out, and he couldn't face that. He thought that if he got married, that would "fix" it. Nope. Just applied more pressure, and lying, and guilt, and finally, despair. And I am here to tell you that no one, NO ONE, not my first husband, not Hitler, not ANYONE, deserves to die of this horrible disease. I was lucky. Thanks to imposed celibacy for most of that 6 yrs., I did not get infected. (Another instance of not getting what I wanted when I wanted it that turned out not to have been a good idea under the circumstances.) But I did not get tested in the little town I was living in at the time; I waited until I could get to a city hospital many miles away. I am also very lucky that I met and married a wonderful man who is very patient and understanding, and that my foster brother, who was truly a brother to me in the best sense all that time (more so than anyone in my biological family as far as understanding my confused emotions), and who is gay himself, is being careful across the country. I worry about him a lot. Sorry if this seems like a rant. As I said at the beginning, this is a very hard topic for me. My first husband was diagnosed in the fall of '84. I very strongly suspect that he was exposed to it --and may have known that he was-- in the late 70s. Just because the public at large didn't know about it doesn't mean that it did not exist, nor that just because it was not diagnosed about that time or a bit earlier, that it did not exist. Think of all the genetic diseases that are just being discovered, now that the tools for doing so exist. Anorexia nervosa and bulemia (spelling?) are comparatively "recent" diseases, in that they have entered the popular consciouness, but that does not mean that they did not exist earlier. There is a book I'm trying to recall the title of concerning some of the medieval Catholic saints (mostly teenage or 20-something women) who starved in ecstacy...and this author posits that they were actually early anorexics. Hope you aren't sorry that I'm back.... --Barra ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Oct 1995 19:38:46 EDT From: QJBE50F-+AT+-prodigy.com (MR JOHN T HELQUIST) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Misty's Music Message-ID: <013.02694304.QJBE50F-+AT+-prodigy.com> On Tue, 10 Oct 1995 RUNDLE-+AT+- wilma.cxasd.az.honeywell.com (StarWolf) wrote: (snip) >I also picked up Wanderlust from Heather Alexander, and 2 tempest - "Serrated Edge" and "Surfing to >Mecca" I LOVE Heather!!!! Wanderlust is _Wonderful_. If you like her you have to get Heather Alexander...Live! from Firebird as well as Midsummer (Random Factors has both of them for sure). I get to go see her at OVFF (Ohio Valley Filk Festival) this month . >Of the direct Misty stuff, "ShadowStalker" is awesome. I agree. My favorite on that album is The Shadow-Lover. Heather also does wonderful on the tapes 'Oathbound" and "Oathbreakers". >and HH&H has some very grating songs, like the two Sun & Shadows songs. I have to disagree on that one, Sun & Shadows is my favorite from that album. I am glad you are liking Filk music. I found out about it last year and love it. Enjoy your music, John Helquist ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Oct 1995 00:01:28 EST From: owl To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: religion Message-ID: Ummm, is anyone else here kind of uncomfortable with the religion thread that has been going on lately? I kind of feel like it has veared away from Velgarth (sorry about the aliteration) and into the personal realm. I really don't see what it has to do with Mercedes Lackey at all. It could be discussed on the Pagan Digest instead. Other than that, this list is great!!! I love ML and am so excited to have found a list for it. As for music, I have the Serrated Edge CD from Tempest--am I correct in thinking that Tempest is putting out another CD involving ML? And does anyone know when Tempest Fugit is going to be released? ML seems a little behind in her publishing schedule--although I guess 1995 isn't over *yet*. sighhhh. Waiting is such a drag. An innocent ;^) newbie de-lurker, Owl "I never let my schooling interfere with my education" Mark Twain ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Oct 1995 00:56:13 -0400 From: "Jennifer S. Broekman" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: MERCEDES-LACKEY digest 171 Message-ID: <199510110456.AAA17228-+AT+-sparky.phast.umass.edu> Barbara G. Jacob-McDowell wrote: > And I am here to tell you that no one, NO ONE, not my first husband, >not Hitler, not ANYONE, deserves to die of this horrible disease. AMEN!!! I'm really sorry that you had to go through any of this... >a very hard topic for me. My first husband was diagnosed in the fall of >'84. I very strongly suspect that he was exposed to it --and may have >known that he was-- in the late 70s. Just because the public at large >didn't know about it doesn't mean that it did not exist, nor that just >because it was not diagnosed about that time or a bit earlier, that it >did not exist. To my knowledge, it was called 'gay cancer' or 'the plague' in the gay community before it was named by the medical community. (Currently, it seems to be called 'the Plague' as often as anything else...) So Lenny certainly could have had it and known more or less what it was (deadly) even if JH were in the 70's. (There are lots of other hints, from music to links to other books, CotN and BtR for starters, that place it in the early to mid 80's...) -jenneke I *am* family. How could I not have family values? Only Boys Accepting Feminism Get Kissed Meaningfully -- Geoff Marcy The only unnatural sexual act is that which you cannot perform. -Alfred Kinsey broekman-+AT+-sparky.phast.umass.edu | http://www-astro.phast.umass.edu/gs/jenn.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Oct 1995 01:14:35 -0400 From: "Jennifer S. Broekman" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: RE: Kal'enedral Message-ID: <199510110514.BAA17254-+AT+-sparky.phast.umass.edu> Starwolf (RUNDLE-+AT+-wilma.bcasd.az.honeywell.com) wrote: >I think that there are 3 types of Companions, not 2. I tend to agree, down to the types.:-) >BUT! I think that there are extremely few Grove Born, in >fact only 2 that we know of. Actually, don't we know of at least 6 by name? Taver, Rolan, Gwena, and the 3 originals named in the story of the Founding told in Talia's Orientation Class... I do agree that the two in Talia's time are probably the highest concentration of Grove-Born since the last of the Founding Companions died, though... -jenneke I *am* family. How could I not have family values? Only Boys Accepting Feminism Get Kissed Meaningfully -- Geoff Marcy The only unnatural sexual act is that which you cannot perform. -Alfred Kinsey broekman-+AT+-sparky.phast.umass.edu | http://www-astro.phast.umass.edu/gs/jenn.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Oct 1995 08:09:35 EET From: "Sanna Koulu" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: RE: Kal'enedral Message-ID: <20B5CE570D9-+AT+-otdk.helsinki.fi> > > (I snipped so much that nothing's left ) > > About the discussion that Companions are reincarnated Heralds. > > I will restate my theory (since there's a lot of newbies to this > list) and see who jumps out this time > > I think that there are 3 types of Companions, not 2. > > There are the Grove Born, who seem to be "higher" guardian > spirits. > > There are reincarnated Heralds, this seems fairly clear from > a large number of clues, and becomes more and more obvious > in the later books. > > BUT! I think that there are extremely few Grove Born, in > fact only 2 that we know of. And of the rest, I don't believe > all of them are reincarnated Heralds. I think some are. But > the rest are simply lower guardian spirits, benign spirits of > the ethereal planes. > > There is, as far as I know, not one iota of proof that ALL non- > Groveborn Companions are ex-Heralds. Some certainly. Like > Sayvil, and a few others. But every one??? Nope, don't buy it. > > Anyone want to offer some more *proof*?? > > StarWolf (get this discussion going, why don't I?) Um. I think 8 am is too early for this... I'm still all brain-dead. Anyway, at some point in the Storms books _somebody_ says that as Companions are reincarnated Heralds, so Firecats are reborn Sons of Sun. I think this implies that _all_ 'Cats are Sons and that all Companions are Heralds. (Sheesh, what a brilliantly clear statement that is!). On the other hand, in the Valdemar chronicles it's said that the earliest Companions were GB, but that the later ones were foaled. BUT at that point there weren't any dead Heralds who could have been reborn as the foaled Companions. I think. Any opinions, anyone? -Seanna ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Oct 1995 12:11:03 EET From: "Sanna Koulu" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re:Misty's Music Message-ID: <20F63301AAC-+AT+-otdk.helsinki.fi> Starwolf wrote: (I snipped:) > Cool a new topic! > > Anyway, I love Heather Alexander's voice and music, and > have decided that "Wanderlust" is my favorite of all these. > > Of the direct Misty stuff, "ShadowStalker" is absolutely > awesome, "By the Sword" is really good, though I prefer > Heather to Meg Davis' voice. > Yes! Heather Alexander is great. _Flight of Fantasy_ is brilliant - and being an elf fan I just loved Last Battle (or whatever it's called. My memory and me don't get along. :) ) >I haven't been able to really get into "Lovers, Lore and > Loss" on which Misty sings a lot. Frankly, while she writes > some really awesome music, her voice just isn't as good > as some of these other folk. Plus, since Vanyel and > Kero are my two favorites, obviously I like "their" music > best. I rather liked Misty's voice - I think she's a good choice for Queen Selenay. On the other hand, a good voice isn't exactly mandatory - can somebody claim Leslie Fish's is _good_? Glorious, damn impressive and expressive, definitely, but good? > I use this stuff as background music to my > workday a lot, and HH&H has some very grating songs, like > the two Sun & Shadow songs. Whyfor? I think they're lovely! Even if a bit long, but then again, they are supposed to be ballads. Though Sun & Shadow is impossible to play on the guitar the way it's written. At least for me. > Any other suggestions about music from groups similar to > Tempest are eagerly solicited. There's Phoenyx... but they disbanded and the album _Keepers of the Flame_ is out of print. Please, if somebody knows where to get the thing, tellmetellmetellme!!! I tragically lost my copy of the CD, and it's really good. Heather Alexander really shines on it. There's a Swedish-Finnish band called Hedningarna ("the Pagans") that does a great job of combining modern sounds with old music. It's amazing - some more solid citizens, like the Religious Reich, would probably want to burn the tape, though. -Seanna ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Oct 1995 03:57:55 -0700 From: wdjpej-+AT+-ix.netcom.com (William Jones ) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Vrondi etc. Message-ID: <199510111057.DAA15147-+AT+-ix2.ix.netcom.com> You wrote: > >This thread probably died out while I was away, but I just finished rereading >the LHM books, so I thought I'd trot out a wee bit of evidence. > >We were discussing whether the vrondi were able to recognise that someone using >magic was an "authorised" mage. I still think not; in the scene where Van has >gone off into the forest at Forst Reach, just before he encounters the mage >who attempts to assassinate Treesa (this is in _Magic's Price_), he works some >magic and gets tapped on the shoulder (virtually speaking) by a vrondi. He >then tells it the correct response and it leaves him alone, which implies that >it couldn't just recognise him as a Herald (and therefore authorised). > >Cheers > >Mel. > If I am not mistaken, Savil says at one point that the reason the Vrondi are so effective is that the Heralds are the only ones that have discovered that particular air elemental... Evidently, at least from what I can tell from the Winds books, they don't show up well to Othersight... So, what u can't see, u can't get rid of... :) Also, at that point the spell was very new... Spoiler Space for Winds 3 Should do... When Van is speaking with Elspeth, Darkwind, and Firesong he says that over the last 700 years since his death he had been altering the spell... I think that once there were no Herald-Mages in Valdemar Van made it so there was no correct responce... Therefore NO magic could be performed on the Valdemar side of the border... Without Herald-Mages to perform authorized magic, that kind of anathema would not have mattered... - Shadow-Lover A sociopath with no restraints can become anything... Amorality frees her to be universally perfect, a charming chamelion with a scorpion's tail... - Color of Night ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Oct 1995 08:12:43 EDT From: "Sandy Haas" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: MERCEDES-LACKEY digest 171 Message-ID: <6D3438281C-+AT+-rackham.umich.edu> > Sorry if this seems like a rant. As I said at the beginning, this is > a very hard topic for me. > Hope you aren't sorry that I'm back.... > > --Barra Thanks for sharing--it serves as a reminder to me to be non-judgemental unless I can say I have walked a mile in your shoes. Which I certainly can not say I have done. Saying what you did was very brave of you--again-thanks. Sandy Haas ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Oct 1995 15:28:15 +0100 From: mel (Melanie Dymond Harper) To: mercedes-lackey Subject: ADMIN: alt.books.m-lackey FAQ now in list archives Message-ID: <9510111428.AA20152-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk> You can now find the FAQ for alt.books.m-lackey in the list archives; to retrieve a copy, send mail to listproc-+AT+-herald.co.uk, with the customary blank subject (or close to it) and the message get mercedes-lackey abml-faq.1 get mercedes-lackey abml-faq.2 to get both parts. It's also available by FTP at ftp://ftp.herald.co.uk/pub/lists/lackey-archives/abml-faq.1 and similarly for part 2. Cheers Mel. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Oct 1995 11:51:21 -0500 (CDT) From: "Cecile S. Ueltschey" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: RE: Kal'enedral Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Oct 1995, Sanna Koulu wrote: > > > > > (I snipped so much that nothing's left ) > >(from Starwolf's post) > > About the discussion that Companions are reincarnated Heralds. > > > > I will restate my theory (since there's a lot of newbies to this > > list) and see who jumps out this time > > > > I think that there are 3 types of Companions, not 2. > > > > There are the Grove Born, who seem to be "higher" guardian > > spirits. > > > > There are reincarnated Heralds, > > > > BUT! I think that there are extremely few Grove Born, > > the rest are simply lower guardian spirits, benign spirits of > > the ethereal planes. > > > in the Valdemar chronicles it's said > that the earliest Companions were GB, but that the later ones were > foaled. BUT at that point there weren't any dead Heralds who could > have been reborn as the foaled Companions. I think. Any opinions, > anyone? > To play "demon's advocate" here [;-}0][that's supposed to be a demon-face with a curly moustache!] Perhaps, at first, the spirits of Baron Valdemar's friends and advisors - perhaps ones killed in the escape - were reincarnated into the early foals??? Then later, as there were more Heralds and Herald-spirits, they were offered the choice? Of course, Starwolf could be right TOO. If Heralds are given a choice when they die, surely not all of them take that option?? Okay, I'll refute myself here, given the highly developed sense of DUTY in Heralds maybe they all WOULD choose to return as a Companion. After so many years, by the time we get to Elspeth, Talia and Co. maybe there are ONLY two kinds of Companions, although we really don't have any numbers to calculate .... all I remember now is a mention of the fact that there are Companions at the Collegium who have not Chosen, so there are more Companions than Heralds during the reign of Selenay. (Persuasive, yes? no? maybe?). I can't imagine there being a "fixed" number of Companions, but it seems at some point, as more Heralds die and their spirits choose to be reincarnated wouldn't there be more spirits than Companions?? Is there evidence that Heralds (FULL Heralds, I don't want to get into the Tylendel/Stefan thing - I think he was a special case) (other than Van, he too is a special case in my mind) have an option for reincarnation other than as a Companion? Perhaps not ALL Heralds are given that choice? Yes, folks its true, more questions, few answers! Fun thread, tho! Zhai'helleva Cecile ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Oct 1995 13:07:01 -0500 (EST) From: s003yms-+AT+-desire.wright.edu To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Cc: yvonne-+AT+-desire.wright.edu Subject: Re RE kal'enedral Message-ID: maybe the companion looked offended but it seems she may have done just that with Trevalen and Dawnfire, using the shape of a vorcel hawk instead of a horse (hawk would pass through the tayledras as well as the shin'a'in unnoticed) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Oct 1995 12:39:28 -0400 From: "Jennifer S. Broekman" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: _Jinx High_ Message-ID: <199510111639.MAA17668-+AT+-sparky.phast.umass.edu> Kristine E. Johnston wrote: > As far as cattle farmers sending kids to schools with a better >tax base, I believe it. I live the U.S. midwest, the farm kids are >the ones with the money. Also it is easily possible that the farm >was inside the lines of the (cant think of the word, y'know, how >school systems are divided up). Example: Davenport Iowa, on the >map it looks big but I swear half the city is incorporated farmland. >They have neighborhoods hidden in the middle of cornfields. You >drive down a gravel road and then turn onto concrete, its really >weird. I was under the impression that Oklahoma(?) was the same way. > Not trying to be mean or anything but do you live in a city suburb >or something? Maybe its just a farming area thing. No offense taken. I've lived all my life in the northeast, where it just don't work that way. Thanks for the explanation... -jenneke I *am* family. How could I not have family values? Only Boys Accepting Feminism Get Kissed Meaningfully -- Geoff Marcy The only unnatural sexual act is that which you cannot perform. -Alfred Kinsey broekman-+AT+-sparky.phast.umass.edu | http://www-astro.phast.umass.edu/gs/jenn.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Oct 1995 13:07:24 -0400 From: dstorrs-+AT+-crossover.com (David K. Storrs) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Re RE kal'enedral Message-ID: <199510111707.NAA04815-+AT+-prague.crossover.com> Complete text included: > >maybe the companion looked offended but it seems she may have done just >that with Trevalen and Dawnfire, using the shape of a vorcel hawk instead >of a horse (hawk would pass through the tayledras as well as the >shin'a'in unnoticed) > > > What??? Please include the text you are responding to, for those of us who are mnemonically-challenged. :> Dave -- (BANG!!BANG!! RATATATATATATATA!!!) "Ahh...exercising his Constitutionally approved right to bear arms, I see." "At the neighbors, apparently." ------------------------------ End of MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 173 *********************************