MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 174 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) RE: Kal'enedral by dstorrs-+AT+-crossover.com (David K. Storrs) 2) Re: Re RE kal'enedral by "Cecile S. Ueltschey" 3) RE: Kal'enedral by RUNDLE-+AT+-wilma.bcasd.az.honeywell.com 4) Re:Misty's Music by ristuben-+AT+-webstar.net (erik ristuben) 5) RE: Kal'enedral by Sunfalcon 6) Re: Re RE kal'enedral by Gyrfalcon 7) Re: Enough! I'm sorry, already! by URAMESS-+AT+-aol.com 8) by URAMESS-+AT+-aol.com 9) Re:Misty's Music by owl 10) Re: Catholic Bashing and All That Jazz by URAMESS-+AT+-aol.com 11) Re: Re RE kal'enedral by mealink-+AT+-syd.au.swissbank.com (Kerry Mealing) 12) RE: Kal'enedral by duvall.23-+AT+-postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu (Stacy Hunt DuVall) 13) Re: Misty's Music by "Kristin A. Ruhle" 14) RE: Kal'enedral by "Sanna Koulu" 15) Re: Vrondi etc. by jc-+AT+-crosfield.co.uk (Jerry Cullingford) 16) again, three things: Vanyel covers, survey, NCOD by Catherine Osborne 17) by s003yms-+AT+-desire.wright.edu 18) RE: Kal'enedral by "Cecile S. Ueltschey" 19) Re:Misty's Music by wdjpej-+AT+-ix.netcom.com (William Jones ) 20) Re:Misty's Music by RUNDLE-+AT+-wilma.bcasd.az.honeywell.com 21) Sciences in Valdemar by duvall.23-+AT+-postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu (Stacy Hunt DuVall) 22) RE: Kal'enedral by "Cecile S. Ueltschey" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 11 Oct 1995 15:10:24 -0400 From: dstorrs-+AT+-crossover.com (David K. Storrs) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: RE: Kal'enedral Message-ID: <199510111910.PAA05067-+AT+-prague.crossover.com> > > >On Wed, 11 Oct 1995, Sanna Koulu wrote: >> >> > >> > (I snipped so much that nothing's left ) >> >(from Starwolf's post) >> > About the discussion that Companions are reincarnated Heralds. >> > >> > I think that there are 3 types of Companions, not 2. >> > >> > There are the Grove Born, who seem to be "higher" guardian >> > spirits. >> > >> > There are reincarnated Heralds, >> > >> > BUT! I think that there are extremely few Grove Born, > >> > the rest are simply lower guardian spirits, benign spirits of >> > the ethereal planes. > >Of course, Starwolf could be right TOO. If Heralds are given a choice >when they die, surely not all of them take that option?? Okay, I'll >refute myself here, given the highly developed sense of DUTY in Heralds >maybe they all WOULD choose to return as a Companion. > > >Yes, folks its true, more questions, few answers! Fun thread, tho! > >Zhai'helleva >Cecile > Here's a question for you; a Herald dies, and is given the choice to come back as a Companion. He does, serves for a while, and then dies as a Companion. What happens next? Dave -- (BANG!!BANG!! RATATATATATATATA!!!) "Ahh...exercising his Constitutionally approved right to bear arms, I see." "At the neighbors, apparently." ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Oct 1995 16:07:04 -0500 (CDT) From: "Cecile S. Ueltschey" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Re RE kal'enedral Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Oct 1995, David K. Storrs wrote: > Complete text included: > > > > >maybe the companion looked offended but it seems she may have done just > >that with Trevalen and Dawnfire, using the shape of a vorcel hawk instead > >of a horse (hawk would pass through the tayledras as well as the > >shin'a'in unnoticed) > > > > > > > > > What??? > > > Please include the text you are responding to, for those of us who > are mnemonically-challenged. :> > > > > Dave > ditto Cecile ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Oct 1995 14:36:35 -0600 (MDT) From: RUNDLE-+AT+-wilma.bcasd.az.honeywell.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: RE: Kal'enedral Message-ID: <951011143635.21a38115-+AT+-wilma.bcasd.az.honeywell.com> I don't have the quote on me, and won't have time to look it up for a few days, so if someone else would, I'd appreciate it. I think what Ulrich said/implied was that companions appear to be reincarnated heralds, just as firecats are reincarnated Sons of the Sun. However, he said this based on his meeting with what, 1 or two companions? This in and of itself does not refute my statement that not all non-grove-born (NGB) companions are ex-heralds. In fact, I don't think Ulrich is even that definite. But we'd need the exact quote to deal with it further. I know I plan to spend a little time this weekend looking up both this one and a few Vanyel ones dealing with setting up the web and his encounter in the forest. StarWolf ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Oct 95 18:15 CDT From: ristuben-+AT+-webstar.net (erik ristuben) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re:Misty's Music Message-ID: >Seanna wrote: >I rather liked Misty's voice - I think she's a good choice for >Queen Selenay. On the other hand, a good voice isn't exactly >mandatory - can somebody claim Leslie Fish's is _good_? Glorious, >damn impressive and expressive, definitely, but good? I agree so much with you, Seanna! When I first heard Misty sing I thought, yick, stop it, lady! But although she is not as lyric and tone perfect and Heather Alexander or the other leading ladies, I learned to stop comparing her with anyone else. The same with Leslie Fish. I was horrified at first by her voice which (to my untrained ears) seemed flat, nasal and unpleasant. But as soon as I began to appreciate these ladies as individuals, listening to them both became a pleasure as I saw the characters they were singing come to life. Thanks for listening to a newbie coming out of the closet...it IS almost "coming out" day, after all! Firefly ristuben-+AT+-webstar.net ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Oct 1995 19:15:16 -0400 (EDT) From: Sunfalcon To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: RE: Kal'enedral Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Oct 1995, Cecile S. Ueltschey wrote: > I can't imagine there being a "fixed" number of Companions, > but it seems at some point, as more Heralds die and their spirits choose > to be reincarnated wouldn't there be more spirits than Companions?? Is > there evidence that Heralds (FULL Heralds, I don't want to get into the > Tylendel/Stefan thing - I think he was a special case) (other than Van, > he too is a special case in my mind) have an option for reincarnation > other than as a Companion? Perhaps not ALL Heralds are given that choice? I certainly hope not. Can you imagine what sort of Companion a Herald like Lores (the blockheaded one from Magic's Promise) would make? I very much doubt that all Heralds are offered the choice of incarantion as a Companion, since at least some would have died so young as to be relatively useless (in terms of practical experience, at least) to their Chosen. Which brings me to my next point. The most persuasive argument I can think of for the "some-Companions-are-Guardian-spirits-on-earth-for-the-first-time" theory is the fact that some of them make serious mistakes, mistakes that a lifetime's worth of experience might have prevented. I'm thinking primarily of Gala here (I know, I know, the whole repudiation thread has been covered several times already, but. . . ), although I'm sure there are other examples. Now I have some questions of my own, both of which involve spoilers from Storm Warning (and probably Storm Rising, too, though I haven't read it yet). Okay, here we go. . . Did anyone else find the whole reaction to Florian's announcement a bit odd? Here we have a Companion calmly saying that he can function as a Master-level Mage, and, aside from Elspeth's jaw dropping, NO ONE SEEMS TO REALLY CARE. I find this very disturbing, especially the fact that since magic has only recently "returned" to Valdemar, Florian (a Mage-Gifted Companion) was born before the prohibition was lifted. Either the Powers That Be were able to see far enough into the future that they knew a Companion of these skills would be useful (ten or more years down the line seems like awfully powerful Foresight, though), or else (presumably) Mage-Gifted Companions have been running around ever since Vanyel died. Did Valdemar endure the loss of magic for nothing, since properly gifted Companions should have been able to train the appropriate Heralds? Also, on the subject of Iftel, I have a few questions, which I have reason to believe were answered in Storm Rising. If so, please let me know by personal mail, so as not to clutter up the list. So what's powering the wall along the (entire) Iftel border? People (in the books) have been talking about a God for a very long time, but I would think that a God could produce something a bit more refined. Storm Warning refers to Iftel's guardian as "not intelligent"; but it's sentient enough to react to Karal with curiosity and then satisfaction. The two things this reminds me of (and I don't have Winds of Fury, so I can't verify the second) are the scene with Vanyel and the "tapping" Vrondi, and the scene in which Elspeth is introduced to Haven's Heartstone. Considering the current situation in Northwest Velgarth, I can't believe that any benevolent deity hovering over Iftel would close off its country so completely, especially considering the dual threat of the Empire and the Mage Storms. If Iftel's barrier is the result of a God's efforts, then why doesn't Vkandis do the same thing for Karse (or why doesn't Kalenel simply wall off the Dhorisha plains from all intruders?) I think there has to be something powerful, but decidedly Non'Godlike watching over Iftel. Lastly, we've heard several times that the Shin'a'in are guarding all sorts of really nasty weapons that are buried in the plains and still potentially active. And the plains were the site of URTHO's stronghold. What about Ma'ar? So what if his city is buried under Lake Evendim? Shouldn't there be at least some sort of watch placed over whatever goodies he left behind? Well, that's all for this week. . . =) The Wordsmith of Irymar. . . has got to go get some sleep. . . ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Oct 1995 21:30:22 -0400 (EDT) From: Gyrfalcon To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Re RE kal'enedral Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Oct 1995 s003yms-+AT+-desire.wright.edu wrote: > > maybe the companion looked offended but it seems she may have done just > that with Trevalen and Dawnfire, using the shape of a vorcel hawk instead > of a horse (hawk would pass through the tayledras as well as the > shin'a'in unnoticed) ???? Hmmm. High confusion factor. Please keep enough of the previous messages to let people follow the thread. Fair winds and skys, --Gyrfalcon =======================msowers-+AT+-menger.eecs.stevens-tech.edu=================== Magic still exists. We have only to reach out and touch it, it is a part of the very fabric of the world. When our belief of magic completely dies this universe shall die. Because that magic; Hope, Dreams, Love, Beauty, Wonder, Belief, and Discovery are what make us a people. They are all part of a great Art whose workings are still a mystery but whose applications can be seen every day. If we ever lose the Art mankind shall not last the day. Let the magic that is in us roam free in our work, play, in each other, and most of all in ourselves. Let it roam free or it will die. ============================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Oct 1995 22:19:50 -0400 From: URAMESS-+AT+-aol.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Enough! I'm sorry, already! Message-ID: <951011221917_121842791-+AT+-mail04.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 95-10-09 23:11:16 EDT, you write: >Is it safe to come out yet? > Excuse my humor, but on national coming out day.....sure why not!!!! >I just want to say that I did NOT in any way, shape, or form mean to >start that religion thread going. My thanks to those who came to my >defense and said (a whole heck of a lot more eloquently) what I was >trying to. Oh well. > >I *thought* I was just whining to a bunch of friends, which I assumed >this relatively close-knit list to be. I'm sorry. > You were. But you have to realize that not everybody has the same opinion. And part of the list is to discuss things........There is nothing to be sorry about. >Again, I'm sorry for any inconvenience my post may have spawned. > >Lyn Belzer Take care Matt J ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Oct 1995 22:21:09 -0400 From: URAMESS-+AT+-aol.com Message-ID: <199510120221.WAA24603-+AT+-emout05.mail.aol.com> sage dated 95-10-09 01:17:09 EDT, you write: >I don't agree with most of Roman Catholicism, either (that's why I'm not >Catholic). I'm my own person, not a brood mare who has no say in my >freedoms, and I don't believe that all gay people are going to rot in Hell >because of their preferences, and I don't...I can go on and on. But I think >that what Aphael was trying to say is that she felt that this was a list >that had some tolerance, that would accept the beliefs of a person, even if >they don't agree. Such a condemnation of what may be her faith is a bit >harsh, IMHO. > >Stacy Hunt DuVall >duvall.23-+AT+-osu.edu Stacey, I agree, I try to be as tolerant as possible, but my point is this: Don't complain about something and expect warm fuzzies all the time. Yes. This list is very tolerant. We need to be. But if one is unable to accept criticism, or a rebuttale............well, I don't know what to say there. I think that we are all friends here and we all try to see each others views. Religion can/is a very personal and touchy subject. I think that is why we saw tempers flare. It would be nice if this world did take on Valdemars creed that there is no one true way. I think that as a whole society would be able to get a lot more accomplished and there would certainly be less wars (or ethnic cleansings)..... Clear Skies to all Matt J I wish that homosexuals were born with a little horn in the middle of their forehead so we couldn't hide so easily. At least if you can't hide, you have to stand up and fight. -- Harvey Firestein. NATIONAL COMING OUT DAY ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Oct 1995 22:18:57 EST From: owl To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re:Misty's Music Message-ID: <605C66931-+AT+-main.rmwc.edu> Regarding the "if you like this...." thread, if you liked Tempest you might also like the Scottish bands Run Rig and Wolfstone. Wolfstone is available from Green Linnet records, but Run Rig is a big harder to find this side of the Atlantic--although IMHO its worth the trouble. Owl "I never let my schooling interfere with my education" Mark Twain ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Oct 1995 22:35:24 -0400 From: URAMESS-+AT+-aol.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Catholic Bashing and All That Jazz Message-ID: <951011221915_121842767-+AT+-mail02.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 95-10-09 01:55:25 EDT, you write: >Why not work to solve the problem, instead if wasting time arguing about >who or what caused it? >Having said that, I suggest we get back to the real topic. >'S e do bheatha > >Kaatje Easier said than done. A lot of people in the "church" have the attitude don't rock the boat. And if it aint broke don't fix it. What they fail to realize is that it is broke for more people than they care to realize. Matt J ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Oct 95 13:47:53 EST From: mealink-+AT+-syd.au.swissbank.com (Kerry Mealing) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Re RE kal'enedral Message-ID: <9510120347.AA11696-+AT+-syd.au.swissbank.com> > On Wed, 11 Oct 1995 s003yms-+AT+-desire.wright.edu wrote: > > maybe the companion looked offended but it seems she may have done just > > that with Trevalen and Dawnfire, using the shape of a vorcel hawk instead > > of a horse (hawk would pass through the tayledras as well as the > > shin'a'in unnoticed) Clarification (though I didn't write the original message): The thread was about the Star-eyed creating companions, only sable not white. She half-jokingly says she might in OathB.... (no idea which) and the companion on the spot belonging to the heir (R...) gave her a most offended look. The person who wrote above was presumably indicating that the Star-Eyed had indeed created something much like the companions, only in hawk-form. Now, I don't agree myself - the half-in-the-spirit-world thing doesn't fit & they're referred to as avatars as distinct from the black-clad Kal'enedral. Companions are wholly in the mortal world as I understand it. Anyway, that's what the post was about I think. :) Kerry... wondering why the devil he has no trouble putting snippets of threads together but can't remember names to save his life. -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -- Kerry J Mealing mealink-+AT+-syd.au.swissbank.com "Curse the darkness? Hell, no! Where's that flamethrower.." ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Oct 1995 00:04:21 -0400 From: duvall.23-+AT+-postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu (Stacy Hunt DuVall) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: RE: Kal'enedral Message-ID: <199510120404.AAA28793-+AT+-postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu> < snippage> >>> > About the discussion that Companions are reincarnated Heralds. >>Of course, Starwolf could be right TOO. If Heralds are given a choice >>when they die, surely not all of them take that option?? Okay, I'll >>refute myself here, given the highly developed sense of DUTY in Heralds >>maybe they all WOULD choose to return as a Companion. >> > > Here's a question for you; a Herald dies, and is given the choice >to come back as a Companion. He does, serves for a while, and then dies as >a Companion. What happens next? Well, I think that they're probably offered the choice to become a Companion again. After all, they have _much_ more experience this time around. However, I think that most Companions may be a bit tired after their stint, so they may want to rest a while (you know, looking after us foolish humans :-) Has there ever been anything from the books to suggest some one besides a former Herald becoming a Companion (besides Grove Born, of course)? I can't remember from the top of my head. Perhaps others who have been dedicated in the service of Valdemar are offered the option (Bards, Healers, Guards, ect.)... Ah, well. Back to studying. It really is more fun to think about this than studying about vacuum systems :-(. Stacy Hunt DuVall duvall.23-+AT+-osu.edu "Life is a big wild crazy tossed salad, but you don't eat it, no sir! You live it! Isn't it great?"-The Tick ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Oct 1995 22:35:53 -0700 (PDT) From: "Kristin A. Ruhle" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Misty's Music Message-ID: <199510120535.AA20616-+AT+-foxtrot.rahul.net> > > Starwolf wrote: > (I snipped:) > > Cool a new topic! > > > > Anyway, I love Heather Alexander's voice and music, and > > have decided that "Wanderlust" is my favorite of all these. > > > > Of the direct Misty stuff, "ShadowStalker" is absolutely > > awesome, "By the Sword" is really good, though I prefer > > Heather to Meg Davis' voice. > > > Yes! Heather Alexander is great. _Flight of Fantasy_ is brilliant - > and being an elf fan I just loved Last Battle (or whatever it's > called. My memory and me don't get along. :) ) > > I adore Heather's music. I have seen both her and Leslie Fish in person...they even LOOK like Tarma and Kethry! Misty was even more overt in the C.J. Cherryh Merovingen Nights book and tape where Rif and Rat are sort of based on them. > >I haven't been able to really get into "Lovers, Lore and > > Loss" on which Misty sings a lot. Frankly, while she writes > > some really awesome music, her voice just isn't as good > > as some of these other folk. Plus, since Vanyel and > > Kero are my two favorites, obviously I like "their" music > > best. > > I rather liked Misty's voice - I think she's a good choice for > Queen Selenay. On the other hand, a good voice isn't exactly > mandatory - can somebody claim Leslie Fish's is _good_? Glorious, > damn impressive and expressive, definitely, but good? > Actually, I think the bit about Tarma in Oathbreakers having a voice like a long time chain smoker is a sort of in joke aimed at a particular person! > > I use this stuff as background music to my > > workday a lot, and HH&H has some very grating songs, like > > the two Sun & Shadow songs. > > Whyfor? I think they're lovely! Even if a bit long, but then again, > they are supposed to be ballads. Though Sun & Shadow is impossible to > play on the guitar the way it's written. At least for me. > > My vote is also for the Sun and Shadow songs being beautiful, but then I am not a musician and have nothing like perfect pitch; perhaps some people are more sensitive to the production quality and don't like the songs for that reason? > > Any other suggestions about music from groups similar to > > Tempest are eagerly solicited. > > There's Phoenyx... but they disbanded and the album _Keepers of the > Flame_ is out of print. Please, if somebody knows where to get the > thing, tellmetellmetellme!!! I tragically lost my copy of the CD, and > it's really good. Heather Alexander really shines on it. > There's a Swedish-Finnish band called Hedningarna ("the Pagans") that > does a great job of combining modern sounds with old music. It's > amazing - some more solid citizens, like the Religious Reich, would > probably want to burn the tape, though. > > There is a group called Avalon Rising in the SF Bay area that is about to come out with a CD. I'll let folks know the address when it it out. You might also check out some of the other groups Firebird sells, like Boiled in Lead. Kristin ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Oct 1995 08:30:55 EET From: "Sanna Koulu" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: RE: Kal'enedral Message-ID: <223B8E74533-+AT+-otdk.helsinki.fi> Stacy Hunt DuVall wrote: (liberally snipped, about Companions as reincarnated Heralds) > >>Of course, Starwolf could be right TOO. If Heralds are given a choice > >>when they die, surely not all of them take that option?? Okay, I'll > >>refute myself here, given the highly developed sense of DUTY in Heralds > >>maybe they all WOULD choose to return as a Companion. Just a point, I think that would indicate unHeraldic kind of traha/hubris - I mean, they hardly would think "sheesh, I have to go back, nobody except me can do the job". Okay, there's Vanyel, but he was a special case (nice understatement there ). There's new people born all the time, of whom some are Heraldic material. While taking care of the mortal world is a noble task, I think the souls wouldn't want to stick with it forever - they're _meant_ to go on (otherwise, why would Havens exist?) - to hold back would be stagnating and cowardly. > > > > > Here's a question for you; a Herald dies, and is given the choice > >to come back as a Companion. He does, serves for a while, and then dies as > >a Companion. What happens next? > > Well, I think that they're probably offered the choice to become a Companion > again. After all, they have _much_ more experience this time around. > However, I think that most Companions may be a bit tired after their stint, > so they may want to rest a while (you know, looking after us foolish humans :-) It might also be emotionally taxing for the Companions. The Herald/Companion bond is very close, so they might be a bit cautious about bonding again with a different person. I'd guess they're given the same choices as Heralds do - go on to Havens, be born as Companions or (possibly) be born as a human, kyree, hertasi etc. Do the souls get memory-wiped at rebirth? > Has there ever been anything from the books to suggest some one besides a > former Herald becoming a Companion (besides Grove Born, of course)? I can't > remember from the top of my head. Perhaps others who have been dedicated in > the service of Valdemar are offered the option (Bards, Healers, Guards, ect.)... I think it seems a bit unlikely, since Bards, for example, haven't experienced the Companion-bond. OTOH there's no reason they couldn't - though maybe they need Gifts to be Companions: the bond does require some Gift at least on the Herald side. > > Ah, well. Back to studying. It really is more fun to think about this than > studying about vacuum systems :-(. Oh, yes. -Seanna ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Oct 1995 08:42:05 +0000 (GMT) From: jc-+AT+-crosfield.co.uk (Jerry Cullingford) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Vrondi etc. Message-ID: <9510120842.AA10402-+AT+-crosfield.co.uk> > which implies that > it couldn't just recognise him as a Herald (and therefore authorised). Ah - but don't forget he was (a) out of uniform, and (b) not riding a companion at the time. Maybe the Vrondi find it easier to recognise the companiom :-) -- _|_ / | Jerry Cullingford jc-+AT+-crosfield.co.uk (Work) \_|_ jc-+AT+-selune.demon.co.uk (Home) \__/ Hemel Hempstead, UK jerry-+AT+-shell.portal.com (alternate) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Oct 1995 07:57:48 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine Osborne To: mercedes lackey list Subject: again, three things: Vanyel covers, survey, NCOD Message-ID: First: Sundancer (that's me!) is doing an informal survey. How many people on this lackeylist are pagans? email me your response by next thursday and I'll put the results together for the list. It seems there are a fair amount of us... Second: I just got my Vanyel books back and pounced on them. Midway through, I stopped to read and look at the cover of Magic's Pawn. I was disgusted all over again. First: the cover blurb is obviously insanely incorrect. Who writes these things? Second: Who is the naked woman? I'm assuming the man's face is Tylendel. Does anyone else have problems/wish to comment on the Vanyel covers? Finally: Happy national coming out day, everyone! Bi and proud, I\/ Catherine Osborne "I will not go down to I\/ Sundancer posterity talking bad I cosborne-+AT+-sidwell.edu grammar." I http://www.sidwell.edu/~cosborne/ --Disraeli ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Oct 1995 08:42:53 -0500 (EST) From: s003yms-+AT+-desire.wright.edu To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Message-ID: AIDS> i think this was discovered in the early 80's or late70's but the ommunity as a whole didnt learn about it till much later...ive read that there was a frozen blood sample from the 50's that was thawed and tested paoitive for hiv. ill ask one of my profs for the exact date on the discovery though. surplus companions> there are probably surplus companions at this time because there were a lot of herald mages getting ready to be discovered Trevalen and Dawnfire> the passage i was referring to is in the mage winds book ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Oct 1995 08:15:20 -0500 (CDT) From: "Cecile S. Ueltschey" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: RE: Kal'enedral Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Oct 1995, David K. Storrs wrote: > > > >On Wed, 11 Oct 1995, Sanna Koulu wrote: > >> > >> > > >> > (I snipped so much that nothing's left ) > >> >(from Starwolf's post) > >> > About the discussion that Companions are reincarnated Heralds. > >> > > >> > I think that there are 3 types of Companions, not 2. > >> > > >> > There are the Grove Born, who seem to be "higher" guardian > >> > spirits. > >> > > >> > There are reincarnated Heralds, > >> > > >> > BUT! I think that there are extremely few Grove Born, > > > >> > the rest are simply lower guardian spirits, benign spirits of > >> > the ethereal planes. > > >Of course, Starwolf could be right TOO. If Heralds are given a choice > >when they die, surely not all of them take that option?? Okay, I'll > >refute myself here, given the highly developed sense of DUTY in Heralds > >maybe they all WOULD choose to return as a Companion. > > >Yes, folks its true, more questions, few answers! Fun thread, tho! > > > >Zhai'helleva > >Cecile > > > > Here's a question for you; a Herald dies, and is given the choice > to come back as a Companion. He does, serves for a while, and then dies as > a Companion. What happens next? > Cruel, Dave, real cruel. But a GOOD question? IF its only CERTAIN Heralds that takes that Choice (like Savil, etc., who are needed at certain points in history), perhaps they can choose again, to come back at a time of Valdemar's need? At the moment, I am leaning towards the theory that not all Heralds choose to return as Companions. Only those with experience &/or talents that would aid Valdemar in times of distress - and that they would appear at an appropriate time to Choose their Herald, not be immediately reincarnated as a Companion just after their death. Nearly all the reincarnated spirits we know as Companions in Selenay's reign were Heralds in Vanyel's time. Now, have they been continuously reincarnated or were they reincarnated as the appropriate foals were born so they could Choose the necessary Heralds, in time for those Heralds to be trained and mature in their gifts and talents? Of course, we don't know about many other periods of Valdemar's history, but.... something to chew on! Good morning, everyone! Cecile ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Oct 1995 06:16:36 -0700 From: wdjpej-+AT+-ix.netcom.com (William Jones ) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re:Misty's Music Message-ID: <199510121316.GAA14147-+AT+-ix4.ix.netcom.com> You wrote: While we're on the subject of Misty's Music.... I can't figure out the meaning of the song "Draw the Circle" on the By the Sword soundtrack... Mabey I'm just dense, but it almost sounds like a kind of incantation to me! Draw the circle 'tween two worlds. Celestial fires to clense the girl. One to watch, and one to pray, and one to bear her soul away. The moon is every woman's friend, to her your goodness can decend (?) So tonight in visions see the emblems of her destiny. - Shadow-Lover A sociopath with no restraints can become anything.. Amorality frees her to be universally perfect, a charming chamelion with a scorpion's tail... -Color of Night ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Oct 1995 6:30:42 -0600 (MDT) From: RUNDLE-+AT+-wilma.bcasd.az.honeywell.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re:Misty's Music Message-ID: <951012063042.21a38115-+AT+-wilma.bcasd.az.honeywell.com> >>Seanna wrote: >>I rather liked Misty's voice - I think she's a good choice for >>Queen Selenay. On the other hand, a good voice isn't exactly >>mandatory - can somebody claim Leslie Fish's is _good_? Glorious, >>damn impressive and expressive, definitely, but good? >I agree so much with you, Seanna! When I first heard Misty sing I thought, >yick, stop it, lady! But although she is not as lyric and tone perfect and >Heather Alexander or the other leading ladies, I learned to stop comparing >her with anyone else. The same with Leslie Fish. I was horrified at first >by her voice which (to my untrained ears) seemed flat, nasal and unpleasant. >But as soon as I began to appreciate these ladies as individuals, listening >to them both became a pleasure as I saw the characters they were singing >come to life. I do agree that she is perfect as Selanay. In fact, I was quite suprised the first time I heard the songs of Selenay. However, that doesn't mean I like them. Her voice may be perfect for Selenay, but that doesn't mean it doesn't grate on me. It does. Tremendously. As far as Leslie Fish, isn't she the one pushing that big old spot of land in the middle of the Arizona desert where we can "run free as naked as the day we were born, smoking what we want, when we want, without interference?" Etc.? I heard her at a recent con, and I've heard her a few times before, and she seems to be constantly pushing this idea of hers in people's faces. While I don't disagree with her right to do these activities, I find it terribly irresponsible to be talking about the freedom to do drugs in front of a large crowd of teens and pre-teens. What adults do among themselves, from multiple marriages all the way to shooting up hemlock is up to them. But since many of the things she wants to do out there in the desert are illegal in current society, I don't think she should be preaching them to kids - and believe me, her song about this place she's trying to create is definitely preaching. Sorry to get on my high companion I was just very angry at her pulling this crap. To be honest, I wasn't that impressed with her music, either. Perhaps that was a reflection of my annoyance, but she didn't start preaching till the end of her set, so... You guys think her music is really worthwhile? Why? (that isn't "why in the heck would you think something so stupid!, that's "hmmm, these people seem to share my musical tastes, if they think she's good, maybe I need to listen again, I wonder why they like her?) StarWolf - who hopes she hasn't irredeamably offended yet another individual :( ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Oct 1995 10:52:17 -0400 From: duvall.23-+AT+-postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu (Stacy Hunt DuVall) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Sciences in Valdemar Message-ID: <199510121452.KAA11156-+AT+-postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu> Hey! Has anyone else wodered about the "level" of the sciences in Valdemar? We know that they have mathematicians, engineers, and a pretty good grasp of human anatomy and physiology (after all, in one of the _Aarow's_ books, one of the healers refers to a burnt Herald as having pretty bad nerve damage). What about other physical sciences? Did they not develop because of the availability of magic? Hmmm, that doesn't really work in the case of Valdemar, since magic wasn't an option for a long time. Oh well, I'm just speculating again :-) Stacy Hunt DuVall duvall.23-+AT+-osu.edu "Yes, evil comes in many forms, whether it be a man-eating cow or Joseph Stalin, but you can't let the package hide the pudding! Evil is just plain bad! You don't cotton to it. You gotta smack it in the nose with the rolled-up newspaper of goodness! Bad dog! Bad dog!"-The Tick ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Oct 1995 11:10:25 -0500 (CDT) From: "Cecile S. Ueltschey" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: RE: Kal'enedral Message-ID: On Thu, 12 Oct 1995, Sunfalcon wrote: > > On Wed, 11 Oct 1995, Cecile S. Ueltschey wrote: > > > I can't imagine there being a "fixed" number of Companions, > > but it seems at some point, as more Heralds die and their spirits choose > > to be reincarnated wouldn't there be more spirits than Companions?? > > I certainly hope not. Can you imagine what sort of > Companion a Herald like Lores (the blockheaded one from Magic's Promise) > would make? I very much doubt that all Heralds are offered the choice of > incarantion as a Companion, since at least some would have died so young > as to be relatively useless (in terms of practical experience, at least) to > their Chosen. Oh, Havens! I hadn't thought about *Lores* - YEEEESH! I guess some Heralds ARE better than others, I was trying to avoid saying that, given Van's & Stefan's effort to assert that Herald-Mages werent' BETTER than "ordinary" Heralds. > Which brings me to my next point. The most persuasive argument I > can think of for the > "some-Companions-are-Guardian-spirits-on-earth-for-the-first-time" theory > is the fact that some of them make serious mistakes, mistakes that a > lifetime's worth of experience might have prevented. Very good, point! Well, that throws a monkey-wrench into the Grove-born arguments too - inexperience would not necessarily be a hallmark of a GBC, just a "new spirit". Maybe its that the GBCs would be "sent" for a specific purpose or Herald (like the MOH/MOC, or Elspeth as the first HM since Vanyel), reincarnated-spirit (foaled) Companions for special circumstances, and new-spirit (foaled) Companions for all the other times. I like it, Sunfalcon, I like it! > Now I have some questions of my own, both of which involve > spoilers from Storm Warning (and probably Storm Rising, too, though I > haven't read it yet). (me either) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Okay, here we go. . . > Did anyone else find the whole reaction to Florian's announcement > a bit odd? Here we have a Companion calmly saying that he can function > as a Master-level Mage, and, aside from Elspeth's jaw dropping, NO ONE > SEEMS TO REALLY CARE. I find this very disturbing, especially the fact > that since magic has only recently "returned" to Valdemar, Florian (a > Mage-Gifted Companion) was born before the prohibition was lifted. But was Florian born (as in foaled)?? Could he be Grove-born?? All we know is that he is UnChosen - and does not Choose Karal, and is a Master Mage. Where did he come from?? Or is he a reincarnated Herald-Mage from a time we haven't read about? After all, we have Savil/Sayvil - perhaps Savil retained her Mage-gift as Sayvil but never used it? Remember, as long as a mage was not USING their Gift, the vrondi didn't bother them. > Either the Powers That Be were able to see far enough into the future > that they knew a Companion of these skills would be useful (ten or more > years down the line seems like awfully powerful Foresight, though), What about Selenay's remarks about the necessary Gifts seem to show up not long before they are needed? Could be the same mechanism. or > else (presumably) Mage-Gifted Companions have been running around ever > since Vanyel died. Did Valdemar endure the loss of magic for nothing, > since properly gifted Companions should have been able to train the > appropriate Heralds? > Not for nothing, for Valdemar learned to rely on other means to accomplish things. Have we seen any direct evidence of anything like the Valdemaren engineers in other realms? Because they didn't have "magic" (mage powers), they developed (for want of a better word, don't flame please) science. But they also used the Heraldic gifts as well, and developed them further, I would imagine, as time went on. Remember, Vanyel was very concerned about the people's perceptions that Herald-Mages were BETTER than "ordinary" Heralds which would have inhibited the Heralds' effectiveness. Also, there was some feeling to that effect even in the Collegium. I think THAT was the main reason magic "left" Valdemar. Given the general "non-interference" of the Companions (and habit of withholding information until ASKED or needed), it seems to fit that they wouldn't volunteer to train potential Mages. That's all for now, I think! ;-) Cecile ------------------------------ End of MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 174 *********************************