MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 189 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re: MERCEDES-LACKEY digest 185 by Gyrfalcon 2) Villains (was Re: Tremane) by RUNDLE-+AT+-wilma.bcasd.az.honeywell.com 3) Re: Villains (was Re: Tremane) by mel (Melanie Dymond Harper) 4) Re: Villains by gjuka-+AT+-cnw.com (Gjuka) 5) Re: Villains (was Re: Tremane) by RUNDLE-+AT+-wilma.bcasd.az.honeywell.com 6) Storm Rising by pederson-+AT+-Aiogc.Arco.COM (Traci Pederson - Berger and Co) 7) Re: Villains (was Re: Tremane) by "Cecile S. Ueltschey" 8) Re: Villains (was Re: Tremane) by "Aphrael" 9) Re: Villains (was Re: Tremane) by mel (Melanie Dymond Harper) 10) Re: Villains (was Re: Tremane) by jc-+AT+-crosfield.co.uk (Jerry Cullingford) 11) Re: Villains (was Re: Tremane) by Jennifer Broekman 12) Re: Storm Rising by Adrienne York 13) Too Dim Villains (was Re: Tremane) by Gyrfalcon 14) Re: an author you might like... by Mat Timmerman 15) Re: A new book to recommend by Betsers-+AT+-aol.com 16) Re: Too Dim Villains (was Re: Tremane) by duvall.23-+AT+-postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu (Stacy Hunt DuVall) 17) Re: Storm Rising by David 18) Re: Too Dim Villains (was Re: Tremane) by CHONNI 19) Bradley anthology by John Oliver 20) Re: A new book to recommend by Jennifer Broekman 21) Re: A new book to recommend by RUNDLE-+AT+-wilma.bcasd.az.honeywell.com 22) Green Lion Trilogy Book 3 by Jean Morrill 23) Re: Too Dim Villains (was Re: Tremane) by dstorrs-+AT+-crossover.com (David K. Storrs) 24) Re: Too Dim Villains (was Re: Tremane) by dstorrs-+AT+-crossover.com (David K. Storrs) 25) Re: Too Dim Villains (was Re: Tremane) by Mat Timmerman ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 25 Oct 1995 09:40:36 -0400 (EDT) From: Gyrfalcon To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: MERCEDES-LACKEY digest 185 Message-ID: > GYRFALCON> try http://eddie.beve.blacksburg.va.us/~duncan/sca/htm Okay! Okay, I've found a working page. Thank you, --Gyrfalcon =======================msowers-+AT+-menger.eecs.stevens-tech.edu=================== Magic still exists. We have only to reach out and touch it, it is a part of the very fabric of the world. When our belief of magic completely dies this universe shall die. Because that magic; Hope, Dreams, Love, Beauty, Wonder, Belief, and Discovery are what make us a people. They are all part of a great Art whose workings are still a mystery but whose applications can be seen every day. If we ever lose the Art mankind shall not last the day. Let the magic that is in us roam free in our work, play, in each other, and most of all in ourselves. Let it roam free or it will die. ============================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Oct 1995 6:54:57 -0600 (MDT) From: RUNDLE-+AT+-wilma.bcasd.az.honeywell.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Villains (was Re: Tremane) Message-ID: <951025065457.2240c95b-+AT+-wilma.bcasd.az.honeywell.com> I think most books require a villain of sorts. Otherwise, there is no conflict, right? However, I feel that sometimes the best villains are not evil at all, simply two good guys who are opposed because they want different things or feel the solution to their problem is opposed. But as far as I can tell, every Misty villain is a cardboard cutout. Two-dimensional. Look at the serrated edge books. All the villains are pure evil with no motive beyond power and greed. They are completely interchangeable. Whereas Talia, Vanyel, even a minor character like Randale are very much three-dimensional, and cannot be confused in a lineup, every Misty villain I can think of can be substituted for another, and not change a thing. Their motives and personalities are the same. StarWolf ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Oct 1995 14:39:16 GMT From: mel (Melanie Dymond Harper) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Villains (was Re: Tremane) Message-ID: <9510251439.AA06418-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk> Starwolf said: > But as far as I can tell, every Misty villain is a cardboard > cutout. Two-dimensional. Look at the serrated edge books. > > All the villains are pure evil with no motive beyond power > and greed. They are completely interchangeable. Whereas > Talia, Vanyel, even a minor character like Randale are very > much three-dimensional, and cannot be confused in a lineup, > every Misty villain I can think of can be substituted for > another, and not change a thing. Their motives and > personalities are the same. OK, let's take some examples. How about the villain(s) in "Burning Water"? Power and greed, yes, but definitely not your run of the mill villains. Or the Leshara family within "Magic's Pawn" -- that definitely looked like people wanting different things (since Tylendel's family, whose name I am blanking on, were by no means innocent). Could you see Withen Ashkevron as a villain? I dare say Vanyel could. Was Talia herself a villain in "Arrow's Flight"? I admit that most of these aren't the Bad Guys per se, but minor not-too-good characters. The problem is that we usually see the Bad Guys from the Good Guys' point of view; their methods, then, tend to overshadow their beliefs. Also, what else is going to motivate an evil character _other_ than power or greed? Different beliefs are all very well, but when you're trying to convert large numbers of people -- or kill them because their beliefs are different -- then that comes perilously close to the "power" aspect (in my book, at least). Mel. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Oct 1995 08:41:04 -0800 From: gjuka-+AT+-cnw.com (Gjuka) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Villains Message-ID: <9510251530.AA02684-+AT+-baker> >I think most books require a villain of sorts. Otherwise, >there is no conflict, right? However, I feel that sometimes >the best villains are not evil at all, simply two good guys >who are opposed because they want different things or feel >the solution to their problem is opposed. > >But as far as I can tell, every Misty villain is a cardboard >cutout. Two-dimensional. Look at the serrated edge books. > >All the villains are pure evil with no motive beyond power >and greed. They are completely interchangeable. Whereas >Talia, Vanyel, even a minor character like Randale are very >much three-dimensional, and cannot be confused in a lineup, >every Misty villain I can think of can be substituted for >another, and not change a thing. Their motives and >personalities are the same. > >StarWolf Maybe the moral of the story is that good people (albeit occasionally tormented) make more interesting people than evil and self centered ones? It seems like thats what Misty is trying to say. Its hard to develop a villan without starting to like them a little bit (Lestat ext...) Villans are not required for a novel or story, only conflict is needed. 3 main conflics are- man against man, man against nature, man against self. It sounds like so far Mage Storms is leaning towards man against nature. Villans are only a vehicle for conflict. -Colette gjuka-+AT+-cnw.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Oct 1995 8:48:01 -0600 (MDT) From: RUNDLE-+AT+-wilma.bcasd.az.honeywell.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Villains (was Re: Tremane) Message-ID: <951025084801.2240b938-+AT+-wilma.bcasd.az.honeywell.com> >Starwolf said: >> But as far as I can tell, every Misty villain is a cardboard >> cutout. Two-dimensional. Look at the serrated edge books. >> >> All the villains are pure evil with no motive beyond power >> and greed. They are completely interchangeable. Whereas >> Talia, Vanyel, even a minor character like Randale are very >> much three-dimensional, and cannot be confused in a lineup, >> every Misty villain I can think of can be substituted for >> another, and not change a thing. Their motives and >> personalities are the same. Mel replies: >OK, let's take some examples. How about the villain(s) in "Burning Water"? >Power and greed, yes, but definitely not your run of the mill villains. >Or the Leshara family within "Magic's Pawn" -- that definitely looked like >people wanting different things (since Tylendel's family, whose name I am >blanking on, were by no means innocent). Could you see Withen Ashkevron as >a villain? I dare say Vanyel could. Was Talia herself a villain in >"Arrow's Flight"? How about the Leshara, or the villain in Burning Water? Do we know anything about them? A little. All of it from the way the hero(es,ines) see them. What if, for a bizarre example, the Leshara weren't really trying to destroy Staven and his family, but rather were defending themselves against something Staven or one of the other members of his family had done? Yes I know, the books don't say anything like that, but the only info we have is from Tylendel, who's obviously biased and also not on the scene. What I'm saying is that the villains don't have much dimension. They are generic. Bad guys. Black hats. Period. Whereas the good guys come right out of the pages at you. You know them. You like them. They are almost real. The villains are cut from the same cookie sheet. It's as if Misty is saying, ooh, I think I need a villain here. I think this time he should have black hair. - sound of cookie cutter hitting cookie dough, followed by the scratching sound of a black pen coloring the hair black I'm not disagreeing that it's very difficult to give villains some motivation other than greed and powerhungryness (love that word!). But it is possible. Bad guys may be misguided good guys. Or simply grey guys doing things for grey reasons. That's my complaint. >I admit that most of these aren't the Bad Guys per se, but minor not-too-good >characters. The problem is that we usually see the Bad Guys from the Good >Guys' point of view; their methods, then, tend to overshadow their >beliefs. Absolutely. I can't disagree at all here. >Also, what else is going to motivate an evil character _other_ than power or >greed? Different beliefs are all very well, but when you're trying to convert >large numbers of people -- or kill them because their beliefs are different -- >then that comes perilously close to the "power" aspect (in my book, at least). How about the guy who wants to protect . Manages to get a law passed to protect . Farmer John on the other hand, needs to farm his land. Unfortunately, of his 200 acres, 1/10 of one acre on his farm is inhabited (unbeknownst to him) by . By accident he runs over one of . By the law passed by the first guy, farmer John loses his farm. Does that make first guy a bad guy? Or a good guy who didn't think through the results of his actions? Is Farmer John good or bad? Doesn't it depend a lot on how you see things? Most people are shades of grey. Very few of us are good or bad entirely. Saints and Devils are extremely rare. So most villains are really grey guys who happen to do something very bad because they wanted something badly enough that their methods crossed the line, or grey guys who wanted to do something good but their methods caused a very bad result. Isn't that what "real" villains are? StarWolf ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Oct 1995 10:41:52 -0500 From: pederson-+AT+-Aiogc.Arco.COM (Traci Pederson - Berger and Co) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Storm Rising Message-ID: <9510251541.AA07657-+AT+-europium.arco.com> Has anyone read this book yet? I just saw it in the bookstores and was wondering if it is going to be worth $27 w/tax or should I wait a month and get it from my bookclub for half of that. Thanks, Traci' pederson-+AT+-aiogc.arco.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Oct 1995 11:13:18 -0500 (CDT) From: "Cecile S. Ueltschey" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Villains (was Re: Tremane) Message-ID: On Wed, 25 Oct 1995 RUNDLE-+AT+-wilma.bcasd.az.honeywell.com wrote: > I think most books require a villain of sorts. Otherwise, > there is no conflict, right? However, I feel that sometimes > the best villains are not evil at all, simply two good guys > who are opposed because they want different things or feel > the solution to their problem is opposed. > > But as far as I can tell, every Misty villain is a cardboard > cutout. Two-dimensional. Look at the serrated edge books. > > All the villains are pure evil with no motive beyond power > and greed. They are completely interchangeable. Whereas > Talia, Vanyel, even a minor character like Randale are very > much three-dimensional, and cannot be confused in a lineup, > every Misty villain I can think of can be substituted for > another, and not change a thing. Their motives and > personalities are the same. > > StarWolf > I find this true of a lot of fantasy novels, especially series that MAYBE stretch out too long (e.g. the Shannara books - which I DO like, BTW - come to mind). Most people don't WANT to "get into the heads" of the villains. I'm not sure that Falconsbane is a good example of a "cookie cutter" villain tho, the twist with And'esha/Ma'ar was different and to me shed some interesting light on his motivations - but, yes, he fit the pattern UNTIL we found out a little about his history. What is the quote in SW (by Tremane, I think) about "de-humanizing" your enemy so that they are easier to hate?? I also think that the "oversimplification" of good/evil-hero/villain is a hearkening back to "once upon a time" type stories, simple and clear-cut - very different from the "real" world. It is part of the "fantasy tradition" if you will. Maybe in the Storms series, there WON'T be a great enemy per se...."we have met the enemy and he is us" type thing (but then, I've only read Storm Warning.....) Oh, it's too early to be so philisophical. Am I making sense? Cecile ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Oct 1995 12:42:22 EST From: "Aphrael" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Villains (was Re: Tremane) Message-ID: >every Misty villain I can think of can be substituted for >another, and not change a thing. Their motives and >personalities are the same. I hate to say it, but now that you mention it, you do have a point. You have to keep in mind, though, that it HAS been the same villain, just in a different body for a while now: Ma'ar, Leareth, Mornelithe Falconsbane. And Hulda and Ancar fit right in with that group. I haven't read the Serrated Edge books, so I'll just have to take your word for it. But the Di Tregarde books are pretty varied: in Burning Water, you have a god trying to reemerge and retake the land (I didn't see that as greed: he was trying to take back what was technically his), in Children of the night you have an emotional vampire, and a villainess in Jinx High who really was only concerned with her survival. Also, in ... oh, damn! I just pulled a blank on the book title! Well, the one with Jen Talldeer in it. Again, a villain with a "noble" end using means that do more harm than good. (I don't count the construction guy as the villain in that one, he's more of the evil-head-henchman type) Well, I'm not sure what I'm trying to say here, but to boil it all down, yes, villains are one of Misty's weaker points, but she compensates well. :) Lyn 16 days Lyn Belzer * P.O. Box 234 St. Bonaventure, NY 14778 * 716/379-3034 ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* Then as an Angell, face and wings/Of aire, not pure as it, yet pure doth weare,/So thy love may be my loves sphere;/Just such disparitie/As is twixt Air and Angells puritie,/T'wixt womens love, and mens will ever bee. -John Donne, from "Aire and Angells" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Oct 1995 16:48:53 GMT From: mel (Melanie Dymond Harper) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Villains (was Re: Tremane) Message-ID: <9510251648.AA09619-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk> > How about the Leshara, or the villain in Burning Water? Do we know > anything about them? A little. All of it from the way the hero(es,ines) > see them. What if, for a bizarre example, the Leshara weren't really > trying to destroy Staven and his family, but rather were defending > themselves against something Staven or one of the other members of > his family had done? Yes I know, the books don't say anything like > that, but the only info we have is from Tylendel, who's obviously > biased and also not on the scene. > Actually, we do get something along those lines, from Tylendel, if I remember rightly. One of the Leshara kids had been killed -- accidentally, but during a raid -- by one of Tylendel's family; things seemed to have escalated from there. In that case, both sides were equally in the wrong, because they had kept the feud going long after it should have died a natural death (so to speak). What Tylendel did was the equivalent of letting the baby loose with a loaded gun -- he had access to weaponry that was _much_ more powerful than that possessed by the other side. But anyhow ... > How about the guy who wants to protect here>. Manages to get a law passed to protect . Farmer John on > the other hand, needs to farm his land. Unfortunately, of his 200 acres, > 1/10 of one acre on his farm is inhabited (unbeknownst to him) by . > By accident he runs over one of . By the law passed by the first > guy, farmer John loses his farm. Does that make first guy a bad guy? Or > a good guy who didn't think through the results of his actions? Is Farmer > John good or bad? Doesn't it depend a lot on how you see things? Most > people are shades of grey. Very few of us are good or bad entirely. > Saints and Devils are extremely rare. So most villains are really grey > guys who happen to do something very bad because they wanted something > badly enough that their methods crossed the line, or grey guys who wanted > to do something good but their methods caused a very bad result. Most of the villains in Misty's books (probably excluding the Serrated Edge books, which I haven't read recently enough) are villains on a grand scale, though, threatening a whole country/people. If you're up at that level, you're already way past the "grey" stage. I think that this is a common thing with fantasy-type books -- you don't get the ordinary little 'grey' villains any more, you get the Black Villains who want to Take Over The World. :) Because they're less limited by what they can do (since they usually have magic), you tend to get 'em bigger and nastier. Were there any "grey" villains in Lord of the Rings? I'm not really disagreeing with you, by the way, Starwolf. I just think it's a more general problem, not limited to Misty's books... Mel. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Oct 1995 17:11:31 +0000 (GMT) From: jc-+AT+-crosfield.co.uk (Jerry Cullingford) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Villains (was Re: Tremane) Message-ID: <9510251711.AA02747-+AT+-crosfield.co.uk> > I'm not disagreeing that it's very difficult to give villains some motivation > other than greed and powerhungryness (love that word!). But it is possible. > Bad guys may be misguided good guys. Or simply grey guys doing things > for grey reasons. That's my complaint. Hmm. On one hand, that's one of the things that usually give Misty's stuff some of its distinctive flavour - things tend to be black and white, and Our Heroes are usually totally justified in stomping the opposition :-). This *does* tend to cause problems with the characterisation of the bad guys, but I don't see how - at least in the books so far - you could remove the moral certainty and still keep the flavour as attractive. On the other hand, if you like a world that's more shades of gray, instead of clearcut black and white, then see if you can track down some of Glenn Cooks _Black Company_ or _Dread Empire_ series - The black company stuff follows a mercenary company stuck between various opposing factions, none of which have a clear claim on the moral high ground, and the dread empire series has similar moral ambiguities - but in both series, the characters have believable motivations, and are mostly trying to do what they believe is best; Some of them may come across as 'Evil' at first (or second, or third glance :-) ), but even those may be doing what they do to prevent something worse. On the gripping hand, they're doing different things for different reasons - Cook's stuff is gritty, shades-of-gray real world stuff; there is no master plan or tidy solutions. Misty's stuff is more the mythic good-against-evil struggle; we're there to empathise with the human costs of the struggle and cheer the good guys on - not decide who we should be rooting for :-). The refreshingly clear-cut division between the sides is a key part of why the books work - If the heralds weren't good-beyond-any-doubt (and hence opposing Evil Nasty Things by definition) then *it wouldn't work*. If the heralds were just working for a particular country, and screwed up enough to notice (massacred the odd batch of incoming people, or stomped a set of basically good but misunderstood opponents, then the flavour would be totally different; it's not just the neat abilities and sacrifices for the cause that make the books, it's the fact that it's so obviously a *good* cause, and the opposition is so obviously *bad*. -Jerry -- _|_ / | Jerry Cullingford jc-+AT+-crosfield.co.uk (Work) \_|_ jc-+AT+-selune.demon.co.uk (Home) \__/ Hemel Hempstead, UK jerry-+AT+-shell.portal.com (alternate) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Oct 1995 13:14:38 -0400 (EDT) From: Jennifer Broekman To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Villains (was Re: Tremane) Message-ID: On Wed, 25 Oct 1995 RUNDLE-+AT+-wilma.bcasd.az.honeywell.com wrote: > I'm not disagreeing that it's very difficult to give villains some motivation > other than greed and powerhungryness (love that word!). But it is possible. > Bad guys may be misguided good guys. Or simply grey guys doing things > for grey reasons. That's my complaint. Misty has even done this: Ma'ar. Although we never really see him from anyone's viewpoint but Amberdrake's and Skan's, we do get to hear secondhand about his motivations via Urtho. One of his primary motivations was nationalism, which is why his people were devoted to him. > How about the guy who wants to protect here>. Manages to get a law passed to protect . Farmer John on > the other hand, needs to farm his land. Unfortunately, of his 200 acres, > 1/10 of one acre on his farm is inhabited (unbeknownst to him) by . > By accident he runs over one of . By the law passed by the first > guy, farmer John loses his farm. Does that make first guy a bad guy? Or > a good guy who didn't think through the results of his actions? Is Farmer > John good or bad? Doesn't it depend a lot on how you see things? Most It depends entirely on how you see things, so a novel written from the conserrvationist's point of view will probably paint Farmer John as a black hat interested only in his profit, while a novel written from Farmer John's point of view will probably paint the conservationist as a black hat lunatic. This doesn't mean the characters *are* black hats, just that any novel that keeps point of view with one character or set of characters is going to have a great deal of difficulty being overly generous towards the opposing camp, unless the POV characters really *are* saints. > Isn't that what "real" villains are? Yes, but real villains don't look grey when you get your information from a partisan. People aren't fair in their thoughts, in general, so if you look at a situation from a particular point of view, you're *going* to get the skewed perspective of the POV character(s), just as you would if you were listening to direct propaganda... Personally, I'd rather have to read between the lines to see that the villains are human (when they are), than have Misty put "(This is only how Talia/Skan/Tannim/Di sees this character. is really just a grey character doing what s/he deems best.)" after every chapter. Even if this wouldn't make the books twice as long, and therefore the wait between them twice as long, it's also boring. -jenneke jsb-+AT+-phantom.com new .sig in development ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Oct 1995 13:22:02 -0400 (EDT) From: Adrienne York To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Storm Rising Message-ID: On Wed, 25 Oct 1995, Traci Pederson - Berger and Co wrote: > > Has anyone read this book yet? I just saw it in the bookstores and was > wondering if it is going to be worth $27 w/tax or should I wait a month > and get it from my bookclub for half of that. > I bought it and my impulse is, unless you're dying for a Lackey fix, wait a bit. It's a good book, but not Magic's Price. If you want to read a good book, try "Freedom's Landing" by Anne McCaffrey. It's an awesome book, although the ending is too abrupt. ;];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];] ;] Adrienne York-Minor ;] ;] "There is no 'One, True Way'" Valdemaran Law Codes ;] ;] ayork-+AT+-simons-rock.edu ;] ;];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];] ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Oct 1995 13:33:39 -0400 (EDT) From: Gyrfalcon To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Too Dim Villains (was Re: Tremane) Message-ID: I do have to admit the Misty's villians seem to be lacking. They don't have motivations other than being the most nasty sunofabitch there is. It raises a question though... What do you want to see in a villian? A good set of 3d villians comes out of Robert Jordan's books. All of them have different personalities and motives, none of them make mistakes that are out of character. i.e. Falconsbane being stupid enough to strike out at E & D when they were on his borders. He survived their last trap. He should of suspected something. Ma'ar didn't survive two and a half millenia by being impatient, which is what caused Falconsbane to part company from us this first time. Okay... Poll time. What do you like to see in a "good" villan? Fair winds and skies, --Gyrfalcon =======================msowers-+AT+-menger.eecs.stevens-tech.edu=================== Magic still exists. We have only to reach out and touch it, it is a part of the very fabric of the world. When our belief of magic completely dies this universe shall die. Because that magic; Hope, Dreams, Love, Beauty, Wonder, Belief, and Discovery are what make us a people. They are all part of a great Art whose workings are still a mystery but whose applications can be seen every day. If we ever lose the Art mankind shall not last the day. Let the magic that is in us roam free in our work, play, in each other, and most of all in ourselves. Let it roam free or it will die. ============================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Oct 1995 14:55:49 -0400 (EDT) From: Mat Timmerman To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: an author you might like... Message-ID: <01HWV0FFQ12A9353DR-+AT+-vaxc.hofstra.edu> From: ristuben-+AT+-webstar.net (erik ristuben) >Regarding: >> >>I seriously recommend Guy Gavriel Kay, starting with, I think, "The >>Summer Tree". I adore books that make you want to cry (like all the MP >>books!) and this series definately did it for me. "Song for Arabornne" >>(pardon the spelling) is a good fantasy-medieval mix, if a bit grim at times. >> >>*********************************************************************** >> -Chonni Brightwolf > >Huzzah! I can't believe it! Someone else has read Guy Gavriel Kay! Even >better, someone has read The Summer Tree, The Wandering Fire and The Darkest >Road!! (pardon the exclaimation points, but I'm excited) I thought for sure >I was the only human on the planet (or at least in San Angelo Texas) that >has discovered the dark, agonizing stories of Mr. Kay. Has anyone read the >Lions of Al-Rassan or Tigana? They, like The Last Herald Mage series, will >tear out your heart and feed it to you in little ragged pieces. And for >those of use who love to cry, I would think most fans of Vanyel do!, these >stories are perfect. I just read the Fionavar Tapestry in June or so. There are lots of people who like GG Kay. In fact, the reason that I decided to try his writing was that just about every time someone asked for opinions on what to read while waiting for 's new book to come out, GG Kay was pretty high on the list. I haven't gotten around to reading his other work, though (too much reading for Anthropology 1 -- just finished Jane Goodall's chimpanzee book, _In the Shadow of Man_ last night).\ Mat T. -- Mat Timmerman accmjt-+AT+-vaxc.hofstra.edu "I don't care what you smell, just get in there." ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Oct 1995 15:24:07 -0400 From: Betsers-+AT+-aol.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: A new book to recommend Message-ID: <951025152405_54087378-+AT+-mail04.mail.aol.com> Charles DeLint's book about a house that is in modern day Canada and the spirit world is MOONHEART. He is one of my favorite authors too and I like his old stuff (GREENMANTLE) as much or more as the newer stories. A BIG THANK YOU to whoever reccommended the Tanya Huff urban fantasy books. They were great! If anyone has any other reccomendations on books similar in style to Misty's please speak up. I've really enjoyed all of the books and this list. A Bookworm til I die! Betsy Levandowski ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Oct 1995 15:32:06 -0400 From: duvall.23-+AT+-postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu (Stacy Hunt DuVall) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Too Dim Villains (was Re: Tremane) Message-ID: <199510251932.PAA20281-+AT+-postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu> On 10-25-95, Gyrfalcon wrote: >I do have to admit the Misty's villians seem to be lacking. They don't >have motivations other than being the most nasty sunofabitch there is. >It raises a question though... > What do you want to see in a villian? > snip > >What do you like to see in a "good" villan? Hmmm, I have to agree on the problems with Misty's villians. I'm talking about the real bad boys, not the grey guys like Tremane. "POWER POWER POWER" is a nice motive, but (to me, at least) the motives of the bad guys seems _manufactured_ just so we can see the strengths/cleverness of the good guys. Perhaps a little more time with the bad guys and a little more history of the bad guys through their eyes would give them more depth. > > >A good set of 3d villians comes out of Robert Jordan's books. > >All of them have different personalities and motives, none of them make >mistakes that are out of character. Jordan's bad guys are the best ;-). They're bad guys you like to spend some time on. Of course, he's had six books to give us really juicy bad guys. This is why I think if we had some more time with Misty's bad guys, they might _expand_ a litte more. Wistful sigh...how long 'till _Crown of Swords_ comes out?.... Stacy Hunt DuVall duvall.23-+AT+-osu.edu Physics warning label: "ATTENTION: Despite any other listing of product contents heron, the consumer is advised that , in actuality, this product consists of 99.99999999999% empty space." ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Oct 1995 20:47:52 BST From: David To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Storm Rising Message-ID: On Wed, 25 Oct 1995 16:40:22 GMT Traci Pederson - Berger and Co wrote: > Subject: Storm Rising > > Has anyone read this book yet? I just saw it in the bookstores and was > wondering if it is going to be worth $27 w/tax or should I wait a month > and get it from my bookclub for half of that. If you can afford it, get it. If you can't (or object to buying any book for that money), then get it from the library (or better still, a friend who bought it in hardback), read it and _if you liked it_ buy it for yourself! David. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Oct 1995 14:26:28 -0800 (PST) From: CHONNI To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Too Dim Villains (was Re: Tremane) Message-ID: On Wed, 25 Oct 1995, Gyrfalcon wrote: > A good set of 3d villians comes out of Robert Jordan's books. > > All of them have different personalities and motives, none of them make > mistakes that are out of character. > i.e. Falconsbane being stupid enough to strike out at E & D when > they were on his borders. He survived their last trap. He should of > suspected something. Ma'ar didn't survive two and a half millenia by > being impatient, which is what caused Falconsbane to part company from us > this first time. > Falconsbane wasn't being impatient, he was insane. Concepts like patience or strategy don't mean much to a man whose mind barely works. > Okay... Poll time. > > What do you like to see in a "good" villan? > Torment, fear, jealousy, cruelty and general anarchy. Oh, and insanity is good too. Basically, any characteristic you either don't like in yourself, or fear in others. Villians don't even have to be evil; a rabid dog is still a menace. And the mage storms dont' seem to be intentionally malignant; do hurricanes have grudges? Of course, I still have to read Storm Rising. *********************************************************************** -Chonni Brightwolf (Katherine Moll, student) University College of the Cariboo British Columbia, CANADA ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Oct 1995 07:39:13 +1000 From: John Oliver To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Bradley anthology Message-ID: <199510252139.HAA03308-+AT+-gass.cc.uow.edu.au> Slight off topic question. I've received a mail order catalogue for books. One is listed as "The Best of Marion Zimmer Bradley's Fantasy Magazine: Volume Two" Marion Zimmer Bradley and Elisebeth Waters (eds). Mercedes Lackey is listed as having a story included. Does anyone know which story? Thanks, John ******************************************************** * _--_|\ | jdo-+AT+-uow.edu.au * * / \ | That's the University of Wollongong * * \_.--\_* <-- Wollongong is a city of 200,000 about * * v | 100 km south of Sydney, Australia * ******************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Oct 1995 17:58:22 -0400 (EDT) From: Jennifer Broekman To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: A new book to recommend Message-ID: On Wed, 25 Oct 1995 Betsers-+AT+-aol.com wrote: > A BIG THANK YOU to whoever reccommended the Tanya Huff urban fantasy books. > They were great! If anyone has any other reccomendations on books similar in > style to Misty's please speak up. I've really enjoyed all of the books and > this list. I don't know about similar to Misty's work, but everything by Elizabeth Moon (especially the Paksennarion books) is great. Better choice while waiting for Misty books to come out in paperback than anything Anne McCaffrey ever wrote, IMO... (I haven't ever read any GGKay. I have this aversion to starting series that consist of paperbacks more than an inch thick apiece...) -jenneke jsb-+AT+-phantom.com new .sig in development ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Oct 1995 15:00:48 -0600 (MDT) From: RUNDLE-+AT+-wilma.bcasd.az.honeywell.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: A new book to recommend Message-ID: <951025150048.22405eed-+AT+-wilma.bcasd.az.honeywell.com> Dittos. Thanks to whoever recommended Tanya Huff (and there was a bunch of you!) It took me a while to get into the first book in the Blood series, but I'm sure glad I did. True, there are many similarities to Misty's Children of the Night, but only in basic outline. They both have Vampires. But Diana Tregarde is a Guardian while ... what's-her-name Huff's heroine is a p.i. with a handicap. And certainly while their cases involve Vampires, the similarity to me pretty much ended right there. Book 2 of the Blood series is awesome too! It took me quite a while to figure out who the bad dude was. Great stuff. I'm trying very hard to find Book 3 and 4, but my fave library doesn't have them, so I will either have to buy them or scrounge them through interlibrary loan. Are they a) as good, b) better c) worse than the first 2? StarWolf ------------------------------------------------------------------------- "See, when the Government spends money, it creates jobs; whereas when the money is left in the hands of Taxpayers, God only knows what they do with it. Bake it into pies, probably. Anything to avoid creating jobs." Dave Barry ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Oct 1995 15:13:48 -0700 From: Jean Morrill To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Green Lion Trilogy Book 3 Message-ID: <199510252213.PAA08555-+AT+-storm.hwr.arizona.edu> Regarding a discussion several months ago... A couple of people on the list were looking for the third book in Teresa Edgerton's Green Lion Trilogy. I saw a copy (in good condition,too) at a used bookstore yesterday, if anyone is still interested. Half the cover price, plus probably $1.25 or so in postage. Jean jean-+AT+-hwr.arizona.edu p.s. Are there any other Jane Lindskold fans here? Her third book is just out, "The Pipes of Orpheus". Excellent author. Three completely different books, plots, characters and all. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Oct 1995 17:43:29 -0400 From: dstorrs-+AT+-crossover.com (David K. Storrs) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Too Dim Villains (was Re: Tremane) Message-ID: <199510252143.RAA24815-+AT+-prague.crossover.com> >Okay... Poll time. > >What do you like to see in a "good" villan? > > >Fair winds and skies, > >--Gyrfalcon Personally, I'm very much into the "brains-over-brawn" thing (being a scrawny wimp ;> ) so I'm into smart villains: the ones who are particularly weeny, but can outmaneuver the heroes (e.g. Cardinal Richlieu from _The Three Musketeers_). Overall though, they have to have a sense of style -- again, like Richlieu. Villains such as most of the bad guys in the _Dragonlance_ books just don't do it for me (which is not to say that Dragonlance was no good, just that I didn't get into the villains). Dave ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Oct 1995 17:46:27 -0400 From: dstorrs-+AT+-crossover.com (David K. Storrs) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Too Dim Villains (was Re: Tremane) Message-ID: <199510252146.RAA24821-+AT+-prague.crossover.com> >Stacy Hunt DuVall >duvall.23-+AT+-osu.edu > >Physics warning label: "ATTENTION: Despite any other listing of product >contents heron, the consumer is advised that , in actuality, this product >consists of 99.99999999999% empty space." > > Alternate physics warning label: "The consumer should be aware that the components of this vial are, on a fundamental level, totally indistinguishable from those of any of our competitors." Dave :> ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Oct 1995 19:15:03 -0400 (EDT) From: Mat Timmerman To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Too Dim Villains (was Re: Tremane) Message-ID: <01HWV9BNR4LU9356FH-+AT+-vaxc.hofstra.edu> From: duvall.23-+AT+-postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu (Stacy Hunt DuVall) >On 10-25-95, Gyrfalcon wrote: >>A good set of 3d villians comes out of Robert Jordan's books. >> >>All of them have different personalities and motives, none of them make >>mistakes that are out of character. > >Jordan's bad guys are the best ;-). They're bad guys you like to spend some >time on. Of course, he's had six books to give us really juicy bad guys. Yews, Jordan does have very good villains. The Forsaken are mysterious and powerful, but not annoyingly so. Elaida is a very believable villian because she believes so firmly that she is right, even though we know that she's not. >This is why I think if we had some more time with Misty's bad guys, they >might _expand_ a litte more. > We can only hope. >Wistful sigh...how long 'till _Crown of Swords_ comes out?.... About five months now isn't it (March I think)? :( Mat T. -- Mat Timmerman accmjt-+AT+-vaxc.hofstra.edu "I don't care what you smell, just get in there." ------------------------------ End of MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 189 *********************************