MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 198 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re: Tad Williams by mel (Melanie Dymond Harper) 2) Re: books'n'such by Erica Neely 3) Re: books'n'such by jc-+AT+-crosfield.co.uk (Jerry Cullingford) 4) Re: Villains/Tolkien by Catherine Osborne 5) Narnia by mel (Melanie Dymond Harper) 6) Re: books'n'such by CODIORNE-+AT+-WELLESLEY.EDU 7) Re: Tolkien(book to recomend) by h-wilfehrt-+AT+-nwu.edu (Helen M. Wilfehrt) 8) Re: books'n'such by h-wilfehrt-+AT+-nwu.edu (Helen M. Wilfehrt) 9) Re: Complaining again? by h-wilfehrt-+AT+-nwu.edu (Helen M. Wilfehrt) 10) Re: books'n'such by Gyrfalcon 11) Hallowe'en by Heather Mina 12) Off the subject just a bit... by Heather Mina 13) re: Books'n'such by "Scarlett E. Blizzard" 14) Re: Complaining again? by Paul Sheldon 15) Re: books'n'such by Paul Sheldon 16) from Science Fiction to Fantasy by Saverte 17) Re: Tad Williams by Paul Sheldon 18) Re: Hallowe'en by mel (Melanie Dymond Harper) 19) Re: Tremane by Rhonda Rodriguez 20) Re: Hallowe'en by Sunfalcon 21) Re: Hallowe'en by jc-+AT+-crosfield.co.uk (Jerry Cullingford) 22) Re: Hallowe'en by Ned 23) Re: books'n'such by Rich Crawford 24) Re: Narnia by Rosario Holsen-Baker 25) Re: books'n'such by gjuka-+AT+-cnw.com (Gjuka) 26) Re: A new book to recommend by "Thomas, Daria" 27) Re: Hallowe'en by gjuka-+AT+-cnw.com (Gjuka) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 31 Oct 1995 10:24:32 GMT From: mel (Melanie Dymond Harper) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Tad Williams Message-ID: <9510311024.AA09693-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk> > Has anyone read his non-MS&T book, _Tailchaser's > Song_? It's basically _Watership Down_ with cats, but I absolutely adored > it. (I was a cat in a former life, you see... *purrgrin*) I started Tailchaser's Song, but haven't finished it yet; from that part of it which I have read so far, I think it's suffering from reading it too close to _Felidae_ and _Felidae On The Road_ (cat-related mystery books, which I recommend to any of you who like cats). I think I preferred _Watership Down_, too. I don't know, it sounded like such a good book, I've had loads of recommendations for it, but it's just not catching me at the moment. Mel. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Oct 1995 10:53:31 +0000 (GMT) From: Erica Neely To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: books'n'such Message-ID: On Tue, 31 Oct 1995, Sarah Stock wrote: > > > Am I the only person who loves Tolkein? Dad read the Hobbit to me Nope - I love Tolkien. (Well, Hobbit and LotR, at least - I haven't yet tried the Silmarillion.) I have never been really bothered by - or, for that mattere, noticed - all this dragging detail, but... Everyone wants something different in a book, I suppose. (the only place I found LotR to drag was the chapter about riding over the plains of Rohan (sp?)) Take care, Erica ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Oct 1995 11:25:35 +0000 (GMT) From: jc-+AT+-crosfield.co.uk (Jerry Cullingford) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: books'n'such Message-ID: <9510311125.AA10444-+AT+-crosfield.co.uk> > HATED IT. Its really rare for me to not finish a book, but the > Dragonbone Chair and Steven Donaldson's Thomas Convent books > I could not read. I have heard from friends that the other books in > the Williams series were better. Hehe.. The first time I started DC I gave up half way through since not a lot seemed to be happening. But I eventually had another go, and it turned out to be one of my favourite series. It's unusual in that it actually follows a fair bit of everyday life before the main action kicks in - unlike most books where the main characters' previous life gets a few pages at most if they're lucky :-). On balance, spending the extra time worked very well - but it does make for a slightly slow start the first time round (Having just reread the first couple of books, I enjoyed the start a lot better the second time round :-) ). I think Williams sithi are some of the best elves around - he does a great job of making them an alien and different race, rather than just humans with pointy ears :-). > Anyone else read Ru Emerson. Great female character, strong in > medival society. Yes - I like the _Tales of Nedao_ series best, so far - and most of her other stuff is good too, though I really didn't like the _Nightthreads_ series at all; the later books improved somewhat, but I'd recomend any of the other books instead :-). Actually, Ru Emerson is probably one of the writers that comes closest to Misty's style - A talent for getting you to care about the characters, and typically, a similarly clear-cut situation where the heroes are definately the good guys. -- _|_ / | Jerry Cullingford jc-+AT+-crosfield.co.uk (Work) \_|_ jc-+AT+-selune.demon.co.uk (Home) \__/ Hemel Hempstead, UK jerry-+AT+-shell.portal.com (alternate) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Oct 1995 07:53:28 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine Osborne To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Villains/Tolkien Message-ID: This is a Tolkien post. "Smith of Wooton Major" and "Farmer Giles of Ham" (short stories by Tolkien) were read to me as a child, and I'm still very fond of them. In seventh grade we read "The Hobbit" in reading class (as opposed to English class, for grammar. ;) I liked it quite a bit, though I thought his writing style was a bit too stiff for my taste. My whole seventh-grade Catholic class burst into hysterics when Br. Terence (wonderful guy, introduced me to the idea that Christians can actually *think* about their religion) read the chapter title "Queer lodgings." I cringed and sunk a bit lower into my seat. That summer I read tLotR and every summer since I have reread it. I still find it a bit stiff, but the story's great (I amuse myself coming up with better sentence structure ;) Thanks, Barra, for all the biographical info on Tolkien; I found it interesting. And BTW, Cs Lewis is both a brilliant writer and a fascinating philosopher. Screwtape Letters is a work of genius, and I defy anyone to say their attraction to fantasy wasn't influenced by the Chronicles of Narnia. (Sundancer dons flame-proof suit.) anyway, Denzel Washington's *everything* is better ;) I\/ Catherine Osborne "After great pain, I\/ Sundancer a formal feeling comes." I cosborne-+AT+-sidwell.edu --Emily Dickinson I http://www.sidwell.edu/~cosborne/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Oct 1995 13:04:52 GMT From: mel (Melanie Dymond Harper) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Narnia Message-ID: <9510311304.AA14893-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk> > Thanks, Barra, for all the biographical info on Tolkien; I found it > interesting. And BTW, Cs Lewis is both a brilliant writer and a > fascinating philosopher. Screwtape Letters is a work of genius, and I > defy anyone to say their attraction to fantasy wasn't influenced by the > Chronicles of Narnia. (Sundancer dons flame-proof suit.) > I can honestly say that, yup. Mind you, I can't actually point out what _did_ influence my attraction to fantasy, since my early SF/F reading was a long way over onto the SF side. (Heinlein. Asimov. Poul Anderson, but only the SF stuff.) But although I did read "The Lion, The Witch and The Wardrobe", I don't remember reading any more of the Narnia books, and it really didn't make much of an impression on me. I shall now go away and rack my brains (and bookshelves) as to what fantasy, if any, I read prior to starting college. I can't believe I started with Terry Pratchett ... > anyway, Denzel Washington's *everything* is better ;) Give me Christian Slater or Val Kilmer _anytime_ :) Mel. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Oct 1995 08:45:00 -0500 (EST) From: CODIORNE-+AT+-WELLESLEY.EDU To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: books'n'such Message-ID: <01HX315X07G291ZUQM-+AT+-WELLESLEY.EDU> Re: Lord of the Rings -- The way I...er, encountered them first (can't find a better word for it), was having my father read first The Hobbit, then all three books, aloud, while the rest of the family sat around and did needlework or worked on a huge puzzle... The result is that I like The Hobbit and the first book of LotR best: they have the most conventional story suspence...as opposed *especially* to the last book, which goes into High Fantasy. Stuff that sounds like original epic. Which is terribly impressive, but not as readable... And yes, Gyrfalcon (I think it was you who made the comment), I do like C.S. Lewis's Narnia series. Irony is, I read it when very young (or more accurately, had it read to me, back in the days when I got bedtime stories), and didn't realize it was part of a genre until after I'd read LotR... thia, temporarily surfacing ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Oct 1995 08:29:34 -0600 From: h-wilfehrt-+AT+-nwu.edu (Helen M. Wilfehrt) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Tolkien(book to recomend) Message-ID: <199510311427.AA269619650-+AT+-casbah.acns.nwu.edu> >There's an author from the 1800's that wrote for children that I recomend. >I think his name is George MacDonald and he wrote The Princess and The >Goblin, >and a sequel- The Princess and Curdie. He also wrote another book called >The Light Princess that is totally unrelated. They all have sort of a fairy >tale atsmophere and if you like old children's stories, you'd like these. >Did anyone else read these as a child? I believe that we did read them out loud when I was rather young. If I'm right about those books being the ones which I remember, I remember enjoying them a lot. >The other books I'd recomend are the Andrew Lang "Fairy" books.(ie "The >Blue Fairy Book", "The Lilac Fairy Book", ext...) These are collections of >fairy tales from all over the world and I still love them. Its fun to see >these stories and also myths repeated in current fantasy. > >Colette > My whole family loved these books - my mom, sister and myself. I was in elementary school then and luckily our school library had them on the shelves. Helen h-wilfehrt-+AT+-nwu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Oct 1995 08:29:28 -0600 From: h-wilfehrt-+AT+-nwu.edu (Helen M. Wilfehrt) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: books'n'such Message-ID: <199510311427.AA269309644-+AT+-casbah.acns.nwu.edu> > >> I've read "The Hobbit" about five times in my life; the first time was when >> I was eight or so. The rest of the series I finally got around to reading >> when I was 17. It was rough, but I finally was able to get through it (_The >> Two Towers_ is the hardest book to get through). I've tried to read it >> since, but have gotten bogged down in the middle of _Fellowship_ each time. >> I like the books; I guess that reading them is a feat that can only be done >> once in a lifetime. > >Am I the only person who loves Tolkein? Dad read the Hobbit to me >when I was very young, and then I read what seemed like a different >book later. I read Tolkien one weekend when I was 14 or so, and have >never had an experience quite the same. I felt completely dislocated >from the real world for days. I still read it about once year, >whenever I can spare the time. He ranks up there as one of the best >fantasy writers for me. [snip] >Sarah > No you're not. I read the Hobbit when I was 11 or so. I really enjoyed it then I went on to the Ring Trilogy. I enjoyed the first book, Fellowship of the Ring I believe. But at that time I found the 2nd book to be a bit too tedious so I went on to read the last half of the 3rd book. I read this particular combo of the 1st and the last half of the 3rd largely because that was what was covered in the movie "The Lord of the Rings". I am hoping to try to re-read the Trilogy soon - maybe over Christmas break. Actually I remember my father enjoying these Tolkein books so much that we saw the Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings movies several times. He had the Lord of the Rings movie poster mounted and hung on the wall. He also had the little metal figurines of the various characters and scenes from the books. I also enjoy reading Tepper's books, but I do find that her books can be quite, well, voluminous and quite wordy. But her imagery and storylines are quite compelling. I've seen one non-spec. fiction book of hers, mystery I believe, but written under a different name - it was mentioned on the cover. I meant to try it, but now I can't remember the other pseudonym. Has anyone else tried Dan Simmons's "Hyperion" and "Fall of Hyperion"? I really enjoyed them but found them a bit wordy as well. Plus, has anyone tried Octavia E. Butler's "Parable of the Sower"? That was a good book too. Helen h-wilfehrt-+AT+-nwu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Oct 1995 08:29:31 -0600 From: h-wilfehrt-+AT+-nwu.edu (Helen M. Wilfehrt) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Complaining again? Message-ID: <199510311427.AA269489647-+AT+-casbah.acns.nwu.edu> >I hate to think that I'm complaining...AGAIN...but I was wondering if anyone >else out there was put out of sorts by what I consider Cheating on the Grand >Scale that a lot of popular authors, Misty, Anne McCaffrey, Piers Anthony et >all) are writing book with REALLY BIG LETTERING, to fool us, Constant >Readers into thinking that we are getting more for our money? IMO if >Arrow's of the Queen had been printed in the same type set as most of the >Bardic Voices and the new novel The Fire Rose, it would have looked about as >thick as Mickey Zucker Reichert's Last of the Renshai! Am I the only one >who feels cheated? That maybe if these folks would spend a little more time >writing out the overly hurried endings to their stories they wouldn't have >to subject us to the hated REALLY BIG PRINT? Please, I wear glasses, but I >do not yet have a subscription to the Enlarged Print book club. I am >curious to hear your opinions! > >Firefly >ristuben-+AT+-webstar.net > Actually, I prefer the somewhat larger type. There have been several books that have seriously strained my eyesight. I also prefer the larger spaces in between the lines. But there have also been some seriously overly large type which I find distracting. One book that had this in particular was a book by Ray Bradbury called something like "Zen of Science Fiction Writing" where each character was almost half a centimeter high. But actually, from what I hear from a couple of librarians and other people associated with libraries or bookstores, publishers have been responding to numerous complaints about their eye bendingly small type with very narrow line spaces by publishing books with larger type and greater line space. But generally they still don't come close to LARGE PRINT in size. Helen h-wilfehrt-+AT+-nwu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Oct 1995 09:53:36 -0500 (EST) From: Gyrfalcon To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: books'n'such Message-ID: > And yes, Gyrfalcon (I think it was you who made the comment), I do like > C.S. Lewis's Narnia series. Sorry. Not Guilty! I'm guilty of a lot of other things but not that. --Gyrfalcon =======================msowers-+AT+-menger.eecs.stevens-tech.edu=================== Magic still exists. We have only to reach out and touch it, it is a part of the very fabric of the world. When our belief of magic completely dies this universe shall die. Because that magic; Hope, Dreams, Love, Beauty, Wonder, Belief, and Discovery are what make us a people. They are all part of a great Art whose workings are still a mystery but whose applications can be seen every day. If we ever lose the Art mankind shall not last the day. Let the magic that is in us roam free in our work, play, in each other, and most of all in ourselves. Let it roam free or it will die. ============================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Oct 95 09:58:03 GMT+0000 From: Heather Mina To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Hallowe'en Message-ID: <9510311458.AA18209-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk> Is anyone beside me irritated by the fact that much of America seems to honestly think that Hallowe'en is a night of devil worship? Now I will admit that All Hallows Eve is a night of many _pagan_ rituals (emphasizing that 'pagan' just means not Christian), but most of these rituals are concerned with keeping evil AWAY from us. I am getting very annoyed because there was a story on the national news about 2 weeks ago about a town in the Midwest where the school asked children not to wear costumes in because Hallowe'en is a holiday of devil worship, and they didn't want to have their children celebrating a holiday of the devil. Also, the last issue of Newsweek had a snippet in it about another town where a church (also against the devil worship night of Hallowe'en) is sposoring "Hell Night", where they are putting on a graphic demonstration of Hell (and what will get you there) as an alternative to the mainstream Hallowe'en activities. Now I will admit that there are some cults that are particularly fond of Hallowe'en for rituals, and Samhain is an important night for modern "witches". But I seriously doubt that Hallowe'en is truly, for the large majority of people, a night of devil worship. Any takers? <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> < The time has come, the walrus said > < to talk of many things, > < Of shoes and ships and sealing wax, > < of cabbages and kings. > < --- Lewis Carroll > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Heather L. Mina hlmina-+AT+-vwc.edu heamin-+AT+-sunshine.vab.unisysgsg.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Oct 95 09:58:00 GMT+0000 From: Heather Mina To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Off the subject just a bit... Message-ID: <9510311458.AA18202-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk> >> anyway, Denzel Washington's *everything* is better ;) > >Give me Christian Slater or Val Kilmer _anytime_ :) Okay, guys, now how about Adrian Paul (who, BTW, appeared two weeks ago on _Highlander_ in only his underdiddies)? Or Dean Cain? (I must admit that the Diet Coke guy just never did it for me, though). <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> < The time has come, the walrus said > < to talk of many things, > < Of shoes and ships and sealing wax, > < of cabbages and kings. > < --- Lewis Carroll > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Heather L. Mina hlmina-+AT+-vwc.edu heamin-+AT+-sunshine.vab.unisysgsg.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Oct 95 15:05:22 CET (1405Z) From: "Scarlett E. Blizzard" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: re: Books'n'such Message-ID: <9510311520.AA18689-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk> Am I the only person who loves Tolkein? Dad read the Hobbit to me when I was very young, and then I read what seemed like a different book later. I read Tolkien one weekend when I was 14 or so, and have never had an experience quite the same. I felt completely dislocated from the real world for days. I still read it about once year, whenever I can spare the time. He ranks up there as one of the best fantasy writers for me. > Nope!!!, I love him too. I read the series when I was 14, and am now reading it to my kids. On the subject of the Young Adult sections in Libraries!! I used to get so embarrassed when I would go into the section. I would wait until no one was around and rush around and get the books I wanted to borrow... I've outgrown that now, I now recommend books to all the younglings I found browsing in that section of the Library!! Scarlett ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Oct 1995 23:28:28 +0800 From: Paul Sheldon To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Complaining again? Message-ID: <199510311528.XAA20508-+AT+-enterprise.nettrek.com.au> At 02:56 AM 10/31/95 GMT, you wrote: >I hate to think that I'm complaining...AGAIN...but I was wondering if anyone >else out there was put out of sorts by what I consider Cheating on the Grand >Scale that a lot of popular authors, Misty, Anne McCaffrey, Piers Anthony et >all) are writing book with REALLY BIG LETTERING, to fool us, Constant >Readers into thinking that we are getting more for our money? >Firefly > >ristuben-+AT+-webstar.net > IMHO, I can't say that I notice print when I'm reading a good book, and I honestly could care less how long it is as long as it keeps my interest. Sorry! Wind to thy wings, Robina ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Oct 1995 23:23:29 +0800 From: Paul Sheldon To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: books'n'such Message-ID: <199510311523.XAA20496-+AT+-enterprise.nettrek.com.au> At 11:01 PM 10/30/95 GMT, you wrote: >At 09:08 PM 10/30/95 GMT, you wrote: >>On Mon, 30 Oct 1995 17:03:15 GMT Hollie Virgin wrote: >> >> >I've read "The Hobbit" about five times in my life; the first time was when >I was eight or so. The rest of the series I finally got around to reading >when I was 17. It was rough, but I finally was able to get through it (_The >Two Towers_ is the hardest book to get through). I've tried to read it >since, but have gotten bogged down in the middle of _Fellowship_ each time. >I like the books; I guess that reading them is a feat that can only be done >once in a lifetime. > >Did anyone else enjoy Tad Williams' series "Memory, Sorrow and Thorn" (_The >Dragonbone Chair_, _Stone of Farewell_, and _To Green Angel Tower_)? I >often feel like I'm the only one. > >........................................................................... >............................... >Zhai'helleva >Rich > I first read the Hobbit when I was about 7 or so and I had read the LotR by the time I was nine. I loved the books, and still continue to read them now. I find that every time I read the LotR I discover a new twist, or concentrate on a different character, I think I've read the LotR 30-35 times so far. I will be reading the Hobbit to my daughter soon as a bedtime story (she's 4), as I want to introduce her to the marvelous world of books. I'll be the first to admit that the LotR isn't for everyone, but when I read a 400 page book in under anhour (with interruptions) I need something I can get my teeth into. That's probably why I like Misty's work so much, I can follow the characters, without being bereft when the book ends!! Wind to thy wings, Robina ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Oct 1995 10:17:07 -0500 (EST) From: Saverte To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: from Science Fiction to Fantasy Message-ID: I find it fascinating, the talk about people reading Science Fiction and/or Fantasy, and how they got there. For me, I primarily read mysteries, till my Freshman year in high school. I must admit, that I dead read Stranger in a Strange Land when I was in the sixth grade, but it left me totally confused. My parents always encouraged me to read, but my father had let it be known, that he didn't approve of SFF. In highschool, my friend convinced me to read Foundation, and soem of the I Robot stories. I was hooked. In fact, I pointed out to my father, that this author is a Professor of Chemistry at Boston College. Anyway, I quickly ran through Asimov, then went to Heinlin, AD Foster, Niven, well you get the idea. THEN I found Andre Norton. IMHO. still the best SFF author of all time. From there I wnet to Mccaffrey, Lackey and others. One little trick I picked up was to read authors, like Moon and Lisle, who coauthored with writers I like. I am sure I left out many authors, but I am sure this will be rectified later, by others. Wind To Thy Wings Scott ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Oct 1995 23:31:02 +0800 From: Paul Sheldon To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Tad Williams Message-ID: <199510311531.XAA20523-+AT+-enterprise.nettrek.com.au> At 05:56 AM 10/31/95 GMT, you wrote: > >>Has anyone read his non-MS&T book, _Tailchaser's >>Song_? It's basically _Watership Down_ with cats, but I absolutely adored >>it. (I was a cat in a former life, you see... *purrgrin*) > >Been there, read that, loved it, had me purring for a week afterwards. > >--Gyrfalcon > "Meow" > Try Redwall by Brian Jacques, I found it a little juvenile but enjoyed it all the same. Mice not cats or rabbits! Wind to thy wings, Robina ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Oct 1995 16:05:12 GMT From: mel (Melanie Dymond Harper) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Hallowe'en Message-ID: <9510311605.AA19670-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk> > Is anyone beside me irritated by the fact that much of America seems to > honestly think that Hallowe'en is a night of devil worship? Now I will > admit that All Hallows Eve is a night of many _pagan_ rituals (emphasizing > that 'pagan' just means not Christian), but most of these rituals are > concerned with keeping evil AWAY from us. > Well, snip "America" and substitute "much of the Western world" and I'll agree, yes. Bear in mind that Hallowe'en, as a festival, doesn't really exist in the UK in the same way as it does in the US. Yes, people do have Hallowe'en parties, and some of the kids do dress up, a few go trick-or-treating, but it's really not the same big deal as in the US. However, the local paper at my office had a front-page story last week about the church saying that Hallowe'en would, yup, be encouraging kids into devil-worship. If you took out "Hallowe'en" and substituted either "role-playing" or "heavy metal", I'd have sworn I'd seen the story before, several times. *grin* Mel. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Oct 1995 11:05:48 -0500 (EST) From: Rhonda Rodriguez To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Tremane Message-ID: On Mon, 30 Oct 1995, David K. Storrs wrote: > If you want to have an out and out evil person in a story, it's > difficult to do -- most 20th century people have never encountered true evil > (I know I haven't) and would have trouble believing that anyone could be so > bad. Therefore, it is easier to portray villains as insane, or > misunderstood, or *something* in order to give a "justification" for the > behavior of the character. As we continue to spin off topic ... I would like your opinion on a trend in literature (both speculative and non) that I've noticed recently. I'm taking a creative writing class in which we're reading an anthology of contemporary short stories, and it seems like the bulk of them center around a character who is insane, simpleminded, or both. I really don't like this at all. Writing an insane character seems to me like a copout. "Gee, my character can do any perverse and disgusting thing I want him to do, because he's insane." I think it's more of a challenge to write a "normal" person with real problems that a lot of people have, and leading that person along a path that will lead him/her to recovery, or will sink them further into their own depression/immorality/whatever. I believe that it is essential to give a reason for evildoing - I can't accept a character that is evil for evil's sake. Even if a person is mentally unbalanced, something happened to make them that way. Does anyone out there agree? Rhonda ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Oct 1995 11:23:13 -0400 (EDT) From: Sunfalcon To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Hallowe'en Message-ID: On Tue, 31 Oct 1995, Heather Mina wrote: > Is anyone beside me irritated by the fact that much of America seems to > honestly think that Hallowe'en is a night of devil worship? Now I will > admit that All Hallows Eve is a night of many _pagan_ rituals (emphasizing > that 'pagan' just means not Christian), but most of these rituals are > concerned with keeping evil AWAY from us. Well, I wasn't since I hadn't heard anything about it, but I am now. Devil worship? Halloween? I thought that the whole idea behind dressing up as monsters and such was so that the REAL ones (who pick the Eve of the Day of the Dead to stir their bones out of the ground and go looking for tasty treats) wouldn't be able to pick the kiddies out of the general supernatural crowd. > > I am getting very annoyed because there was a story on the national news > about 2 weeks ago about a town in the Midwest where the school asked > children not to wear costumes in because Hallowe'en is a holiday of devil > worship, and they didn't want to have their children celebrating a holiday > of the devil. Also, the last issue of Newsweek had a snippet in it about > another town where a church (also against the devil worship night of > Hallowe'en) is sposoring "Hell Night", where they are putting on a graphic > demonstration of Hell (and what will get you there) as an alternative to the > mainstream Hallowe'en activities. Hmm. Might be fun to watch. I'm probably a little behind the times on just what is sufficient to get you a ticket to Hell. Happy All Hallows Eve, everyone! The Wordsmith of Irymar ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Oct 1995 16:36:01 +0000 (GMT) From: jc-+AT+-crosfield.co.uk (Jerry Cullingford) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Hallowe'en Message-ID: <9510311636.AA13756-+AT+-crosfield.co.uk> Looks like the standard Religious Definition effect - it's difficult to have a dialog when people are operating from different, and mutually incompatible, basic premises. If one set of people take the view that worship of anything other than the Xian God must - by their definition - be devil worship, then there's a major problem trying to convince them otherwise. On the other hand, I'd hardly classify typical halloween activity - which presumably is what the school was on about - as "worship", anyway :-). Extortion, or demanding goodies with menaces, maybe... At the end of the day, all you can do is recognise that different religions are always likely to have differences of opinion; All you can do is follow your own path, allow others to do the same and hope that they will accord you the same courtesy, and educate those willing to listen in order to reduce misunderstandings based on ignorance. The nasty problems arise when one religion (or religous leader) teaches that another religion is not just misguided or wrong, but actively evil, and to-be-stamped-out; I don't think there's a good solution to that problem, unfortunately :-(. -- _|_ / | Jerry Cullingford jc-+AT+-crosfield.co.uk (Work) \_|_ jc-+AT+-selune.demon.co.uk (Home) \__/ Hemel Hempstead, UK jerry-+AT+-shell.portal.com (alternate) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Oct 1995 11:41:14 -0500 (EST) From: Ned To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Hallowe'en Message-ID: On Tue, 31 Oct 1995, Heather Mina wrote: > Is anyone beside me irritated by the fact that much of America seems to > honestly think that Hallowe'en is a night of devil worship? Now I will > admit that All Hallows Eve is a night of many _pagan_ rituals (emphasizing > that 'pagan' just means not Christian), but most of these rituals are > concerned with keeping evil AWAY from us. I'm probably just as irritated by it, if not more so. They assume that since the celebration of Halloween has roots in Samhain, it must be against Christianity (since it isn't actively FOR Christianity). I wonder if they ever stop to think that the timing of Christmas is not so coincidentially right around Yule ( and isn't Yuletide an accepted word used to describe that time of year? (OK< so it is a retorical question..)). The logic for banning Halloween celebrations is the same as that condemming playing AD&D and other such games or even reading fantasy: it creates a "what-if" world in which goblins and ghosts do exist and therefore must be teaching that evil is acceptable and all that other stuff. I don't know about you, but that doesn't make any sense to me > > I am getting very annoyed because there was a story on the national news > about 2 weeks ago about a town in the Midwest where the school asked > children not to wear costumes in because Hallowe'en is a holiday of devil > worship, and they didn't want to have their children celebrating a holiday > of the devil. Also, the last issue of Newsweek had a snippet in it about > another town where a church (also against the devil worship night of > Hallowe'en) is sposoring "Hell Night", where they are putting on a graphic > demonstration of Hell (and what will get you there) as an alternative to the > mainstream Hallowe'en activities. > There are at least 3 churches in the Roanoke, Virginia area that are holding "good, healthy, Christian themed parties" so that children learn that " they don't have to pretend to be the devil" in order to have fun (I can get exact quotes if anyone is interested) The local paper ran an expose of some Wiccans a little while ago and, of course, the local members of the reactionary/ultra-conservative/ultra-religious(the kind who not only want to worship the way they want, but wannt YOU to worship the way they want)/rabid/foaming at the mouth groups started writing in about the "immorality of these devil-worshippers". I guess that this is the simple "if you aren't with us, you must be against us" theory of religious warfare As for what we can do? Well, not much. The people who are going to foam at the mouth about this are the ones who won't either 1) listen to reason and 2) just leave you alone. Sorry about this: I just dealt with a claim by someone over on alt.fan.eddings that was arguing that is God stopped willing the univers too exist, then it would disappear. He based this on the theory by some philosopher named Berkley that claimed that nothing exists except for when we perceive it. (I guess he is sayint that a tree cannot fall in the forest if noone is there to hear it, since it doesn't exist unless there is someone there....) Zhai'helleva Ned Ned Adams aka S. Baldrick Sometimes it is better to light a sbaldric-+AT+-roanoke.infi.net flamethrower than to curse the darkness (540) 890-0212 (T. Pratchett) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Oct 1995 08:58:25 -0800 From: Rich Crawford To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: books'n'such Message-ID: <199510311658.IAA14222-+AT+-franc.ucdavis.edu> >I also enjoy reading Tepper's books, but I do find that her books can be >quite, well, voluminous and quite wordy. But her imagery and storylines are >quite compelling. I've seen one non-spec. fiction book of hers, mystery I >believe, but written under a different name - it was mentioned on the cover. >I meant to try it, but now I can't remember the other pseudonym. > >Has anyone else tried Dan Simmons's "Hyperion" and "Fall of Hyperion"? I >really enjoyed them but found them a bit wordy as well. > On Tepper: I liked "Grass" but most of her books seemed to me nothing more than novel-length diatribes against the evils of organized religion and very little in the way of plot or characterization. Sorry. C.S. Lewis: I couldn't get into his Space Trilogy, but The Chronicles of Narnia are superb. Dan Simmons: I enjoyed both Hyperion and Fall of Hyperion, as well as The Hollow Man and Prayers to Broken Stones. Carrion Comfort, on the other hand, I couldn't get into. I've tried three times, and each time I get about fifty pages into it before finding something more important to do: like sorting socks or something. ............................................................................ ................................ Zhai'helleva Rich ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Oct 1995 12:07:28 -0500 (EST) From: Rosario Holsen-Baker To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Narnia Message-ID: On Tue, 31 Oct 1995, Melanie Dymond Harper wrote: > > anyway, Denzel Washington's *everything* is better ;) > > Give me Christian Slater or Val Kilmer _anytime_ :) > > Mel. Hey! What about Tim Roth? Or Cary Elwes? Or... I am not who I am...can't you tell? Oh dear. That chem test affected me more than I thought. On a more relevant note, has anyone else an opinion on Marion Zimmer Bradley's _Mists of Avalon_ and _Forest House_? |------------------------------------------------------------------------| | Tygra Nightblades | | | | File not found: _Meaning of life_ | | Abort, Retry, Ignore? | | | |------------------------------------------------------------------------| ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Oct 1995 09:09:37 -0800 From: gjuka-+AT+-cnw.com (Gjuka) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: books'n'such Message-ID: <9510311659.AA14153-+AT+-baker> >> HATED IT. Its really rare for me to not finish a book, but the >> Dragonbone Chair and Steven Donaldson's Thomas Convent books >> I could not read. I have heard from friends that the other books in >> the Williams series were better. > I couldn't get through Lord Foul's Bane- I couldn't stand the main charecter. But I read the first book of the second series and it was more tollerable. However, my absolute favorite series by Donaldson is A Man Rides Through and The Mirror Of Her Dreams. Wonderful! I was never sure what to expect, charecters are ot at all what they seem and the whole story is fairly unpredicable and complecated. I reread them and I'm still amazed by them. Not much like anything else I've read, although the unpridictabillity and plot twists remind me a bit of the Riddle Master Trillogy. -Colette Gjuka gjuka-+AT+-cnw.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Oct 95 11:17:00 cst From: "Thomas, Daria" To: mercedes-lackey Subject: Re: A new book to recommend Message-ID: <30965A3B-+AT+-mailsrvr.bussvc.wisc.edu> Another recommendation: this is *not* a new book, but is being re-released. The originals are nearly impossible to find now (and I've looked!) so try "Fire Dancer" by Ann Maxwell. The next two in the series, "Dancer's Luck" and "Dancer's Illusion" haven't yet been re-released, but read them when they come out! -Daria ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Oct 1995 09:23:23 -0800 From: gjuka-+AT+-cnw.com (Gjuka) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Hallowe'en Message-ID: <9510311713.AA14486-+AT+-baker> >Is anyone beside me irritated by the fact that much of America seems to >honestly think that Hallowe'en is a night of devil worship? Now I will >admit that All Hallows Eve is a night of many _pagan_ rituals (emphasizing >that 'pagan' just means not Christian), but most of these rituals are >concerned with keeping evil AWAY from us. > >I am getting very annoyed because there was a story on the national news >about 2 weeks ago about a town in the Midwest where the school asked >children not to wear costumes in because Hallowe'en is a holiday of devil >worship, and they didn't want to have their children celebrating a holiday >of the devil. Also, the last issue of Newsweek had a snippet in it about >another town where a church (also against the devil worship night of >Hallowe'en) is sposoring "Hell Night", where they are putting on a graphic >demonstration of Hell (and what will get you there) as an alternative to the >mainstream Hallowe'en activities. > >Now I will admit that there are some cults that are particularly fond of >Hallowe'en for rituals, and Samhain is an important night for modern >"witches". But I seriously doubt that Hallowe'en is truly, for the large >majority of people, a night of devil worship. > >Any takers? Yah well, I find it irritating and exasperating that many Christians truely believe that all hallows eve is evil- particlularly since it is also part of a Christian Holliday as well as Pagan (All Saints Day/ Day of The Dead). I tend to put it in the same section as people who think may pole dances are cute and picture young virgins doing it. (my old high school german class does them every year like clock work. The pole is more authentic than most, and it stays up all year if you can believe it!) It is more harmfull to the Pagan comunity though, because we get a lot of bad press this time of year. I hate it when newspapers don't do thier research and say stuff like "well witches do such and such..." Kinda like the reporter in Children of the Night (remember Misty? ). Halloween is sometimes a trial, but usually not too bad. coltte gjuka-+AT+-cnw.com ------------------------------ End of MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 198 *********************************