MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 228 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Attributions by Jennifer Broekman 2) Re: Casting by Amy Mason 3) more MOC and mindspeaking by Heather Mina 4) mindspeech revisited... by Heather Mina 5) Companions and mindspeech by Heather Mina 6) Re: Van's Bardic Gift by CHONNI 7) Re: bardic gift and other threads by mikkell-+AT+-cybernet.dk (Mikkel Larsen) 8) Re: Current discussion by mikkell-+AT+-cybernet.dk (Mikkel Larsen) 9) Re: more mindspeech... by CHONNI 10) Fire Rose & everything else by T Andrews 11) Re: bardic gift and other threads by mealink-+AT+-syd.au.swissbank.com (Kerry Mealing) 12) Talia's Empathy by ARisemberg-+AT+-eworld.com 13) Re: Casting by AnneS3832-+AT+-aol.com 14) Re: more mindspeech... by Alison Schiff 15) Re: bardic gift and other threads by Alison Schiff 16) Re: bardic gift by Alison Schiff 17) Re: more mindspeech... by mealink-+AT+-syd.au.swissbank.com (Kerry Mealing) 18) bios by Tammy Harris ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 14 Nov 1995 11:36:16 -0500 (EST) From: Jennifer Broekman To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Attributions Message-ID: I'd like to request that people *keep* attributions when quoting text. It's highly annoying to have to look up who said what I was replying to in a previous message in order to be able to put everything in context because someone else has removed crucial attributions. The words that appear on your screen because of this list do not come from the ether. They belong to specific people, who deserve to retain the credit or blame for them, regardless of how many times the material is quoted. Please include attributions at the beginning of quoted material for all material that you're quoting, not just the most recent contributor to the thread. -jenneke jsb-+AT+-phantom.com new .sig in development ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Nov 1995 11:18:39 -0800 (PST) From: Amy Mason To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Casting Message-ID: On Tue, 14 Nov 1995, Staci Schoenfeld wrote: > How about Gerard Depardieu for Alberich? The accent might work in his favor.... > > Staci That's a good suggestion. Also, Gerard isn't that handsome, and we know that Alberich was far from being described as cute... Amy :) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Nov 95 14:30:01 GMT+0000 From: Heather Mina To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: more MOC and mindspeaking Message-ID: <9511141931.AA08794-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk> Gyrfalcon elucidates: >Bzzzt! Wrong! >Arrows of the Queen: pg 124 > > "That Companion appears from the Grove just as the originals >did. He is always a stallion, and he never seems to age. He always >gives his name to his Herald; the others may or may not do so, and may >allow their Heralds to pick a name for them. If he is killed--and many >have been--another appears from the Grove to take his place." etc. > >The MOC doesn't age or die from age, but can be killed. If the MO is >killed or dies then he picks another MO. Just as if the MOC is killed >and the MO is still living, that is the Herald he picks. Thank you for the textual reference. I'm going to have to start keeping my books with me day and night! Seanna writes. >I maintain that Rolan was too weak a Mindspeaker to bespeak Talia >ordinarily - he would have needed her to trance. If Talia _or_ Rolan >was better at Mindspeaking, Talia wouldn't have needed to. I >wonder if Rolan had tranced, would he have been able to bespeak Talia >without her doing it too? What do you think? Sorry, but if Rolan is so weak a mindspeaker, then how did he carry it off so neatly when he spoke to Dirk and Elspeth? >No, I think it was quite literal in that case. Besides the wording of >the spot (I really should check it), well, Valdemarans were strong >enough Mindspeakers to be "Adepts". I don't think Elspeth would >be that surprised by just a loud voice. Think about it a little. Adept mindspeakers would have _control_, so they would not be overloud if they could help it. Therefore, someone with a very loud voice would startle a Herald, who was used to people with good control over their gifts. It's like a very young toddler (like 12 to 18 months old), who has no control over the loudness of his physical voice. If you ask a toddler to be quiet, he won't - not because he is bad and disobedient, but because he doesn't know how. Likewise, someone whose gift is not in complete control. +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Heather L. Mina | She whose head echoes | | hlmina-+AT+-vwc.edu | with a hollow BOONNNGGGGG | | heamin-+AT+-sunshine.vab.unisysgsg.com | | +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Nov 95 14:29:57 GMT+0000 From: Heather Mina To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: mindspeech revisited... Message-ID: <9511141931.AA08793-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk> A note to everyone else: This is going to look like a really bitchy argument that probably should have been taken to personal mail. However, I want to defend myself by saying that I have approached this discussion as I would any LITERARY discussion. I have not brought my personal feelings about what I WISH characters could do, or what I always thought they SHOULD be able to do. I have tried as much as possible to consider the storylines of each novel, as well as the group of Velgarth books as a whole. One of the major challenges that every fantasy writer faces is how to create a meaningful form of magic and how to establish the rules for that magic so that they aren't open for abuse (Piers Anthony regularly abuses his own rules, for example). Misty has done a good job of setting up the Gift idea, with different geographical areas having different rules and scholarship available to them on different Gifts. Valdemar has concentrated (exclusively, since the death of Vanyel) on developing the mindgifts. However, the rules for mindgifts are never really spelled out (except for "if you overdo it, you will have a headache"). I have enjoyed the discussions about mindspeech and who can speak and who can hear. For the most part, we've been cheerfully throwing around ideas and disagreeing as friends. But the following discussion is something that really bothers me, and I would like to share with you all how I feel. Thank you for listening, Heather Mina ****************************************************************** from jenneke... >Bzzzt. Valdemar prayed to every god he'd ever heard of. Yes, I've already conceded this one. My point anyway was that there was a deity (or more) involved in the whole Companion creation process. >> But it is made very clear to us throughout the entire saga that Talia has >> absolutely no trace of mindspeaking. She couldn't hear it if Rolan did > >Bzzzt. Talia has enough thoughtsensing (the receptive version of >MindSpeech) for her to get words when she's tranced down or they're >carried by very strong emotions, the same way she can receive images. Bzzzt right back at you! Talia doesn't have to trance down to receive images. She receives them more clearly that way, but she can see through Rolan's eyes just fine without being in trance. And I just don't believe you about the thoughtsensing. Can you find any quotes? >> Besides, why would Rolan not be allowed to mindspeak Talia? She is, after >> So once again, I assert that the ONLY reason that Talia and Rolan do not >> share actual mindspeech is that Talia does not have the Gift for it. If she >> did, then she and Rolan could talk all they want. However, since Talia can > >Rolan isn't 'allowed' to casually mindspeak Talia because she doesn't >have enough of the Gift. *However*, this doesn't mean that he *can't*, >just that it's 'not done'. No way! You're contradicting yourself here. "Talia doesn't have enough of the thoughtsensing gift. So Rolan doesn't mindspeak to her because mindspeaking your Chosen is just 'not done'." This doesn't make sense. Rolan doesn't mindspeak Talia because she can't hear him. Now mindspeaking other people who are not your Chosen (like, oh, Dirk and Elspeth) is just 'not done' unless there is a grave need. But Rolan does this anyway. He's not so tradition-bound that he would be bound by 'just not done'. >> are all (with the exception of Warrl, who *does* have the ability to use >> vocal speech - note the kyree colony in the Vanyel books and the ones who >> are of Clan k'Leshya) postulated as spirits of deceased himan beings - who > >Bzzzt. Kyree communicate with Vanyel via mindspeech, in spite of the >fact that they don't share a language and the fact that the kyree >language isn't even close to Valdemaran (or Shin'a'in). And the theory >is that souls move between species, not that the non-humans have souls >that were once human. The Tayledras don't put humans on that kind of >pedestal. Bzzzt back at you again! The kyree communicate with Stefen, and not through mindspeech!!! I did not mean to imply that the kyree were former human souls, but to point out that it is implied that Companions and firecats are former human souls. Mea culpa. >> I disagree. Since mindspeech is called "speech", and since our thought >> patterns are so heavily influenced by our native language (or the language >> in which we are thinking at the time), I don't see how it could NOT be >> determined by language. If I am mindspeaking German words at you, and you >> don't know German, how will you understand me? > >So, clearly, when Warrl was mindspeaking kyree howls at Tarma, there was >no way for Tarma to understand him. Ditto for the kyree who spoke to >Vanyel. Say, what??? You're misunderstanding me. I can understand a "howl", even though it is not in my language. Besides, the kyree in MPrice SPOKE OUT LOUD to Van and Stefen! But if I mindspeak at you in a language that you don't know, then how are you going to understand me? I think in English. Maria thinks in Spanish. I don't know Spanish. So when Maria mindspeaks, it's all gibberish to me. >> There is also discussion somewhere in the books (I'll have to go home and >> dig them up) about what would happen if a child who was destined to be the >> Monarch's Own were in a particularly dangerous situation or needed to be in >> training right away. In this situation, an unbonded choosing might take >> place with a "free" Companion. > >Right. But once the child became Monarch's Own, s/he *would* have a >bonded Choosing with the MOC. That's exactly my point. But someone had doubted that an unbonded choosing was possible. Now you and I agree that it is. >You're entirely missing the point I was making. There's no reason for the >MOC to conceal that he's the same if he didn't die, but there *is* if he >*did*. It's the opposite situation that I was talking about: the one >where the *MOC* dies and the *MOH* doesn't. In that situation, allowing >the Heralds to know that the MOC was the same spirit as the one who just >died would place *way* too much emphasis on the fact that Companions are >spirit-beings, not just 'special'. It would tend to make the Heralds >think of the Companions as what they really are and to rely on them for >miracles, instead of working things out themselves. Sorry, but you're making a bad assumption. We are never told that the "spirit" of the Monarch's Own Companion is the same one throughout the years. What are you using as your basis for this assumption? jenneke writes some more... >That idea has been batted around on the list for at least as long as I've >been on it. Also, the MOC DOES NOT AGE. He can be killed, but he >doesn't age and he doesn't die if he isn't killed. Where are you getting this from? Where is it ever said that the Monarch's Own Companion does not age? >Why, pray tell, does Kethry not count? She's got less mindspeech than >Talia does, after all. Says who? Who has tested Kethry for mindgifts? (Remember that her school pretty much leaves mindgifts alone, as does just about everybody outside of Valdemar) >What this list looks like is that you're giving a >Gift to anyone we've seen receive mindspeech, even if there's no other >evidence, or even counter evidence, to them having the Gift. No, I'm simply saying that WE DON'T KNOW whether they have a gift or not! Most people on this mailing list assume that there is some miracle going on where there is mindspeech with ungifted individuals. My point is that WE DON'T KNOW whether these people are mindgifted or not. Keep in mind that Valdemar is just about the only place where mindgifts are freely accepted, tested for, and trained. Mage schools are uncomfortable with them. > Tarma, for >example, comments at one point that she was always surprised when Warrl >spoke to her, because she was neither Gifted nor a mage (who could have a >familiar-bond with a kyree). No, Tarma comments that she does not have the mage gift. It is never stated in the text whether Tarma might have a mindgift or not. >Also, when Altra drops into the strategy >meeting to announce the distribution of mages at strategic points, he is >heard by the engineers present as well as everyone else. Surely you're >not going to say that they're Gifted, too. I'll read this section again. Anyway, one of my much-much-earlier points was that the matter of mindspeaking seems to be a literary contrivance that Misty uses at her convenience for any characters to be able to communicate. And these inconsistencies, where she does not tell us who has gifts or doesn't, support this theory. >Finally, Nyara (not Kyara) did >not mindspeak to Need. She formed thoughts on the surface of her mind and >Need read them, which requires that Need be able to read thoughts, but >*not* that Nyara be able to project them. Okay, I'll give you this one. But Need DID project thoughts to Nyara (sorry). And it is said somewhere that Nyara has at least mage-potential. We're just never told whether she has other gifts as well, in potential or reality. >> >3) Do we _ever_ see Rolan Mindspeak to Talia, even in a trance? I >> >can't remember, and I don't have my books here. >> Nope. I remain positive that Talia cannot mind**hear**. No reflection on >> Rolan's abilities at all! > >If she'd never done it, why would she suggest that she trance down so >Rolan could talk to her? If she couldn't mindhear, why would she get >words along with the pictures and emotions that Nevan (?) sent during >training? Why would she have gotten Ylsa's final words along with the >image? Why does it seem that you'd prefer to believe that Misty is >stupidly inconsistent than that projective mindspeech doesn't require >receptive mindspeech on the other end? I'm not saying that Misty is "stupidly inconsistent". However, all of us here have commented on inconsistencies in her stories. In case you've never tried to build a world and a mythos and then deliver 50,000 word novels which are completely consistent, it is *extremely* difficult. Now Misty is just about my favorite author in the world, and I have not ONCE said that she is stupid. So you can just keep your emotions out of this discussion and face it like a mature reader. However, I did not consider the episode with Nevan. I had, in all honesty, forgotten about it. I will reconsider my position in light of it. But please check out the paragraph above about the mindspeech being used as a device. I am not saying that Misty is stupidly inconsistent, but that her use of mindspeech in her books is not entirely consistent with what we would expect. It is a valid argument that Companions and firecats (as well as any other religious icons - which they most certainly ARE, being created by god(dess)(es) to help humans) might have the ability to project into the minds of non-gifted individuals. However, I always search for the explanation which involves the least magic and hand-waving. It is the mathematician in me. +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Heather L. Mina | She whose head echoes | | hlmina-+AT+-vwc.edu | with a hollow BOONNNGGGGG | | heamin-+AT+-sunshine.vab.unisysgsg.com | | +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Nov 95 15:01:16 GMT+0000 From: Heather Mina To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Companions and mindspeech Message-ID: <9511142002.AA09657-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk> jenneke writes: >I think that we have many, many examples of the Companions doing things >in roundabout, convoluted ways to prevent their Heralds from becoming too >dependent on them or figuring out what they really are and very few >examples that would even *hint* that a Groveborn Companion could possibly >have too weak a Gift to Mindspeak his Chosen. We've repeatedly seen >that, unless there's truly grave danger, *most* Companions (ie., all >except Sayvil) adhere to rules about whom they can and cannot bespeak. >Talia's Mindspeech was sufficiently weak and receptive that she wouldn't >ever be able to project her thoughts to Rolan. All mindspeech >communication would be one-sided in nature, WHICH IS ABSOLUTELY CONTRARY >TO NORMAL COMPANION PRACTICE. Because it couldn't be equal, there had to >be none, except in the event of a dire emergency. Even if Rolan had the >strongest MindSpeech Gift alive on the planet, I don't think he would >have spoken to her, except maybe when she was in Ancar's dungeon, and >perhaps not even then, if he thought that his energy was better reserved >for getting her Fetched back to the cmap (ie., he foresaw a greater need >for her than that she'd already fulfilled) or if Ancar's shields were as >strong as is implied. I don't agree with your assertion that if (Companion <---> human) mindspeech can't be equal in nature, then there can be none. While I will agree with you that Companions do seem to go through many convultions and contortions to keep the Heralds (and everybody else) from knowing what is going on with them, I don't think they have that rigid a code on mindspeaking. I see it more as a matter of tradition. For one thing, the Companions are a vastly superior race of beings in comparison to mere mortal humans. Snobbery aside, I can't really seeing a Companion *wanting* to talk to a person, mind-to-mind or otherwise. However, it has been ordained by some god(dess)(es) that the Companion choose and bond with a single human (with the exception of the MOC, who could potentially choose and bond with many people over a lifetime); thus the Companion may be forced to speak to that human. It has become tradition that the Companions seek out mind-gifted people to become Heralds (well, duh! Mindgifted people are the easiest - if not the only (I'm not trying to perpetuate the debate; I'm just calling attention to the issue)- people they can talk to!), and that they pretty much talk exclusively to their Chosen. So why does there need to be a rule about in what manner a Companion can talk to his Chosen? If I have thoughtsensing, but can't project beyond my nose, then I can hear my Companion's mind-voice, and then reply out loud or by hand-signal. Or if I'm Talia, I can hear Rolan, and then project back to him empathically. I'm sure there are Heralds who have had to resort to these measures. >IMO, in this case, Occam's Razor argues for Rolan *choosing* not to >MindSpeak Talia, not being unable to, regardless of the reason for his >supposed inability. I think we've all pretty much agreed that any "inability" would not lie on Rolan's side but on Talia's. jenneke writes again... >Well, I think that "*Must* you even *think* in cliches?!" counts as >words, not emotions, myself. Since Misty bothers to differentiate >between the times when Warrl speaks words to Tarma and when he just sends >emotions, I tend to think that they communicate in real, concrete words, >in spite of the initial language barrier. Ditto for the communication >between Vanyel and the kyree. We've never seen a situation in which >MindSpeakers from different cultures have any difficulty understanding >each other and plenty of instances in which they have no difficulty at >all. Why the assumption that they *should*? Especially when we've seen >non-MindSpeakers have language barrier problems (Kero's troops in >Valdemar). The assumption is made because the word "mindspeak" implies language. I'm sorry, but you can NOT speak without using language. You can cry or whimper or scream, but not speak. It is true that Misty does not present any situations where mindspeakers have a problem crossing cultural and/or language barriers. But I think this is a grave inconsistency on her part, breaking her own laws of magic, if you will. If it were called "thoughtcasting" or something like that, then I would accept instantly that there might not be a language problem, because there is nothing mentioned that refers to the mechanics of language. However, Misty chose to call it "Mindspeaking", which implies the use of language; therefore, I must assume that the communication is verbal in nature, and hence relies on the mindspeaker's spoken language. To work on particular examples, though, Tarma is Shin'a'in, and Warrl is presumably a descendent of the kaled'a'in, so their languages would be similar in nature. Likewise Vanyel and the kyree colony - Van spoke Tayledras, which is again very similar to kaled'a'in. Think about Kero and Edrel (?), too. Kero says or thinks somewhere that she is glad she knows a smattering of Valdemaran. So there might be language difficulties there - easily surmountable, to be sure - but not a complete language barrier. Likewise Daren and Selenay - since Daren was a prince (and presumably a diplomat) and trained by the same person as Kero, it stands to reason that he would know at least some Valdemaran. Now, as to Companions and firecats, we're getting into godly realms, so (oops - tee hee) God only knows whether there are any language barriers there! Well, that's enough for now. Back to working on tab keys and windows! Wind to thy wings, Heather +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Heather L. Mina | She whose head echoes | | hlmina-+AT+-vwc.edu | with a hollow BOONNNGGGGG | | heamin-+AT+-sunshine.vab.unisysgsg.com | | +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Nov 1995 13:19:00 -0800 (PST) From: CHONNI To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Van's Bardic Gift Message-ID: On Tue, 14 Nov 1995, Sanna Koulu wrote: > Indeed, that's just what I've been talking (ranting?) about. I prefer > to think Misty made a mistake in that, rather than think that the > books (or Vanyel) are less than perfect. I mean, if Vanyel did have > the Bardic Gift, the books should have told us how he felt about it, > how it affected his reaction to Medren and so on. It's entirely possible, given Vanyel's despair at not becoming a Bard, that after he developed the gift, he subconsciously blocked himself from using it. *********************************************************************** -Chonni Brightwolf (Katherine Moll, student) University College of the Cariboo British Columbia, CANADA ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Nov 1995 22:23:34 +0100 From: mikkell-+AT+-cybernet.dk (Mikkel Larsen) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: bardic gift and other threads Message-ID: <9511142125.AA13421-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk> >>Are you sure that any kyree speak aloud? I don't remember this. Examples >>of specific instances, please... >End of Magic's Price - Van and Stefen arrive at kyree colony, where kyree >nurse Van back to health. Sorry, in my copy they don't. All that is 'said' is mindspeach (like :this: not "this"). In checking I found this: ":That's a kyree.: Yfandes bowed her head to the creature. :One with a very powerful Gift of Mindspeach, or you wouldn't be able to hear it:" That IMHO means that Stefen does *not* have any mindspeaking, but that a powerful mindspeaker can make him/her/it-self heard even to minddeaf. Mikkel Larsen (mikkell-+AT+-cybernet.dk) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Nov 1995 22:23:37 +0100 From: mikkell-+AT+-cybernet.dk (Mikkel Larsen) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Current discussion Message-ID: <9511142125.AA13430-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk> >(I'm paraphrasing - it's accurate in idea, not in details) "As if >the Gods had made up for his lack of Gift in the past by granting him the >Bardic Gift now, eventhough it was still minor relative to his other new >Gifts". Sorry, it goes "And-irony of ironies-as if the gods were taking with one hand and offering a pittance as compensation-the Bardic Gift." The taken must obviously be Tylendel. In comparison the Bardic Gift would be a pittance, but there is no mention of relative strength. I wonder too. Did he ever use the Bardic gift????? I don't remember any mention of it, in Highjorune he poses as a minstrel *not* as a Bard and minstrels does not have the Bardic Gift. Mikkel Larsen (mikkell-+AT+-cybernet.dk) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Nov 1995 13:36:17 -0800 (PST) From: CHONNI To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: more mindspeech... Message-ID: On Tue, 14 Nov 1995, Jennifer Broekman wrote: > Well, I think that "*Must* you even *think* in cliches?!" counts as > words, not emotions, myself. Since Misty bothers to differentiate > between the times when Warrl speaks words to Tarma and when he just sends > emotions, I tend to think that they communicate in real, concrete words, > in spite of the initial language barrier. Ditto for the communication > between Vanyel and the kyree. We've never seen a situation in which > MindSpeakers from different cultures have any difficulty understanding > each other and plenty of instances in which they have no difficulty at > all. Why the assumption that they *should*? Especially when we've seen > non-MindSpeakers have language barrier problems (Kero's troops in > Valdemar). Okay, how about this theory? What if everyone thinks in their native language *but*, a part of the Mindspeech gift is the ability to translate? Afterall, it's doubtful any two beings will think in the exact same manner, so perhaps the thoughts of one being are sent to the other, translated into something that makes sense to the reciever. Gee, we could even stretch the metaphor, and say that minds are like computers, and mindspeech is available only to those with modems! Well, okay, that's stretching it alot... Remember, your modem has to be on the same speed as the computer your connecting with, otherwise it's all garbage... Yah,I'm about ready to go to class now... *********************************************************************** -Chonni Brightwolf (Katherine Moll, student) University College of the Cariboo British Columbia, CANADA ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Nov 1995 15:28:24 -0700 (MST) From: T Andrews To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Fire Rose & everything else Message-ID: 1) Has anyone read Misty's new (well it's new here in Canada anyway) Fire Rose yet? is it good?? otherwise?? 2) bio - since everyone else seems to be doing it, may as well jump on the bandwagon...My name is Tara Andrews, I live in Edmonton, Canada (and wish I was somewhere warm...Australia, Florida, Arizona..). I'm a university student (still...forever and ever and ever...) finishing up an after degree in Anthropology (I have a BSc in Zoology), so far the plan is to finish my requirements and go to vet school (HAHAHAHAHAHAHA). Oh!, I'm 22 years old (turning 23 in January), and share my home with assorted creatures including a cockatoo, a macaw, a 6' long boa constrictor, a hedgehog, three brothers and a sister. My parents started me out on science fiction, but I switched over to fantasy somewhere in around junior high (?) and haven't been able to break this addiction yet (not that I'm trying very hard...). 3) Amberdrake, you said (at least I think it was you) that you had asked about Canadians because you didn't know of very many Misty or fantasy fans in Western Canada? Well, my first initial (sarcastic) response was "of course not...surely in redneck Alberta they wouldn't go for something like ttthhaaatt! My second response was that actually, I must be surrounding myself with some pretty weird people....all my friends love Misty books, fantasy, role playing, etc. Anyway, just to let you know...we are out here!(some of us are WAAAYYY OUT) (I'm sure you'll be able to sleep at night knowing now eh?) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Nov 95 09:18:13 EST From: mealink-+AT+-syd.au.swissbank.com (Kerry Mealing) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: bardic gift and other threads Message-ID: <9511142218.AA11705-+AT+-syd.au.swissbank.com> Wyvern wrote: > wyvern, who also wants to be a programmer someday... Nooooooo! Don't do it! Save yourself before it's too late! Kerry .. who didn't manage to save himself.. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Nov 1995 14:33:59 -0800 From: ARisemberg-+AT+-eworld.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Talia's Empathy Message-ID: <951114143355_18502611-+AT+-hp1.online.apple.com> Someone asked about Talia receiving words from Neave and Ylsa (when she was dying) and various others. Well, in general, I am on the side of people NOT always needing a receiving gift in order to get messages from some strong senders. However, in Talia's case, I think her empathy alone (whether she has mindspeech or not) COULD let her "hear" words. It seems that her empathy is more than just receiving emotions...it is more like her living the other person's life from their perspective, a walking in their shoes kind of thing. Therefore, part of that perspective is words, and when she is strongly receiving, really one hundred percent there, like with the Neave scenario she was caught up in or Ylsa's death, it is as if she were really there, tasting, smelling, hearing, feeling everything from the other. Including what speech they hear. This would also explain why she would want to trance down with Rolan. Were she in trance, she wouldn't hear him speaking, but it would be as though his thoughts were hers, she would experience a situation from his perspective and fully understand (as with scene in AoQ when she first discovers Rolan in her mind, off in Companion's Field, when her vision changed and she could see what he saw and feel what he felt). What do the rest of you think? Wind to thy wings, -- Alice -- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Nov 1995 17:46:46 -0500 From: AnneS3832-+AT+-aol.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Casting Message-ID: <951114174641_84528203-+AT+-mail04.mail.aol.com> Hi Folks! ::looking away from window praying to several gods/goddesses that in THIS gale the nasty dead larch <> does not take this minute to crash through my bay window right after I paid to have it re-insulated . . . :: OK- Stacy began, but Amy added: <<> How about Gerard Depardieu for Alberich? The accent < <<> Staci << <> and I always "saw" Alberich as a very lean man. Plus, try as I might, Gerard reminds me of my best friends golden retriever in friendliness, and I always mentally "saw" Alberich as more feral . . .I think I'll head to the line over by Rutger Hauer . . . . . Anne, who is really tired of these storms that will not bring SNOW to NYC . . .. annes3832-+AT+-aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Nov 1995 17:45:26 -0500 (EST) From: Alison Schiff To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: more mindspeech... Message-ID: On Tue, 14 Nov 1995, Jennifer Broekman wrote: > On Tue, 14 Nov 1995, Sanna Koulu wrote: > > Jenneke wrote: > > >Heather wrote: > > > > are all (with the exception of Warrl, who *does* have the ability to use > > > > vocal speech - note the kyree colony in the Vanyel books and the ones who > > > > are of Clan k'Leshya) postulated as spirits of deceased himan beings - who > > > Bzzzt. Kyree communicate with Vanyel via mindspeech, in spite of the > > > fact that they don't share a language and the fact that the kyree > > > language isn't even close to Valdemaran (or Shin'a'in). And the theory > > > is that souls move between species, not that the non-humans have souls > > > that were once human. The Tayledras don't put humans on that kind of > > > pedestal. > > Are we sure they don't share a language? Vanyel, at least, speaks > > Tayledras. The kyree might, too. (Or kaled'a'in.) A shaman might know > > more languages than your "ordinary" (right...) kyree; a mage might > > use a translation-spell. And the kyree do have mages. > > Why would a kyree scout, in an area not containing Tayledras, speak > Tayledras to two random humans *without* knowing if they could speak it? > > -jenneke > > jsb-+AT+-phantom.com > new .sig in development Well if Tayledras (or shin'a'in or kaled'a'in) was the only human language you knew, what other language would you use to greet a couple of human strangers? I don't pause before adressing someone in English, even when I visit Quebec. It's the only human language I'm fluent in. I just hope the one I'm talking to knows it too. Also, even if the kyree were not in a very populated (by humans) area, as long as they know that the humans exhist it would make sense for them to learn the language. They are certainly intelligent enough to see the advantages to this. ("don't shoot me I'm intelligent!", or "I've been hurt and separated far from my kin, please help me" etc...) my $.02, Alison Schiff schiff-+AT+-trenton.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Nov 1995 17:52:45 -0500 (EST) From: Alison Schiff To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: bardic gift and other threads Message-ID: On Tue, 14 Nov 1995, Mikkel Larsen wrote: > >>Are you sure that any kyree speak aloud? I don't remember this. Examples > >>of specific instances, please... > >End of Magic's Price - Van and Stefen arrive at kyree colony, where kyree > >nurse Van back to health. > Sorry, in my copy they don't. All that is 'said' is mindspeach (like :this: > not "this"). > In checking I found this: > ":That's a kyree.: Yfandes bowed her head to the creature. :One with a very > powerful Gift of Mindspeach, or you wouldn't be able to hear it:" > That IMHO means that Stefen does *not* have any mindspeaking, but that a > powerful mindspeaker can make him/her/it-self heard even to minddeaf. > Mikkel Larsen (mikkell-+AT+-cybernet.dk) Maybe most of the people we think are minddeaf actually do have a trace of the gift, even if their "deafness" is stated flat out. They may not have enough of the gift for it to make any sort of difference to any but the most powerful mind speakers. As an analogy, maybe it's like the difference between being blind and being "legally blind". So a person could be pronounced minddeaf but have a teeny tiny bit of "hearing" anyway. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Nov 1995 18:08:10 -0500 (EST) From: Alison Schiff To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: bardic gift Message-ID: On Tue, 14 Nov 1995, Sanna Koulu wrote: > Heather Mina wrote: > (SNIP) > > > >Heyla, all... > > > why do you say Van never used his Gift? He loved music. Just 'cuz he > > >wasn't trained doesn't mean he couldn't *use* it... > > >wyvern > > > > You know, I'd even bet money that Van probably *did* use it a time or two > > without even realizing it. (Given that he was never trained...) > > WHY wouldn't he be trained?! I think if he had the Bardic Gift he > _would_ be trained. The Circle can't overlook any powerful Gifts, it > needs them too much. Remember that Bardic Collegium (sp?) is separate from Herald's. Also Vanyel didn't do most of his training at Collegium anyway, he learned with the Hawkbrothers. With all of his gifts at full force so soon, I doubt that he would have had the time for an entirely separate course of study (so to speak). Since the bards have a whole collegium devoted to learning the proper use of the gift It probably isn't as simple as just one more gift learned at the same time as all the rest. Note that I didn't say he can't use it at all, just that he hasn't learned it's _full_ use. He probably has about the same amount of bardic gift as empathy, and probably uses it whenever he uses projective empathy (whether he realizes it or not, and I think he would) as they would complement each other perfectly. It may not actually _say_ he's using bardic as they are really both means to exactly the same end. > > > > > Seanna writes... > > >I think Vanyel doesn't have the Bardic Gift, and Misty screwed up > > >with the reference in MPawn. The books _never_ again (I could be > > >wrong) even refer to Vanyel having the Gift, whereas he _does_ use > > >Fetching, Fire-starting, the Mage Gift, Empathy, Mindspeech and > > >Foresight (not sure about Farsight, though that might be included > > >when they're creating the Web) and even Healing. I know he has Fetching, but where does he ever use it? It's one of his weaker gifts I know. > > > > Come ON! Savil almost cries in sympathy for Van when she sees that > > the > > channel for the Bardic Gift was blasted open along with the rest of them. > > But didn't she also say something about using that channel causing pain for > > him? I don't remember that part too clearly. > > Come ON, yourself . I remember the scene perfectly well; I've read > the thing more times than I care to count. (I just _love_ Vanyel!) I > think Savil said all of the blasted channels caused pain, not the > Bardic only. I meant, _after_ that mention the Gift is never mentioned > again, and there's circumstantial evidence against Vanyel having it. > Therefore I think Misty made a mistake. (Ooo! Blasphemy!) > (Authors aren't infallible; therefore it's left to us who love their > books to find explanations for the inconsistencies.) > > > The question is, did Van ever know that he had the Bardic Gift? > > Did he > > suppress this knowledge from himself, because it would cause him too much > > pain? After all, it was the lack of this gift that kept him out of Bardic > > Collegium. > > Yes. But I think that he was in too much pain over losing his > shay'kreth'ashke to worry about that. And I think he was largely > healed from his hurt about not getting in to the Bardic Collegium > when he played for Lendel. Besides, I think Yfandes would also try to > cure the trauma. As would the Hawkbrothers; after all, they > pressurized him to learn the magic, because otherwise he'd be > dangerous. Well, the Bardic Gift is dangerous too. > > > > And the Bardic Gift _would_ have been useful, even if not crucial; > > >didn't Vanyel worry about the Herald-Mages vs. "plain Heralds" > > >question (MPromise) - which was finally solved by Stefen (using, among > > >other things, the Gift). There are also numerous council meetings in > > >which it might be useful - and Herald ethics don't forbid all > > >manipulation. (Vanyel's lecture to Medren on the ethics of Gift use). > > >I think if Van had it he'd use it. > > > > I think Van just wasn't trained in the use of the Bardic Gift, and whether > > he knew he had it or not, did not keep it under conscious control. Just > > performing music is a very exhausting process, with or without the Gift to > > control as well. Would Van have ever noticed, if he did not know he had it? > > Why wouldn't he know? Why wouldn't he be trained? And besides, the > Bardic Gift is closely related to projective Empathy; Vanyel had > that, so why wouldn't he use the Bardic Gift (to calm Tashir, say), > when the weaker Empathy was insufficient? > > > > Also I just thought of the scene in MPromise when Vanyel is > > >talking with Jervis about Medren - doesn't he say straight out that > > >he "never had the gift"? He was good enough at performance to > > >qualify, and creativity seems less important (it's not referred to as > > >often as the two others), so I think he's talking of the Bardic > > >Gift. > > Van knows that he did not have the Bardic Gift when he auditioned for the > > Collegium. But (assuming he knows he has it), do you think he really wants > > to talk about how his gifts were awakened, and how he came to have it even > > after Bardic Collegium rejected him? > > I don't think Vanyel's that unbalanced. He might not want to talk > about it, but Heralds don't lie. Ever. It's proverbial. So if he says > he never had it, I think he means it. > > > >Besides, about training: Vanyel obviously was trained in using all his > > >other Gifts, even Healing which was a much lesser Gift for him than > > >the Bardic. So why wouldn't they teach him to use that too? > > >(It's been stated that Healing requires knowledge, and in MPrice Van > > >uses it to Heal himself, powering it with his Mage Gift. I think. > > >Therefore he has to have had training.) > > Don't forget that Van's Gift-training came from two Tayledras HEALING > > adepts. Of course he was trained in how to use his healing gift! But we > > never know if they can hold a tune with a bucket. > > Yes they can. Moondance played the flute in MPawn. (Btw, I doubt > that _all_ of Vanyel's Gift-training came from the Tayledras. They > don't use the mind-magic as much as Valdemarans, and Vanyel had _all_ > the Gifts, and powerful. I think he has to have had valdemaran > training too.) > Just because Moondance used the flute to focus his power (maybe) does not mean that he has the Bardic gift. > > > OTOH, the Bardic Gift doesn't seem to require training - Talia uses > > >it before having had _any_ Gift training. > > WHEN does Talia use the Bardic Gift? She is a very talented musician, but > > there is absolutely no mention of her having the Bardic Gift! > > Yes there is. > Jadus says something to the effect that "and I think you've got a > little trace of the Gift, too, little one" (heavy paraphrasing > there). Also, it's pointed out that "she sang with something more > than her heart and voice, something the finest training couldn't > impart.", when she's singing with Dirk and Kris. Now, that could > mean "she sang with her soul", but I think it refers to the Gift, > since it's said she has it. > > > > Catherine writes... > > >Argh. IT HAS BEEN STATED FLAT OUT AND DEMONSTRATED THAT A COMPANION -ANY > > >COMPANION!- CAN MINDSPEAK ANYONE S/HE DAMN WELL PLEASES. (Fit of > > >exasperation off.) If Rolan pleases he can speak to Talia and hear her > > >thoughts. Her personal gifts have nothing to do with it; companions can > > >speak to people with *no* gifts *at all* and hear their thoughts. Ex: > > >Yfandes and Stefen. Therefore, it must be Rolan's choice not to do so. > > > > NOPE! Don't believe it. Why do you assume that Stefen does not have the > > gift of mindspeaking? We are never told one way or the other!!! Again, if > > I am completely deaf, then I can't hear you talking to me. Likewise, if my > > mind is deaf to mindspeech, then I can't hear you (Companion or otherwise) > > speaking to me. > > Stefen didn't have Mindspeech. It's stated straight out. > Otherwise he could have shared his mind with Van when they -you know. > (to quote MPrice). I think Vanyel would have known, even though he > had never experienced lovers mindmelding before. > > > -Seanna, who's feeling rant-y > today :) > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Nov 95 10:18:25 EST From: mealink-+AT+-syd.au.swissbank.com (Kerry Mealing) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: more mindspeech... Message-ID: <9511142318.AA12120-+AT+-syd.au.swissbank.com> Wyvern wrote: > Kerry, > re: Shavri's bonding w/her companion: it *is* weaker. We're told > that in the scene where van says he wants to go after Master Dark and > the companions intervene. Ah.. I stand, err, sit, corrected. I just wondered though whether they meant it was a weaker bonding because Shavri didn't have any of the communication gifts or (hazy here) empathy - nothing that really let the companion lean on her to convince her Van should go.. Anyway.. :) Kerry. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Nov 1995 16:28:09 -0500 From: Tammy Harris To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: bios Message-ID: <5E6524A549B-+AT+-medicine.dmed.iupui.edu> Hi! This is a little late, but, hmm, well, here goes: My name is Tammy Harris. I'm 28, I have a degree in biochem, and I work in a research lab. I'm from Southern California (Los Angeles and San Diego), but am currently living (and freezing) in Indianapolis. This will be my second winter here, so I'm not really used to the cold, and I am *not* a happy camper. I've recently gotten really interested in painting,and I spend a lot of time making long distance phone calls. That's about it. Tammy "It's time to ask yourself what you believe." ------------------------------ End of MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 228 *********************************