MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 229 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re: mindspeech revisited... by Jennifer Broekman 2) Re: the latest poll by mealink-+AT+-syd.au.swissbank.com (Kerry Mealing) 3) Re: Companions and mindspeech by Jennifer Broekman 4) Re: Current discussion (Bardic Gift) by Jennifer Broekman 5) Re: more mindspeech... by Jennifer Broekman 6) Re: mindspeaking, Companions, and all th by Mat Timmerman 7) Re: mindspeaking, Companions, and all that jazz by Mat Timmerman 8) Re: bardic gift by Mat Timmerman 9) Re: Companions (and others) mindspeaking.. by Mat Timmerman 10) Re: Companions and mindspeech by Mat Timmerman 11) Re: mindspeaking, Companions, and all that jazz by Rosario Holsen-Baker 12) Re: Casting by Rosario Holsen-Baker 13) Re: Tomorrows Children by GLevine-+AT+-aol.com 14) Re: reality by Lisa Ellen Watermelon Waltz 15) Re: Casting by CHONNI 16) Re:"happy endings" by Lisa Ellen Watermelon Waltz 17) Re: Casting characrers... by Lisa Ellen Watermelon Waltz 18) Re: Dragonlance (off topic) by Mr CM George 19) Re: mindspeaking, Companions, and all that jazz by CHONNI 20) Re: Plea For Help, romances by Lisa Ellen Watermelon Waltz 21) Re: reality by Rosario Holsen-Baker ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 14 Nov 1995 18:34:50 -0500 (EST) From: Jennifer Broekman To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: mindspeech revisited... Message-ID: On Tue, 14 Nov 1995, Heather Mina wrote: > A note to everyone else: > This is going to look like a really bitchy argument that probably should > have been taken to personal mail. However, I want to defend myself by > saying that I have approached this discussion as I would any LITERARY > discussion. I have not brought my personal feelings about what I WISH > characters could do, or what I always thought they SHOULD be able to do. I > have tried as much as possible to consider the storylines of each novel, as > well as the group of Velgarth books as a whole. I would respectfully suggest that you reread the sections you're referring to, as you've come up with several wild theories that have no basis in the texts. > from jenneke... > >Bzzzt. Talia has enough thoughtsensing (the receptive version of > >MindSpeech) for her to get words when she's tranced down or they're > >carried by very strong emotions, the same way she can receive images. > Bzzzt right back at you! Talia doesn't have to trance down to receive > images. She receives them more clearly that way, but she can see through > Rolan's eyes just fine without being in trance. And I just don't believe > you about the thoughtsensing. Can you find any quotes? She doesn't have to trance down to get words, either, if the carrying emotion is strong. Or do you deny that she got words, as well as images and emotions, from both Nevan and Ylsa? Also, Ylsa says that Talia has at least a trace of thoughtsensing, and there's never any evidence that she doesn't, aside from your assertion that those who don't mindspeak with their Companions have no trace of the Gift at all. > >Rolan isn't 'allowed' to casually mindspeak Talia because she doesn't > >have enough of the Gift. *However*, this doesn't mean that he *can't*, > >just that it's 'not done'. > No way! You're contradicting yourself here. "Talia doesn't have enough of > the thoughtsensing gift. So Rolan doesn't mindspeak to her because > mindspeaking your Chosen is just 'not done'." This doesn't make sense. Not "mindspeaking your Chosen," but "mindspeaking your Chosen if s/he doesn't have more than a trace of the Gift in non-emergency situations." Is it really so difficult for you to comprehend that the Companions, especially the Companion from whom the rest take their direction, might have abilities that they don't exercise in the normal course of events? > Rolan doesn't mindspeak Talia because she can't hear him. Now mindspeaking > other people who are not your Chosen (like, oh, Dirk and Elspeth) is just > 'not done' unless there is a grave need. But Rolan does this anyway. He's > not so tradition-bound that he would be bound by 'just not done'. I believe you're the only one who insists that everyone who can hear the projections of a projective MindSpeaker *must* have the receptive Gift. Further, from what *I've* read, Rolan is quite tradition-bound, stepping out of 'what's done' only in the direst of emergencies. > >Bzzzt. Kyree communicate with Vanyel via mindspeech, in spite of the > >fact that they don't share a language and the fact that the kyree > >language isn't even close to Valdemaran (or Shin'a'in). And the theory > Bzzzt back at you again! The kyree communicate with Stefen, and not through > mindspeech!!! I did not mean to imply that the kyree were former human Sorry, the last five times I've read it, it sure *looked* like MindSpeech to me. But perhaps you're reading different books than I am. > >So, clearly, when Warrl was mindspeaking kyree howls at Tarma, there was > >no way for Tarma to understand him. Ditto for the kyree who spoke to > >Vanyel. Say, what??? > You're misunderstanding me. I can understand a "howl", even though it is > not in my language. Besides, the kyree in MPrice SPOKE OUT LOUD to Van and > Stefen! But if I mindspeak at you in a language that you don't know, then > how are you going to understand me? I think in English. Maria thinks in > Spanish. I don't know Spanish. So when Maria mindspeaks, it's all > gibberish to me. You may be able to understand a howl, but not to the extent of picking up sarcasm, unless you're much more gifted than I am, and we have repeated instances of Warrl's using sarcasm and Tarma having no difficulty understanding him, even early in their acquaintance. Further, although you have difficulty with the idea of MindSpeech being at a more basic level than verbal speech, I don't. Especially given the "pre-echo" as Kero calls it, I can easily imagine that MindSpeech is closer to the level of ideas than of words. The difference in thought patterns between speakers of different languages are more likely to result in the sorts of assumed understanding that we see, while complete inability to understand would show up in confusion which we *never* see. > >You're entirely missing the point I was making. There's no reason for the > >MOC to conceal that he's the same if he didn't die, but there *is* if he > >*did*. It's the opposite situation that I was talking about: the one > >where the *MOC* dies and the *MOH* doesn't. In that situation, allowing > >the Heralds to know that the MOC was the same spirit as the one who just > >died would place *way* too much emphasis on the fact that Companions are > >spirit-beings, not just 'special'. It would tend to make the Heralds > >think of the Companions as what they really are and to rely on them for > >miracles, instead of working things out themselves. > Sorry, but you're making a bad assumption. We are never told that the > "spirit" of the Monarch's Own Companion is the same one throughout the > years. What are you using as your basis for this assumption? This came up months ago. The general gist was that we have no idea how many MOCs there have been, and, since Companions can "go around" more than once (reference: Florian in _SR_), there's no reason why there would have to be more than one, except prehaps the spirit's frustration at having to deal with thickheaded humans without beating them over the head with their stupidities. > jenneke writes some more... > >That idea has been batted around on the list for at least as long as I've > >been on it. Also, the MOC DOES NOT AGE. He can be killed, but he > >doesn't age and he doesn't die if he isn't killed. > Where are you getting this from? Where is it ever said that the Monarch's > Own Companion does not age? As someone else has said, this is a direct quote from the books. Further, if the MOC aged then Rolan, who had been MOC throughout Talamir's career as MOH, should have been old and decrepit, instead of healthy and vigorous. > >Why, pray tell, does Kethry not count? She's got less mindspeech than > >Talia does, after all. > Says who? Who has tested Kethry for mindgifts? (Remember that her school > pretty much leaves mindgifts alone, as does just about everybody outside of > Valdemar) Says Kethry herself, in _BTS_, as someone else has pointed out. > No, I'm simply saying that WE DON'T KNOW whether they have a gift or not! > Most people on this mailing list assume that there is some miracle going on > where there is mindspeech with ungifted individuals. My point is that WE > DON'T KNOW whether these people are mindgifted or not. Keep in mind that In some of the cases you cited, we do know, or we have strong evidence, that the person in question does not have any more MindSpeech than Talia, whom you insist is utterly minddeaf. As far as I can tell, most people who've been contributing simply think that the projective gift doesn't require the receptive gift to function. This would be far more consistent with the other Gifts we've seen than the situation you're advocating. After all, Empathy, Healing, the Bardic Gift, the Mage Gift, and Fetching at least don't require the corresponding Gift in their subjects, even when the subject is another human. > Valdemar is just about the only place where mindgifts are freely accepted, > tested for, and trained. Mage schools are uncomfortable with them. No, they just don't concentrate on them, because without the amplifying effect of a Companion, strong mindgifts are rarer than the magegift and a lot less versatile. I've never seen any evidence that the mage schools we've been exposed to are any more uncomfortable with the mindgifts than the average musical school is uncomfortable with painting. They don't teach it, but they don't dislike it or disdain it or fear it, either. > > Tarma, for > >example, comments at one point that she was always surprised when Warrl > >spoke to her, because she was neither Gifted nor a mage (who could have a > >familiar-bond with a kyree). > No, Tarma comments that she does not have the mage gift. It is never stated > in the text whether Tarma might have a mindgift or not. I haven't read this section recently, but the strong implication that I read was that she didn't have any trace of any Gift which would normally allow mental communication. Also, she comments repeatedly that she's uncomfortable with Warrl "in her head", which would hardly be an apt description of the situation if she was projecting her thoughts to him. > And these inconsistencies, where she does not tell us who has gifts or > doesn't, support this theory. It's only an inconsistency if you insist that the projective Gifts require the receptive Gifts to be useful, a theory of which you seem to be the only proponent. > >Finally, Nyara (not Kyara) did > >not mindspeak to Need. She formed thoughts on the surface of her mind and > >Need read them, which requires that Need be able to read thoughts, but > >*not* that Nyara be able to project them. > Okay, I'll give you this one. But Need DID project thoughts to Nyara > (sorry). And it is said somewhere that Nyara has at least mage-potential. > We're just never told whether she has other gifts as well, in potential or > reality. Yes, Need has both the projective Gift and the receptive Gift. What she does when communicating with Nyara (or any other minddeaf person) is drop her thoughts into their mind and skim off the thoughts they think in response. The former is the essence of the projective Gift and the latter of the receptive Gift. > >If she'd never done it, why would she suggest that she trance down so > >Rolan could talk to her? If she couldn't mindhear, why would she get > >words along with the pictures and emotions that Nevan (?) sent during > >training? Why would she have gotten Ylsa's final words along with the > >image? Why does it seem that you'd prefer to believe that Misty is > However, I did not consider the episode with Nevan. I had, in all honesty, > forgotten about it. I will reconsider my position in light of it. But > please check out the paragraph above about the mindspeech being used as a > device. I am not saying that Misty is stupidly inconsistent, but that her > use of mindspeech in her books is not entirely consistent with what we would > expect. It is a valid argument that Companions and firecats (as well as any > other religious icons - which they most certainly ARE, being created by > god(dess)(es) to help humans) might have the ability to project into the > minds of non-gifted individuals. However, I always search for the > explanation which involves the least magic and hand-waving. It is the > mathematician in me. To me, positing that the receptive Gift is so incredibly common that everyone to whom a Companion, firecat, or non-human might have to communicate will have it is more extreme a stretch than to believe that non-humans (and probably strong humans, as well, but that's just conjecture) don't require the object of their projective mindspeech to possess receptive mindspeech. Certainly those with receptive mindspeech don't require those they're listening to to have projective mindspeech, or Kero would have had no chance of needing to build herself a crude shield to keep other people's thoughts out and Eldan would have been unable to spy on the Karsites. As for mindspeech being a device, of course it's a device. The question is whether it's a poorly or inconsistently used device or whether there are consistent rules which can be deduced from the way in which it appears in the novels. Upon what basis do you expect the use of mindspeech to be other than what appears in the novels? Where does it say that Companions *can*not (not do not) speak to those without receptive mindspeech? Is your insistence that Misty's use of the device is inconsistent based upon material in the novels or preconceptions from outside the novels? -jenneke jsb-+AT+-phantom.com new .sig in development ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Nov 95 10:50:43 EST From: mealink-+AT+-syd.au.swissbank.com (Kerry Mealing) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: the latest poll Message-ID: <9511142350.AA12314-+AT+-syd.au.swissbank.com> > Kerry wrote: > > Mmm, point taken.. that's why I caveat'd the comment.. > > One of the sad things about most common cultures in our world where one > > gay experience tends to 'brand' someone as gay forever, at least for > > males. It's possible that this contributes no small amount to homophobia > > (which in some cases seems to be the fear of being labelled 'gay' rather > > than actual fear of homosexuality, if that makes any sense).. > > It does make sense, unfortunately. But I don't think the branding is > based on who you slept with when you were 15 (after all, Master & > Johnson say a large percentage of males have had homosexual > experiences) but more on what you look/act/talk like - and who you > are seen with if you are a public person like a movie star. Mmm.. I'm not sure 'average' people classify others based on Master & Johnson though (or indeed believe M & J necessarily). I do agree though that appearance etc has a lot to do with it. > > > > As Karieva points out - the fact that he ends up with Winterhart doesn't > > > > make him non-bisexual. > > > > > > I agree on this. (though I don't think Amberdrake shows any desire > > > for any man?) > > > > I don't think he shows any *romantic* desire for a man, but I would think > > that some lust or physical desire would have to be there for him to function > > as a kestra'chern if a male patient required sex as part of the healing > > process. Maybe.. :) > > Call me a hopeless romantic :), but I still think the romantic desire > is the more important (or the more strongly defining) of the two. > Hmm. Do you think lust is necessary to have sex (or actually to make > love, since I think that's what the kestra'chern do)? Oh definitely. Romantic desire is more strongly defining.. I think I muddied things by using 'lust' there. To clarify: At least in the context of a kestra'chern, I do think from a purely practical point of view, (depending on what sex you're talkinga bout) physical desire is probably necessary. (Trying not to get too graphic here). And even if it's not necessary, I get the impression the kestra'chern sometimes use sex as a reassurance to their patient that they are desirable, and from that point of view, physical desire bolters that reassurance. > > Seanna, that's brilliant! It's one of the nicest ideas I've heard in > > some time. Certainly people still fall at either end of the spectrum > > (Firesong being exclusively 'gay', Darkwind being exclusively 'straight') > > but it'd replace labels with people, which IMO is a healthy thing. > > Rather than labelling people, it describes situations.. I like it. > > Why thank you. . I'm quite proud of still being able to think > after all the studying I've done. And all the forgetting-what-I've- > just-learned I've done... I just spent two days programming the wrong thing because of what might tactfully be called a communication breakdown. (Personally I think my coworker just changed her mind about the specification and didn't tell me But diplomatically, it's possible I misunderstood. Really..) > > I think there's still be 'bisexual' situations (heh, not people) > > given the Tayle'dras propensity for 'mating circles'. :) > > Do I sense certain, lessay, predatory tendencies here? Mating > circles, indeed... Me? Poor innocent me? (Hmm, think Kerry, salvage the situation.) Ah.. I was thinking of the situation in Winds where Elspeth nearly walks into the bathing pool with the stone indicating 'others welcome'. There.. how's that? Kerry. > -Seanna ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Nov 1995 19:02:33 -0500 (EST) From: Jennifer Broekman To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Companions and mindspeech Message-ID: On Tue, 14 Nov 1995, Heather Mina wrote: > I don't agree with your assertion that if (Companion <---> human) mindspeech > can't be equal in nature, then there can be none. While I will agree with > you that Companions do seem to go through many convultions and contortions > to keep the Heralds (and everybody else) from knowing what is going on with > them, I don't think they have that rigid a code on mindspeaking. I did not say "can not". I said "do not". Why do you not think they have that rigid a code on mindspeaking? They seem to have that rigid a code on talking about personal matters and on giving aid unasked, why not on mindspeaking at all? > I see it more as a matter of tradition. For one thing, the Companions are a > vastly superior race of beings in comparison to mere mortal humans. > Snobbery aside, I can't really seeing a Companion *wanting* to talk to a > person, mind-to-mind or otherwise. However, it has been ordained by some > god(dess)(es) that the Companion choose and bond with a single human (with > the exception of the MOC, who could potentially choose and bond with many > people over a lifetime); thus the Companion may be forced to speak to that Why do you think this? Are they any more above their Heralds than their Heralds are above non-Heralds? They make mistakes, factual errors, goof ups. They grieve, they feel joy, they desire revenge. Most tellingly, we have pretty good evidence that they are reincarnated Heralds themselves, so why should they be so superior to ordinary humans that only the decree of a god or gods could force them into existing at all? Frankly, I have an entirely different picture of them, myself. Namely, that they are fallible, if powerful, spirits, many of whom were Heralds themselves in previous existences, who choose to become incarnate out of a desire to be useful, helpful, or return a favor in a general sense. > people to become Heralds (well, duh! Mindgifted people are the easiest - if > not the only (I'm not trying to perpetuate the debate; I'm just calling > attention to the issue)- people they can talk to!), and that they pretty Sayvil says flat out that Companions can talk to whomever they feel like talking to and that the others don't because of an adherence to rules that she feels are stupid and pointless. Can it be any more clear that Companions, at least, don't require receptive mindspeech in their target to get their meaning across? > >IMO, in this case, Occam's Razor argues for Rolan *choosing* not to > >MindSpeak Talia, not being unable to, regardless of the reason for his > >supposed inability. > I think we've all pretty much agreed that any "inability" would not lie on > Rolan's side but on Talia's. If you are deaf, then I am unable to communicate audibly with you. This does not mean that the cause of the inability lies with me, just that it exists. If you are hard of hearing, then I am able to communicate audibly with you, even if it takes great energy expense. If I do not, then I am choosing not to, not being unable. > jenneke writes again... > >between Vanyel and the kyree. We've never seen a situation in which > >MindSpeakers from different cultures have any difficulty understanding > >each other and plenty of instances in which they have no difficulty at > >all. Why the assumption that they *should*? Especially when we've seen > >non-MindSpeakers have language barrier problems (Kero's troops in > >Valdemar). > The assumption is made because the word "mindspeak" implies language. I'm > sorry, but you can NOT speak without using language. You can cry or whimper > or scream, but not speak. It is true that Misty does not present any > situations where mindspeakers have a problem crossing cultural and/or > language barriers. But I think this is a grave inconsistency on her part, > breaking her own laws of magic, if you will. If it were called > "thoughtcasting" or something like that, then I would accept instantly that > there might not be a language problem, because there is nothing mentioned > that refers to the mechanics of language. However, Misty chose to call it > "Mindspeaking", which implies the use of language; therefore, I must assume > that the communication is verbal in nature, and hence relies on the > mindspeaker's spoken language. I see. You solve the problem of Misty never showing a mindspoken language barrier by assigning the blame to inconsistency on her part, while I solve it by assigning the blame to my (and RL human in general) imperfect understanding of how thought becomes verbal speech. I see little problem in having the translation occur (not necessarily perfectly, we do see some misunderstandings between people of different cultures) in the process of transmission. In other words, if we speak different languages, you send in your language, but I pick up the signals in mine, and vice versa. This may not work in, say, computer communication, but I don't think we have enough knowledge to say that it can't in ESP. > To work on particular examples, though, Tarma is Shin'a'in, and Warrl is > presumably a descendent of the kaled'a'in, so their languages would be > similar in nature. Likewise Vanyel and the kyree colony - Van spoke > Tayledras, which is again very similar to kaled'a'in. The kyree are not all descendents of the Kaled'a'in, if you read _The Black Gryphon_ carefully. The Kaled'a'in are the ancestors of the Shin'a'in, the Tayledras, and part of the ancestors of the human portion of K'Leshya. The non-human portion of K'Leshya is clan by adoption, and spoke their own language prior to the adoption. Since not all of Urtho's non-human forces went with K'Leshya, the majority of (civilized) non-humans have no ties with the Kaled'a'in at all, other than having fought on the same side long ago. There is no evidecne that the language which kyree speak bears any resemblance at all to any human language. In fact, given the structure of either the lupine or the feline mouth, speech that was anything at all like any human language would be impossible for them. (Beaks are, by comparison, easy to form words with.) -jenneke jsb-+AT+-phantom.com new .sig in development ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Nov 1995 19:07:42 -0500 (EST) From: Jennifer Broekman To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Current discussion (Bardic Gift) Message-ID: On Tue, 14 Nov 1995, Mikkel Larsen wrote: > mention of it, in Highjorune he poses as a minstrel *not* as a Bard and > minstrels does not have the Bardic Gift. Yes, but he did this to avoid attracting attention. Later, when he wants to attract attention, he poses as a Bard. My opinion? He had it, and he probably used it, at least subconsciously, any time he had to play and influence people at the same time. However, given his duties, he probably wasn't in that situation often. -jenneke jsb-+AT+-phantom.com new .sig in development ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Nov 1995 19:23:31 -0500 (EST) From: Jennifer Broekman To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: more mindspeech... Message-ID: On Tue, 14 Nov 1995, Alison Schiff wrote: > On Tue, 14 Nov 1995, Jennifer Broekman wrote: > > Why would a kyree scout, in an area not containing Tayledras, speak > > Tayledras to two random humans *without* knowing if they could speak it? > > Well if Tayledras (or shin'a'in or kaled'a'in) was the only human > language you knew, what other language would you use to greet a couple of > human strangers? > Also, even if the kyree were not in a very populated (by humans) > area, as long as they know that the humans exhist it would make sense for > them to learn the language. They are certainly intelligent enough to see > the advantages to this. ("don't shoot me I'm intelligent!", or "I've been > hurt and separated far from my kin, please help me" etc...) I'm not convinced that Tayledras is the logical language for them to have learned. I don't think that all of the humans to the north and west of Valdemar speak Tayledras, for one, and were I kyree, I'd expect to have the least trouble convincing Tayledras of my peaceful intent and intelligence. (The reason I don't think that Tayledras is the common language in the wilds outside Valdemar is that it's very rarely known inside Valdemar, and languages percolate across borders (in both directions) unless one side is deliberately being reclusive. IMO, it's much more in-character for the Tayledras to speak trade tongue to the other humans than to speak Tayledras, limitting the access to the tongue and the utility of the tongue for other beings.) -jenneke jsb-+AT+-phantom.com new .sig in development ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Nov 1995 20:05:39 -0400 (EDT) From: Mat Timmerman To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: mindspeaking, Companions, and all th Message-ID: <01HXN97BH0CI94EA68-+AT+-vaxc.hofstra.edu> From: SMHA86B-+AT+-prodigy.com (MISS MARIA T FOGEL) > >jenneke >>Vanyel's eyes were silver because they started out grey >I'd always thought that his eyes were naturally silver. Could someone >look that up? > > >wyvern Isn't it mentioned several places that he inherited them from Treesa? Mat accmjt-+AT+-vaxc.hofstra.edu Windows 95: Why not just get a Mac? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Nov 1995 20:10:50 -0400 (EDT) From: Mat Timmerman To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: mindspeaking, Companions, and all that jazz Message-ID: <01HXN9B8YXWO94EA68-+AT+-vaxc.hofstra.edu> From: Rosario Holsen-Baker ..major snippage... > > DAMMIT, Lavaan, stop doing that! > Hey, we've got another reincarnated Herald here! It's Lavan Firestorm! The Herald who can fight Dark Servants on the Border of Rethwellan, while they are on the Northern Border :)! Why am I ending every sentence with a '!' ?! Mat! accmjt-+AT+-vaxc.hofstra.edu VAX is the source of all evil. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Nov 1995 20:34:05 -0400 (EDT) From: Mat Timmerman To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: bardic gift Message-ID: <01HXNA3HPCX494EA68-+AT+-vaxc.hofstra.edu> From: Sanna Koulu > > Heather Mina wrote: >(SNIP) >> > OTOH, the Bardic Gift doesn't seem to require training - Talia uses >> >it before having had _any_ Gift training. >> WHEN does Talia use the Bardic Gift? She is a very talented musician, but >> there is absolutely no mention of her having the Bardic Gift! > >Yes there is. >Jadus says something to the effect that "and I think you've got a >little trace of the Gift, too, little one" (heavy paraphrasing >there). Also, it's pointed out that "she sang with something more >than her heart and voice, something the finest training couldn't >impart.", when she's singing with Dirk and Kris. Now, that could >mean "she sang with her soul", but I think it refers to the Gift, >since it's said she has it. > Jadus says that she has a trace of the Talent, not the Gift. Talent, as in the only Bardic requirement that Vanyel had pre-Herald. I think that your thought about Talia singing "with her soul" is more correct. Dirk's thoughts about Talia's voice could also indicate his already growing lifebond-induced obsession. Mat accmjt-+AT+-vaxc.hofstra.edu VAX is the source of all evil. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Nov 1995 20:38:17 -0400 (EDT) From: Mat Timmerman To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Companions (and others) mindspeaking.. Message-ID: <01HXNA9CY80E94EA68-+AT+-vaxc.hofstra.edu> From: Staci Schoenfeld > >At 09:56 AM 11/14/95 GMT, you wrote: >>Another lurker here! If you'll recall, after Rolan chose Talia, she >>seems to remember someone (Rolan?) telling her something while she was >>either sleeping or in a trance . . . don't have my books with me, so I >>don't remember exactly . . . but IMHO this says that Rolan could >>mindspeak with her. Now she may have had to be in a trance, but he >>could. I doubt it was *his* ability that was lacking, but was hers. >I don't think that Rolan's ability was lacking either. But has anyone >noticed just how stilted his "speech" sounds when he is talking with Dirk >and Elspeth when they all team up to rescue Talia. I hadn't noticed it >before, but just reread them and definately noticed it this time. What do >you think the reason for his mode of speech is? From lack of use and >practice, or his age? We really don't know how old he is. > Yes, ":Man. Dirk. Herald.:" _is_ pretty stilted. I think, though that's he's just trying to be formal. It reinforces his authority as a Grove-born to sound formal and commanding. Mat accmjt-+AT+-vaxc.hofstra.edu Windows 95: Why not just get a Mac? (ick) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Nov 1995 20:49:53 -0400 (EDT) From: Mat Timmerman To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Companions and mindspeech Message-ID: <01HXNALAEGAA94EA68-+AT+-vaxc.hofstra.edu> From: Jennifer Broekman > >On Tue, 14 Nov 1995, Heather Mina wrote: > >> The assumption is made because the word "mindspeak" implies language. I'm >> sorry, but you can NOT speak without using language. You can cry or whimper >> or scream, but not speak. It is true that Misty does not present any >> situations where mindspeakers have a problem crossing cultural and/or >> language barriers. But I think this is a grave inconsistency on her part, >> breaking her own laws of magic, if you will. If it were called >> "thoughtcasting" or something like that, then I would accept instantly that >> there might not be a language problem, because there is nothing mentioned >> that refers to the mechanics of language. However, Misty chose to call it >> "Mindspeaking", which implies the use of language; therefore, I must assume >> that the communication is verbal in nature, and hence relies on the >> mindspeaker's spoken language. > >I see. You solve the problem of Misty never showing a mindspoken >language barrier by assigning the blame to inconsistency on her part, >while I solve it by assigning the blame to my (and RL human in general) >imperfect understanding of how thought becomes verbal speech. I see >little problem in having the translation occur (not necessarily >perfectly, we do see some misunderstandings between people of different >cultures) in the process of transmission. In other words, if we speak >different languages, you send in your language, but I pick up the signals >in mine, and vice versa. This may not work in, say, computer >communication, but I don't think we have enough knowledge to say that it >can't in ESP. > The way I see it is that it is not words that are sent. Insead, it is pure thought that is sent. Sort of like the sender is not really thinking in words, but it seems to him/her that he/she is. Then the receiver's mind understands the pure thought, but to the receiver, it sounds like his/her own language. Mat accmjt-+AT+-vaxc.hofstra.edu VAX is the source of all evil. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Nov 1995 21:43:38 -0500 (EST) From: Rosario Holsen-Baker To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: mindspeaking, Companions, and all that jazz Message-ID: > .major snippage... > > > > DAMMIT, Lavaan, stop doing that! > > > > Hey, we've got another reincarnated Herald here! It's Lavan Firestorm! > The Herald who can fight Dark Servants on the Border of Rethwellan, > while they are on the Northern Border :)! > > Why am I ending every sentence with a '!' ?! > > Mat! > accmjt-+AT+-vaxc.hofstra.edu > VAX is the source of all evil. He's who?? Lavaan, don't try to block me out, that won't work! And just how many of you have been playing with our minds like.... like...oh dear, what was I talking about again? La-vaan... All right, how many of you out there are having this problem with your Companions? |-------------------------------<>-------------------------------| | "So, so you think you can tell/Heaven from Hell | | Blue skies from pain/Can you tell a green field | | From a cold steel rail/A smile from a veil | | Do you think you can tell?" | |------------------------------------------------------------------------| ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Nov 1995 22:12:30 -0500 (EST) From: Rosario Holsen-Baker To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Casting Message-ID: All right, folks, it's TIME FOR ANOTHER POLL! Yep, this one has to do with casting. Please e-mail me privately and give me your cast lists for the VALDEMAR BOOKS ONLY. I'm not taking on the whole bunch of Misty's books! I'll post the results in about two weeks. -Jaguar, getting really tired of her Companion Lavaan playing around with her mind and memories... |-------------------------------<>-------------------------------| | "So, so you think you can tell/Heaven from Hell | | Blue skies from pain/Can you tell a green field | | From a cold steel rail/A smile from a veil | | Do you think you can tell?" | |------------------------------------------------------------------------| ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Nov 1995 23:16:06 -0500 From: GLevine-+AT+-aol.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Tomorrows Children Message-ID: <951114231604_22804706-+AT+-mail04.mail.aol.com> Especially to Lill I found a copy of 'Tomorrow's Children' in paperback in an SF bookstore in LA about ten years ago. I am now a proud owner. It was published by Orbit (?) in 1981. Perhaps a bookstore could order it for you. Gail ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Nov 1995 21:24:26 -0700 (MDT) From: Lisa Ellen Watermelon Waltz To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: reality Message-ID: On Tue, 7 Nov 1995 RUNDLE-+AT+-wilma.bcasd.az.honeywell.com wrote: > Maybe I've been sucked too > far into reality or something. Quick!!!!! Somebody do something! We can't let this poor person get away from us!!!!!!!!!!! Do CPR or something! The Heimlik manuver! Just don't let them escape! Zoe Guin, who strives to add to the insane by daily insanity in close proximity to the young and suseptable. kitty-+AT+-unm.edu The computer is mightier than the pen, the sword, and usually, the programmer. -Jennifer Nolan Suika no hmpg ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Nov 1995 20:27:01 -0800 (PST) From: CHONNI To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Casting Message-ID: On Tue, 14 Nov 1995, Staci Schoenfeld wrote: > How about Gerard Depardieu for Alberich? The accent might work in his favor.... nononononono. My vote goes for Patrick Stewart! Remember him in Dune? He's a shoe in. yes, my flame proof suit is on! *********************************************************************** -Chonni Brightwolf (Katherine Moll, student) University College of the Cariboo British Columbia, CANADA ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Nov 1995 21:32:32 -0700 (MDT) From: Lisa Ellen Watermelon Waltz To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re:"happy endings" Message-ID: Do we really _need_ all these "happy endings" which taste of artificial sweetening? Unfortunately, yes. So I'm a hopeless romantic. At least I can read something with a plot and some real people to it, rather than a trashy romance. I'm trying very hard to quit, and these constant happy endings really help. Zoe Guin, who has just admitted a horrendous problem and should get lots of sympathy kitty-+AT+-unm.edu The computer is mightier than the pen, the sword, and usually, the programmer. -Jennifer Nolan Suika no hmpg ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Nov 1995 21:37:01 -0700 (MDT) From: Lisa Ellen Watermelon Waltz To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Casting characrers... Message-ID: > Mat -- feeling like a drug dealer :) If you feel like a drug dealer, then I feel like a very desparate addict, selling family members for the drugs. Unfortunately, they see through my desparate attempts, and I still have no filk to my name. Zoe Guin {(*j*)} kitty-+AT+-unm.edu The computer is mightier than the pen, the sword, and usually, the programmer. -Jennifer Nolan ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Nov 1995 15:37:03 +1100 (EST) From: Mr CM George To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Dragonlance (off topic) Message-ID: MISS MARIA T FOGEL wrote: >Irene, > RE: dragonlance: Rastlin is also my fav. char. I stopped reading >after the series about him and his twin. I never *could* find the 1st >bk of that, but no matter... I'm glad he finally redeemed himself at >the end... It always annoys me when my fav char's turn bad or die or >something... > > >wyvern Raistlin seems to have been a great many people's fav. character from the Dragonlance books, including mine. There are some great books around about Caramon's (sp?) sons - ie. Raistlin's nephews - which I really enjoyed. One of Raistlin's nephews goes for The Test... think of the effect this has on Caramon. (I forget the titles I'm sorry, but looking through the blurbs should identify the book fairly quickly. I think the particular story is in a book of short stories, and while I still think Raist was the greatest character I found it worthwhile finding out about the "next generation" of DL characters. Well, that's enough ranting from me for another semester. ========================================================================== Craig George (E-mail cmgeo1-+AT+-ccds.cc.monash.edu.au) http://www.cc.monash.edu.au/people/cmgeo1/index.html ========================================================================== "We don't like what we don't understand, in fact it scares us." (Disney's Beauty and the Beast) ========================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Nov 1995 20:47:27 -0800 (PST) From: CHONNI To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: mindspeaking, Companions, and all that jazz Message-ID: On Wed, 15 Nov 1995, Rosario Holsen-Baker wrote: > He's who?? Lavaan, don't try to block me out, that won't work! > And just how many of you have been playing with our minds like.... > like...oh dear, what was I talking about again? La-vaan... > > All right, how many of you out there are having this problem with > your Companions? Well, Phereze tries, but I've learned that everytime my mind gets fuzzy...what was I saying? Oh, well, when it happens, I know I'm on to something. I find that a keeping a journal written in Shin'a'in (phonetically), and thinking while he's *busy* , helps! Besides, after Sayvil started blabbing everything, Phereze let up a little. Or did he??? *********************************************************************** -Chonni Brightwolf (Katherine Moll, student) University College of the Cariboo British Columbia, CANADA ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Nov 1995 21:50:07 -0700 (MDT) From: Lisa Ellen Watermelon Waltz To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Plea For Help, romances Message-ID: I, too, share in that horrible habit, no one knows why, and have found that Misty has what I want when it comes to romance. In fact, according to Seanna, Storm Rising has a sickening romance for Karal. I've got to get that book! Good Luck, you'll need it. Zoe Guin {(*j*)} kitty-+AT+-unm.edu The computer is mightier than the pen, the sword, and usually, the programmer. -Jennifer Nolan Suika no hmpg ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Nov 1995 23:56:45 -0500 (EST) From: Rosario Holsen-Baker To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: reality Message-ID: On Wed, 15 Nov 1995, Lisa Ellen Watermelon Waltz wrote: > On Tue, 7 Nov 1995 RUNDLE-+AT+-wilma.bcasd.az.honeywell.com wrote: > > > Maybe I've been sucked too > > far into reality or something. > Quick!!!!! Somebody do something! We can't let this poor person > get away from us!!!!!!!!!!! Do CPR or something! The Heimlik manuver! > Just don't let them escape! > Zoe Guin, who strives to add to the > insane by daily insanity in close proximity to the young and suseptable. Get "that poor person" a Companion. THat ought to do it. -Jaguar, still sulking 'cause her Companion isn't being contrite enough about messing with my mind. |-------------------------------<>-------------------------------| | "So, so you think you can tell/Heaven from Hell | | Blue skies from pain/Can you tell a green field | | From a cold steel rail/A smile from a veil | | Do you think you can tell?" | |------------------------------------------------------------------------| ------------------------------ End of MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 229 *********************************