MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 230 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re: Red Dwarf by Lisa Ellen Watermelon Waltz 2) Re: Hodgell by Lisa Ellen Watermelon Waltz 3) Re: Casting characrers... by Lisa Ellen Watermelon Waltz 4) Re: Casting by Staci Schoenfeld 5) Innocent? Where?! by Lisa Ellen Watermelon Waltz 6) Re: Noel Streatfield by Lisa Ellen Watermelon Waltz 7) Re: Casting characrers... by Lisa Ellen Watermelon Waltz 8) Re: Farinelli's charactor by Lisa Ellen Watermelon Waltz 9) Re: bardic gift by "Sanna Koulu" 10) Re: Picky Readers by Lisa Ellen Watermelon Waltz 11) Re: Van's Bardic Gift by "Sanna Koulu" 12) Re: bios by Lisa Ellen Watermelon Waltz 13) Re: more MOC and mindspeaking by "Sanna Koulu" 14) Re: Blue Eyes by Lisa Ellen Watermelon Waltz 15) Re: Casting by duvall.23-+AT+-postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu (Stacy Hunt DuVall) 16) Re: MERCEDES-LACKEY digest 213 by Lisa Ellen Watermelon Waltz 17) Re: Companions and mindspeech by "Sanna Koulu" 18) Re: Companions and mindspeech by "Sanna Koulu" 19) Re: more mindspeech... by "Sanna Koulu" 20) Re: Current discussion (Bardic Gift) by "Sanna Koulu" 21) Re: Hodgell by jc-+AT+-crosfield.co.uk (Jerry Cullingford) 22) Re: mindspeech revisited... (technical complaints) by "Sanna Koulu" 23) Re: Companions and mindspeech by jc-+AT+-crosfield.co.uk (Jerry Cullingford) 24) Re: mindspeaking, Companions, and all that jazz by "Sanna Koulu" 25) Re: mindspeech revisited... (technical complaints) by mel (Melanie Dymond Harper) 26) Re: the latest poll by "Sanna Koulu" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 14 Nov 1995 22:01:49 -0700 (MDT) From: Lisa Ellen Watermelon Waltz To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Red Dwarf Message-ID: I saw your letter and...arghhhh!...our account ceased to exist. So, and I know I am asking alot, could you please resend it or a similar one? Thanks a million. However, don't lets have everyone sending, 'kay? Mother's orders. I really like my mailing list. It's really sad I don't exist. I'd like to think that I'll be missed. But until then I'll just be pissed. Zoe Guin, aspiring poet(Not a bad one, though, I hope, or Kerowyn might have to kill me. Look at her reaction to Eldan!) kitty-+AT+-unm.edu The computer is mightier than the pen, the sword, and usually, the programmer. -Jennifer Nolan Suika no hmpg ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Nov 1995 22:08:39 -0700 (MDT) From: Lisa Ellen Watermelon Waltz To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Hodgell Message-ID: Hi. I'm trying to shrink a bit. We sorta lost all of our mail when our account disappeared, and, space cadets that we are (although mama kitty has been promoted to full commander now), forgot to write the titles of the other books down. Could you, squirm, please send us that information again? Asking alot. And no, I will not say this is from Zoe. I will not take the blame for mama's stupidity. kitty-+AT+-unm.edu The computer is mightier than the pen, the sword, and usually, the programmer. -Jennifer Nolan Suika no hmpg ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Nov 1995 22:18:35 -0700 (MDT) From: Lisa Ellen Watermelon Waltz To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Casting characrers... Message-ID: I'll second that! Zoe Guin, who nobody could possible understand because she can't understand herself. I mean the Farinelli thread. kitty-+AT+-unm.edu The computer is mightier than the pen, the sword, and usually, the programmer. -Jennifer Nolan Suika no hmpg ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Nov 1995 21:21:02 -0800 From: Staci Schoenfeld To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Casting Message-ID: <199511150521.VAA25959-+AT+-stealth.romoidoy.com> At 04:57 AM 11/15/95 GMT, you wrote: > >On Tue, 14 Nov 1995, Staci Schoenfeld wrote: > >> How about Gerard Depardieu for Alberich? The accent might work in his favor.... > >nononononono. My vote goes for Patrick Stewart! Remember him in Dune? >He's a shoe in. yes, my flame proof suit is on! Patick Stewart --hmmm.... I may just be swayed by that. I just think that an English accent is ALL wrong for Alberich. Staci ------------------------------------------------------------ Staci Schoenfeld http://www.zoom.com/personal/staci/staci1.htm ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Nov 1995 22:22:20 -0700 (MDT) From: Lisa Ellen Watermelon Waltz To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Innocent? Where?! Message-ID: Now, let me get this straight. There are actually innocent people on this list?! How do you use this word? Definition? And, preverted little me, what are -erns? Wherefore art they found? Zoe Guin, currently ravishing Romeo and Juliet, at the unfortunately slow pace set by her teachers and peers. kitty-+AT+-unm.edu The computer is mightier than the pen, the sword, and usually, the programmer. -Jennifer Nolan Suika no hmpg ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Nov 1995 22:37:20 -0700 (MDT) From: Lisa Ellen Watermelon Waltz To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Noel Streatfield Message-ID: I managed to acquire two of his books, Ballet Shoes, and, I believe, Dancing Shoes. My grandmother decided that I was going through a "toe shoe craving" stage. Anywho, I didn't really get into them, and I was wondering, do you think it's worth my time to go back and try again? Zoe Guin {(*j*)} kitty-+AT+-unm.edu The computer is mightier than the pen, the sword, and usually, the programmer. -Jennifer Nolan Suika no hmpg ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Nov 1995 22:58:18 -0700 (MDT) From: Lisa Ellen Watermelon Waltz To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Casting characrers... Message-ID: I'm so very sorry, but.....who is Nuno? I believe you that he is probably very good, but I'm a little behind the times and have never heard of most anyone mentioned on this list. Zoe Guin {(*j*)} kitty-+AT+-unm.edu The computer is mightier than the pen, the sword, and usually, the programmer. -Jennifer Nolan Suika no hmpg ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Nov 1995 22:59:38 -0700 (MDT) From: Lisa Ellen Watermelon Waltz To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Farinelli's charactor Message-ID: Which movie is this? Zoe Guin {(*j*)} kitty-+AT+-unm.edu The computer is mightier than the pen, the sword, and usually, the programmer. -Jennifer Nolan Suika no hmpg ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Nov 1995 08:16:11 EET From: "Sanna Koulu" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: bardic gift Message-ID: <11C924A5A89-+AT+-otdk.helsinki.fi> Mat wrote: > From: Sanna Koulu > > > > Heather Mina wrote: > >(SNIP) > >> > OTOH, the Bardic Gift doesn't seem to require training - Talia uses > >> >it before having had _any_ Gift training. > >> WHEN does Talia use the Bardic Gift? She is a very talented musician, but > >> there is absolutely no mention of her having the Bardic Gift! > > > >Yes there is. > >Jadus says something to the effect that "and I think you've got a > >little trace of the Gift, too, little one" (heavy paraphrasing > >there). Also, it's pointed out that "she sang with something more > >than her heart and voice, something the finest training couldn't > >impart.", when she's singing with Dirk and Kris. Now, that could > >mean "she sang with her soul", but I think it refers to the Gift, > >since it's said she has it. > > > Jadus says that she has a trace of the Talent, not the Gift. > Talent, as in the only Bardic requirement that Vanyel had > pre-Herald. I think that your thought about Talia singing "with > her soul" is more correct. Dirk's thoughts about Talia's voice > could also indicate his already growing lifebond-induced obsession. "Talent" in that meaning means ability to sing and play; it's "mechanical" and can be practiced. Talia has also that; she is said to have a "true" voice, and can play the pipes... actually I think she has more than "just a trace" of that kind of talent. I think "Talent" here is used in a different meaning, since AotQ was written first. So I still think "Talent" here means "Gift", especially since the root meanings (and the capitalization, which Misty uses to connote magic!) of the words are the same. -Seanna, who's not explaining this too well... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Nov 1995 23:17:17 -0700 (MDT) From: Lisa Ellen Watermelon Waltz To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Picky Readers Message-ID: I'm even worse then you might think. I can't afford the hardcovers, and unless absolutely necessary I buy used paperbacks. I'm the type that can't keep anything from getting dirty, ripped, torn, shredded, etc., and I prefer to not feel guilty about the destruction. I cannot not damage a book, so it's best if I get it worn out, and then the guilt is not on my shoulders. Zoe Guin, admitting yet another of her few faults. (Yeah, right. Sure. We believe you. ) kitty-+AT+-unm.edu The computer is mightier than the pen, the sword, and usually, the programmer. -Jennifer Nolan Suika no hmpg ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Nov 1995 08:28:46 EET From: "Sanna Koulu" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Van's Bardic Gift Message-ID: <11CC7E23CBB-+AT+-otdk.helsinki.fi> Wyvern wrote: > >But he _does_ use all of his other Gifts, > > Misty never says he *doesn't* use that Gift. She never specifically > shows him using Fetching > but he has *that*... Yes she does. In MPrice after the crow thing killed Savil, Vanyel Fetches it back and destroys it with Mage-power. > re: Van saying to Jevris he never had the Gift: you're probably right > that that's where he says it... my point is, when he says he neve Tah Daaah! I found it! the evidence I was looking for! Here: MPromise (1st ed pb) page 94: Vanyel says "Medren! You are better than I was, even at fifteen. In a few years you are going to be better than I could ever hope to be if I practiced every hour of my life. You have the Bardic-Gift, lad, and that's something no amount of training will give." I think that's pretty conclusive! Vanyel can't be better than Medren, even if he practiced all his life, since _he doesn't have the Gift_. Also check page 96... "and _he_ has the Gift", implying Vanyel doesn't. And no, I just don't swallow the suppression theory. Van wasn't _that_ hurt after Lendel cured him from the Bardic obsession. Even MPawn said, talking of Van's Gifts (page 215) "...as if the gods were offering a pittance as compensation." implying, I think, that for the boy whose lifebonded just suicided, the Bardic Gift just ain't that important. Vanyel is strong enough to handle it! -Seanna ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Nov 1995 23:31:43 -0700 (MDT) From: Lisa Ellen Watermelon Waltz To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: bios Message-ID: You first, Wyvern! Zoe Guin {(*j*)} You'll Thank Me In The Morning!!!!! *grin* kitty-+AT+-unm.edu The computer is mightier than the pen, the sword, and usually, the programmer. -Jennifer Nolan Suika no hmpg ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Nov 1995 08:35:38 EET From: "Sanna Koulu" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: more MOC and mindspeaking Message-ID: <11CE57F55E7-+AT+-otdk.helsinki.fi> Heather Mina wrote: > Seanna writes. > >I maintain that Rolan was too weak a Mindspeaker to bespeak Talia > >ordinarily - he would have needed her to trance. If Talia _or_ Rolan > >was better at Mindspeaking, Talia wouldn't have needed to. I > >wonder if Rolan had tranced, would he have been able to bespeak Talia > >without her doing it too? What do you think? > > Sorry, but if Rolan is so weak a mindspeaker, then how did he carry it off > so neatly when he spoke to Dirk and Elspeth? Because they were Mindspeakers! My point was, if both the sender and the receiver have the Gift, their range (and thus, the ease of communication) is better than if only one of them has it! This is even kind of "proved" somewhere in LHM... now if I could only find the spot... > > >No, I think it was quite literal in that case. Besides the wording of > >the spot (I really should check it), well, Valdemarans were strong > >enough Mindspeakers to be "Adepts". I don't think Elspeth would > >be that surprised by just a loud voice. > > Think about it a little. Adept mindspeakers would have _control_, so they > would not be overloud if they could help it. Therefore, someone with a very > loud voice would startle a Herald, who was used to people with good control > over their gifts. I am thinking about it, and given the general tone of the situation, I just don't believe it. We're talking of a person who makes a gate out of thin air! Something that's never been seen before. I just don't think he'd be that untrained! I'll find the spot... > It's like a very young toddler (like 12 to 18 months old), who > has no > control over the loudness of his physical voice. If you ask a toddler to be > quiet, he won't - not because he is bad and disobedient, but because he > doesn't know how. Likewise, someone whose gift is not in complete control. An adult can scream louder than a kid. He might have better control, but the maximum volume he can produce is bigger. -Seanna ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Nov 1995 23:56:58 -0700 (MDT) From: Lisa Ellen Watermelon Waltz To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Blue Eyes Message-ID: Just another thought, who here has seen Aladin? And who here has been subjected to it 5 times in one year? And who here just got out of a class full of 7 graders, who were Jasmine for Halloween? Well, anywho, I think that Disney picked up on this or something with that hideous (I saw it once and gagged, the remaining four times I tried to hang myself. The teacher wouldn't let me. So you can see where I might be slightly disgusted with anything connected to the movie.) blue-green color they got specifically for Aladin; Jasmine's clothes, the water, etc. Zoe Guin {(*j*)} kitty-+AT+-unm.edu The computer is mightier than the pen, the sword, and usually, the programmer. -Jennifer Nolan Suika no hmpg ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Nov 1995 02:03:29 -0500 From: duvall.23-+AT+-postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu (Stacy Hunt DuVall) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Casting Message-ID: <199511150703.CAA12816-+AT+-postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu> On Wed, 15 Nov 1995, Chonni wrote: >On Tue, 14 Nov 1995, Staci Schoenfeld wrote: >> How about Gerard Depardieu for Alberich? The accent might work in his favor.... > >nononononono. My vote goes for Patrick Stewart! Remember him in Dune? >He's a shoe in. yes, my flame proof suit is on! Patrick Stewart....hmmm, I'm not convinced. He's a little too smooth for Alberich, IMO. I picture a more rugged, silent guy like Clint Eastwood. Just my $0.05 (inflation, folks :-) Stacy Hunt DuVall duvall.23-+AT+-osu.edu "What's my loftiest ambition? I've always wanted to throw an egg at an electric fan." ---? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Nov 1995 00:04:10 -0700 (MDT) From: Lisa Ellen Watermelon Waltz To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: MERCEDES-LACKEY digest 213 Message-ID: > (Okay, kid, time for your medication now.) > Yep, just let me take care of it... Don't worry it will make you feel > better. Um, are we supposed to trust you after what Hulda did to Melody in Arrows? Zoe Guin {(*j*)} kitty-+AT+-unm.edu The computer is mightier than the pen, the sword, and usually, the programmer. -Jennifer Nolan Suika no hmpg ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Nov 1995 10:12:12 EET From: "Sanna Koulu" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Companions and mindspeech Message-ID: <11E816A6A34-+AT+-otdk.helsinki.fi> Mat wrote: (SNIP) > From: Jennifer Broekman > > > >On Tue, 14 Nov 1995, Heather Mina wrote: > > > >> The assumption is made because the word "mindspeak" implies language. I'm > >> sorry, but you can NOT speak without using language. You can cry or whimper > >> or scream, but not speak. It is true that Misty does not present any > >> situations where mindspeakers have a problem crossing cultural and/or > >> language barriers. cultures) in the process of transmission. In other words, if we speak > > > >different languages, you send in your language, but I pick up the signals > >in mine, and vice versa. This may not work in, say, computer > >communication, but I don't think we have enough knowledge to say that it > >can't in ESP. > > > The way I see it is that it is not words that are sent. Insead, it > is pure thought that is sent. Sort of like the sender is not really > thinking in words, but it seems to him/her that he/she is. Then > the receiver's mind understands the pure thought, but to the receiver, > it sounds like his/her own language. Let's do a thought experiment: If I recite poetry by Mindspeech, what will you hear? The meaning of the poem? But I might not understand it. The words of the poem? but how could they be translated? Translating poetry is _hard_ and you'll still lose some of the original meaning. Or both? If we say that the receiver gets the meaning of the poem, we have to accept that Mindspeech is very limited, since the receiver just gets my version of the poem, which might not be what the author intended at all. If we say the receiver gets just the words (the shape, as it were) of the poem, we are saying that Mindspeech is tied to language, and transmitting ideas or concepts doesn't work with that Gift. Or can somebody claim it's possible to simultaneously translate poetry into a language you don't even know? (and which might not have words for the concepts in the poem) If we say the receiver gets both the words (in the original language) and the idea (which isn't bound by language), we come to the conclusion which I think is the most logical and works best, especially considering the evidence we have: Mindspeech transmits words, which require the receiver to know the language, AND the idea of the message. Btw, if both are transmitted, the amount of language skill the receiver needs is lessened, since s/he gets the gist of the message (I think everyone knows how much easier it is to read a foreign language text about something you already know). Therefore we might say that in all the cases of different culture Mindspeakers there has been enough common language to dress the transmitted idea in words. Or of course, if you give me enough proof to the contrary, I'll even believe you... -Seanna ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Nov 1995 10:24:11 EET From: "Sanna Koulu" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Companions and mindspeech Message-ID: <11EB4AC5A0D-+AT+-otdk.helsinki.fi> Jenneke wrote: > On Tue, 14 Nov 1995, Heather Mina wrote: (snip) > Sayvil says flat out that Companions can talk to whomever they feel like > talking to and that the others don't because of an adherence to rules > that she feels are stupid and pointless. Can it be any more clear that > Companions, at least, don't require receptive mindspeech in their target > to get their meaning across? I don't think it's that clear. Umm - I might be wrong but isn't it Kero who says "they can talk whoever they want to and Sayvil won't pretend otherwise unlike the rest of them" ? Anyway, how do we know all the Companions have the same level of Gifts? I think it's pretty clear that strong Mindspeakers in general don't need the receiver to have the Gift. But _it makes the contact easier_. Yes? > > >IMO, in this case, Occam's Razor argues for Rolan *choosing* > > >not to > > >MindSpeak Talia, not being unable to, regardless of the reason for his > > >supposed inability. > > I think we've all pretty much agreed that any "inability" would not lie on > > Rolan's side but on Talia's. No we haven't. I still disagree. Strong Mindspeakers can bespeak whoever they want to, and if Rolan doesn't bespeak Talia, then he either cannot (too weakly Gifted) or will not (which I think is illogical and stupid). So there :) > If you are deaf, then I am unable to communicate audibly with you. This > does not mean that the cause of the inability lies with me, just that it > exists. If you are hard of hearing, then I am able to communicate > audibly with you, even if it takes great energy expense. If I do not, > then I am choosing not to, not being unable. If I am mute or have a damaged voice I can't communicate with you if you are hard of hearing, no matter how much I'd want to. I just can't talk loud enough. -Seanna ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Nov 1995 10:59:07 EET From: "Sanna Koulu" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: more mindspeech... Message-ID: <11F498C1A7B-+AT+-otdk.helsinki.fi> Jenneke wrote: > On Tue, 14 Nov 1995, Alison Schiff wrote: > > > On Tue, 14 Nov 1995, Jennifer Broekman wrote: > > > > > Why would a kyree scout, in an area not containing Tayledras, speak > > > Tayledras to two random humans *without* knowing if they could speak it? > > > > > Well if Tayledras (or shin'a'in or kaled'a'in) was the only human > > language you knew, what other language would you use to greet a couple of > > human strangers? > > > > Also, even if the kyree were not in a very populated (by humans) > > area, as long as they know that the humans exhist it would make sense for > > them to learn the language. They are certainly intelligent enough to see > > the advantages to this. ("don't shoot me I'm intelligent!", or "I've been > > hurt and separated far from my kin, please help me" etc...) > > I'm not convinced that Tayledras is the logical language for them to have > learned. I don't think that all of the humans to the north and west of > Valdemar speak Tayledras, for one, and were I kyree, I'd expect to have > the least trouble convincing Tayledras of my peaceful intent and > intelligence. About the logic of learning tayledras: Tayledras is related to kaled'a'in. A lot of kyree history includes the kaled'a'in people. If you are interested in the history of your people, you might want to learn the language of your ancient allies. Also: the Tayledras might very possibly be also current allies to (at least some groups of) kyree. I think that's a good reason to learn the language. I doubt that, logically thinking, the kyree would want to have much contact with "normal" humans nor live near them.( As I recall, mostly the neuters went out to the world.) I assume lots of kyree live in the Pelagirs along with the Tayledras. After all, that's where Warrl came from, no? However, that's not really relevant. It doesn't really matter for the original thread (does Mindspeech require a common language?) what the language was; I just think there has to be a common language, and I think Tayledras would be the most logical choice. -Seanna ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Nov 1995 11:10:36 EET From: "Sanna Koulu" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Current discussion (Bardic Gift) Message-ID: <11F7A5033C1-+AT+-otdk.helsinki.fi> Jenneke wrote: > On Tue, 14 Nov 1995, Mikkel Larsen wrote: > > mention of it, in Highjorune he poses as a minstrel *not* as a Bard and > > minstrels does not have the Bardic Gift. > > Yes, but he did this to avoid attracting attention. Later, when he wants > to attract attention, he poses as a Bard. Not all Bards have the Gift, either. They just need two out of three: talent, creativity and the Gift. I've been assuming that Minstrels (the ones trained at the Collegium) need one out of three. Do you think 'tis a correct assumption? it would mean there would be mistrels who couldn't play (well, poets and "preachers")? > My opinion? He had it, and he probably used it, at least subconsciously, > any time he had to play and influence people at the same time. However, > given his duties, he probably wasn't in that situation often. I disagree here... After all, you don't need to make music to use the Gift. (Medren in MPromise). I don't think he ever used it - I don't think he ever had it! (I know, I've said it before, but I've got evidence on my side. I'd like to hear the reasons for opposing points of view?) -Seanna ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Nov 1995 09:25:41 +0000 (GMT) From: jc-+AT+-crosfield.co.uk (Jerry Cullingford) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Hodgell Message-ID: <9511150925.AA21682-+AT+-crosfield.co.uk> Here's the list again :-) : _God Stalk_ _Dark of the Moon_ (both above published as trade paperback _Chronicles of the Kencyrath_ in the UK some years back) _Seekers Mask_ (USA limited edition HB by Hypatia press, who also do matching [unlimited and cheaper] editions of _GS_ and _DotM_, as well as a matching HB collection of the (5 or 6?) short stories; most of the short stories are also available as chapbooks, too). -Jerry (Who can probably dig out Hypatia's phone number if needed). -- _|_ / | Jerry Cullingford jc-+AT+-crosfield.co.uk (Work) \_|_ jc-+AT+-selune.demon.co.uk (Home) \__/ Hemel Hempstead, UK jerry-+AT+-shell.portal.com (alternate) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Nov 1995 11:45:14 EET From: "Sanna Koulu" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: mindspeech revisited... (technical complaints) Message-ID: <1200E2E609B-+AT+-otdk.helsinki.fi> (Flame-proof suit on...) 1) I'm very new to this mailing-list thing, but still, I think conversation would be a lot easier if people, when reading long postings which make a lot of different points, would answer each point (or subject) with a different posting. Yes, I know it makes for a huge pile of messages and might lead to repetition, but it would be an awful lot CLEARER. These long, tangled messages are hard to read, understand and reply to, and seem to lead to ">> > > Did not! >> > Did too! >> Did not! > Did too! " kind of thing, instead of reasoned conversation. Tell me what you think? 2) Why get so angry about whether Misty made mistakes or not? She obviously fumbled with some things, which I don't think is at all surprising with 16 books and a decade between the first and the latest. I don't think there's anyone on this list who doesn't like ML's books. Why does she need us to defend her? Can't we discuss also the bad points of the books, or is this some kind of dictatorship where only adoring opinions are allowed? 3) Please, when you're referring to the books, tell the book, the place, and if possible, give us the relevant quote! It's not enough to say "the books say so" when nobody knows what exactly is being referred to, or even which book. Besides, if you can, how about telling what the book says? If you just say, "the prologue of AotQ says so", it's still not very clear. I, for one, don't have my books here, and some of them I've lent to friends, so I can't check. (I think checking is necessary, because there's several ways of understanding the spot/dialogue/whatever). And giving the quote lends more weight to your argument, I think. This is not meant specifically against anyone, and I'd be interested to hear any comments or thoughts. Just post (or email) them so I can understand, too. :) -Seanna ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Nov 1995 09:41:58 +0000 (GMT) From: jc-+AT+-crosfield.co.uk (Jerry Cullingford) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Companions and mindspeech Message-ID: <9511150942.AA21864-+AT+-crosfield.co.uk> > Therefore we > might say that in all the cases of different culture Mindspeakers > there has been enough common language to dress the transmitted idea > in words. > Or of course, if you give me enough proof to the contrary, I'll even > believe you... > > > -Seanna OK - how does your theory explain Eldan's Gift of animal mindspeech? and that's *mindspeech* not *empathy*, and they *do* know the difference. Since I can't see how there can possibly be any common language between a herald and forest animals, that looks like strong evidence that language is not a relevant factor in mindspeech, and that (speculating somewhat) it's bypassing the meaning-to-sound and sound-to-meaning stages and transmitting meaning directly - which would typically provide identical results to normal speech between people using the same language. (word->meaning->meaning of same word). -- _|_ / | Jerry Cullingford jc-+AT+-crosfield.co.uk (Work) \_|_ jc-+AT+-selune.demon.co.uk (Home) \__/ Hemel Hempstead, UK jerry-+AT+-shell.portal.com (alternate) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Nov 1995 12:26:58 EET From: "Sanna Koulu" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: mindspeaking, Companions, and all that jazz Message-ID: <120C035411A-+AT+-otdk.helsinki.fi> Jenneke wrote: (snip) > > > Why does it seem that you'd prefer to believe that Misty is > > > stupidly inconsistent than that projective mindspeech doesn't require > > > receptive mindspeech on the other end? > > > > (Possibly because Misty _is_ inconsistent?) > > Being inconsistent in some respects doesn't mean that all explanations of > other respects are the same inconsistency. Huh? I don't think I understand that, sir. You mean that even if Misty is inconsistent in some things, it doesn't follow she's inconsistent in everything? That's very true, but Misty _is_ inconsistent on the Mindspeech issue. > > I think it's pretty much proved that projective Mindspeech doesn't > > need receptive Mindspeech. It's also fairly certain that receptive > > Mindspeech doesn't require the projective (that is, you can pick up > > someone's surface thoughts even if they have no Mindspeech). > > I agree, but I think it's also proved that Talia does have a hint of > receptive Mindspeech. Agreed, agreed. It seems to work best when tied up with emotion, anyway. > > I maintain that Rolan was too weak a Mindspeaker to bespeak Talia > > ordinarily - he would have needed her to trance. If Talia _or_ Rolan > > was better at Mindspeaking, Talia wouldn't have needed to. I > > wonder if Rolan had tranced, would he have been able to bespeak Talia > > without her doing it too? What do you think? > > I think that we have many, many examples of the Companions doing things > in roundabout, convoluted ways to prevent their Heralds from becoming too > dependent on them or figuring out what they really are and very few > examples that would even *hint* that a Groveborn Companion could possibly > have too weak a Gift to Mindspeak his Chosen. Well, Rolan Speaks stiltedly, implying he's not accustomed to it. It seems he doesn't Mindspeak much. I don't think there's any proof that all Companions are terrific at Mindspeech. I don't see any reason why one couldn't be weak, even though he's GB. Being a spirit doesn't mean you are perfect (take Gwena!). > We've repeatedly seen > that, unless there's truly grave danger, *most* Companions (ie., all > except Sayvil) adhere to rules about whom they can and cannot bespeak. > Talia's Mindspeech was sufficiently weak and receptive that she wouldn't > ever be able to project her thoughts to Rolan. Just btw, I don't think they are "rules", as such. More like tradition. Anyway, if Rolan had Thoughtsensing, he could pick up the thoughts off her surface mind, the way Need does. > All mindspeech > communication would be one-sided in nature, WHICH IS ABSOLUTELY CONTRARY > TO NORMAL COMPANION PRACTICE. Because it couldn't be equal, there had to > be none, except in the event of a dire emergency. I don't think Need's way of communicating was that unequal. It was just that Nyara was dependent on her. Besides, I don't think keeping all those secrets even from your Chosen is all that equal either. > Even if Rolan had the > strongest MindSpeech Gift alive on the planet, I don't think he would > have spoken to her, except maybe when she was in Ancar's dungeon, and > perhaps not even then, if he thought that his energy was better reserved > for getting her Fetched back to the cmap (ie., he foresaw a greater need > for her than that she'd already fulfilled) or if Ancar's shields were as > strong as is implied. It would have been beneficial to Speak her and tell her not to take argonel. > IMO, in this case, Occam's Razor argues for Rolan *choosing* not to > MindSpeak Talia, not being unable to, regardless of the reason for his > supposed inability. Explain how? Why is it simpler to assume Rolan chooses not to Speak Talia? That creates a whole new can of worms (like, why does he then talk stiltedly, why do they all choose not to bespeak their unGifted Chosen, what's the harm in it, what of all the possibly fatal situations in which he doesn't Mindspeak her etc.) -Seanna ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Nov 1995 10:46:05 GMT From: mel (Melanie Dymond Harper) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: mindspeech revisited... (technical complaints) Message-ID: <9511151046.AA20681-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk> Sanna said: > 1) I'm very new to this mailing-list thing, but still, I think > conversation would be a lot easier if people, when reading long > postings which make a lot of different points, would answer each point > (or subject) with a different posting. Yes, I know it makes for a > huge pile of messages and might lead to repetition, but it would be > an awful lot CLEARER. These long, tangled messages are hard to read, > understand and reply to, and seem to lead to > ">> > > Did not! > >> > Did too! > >> Did not! > > Did too! " kind of thing, instead of reasoned conversation. > Tell me what you think? Nonononono. Please. Each posting gets sent out as a separate message to whatever the last count of people on the list was -- close to 300, if I remember correctly. Please try and combine things wherever it's not going to confuse matters totally; lots of short messages are a much bigger load on the list processor than a couple of long messages. If you're being fairly verbose about two or three different subjects, then there's no reason why you shouldn't send that as two or three separate messages; however, one longish post with a few attached one-line responses to other parts of the original message should stay as one post to the list, rather than splitting off the one-liners. (One-liner posts in general are a Bad Thing.) Thy listmistress hath spoken. :) Mel. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Nov 1995 12:47:44 EET From: "Sanna Koulu" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: the latest poll Message-ID: <121196107CA-+AT+-otdk.helsinki.fi> Kerry wrote: > > > It does make sense, unfortunately. But I don't think the branding > > is > > based on who you slept with when you were 15 (after all, Master & > > Johnson say a large percentage of males have had homosexual > > experiences) but more on what you look/act/talk like - and who you > > are seen with if you are a public person like a movie star. > > Mmm.. I'm not sure 'average' people classify others based on Master & > Johnson though (or indeed believe M & J necessarily). I do agree though > that appearance etc has a lot to do with it. I'm not sure if the 'average' people have even heard of them... :) I meant, considering that 30 per cent of males (?) have had homosexual experiences, they should know that it doesn't make them gay. And, it's not that easy to tell who's slept with who. I think gay-bashing is mostly based on stereotypical looks , like having long hair and earrings. Thoughts? > > Hmm. Do you think lust is necessary to have sex (or actually to > > make love, since I think that's what the kestra'chern do)? > > Oh definitely. Romantic desire is more strongly defining.. > I think I muddied things by using 'lust' there. To clarify: At least in > the context of a kestra'chern, I do think from a purely practical point > of view, (depending on what sex you're talking about) physical > desire is probably necessary. (Trying not to get too graphic here). Yes, by all means, let's try not to corrupt the hypothetical innocent persons on this list. (Were there any? ) I think kestra'chern sex might be very sensuously oriented - stroking, kissing, massages etc, which I don't think require physical desire - though skill and affection help. > And even if it's not necessary, I get the impression the kestra'chern > sometimes use sex as a reassurance to their patient that they are desirable, > and from that point of view, physical desire bolters that reassurance. Yeah, that seems reasonable. Though the kestra'chern would have to be skillful, because s/he might accidentally reinforce the patient's impression "I'm only good as a bedmate". > > > I think there's still be 'bisexual' situations (heh, not people) > > > given the Tayle'dras propensity for 'mating circles'. :) > > > > Do I sense certain, lessay, predatory tendencies here? Mating > > circles, indeed... > > Me? Poor innocent me? (Hmm, think Kerry, salvage the situation.) > Ah.. I was thinking of the situation in Winds where Elspeth nearly > walks into the bathing pool with the stone indicating 'others welcome'. > There.. how's that? Oh. I'd forgotten about that. Though I wouldn't call those "bisexual situations". How about " " instead? Sorry, my subconscious is getting the better of me again... . But think about it... all those Tayledras! -Seanna (who really should rein in her imagination...) ------------------------------ End of MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 230 *********************************