MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 234 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) More back up quotes by Staci Schoenfeld 2) Chemistry People (way off topic) by duvall.23-+AT+-postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu (Stacy Hunt DuVall) 3) You guys are crazy!!!!!!!!! by Adrienne York 4) Re: Mindspeech threads - Aaarrrggghhh! by "James T. Yardley" <73201.745-+AT+-compuserve.com> 5) Re: Companions and mindspeech by mealink-+AT+-syd.au.swissbank.com (Kerry Mealing) 6) Re: Bio by EDooley489-+AT+-aol.com 7) Re: rules of mindspeech and how we know them by mealink-+AT+-syd.au.swissbank.com (Kerry Mealing) 8) Re: More back up quotes by mealink-+AT+-syd.au.swissbank.com (Kerry Mealing) 9) Re: Van's Bardic Gift by Adrienne York 10) Re: More back up quotes by Staci Schoenfeld 11) Re: Healing Gift, was Van's Bardic Gift by mealink-+AT+-syd.au.swissbank.com (Kerry Mealing) 12) Re: Bio by "Kristin A. Ruhle" 13) Re: Van's Bardic Gift by Adrienne York 14) Re: Mindspeech threads - Aaarrrggghhh! by "Schroedinger's Cat" 15) Re: You guys are crazy!!!!!!!!! by mikkell-+AT+-cybernet.dk (Mikkel Larsen) 16) Re: Van's Bardic Gift by mikkell-+AT+-cybernet.dk (Mikkel Larsen) 17) Re: bardic gift by "Sanna Koulu" 18) Re: Companions and mindspeech by "Sanna Koulu" 19) Re: Companions and mindspeech by "Sanna Koulu" 20) Re: mindspeech revisited... (technical complaints) by "Sanna Koulu" 21) Re: mindspeaking, Companions, and all that jazz by "Sanna Koulu" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 15 Nov 1995 17:31:17 -0800 From: Staci Schoenfeld To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: More back up quotes Message-ID: <199511160131.RAA10192-+AT+-stealth.romoidoy.com> on the probability that Companions are reborn Heralds (or that Heralds are reborn as Companions) I've been rereading the Velgarth series since I got on this list and here is a quote I just ran across in Winds of Change: pg. 24 in my copy: ":Probably because they didn't know,: Gwena said, most of the sarcasm gone from her mind-voice. :Vanyel and Sayv -- Savil had too much on their minds to give descriptions of where they'd been....:" What do y'all think? Staci ------------------------------------------------------------ Staci Schoenfeld http://www.zoom.com/personal/staci/staci1.htm ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Nov 1995 21:29:51 -0500 From: duvall.23-+AT+-postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu (Stacy Hunt DuVall) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Chemistry People (way off topic) Message-ID: <199511160229.VAA14363-+AT+-postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu> Heya!! I was just wondering how many "chemistry people" are on the list. I've noticed a few. Just trying to feed my curiosity! Stacy Hunt DuVall duvall.23-+AT+-osu.edu "What's my loftiest ambition? I've always wanted to throw an egg at an electric fan." ---? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Nov 1995 21:31:12 -0500 (EST) From: Adrienne York To: Mercedes Lackey Mailing List Subject: You guys are crazy!!!!!!!!! Message-ID: This debate on Mindspeech is getting to the point of driving me crazy. You're arguing as to whether or not this literary device goes on in the thinking brain or is an emotional construction! This is a fictional thing! That means it's *not real*! Let's get a little perspective people. And may I say my personal theory as to why we don't see a lot of translation problems in these books? First, Misty is writing the books in English, because nobody knows any of the languages (Shin'a'in, Tayledras, Rethwellan, etc.) involved. And two, it takes too many words to avoid having the Mindspeech work like speaking. You'd have to describe visually, emotionally, etc. in excruciating detail :The army is on the hill and we're going to run out on its left side. I want y'all to attack on the right five minutes later.: It's easier to just let people say it. If that didn't make any sense, it's because I am exhausted after reading all of these messages. Oh, and on the subject of who should be Alberich, may I suggest Sean Connery. I love Sean Connery, and I think he can have a rougher edge to him than Patrick Stewart. Patrick Stewart just doesn't sound very martial. ;];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];] ;] Adrienne York-Minor ;] ;] "I'd like to believe that, but I'm fresh out of optimism." ;] ;] -Princess Jasmine ;] ;] ayork-+AT+-simons-rock.edu ;] ;];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];] ------------------------------ Date: 15 Nov 95 21:29:51 EST From: "James T. Yardley" <73201.745-+AT+-compuserve.com> To: Mercedes Lackey Mailing Subject: Re: Mindspeech threads - Aaarrrggghhh! Message-ID: <951116022951_73201.745_JHE108-1-+AT+-CompuServe.COM> >>AAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHH! >>Re: the ongoing, epic-like debate over mindspeech... you are not alone! personally, i am currently deleting every thread i see that is called something like "mindspeech and how it works" or "more mindspeech" or "animal mindspeech" or even "Van's bardic gift". it is driving me crazy - people seem to be saying the same things over and over and proving each other wrong, sometimes incorrectly. sometimes Misty *may* just be slightly inconsistent. i know no one wants to believe it, but it *can* happen. ah well. such are the trials of mailing list subscribers. "'oh la, good sir, i do believe i shall fai-' The pillow catches Meg squarely in the face." oh ye gods. methinks i have been reading MPrice far too much. - Meg ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Nov 95 13:33:47 EST From: mealink-+AT+-syd.au.swissbank.com (Kerry Mealing) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Cc: kerry_mealing-+AT+-il.us.swissbank.com Subject: Re: Companions and mindspeech Message-ID: <9511160233.AA24222-+AT+-syd.au.swissbank.com> A summary perhaps of where I think the consensus got to re the base questions underlying the discussion. And a few suppositions that I don't think are necessarily under consensus. Is anyone keeping a faq of the arguments pro & con and the consenses on these sorts of questions? (I know there's the official faq but it doesn't really go this indepth). Do we want such a faq? I wouldn't mind doing one if there's enough interest. On a related note, did anyone do anything with the Tayle'dras / Shin'a'nain discussion (about shay'kreth'ashke and kestra'chern etc)? 1. Mindspeaking is easier to someone who has receptive mindspeech. - Ref: Van talking to Jaysen, J uses his receptive mindspeech to make the link stronger. - Ref: Weak mind-speakers cannot talk to non-gifted. - XRef: Van mentions while avoiding Melenna in MPromise that it's easier to mind-sense (thought-sense) a mindspeech gifted person than a non-mindspeech-gifted one. 2. Strong mindspeakers can talk to those without receptive mindspeech. - Ref: Yfandes says to Stef about the Kyree, paraphrased, "It must be a very strong mindspeaker to talk to you." - Comment: Stef has shown *no* tendancy to mindspeech whatsoever. Neither Van, Savil, Moondance or Star.. (name?) identified any trace of mindspeech in Stef, despite identifying that he'd lifebonded. - Ref: Warrl can mindspeak Kethry & Tarma. - Comment: Kethry says she has no mind-speech gift. Her mage-school while not training such gifts particulary, at least can recognize & identify them. Kethry also says as a mage she takes regular self-inventory checks. Personal Suppositions (ie things I hesitate to say are agreed upon): 3. Mindspeech avoids language barriers: - Comment: I can't find any references anywhere to a Mindspeaker being baffled in mental communication anywhere. - Need and her bearers throughout the ages (some of whom must have spoken different languages. - The companion who chose Alberich (Alberich originally spoke Karsite remember). - Various companions speaking with Tayle'dras. (Speculation: Skif has trouble learning Tayle'dras because he's not a powerful mindspeaker. Elspeth picks it up very easily - she attributes it to knowing Shin'a'nain but even she says it's as if she knows the words before she learns them.. possibly because she's a strong mind-speaker. - Cymry (Skif's companion) speaking with the [intelligent] Dylehi (sp?). What common language? Tayle'dras? When did Cymry pick it up (specifically.. I know she was at the vale). - The various Kyree speaking to different people where it's unlikely that their language is spoken. Eg: The Kyree (Hrrr something or other) who goes back to Haven with Elspeth & co. It's quite unlikely that he speaks Valdemaran (they were speaking Tayle'dras in the Tayle'dras vale) but he quite happily talks to people, some of whom would only speak Valdemaran. (No books at hand for a ref as to whom). 4. Companions are linked together: - Comment: The companions seem to have almost a group-mind - they're always linked unless they deliberately block. - Ref: Van pointing out the network linking the companions together. - Ref: Yfandes, re Kilchas' companion (Kilchas is the old astrologer mage in Magic's price). Paraphrased: "He dropped out of our minds when you felt Kilchas die." - Speculation: This group-mind / always linked bit makes it easier for companions to communicate. - No particular reference. - Pro: Allows companions with weak or nonexistant mind-speech to still communicate (important if the original herald/whoever being reincarnated was not a mind-speaker). 5. Companions gifts vary: - Comment: They're not stamped out of a mold. - Ref: Yfandes, re Ghost/Leshyae (Tashir's companion) "He's something of a Mind-Healer". The implication is that other companions are not necessarily. - Comment: It makes sense anyway if the bulk of them are reincarnated [heralds]. As humans they had different gifts, why should that change as companions? 5. Rolan is / is not a particularly strong mind-speaker: - Comment: Why should he be? Being grove-born doesn't confer omnipotence or omniscience (sp?). Besides, he appeared in the grove long before Talia arrived on the scene and he didn't need strong mind-speech for the previous Monarch's Own. - Comment re Rolan not mind-speaking Talia: A) If he wasn't a strong mind-speaker he couldn't as Talia evinces very little or no receptive mindspeech. B) If he was, _there was never any overwhelming information Talia had to know_.. When Talia asks if she should trance down to get a clearer idea of why Rolan was uneasy, he indicates no. Why? Because he didn't know himself. So even if he could bend the rules and mindspeak her, he had nothing to say worth bending the rules for. (Personally I think this argument is weak, because Heralds already know that a strong mind-speaker can speak to non/weakly gifted people and they know Companions are special. I don't think it would be too much of a shock if a companion mindspoke his chosen even though that chosen had little/no mindspeech). - Comment re Rolan speaking Gwena over long distances: It's inconclusive - there are too many unknown factors. - Gwena could be a very strong mind-speaker & was tranced - all she'd need was someone who was at least a weak mind-speaker. - It could be the companion links that make mind-speech easier. - It could be easier because both Gwena & Rolan are grove-born, there might be some special factor / means of communication (via the spirit world?) - Gwena might be using Rolan to report, not because he's powerful in mind-speech but because he's MOC, or discrete, or both. - He could be more gifted in receptive mindspeech than projective. - Verdict: Inconclusive. IMO (not strongly held) he's not a strong mind-speaker. But that's just because I don't feel he'd be such a stickler for the rules. (Yes, I know about the Talia is mind-deaf argument, but see point 2 above). Well, no doubt I could ramble on for longer, but my lunch hour is drawing to a close. :) Let me know what people think.. Kerry. Sanna wrote: > Jenneke wrote: > > > On Tue, 14 Nov 1995, Heather Mina wrote: > (snip) > > > Sayvil says flat out that Companions can talk to whomever they feel like > > talking to and that the others don't because of an adherence to rules > > that she feels are stupid and pointless. Can it be any more clear that > > Companions, at least, don't require receptive mindspeech in their target > > to get their meaning across? > > I don't think it's that clear. Umm - I might be wrong but isn't it > Kero who says "they can talk whoever they want to and Sayvil won't > pretend otherwise unlike the rest of them" ? Anyway, how do we know > all the Companions have the same level of Gifts? > I think it's pretty clear that strong Mindspeakers in general don't > need the receiver to have the Gift. But _it makes the contact easier_. > Yes? > > > > >IMO, in this case, Occam's Razor argues for Rolan *choosing* > > > >not to > > > >MindSpeak Talia, not being unable to, regardless of the reason for his > > > >supposed inability. > > > I think we've all pretty much agreed that any "inability" would not lie on > > > Rolan's side but on Talia's. > > No we haven't. I still disagree. Strong Mindspeakers can bespeak > whoever they want to, and if Rolan doesn't bespeak Talia, then he > either cannot (too weakly Gifted) or will not (which I think is > illogical and stupid). So there :) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Nov 1995 21:54:44 -0500 From: EDooley489-+AT+-aol.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Bio Message-ID: <951115215233_107625158-+AT+-mail06.mail.aol.com> Hey this post is several days old but it was asking if anyone else lived in Northern CA and I wanted to add myself into the list. I have only been here six months but love San Fran already. Thanks Eric ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Nov 95 13:54:42 EST From: mealink-+AT+-syd.au.swissbank.com (Kerry Mealing) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: rules of mindspeech and how we know them Message-ID: <9511160254.AA24299-+AT+-syd.au.swissbank.com> Jenneke wrote: > I couldn't remember if the Fetcher and the mage were the same > person or not, but this only modifies the point slightly. Noyoki did use > the power generated by his blood-magic to add power to his Fetching, so > that he wasn't wiped out by Fetching Hadanelith across town, so we would > seem to have evidence that the power generated by blood-magic can be used > to bolster mindgifts in the same manner that nodemagic can (cf Vanyel > contacting Haven from the forest near Forst Reach in _MPower_). Yeup.. I see no evidence against and lots of evidence for, mind-gifts being bolstered by exactly the same circumstances that can bolster mage-gift. So (as Jenneke said), things that can boost mind-gifts: 1. Node-power - Van contacting Haven from Forest Reach in MPower; Van Fetching the raven-construct in MPrice. 2. Blood-magic - WG, Noyoki & fetching. 3. Final-Strike - using the energy released by your death (hmm, sounds funny using your life energy). No direct reference re mind-gifts, but I strongly suspect Lavaan Firestorm didn't go mad with reaction headache, but did a Final Strike to fuel his Fire-starting gift. 4. Inherent mage power - Van using his inherent personal power to fuel his slight healing gift to keep himself alive after being abused (MPrice). 5. The Chosen's Companion - Yfandes lending her energy to Van. Rolan lending his to Talia. 6. Other Companions - Companions boosting Dirk to fetch Talia. 7. Strong emotion - Fear/Anger etc boost Talia's projective empathy. Similarly Tashir's fetching. Kerry.. who seems to be in full summary mode today. :) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Nov 95 14:45:22 EST From: mealink-+AT+-syd.au.swissbank.com (Kerry Mealing) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: More back up quotes Message-ID: <9511160345.AA24515-+AT+-syd.au.swissbank.com> Staci wrote: > on the probability that Companions are reborn Heralds (or that Heralds are > reborn as Companions) > I've been rereading the Velgarth series since I got on this list and here is > a quote I just ran across in Winds of Change: > > pg. 24 in my copy: > ":Probably because they didn't know,: Gwena said, most of the sarcasm gone > from her mind-voice. :Vanyel and Sayv -- Savil had too much on their minds > to give descriptions of where they'd been....:" > > What do y'all think? I think it's pretty much accepted that at least some companions are reincarnated Heralds.. though I read a post recently saying that it's not textually proven, only implied. It's proven to my satisfaction. :) Interesting though, the way Gwena refers to Vanyel so easily.. I kinda get the impression that Van has been in [at least occasional] contact with the companions down through the ages since his death. I'm foggy on this though, since I haven't read Winds recently enough. Q: Is Gwena surprised/astounded etc to see Van? I can't remember. I have a vague recollection of her being very quiet (I got the impression of her thinking "Oh dear that's torn it." and waiting for him to spill the beans.. Cheers, Kerry. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Nov 1995 22:49:33 -0500 (EST) From: Adrienne York To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Van's Bardic Gift Message-ID: On Mon, 13 Nov 1995, Sanna Koulu wrote: > Wyvern wrote: > > > Heyla, all... > > why do you say Van never used his Gift? He loved music. Just 'cuz he > > wasn't trained doesn't mean he couldn't *use* it... > > I think Vanyel doesn't have the Bardic Gift, and Misty screwed up > with the reference in MPawn. The books _never_ again (I could be > > And the Bardic Gift _would_ have been useful, even if not crucial; > didn't Vanyel worry about the Herald-Mages vs. "plain Heralds" > question (MPromise) - which was finally solved by Stefen (using, among > other things, the Gift). There are also numerous council meetings in > which it might be useful - and Herald ethics don't forbid all > manipulation. (Vanyel's lecture to Medren on the ethics of Gift use). > I think if Van had it he'd use it. Ehrm, where did we see a time when it would have been both useful and possible for Van to use his Bardic gift. The only times we see Van perform music after being Chosen are for his family or in Lineas-Baires when he's acting as a minstrel. IIRC, he never actually sings when he goes in as a Bard. As for using the Bardic Gift in Council meetings, I don't think he would use it during Council meetings. When he and Medren have that discussion on the ethics of using the Gift, doesn't he say, "you must never use the Gift except during a performance or under direct command of the Crown, Council, or Bardic Circle" or words to that effect. Bardic Gift is direct manipulation of people's ability to think, and as such, I seriously doubt that it would be ethically correct to use it just to ram your proposals through Council. That would circumvent the purpose of the Council. > > Also I just thought of the scene in MPromise when Vanyel is > talking with Jervis about Medren - doesn't he say straight out that > he "never had the gift"? He was good enough at performance to > qualify, and creativity seems less important (it's not referred to as > often as the two others), so I think he's talking of the Bardic > Gift. This is an instance where a direct quote would help, but I don't have the book. Did he say, "never had" or "didn't have". Didn't have would indicate that when he left Forst Keep he didn't have the Gift so they wouldn't have taken them then. IIRC, he said didn't have. > Besides, about training: Vanyel obviously was trained in using all his > other Gifts, even Healing which was a much lesser Gift for him than > the Bardic. So why wouldn't they teach him to use that too? > (It's been stated that Healing requires knowledge, and in MPrice Van > uses it to Heal himself, powering it with his Mage Gift. I think. > Therefore he has to have had training.) Would someone give me a direct quote where Vanyel uses his Bardic Gift in an uncontrolled manner? Where it says, "and Van screwed up his performance because he accidentally invoked the Bardic Gift." And may I ask why everyone seems so convinced that just because we don't see him use the Bardic again that it must have disappeared? When do we see Van use his Fire-Starting afterwards? Why hasn't anyone questioned that. I think it's a more interesting question as to how the Healing gift appeared in his later life, when Savil says/thinks, IIRC, "and she was amazed by what she saw. Savil...[cut a lot of talk about testing people for Gifts]. Van had not one, not two, but all of his channels, with the sole exception of Healing, open..." Where does that Healing Gift come from I'd like to know? ;];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];] ;] Adrienne York-Minor ;] ;] "I'd like to believe that, but I'm fresh out of optimism." ;] ;] -Princess Jasmine ;] ;] ayork-+AT+-simons-rock.edu ;] ;];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];] ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Nov 1995 20:35:51 -0800 From: Staci Schoenfeld To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: More back up quotes Message-ID: <199511160435.UAA22851-+AT+-stealth.romoidoy.com> At 04:31 AM 11/16/95 GMT, Kerry Mealing wrote: > >Staci wrote: >> on the probability that Companions are reborn Heralds (or that Heralds are >> reborn as Companions) >> I've been rereading the Velgarth series since I got on this list and here is >> a quote I just ran across in Winds of Change: >> >> pg. 24 in my copy: >> ":Probably because they didn't know,: Gwena said, most of the sarcasm gone >> from her mind-voice. :Vanyel and Sayv -- Savil had too much on their minds >> to give descriptions of where they'd been....:" >> >> What do y'all think? > >I think it's pretty much accepted that at least some companions are >reincarnated Heralds.. though I read a post recently saying that it's not >textually proven, only implied. It's proven to my satisfaction. :) > >Interesting though, the way Gwena refers to Vanyel so easily.. I kinda get >the impression that Van has been in [at least occasional] contact with the >companions down through the ages since his death. >I'm foggy on this though, since I haven't read Winds recently enough. >Q: Is Gwena surprised/astounded etc to see Van? I can't remember. I have >a vague recollection of her being very quiet (I got the impression of her >thinking "Oh dear that's torn it." and waiting for him to spill the beans.. > >Cheers, >Kerry. > > I barely even remember that happening -- is my Companion messing with my mind again? Anyway, when I get to that point again, I will tell you. Zhai'helleva, Staci ------------------------------------------------------------ Staci Schoenfeld http://www.zoom.com/personal/staci/staci1.htm ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Nov 95 16:07:01 EST From: mealink-+AT+-syd.au.swissbank.com (Kerry Mealing) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Healing Gift, was Van's Bardic Gift Message-ID: <9511160507.AA25344-+AT+-syd.au.swissbank.com> > And may I ask why everyone seems so convinced that just because we don't > see him use the Bardic again that it must have disappeared? When do we > see Van use his Fire-Starting afterwards? Why hasn't anyone questioned > that. I agree re the Bardic. Van may or may not have used the Fire-Starting - it's difficult to tell in the wording sometimes whether he uses it or the Mage-gift. If it's mage-gift he uses, it could just be that it's easier for him that way. > I think it's a more interesting question as to how the Healing gift appeared > in his later life, when Savil says/thinks, IIRC, "and she was amazed by what > she saw. Savil...[cut a lot of talk about testing people for Gifts]. Van > had not one, not two, but all of his channels, with the sole exception of > Healing, open..." Where does that Healing Gift come from I'd like to know? The actual quote is more like "all of his channels with the exception of healing had been blasted open to their fullest extent." As in, healing has not been blasted *fully* open, just opened a little bit. I'm paraphrasing and doing it badly, but that's definitely the way it reads.. :) Another one for the faq I think. :) Cheers, Kerry. > ;];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];] > ;] Adrienne York-Minor ;] > ;] "I'd like to believe that, but I'm fresh out of optimism." ;] > ;] -Princess Jasmine ;] > ;] ayork-+AT+-simons-rock.edu ;] > ;];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];] > > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Nov 1995 21:20:18 -0800 (PST) From: "Kristin A. Ruhle" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Bio Message-ID: <199511160520.AA22796-+AT+-foxtrot.rahul.net> > > Hey this post is several days old but it was asking if anyone else lived in > Northern CA and I wanted to add myself into the list. I have only been here > six months but love San Fran already. Thanks > Eric > I live at home in the South Bay (Los Gatos)...trying to move out, apts are hard to find for a reasonable rent! I am however FAR too old to be living at home! I once rode the 38/Geary bus in S.F. and it went past the area where the characters lived in _Summoned to Tourney._ Some nice old houses that looked like they had seen better days. Kristin ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Nov 1995 00:25:00 -0500 (EST) From: Adrienne York To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Van's Bardic Gift Message-ID: On Wed, 15 Nov 1995, Sanna Koulu wrote: > Wyvern wrote: > > Tah Daaah! I found it! the evidence I was looking for! Here: > > MPromise (1st ed pb) page 94: Vanyel says "Medren! You are better > than I was, even at fifteen. In a few years you are going to be > better than I could ever hope to be if I practiced every hour of my > life. You have the Bardic-Gift, lad, and that's something no amount > of training will give." > > I think that's pretty conclusive! Vanyel can't be better than Medren, > even if he practiced all his life, since _he doesn't have the Gift_. > I think that just means that Van isn't naturally as great a musician as Medren. Will Medren ever be as great as Stef, even if Medren practices all *his* life. > Also check page 96... "and _he_ has the Gift", implying Vanyel > doesn't. > That, "and _he_ has the gift has no meaning for me, because you don't give any context and I don't currently have access to the LHM. If that's what I'm thinking of, when Van is saying something about Medren's being sent to Haven, wouldn't that just mean that it wouldn't have done any good to send Van to Bardic because Van didn't have the Bardic Gift until *after* he was chosen. > And no, I just don't swallow the suppression theory. Van wasn't > _that_ hurt after Lendel cured him from the Bardic obsession. Even > MPawn said, talking of Van's Gifts (page 215) "...as if the gods were > offering a pittance as compensation." implying, I think, that for the > boy whose lifebonded just suicided, the Bardic Gift just ain't that > important. Vanyel is strong enough to handle it! > I don't think there's any need for the suppression theory. There's no big suppression theory going around about Van's Firestarting. Why? Because whenever we saw him, he could either use a coal to light his fires or using a Gift would just have put him in danger or dangerously exhausted him. Same goes for Bardic. ;];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];] ;] Adrienne York-Minor ;] ;] "I'd like to believe that, but I'm fresh out of optimism." ;] ;] -Princess Jasmine ;] ;] ayork-+AT+-simons-rock.edu ;] ;];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];] ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Nov 1995 01:24:06 -0500 (EST) From: "Schroedinger's Cat" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Mindspeech threads - Aaarrrggghhh! Message-ID: On Thu, 16 Nov 1995, James T. Yardley wrote: > > you are not alone! personally, i am currently deleting every thread i see that > is called something like "mindspeech and how it works" or "more mindspeech" or > "animal mindspeech" or even "Van's bardic gift". it is driving me crazy - > I am in whole-hearted agreement with this post. I am really starting to wonder about some of the people on this group. If they want to have a war and yell at each other about this subject, it might be nice for the rest of us, who are heartily tired of it, to continue the debate in private. It really has devolved into a contest of personalities and no real progress on the subject is being made (or,IMO, attempted). Kenneth Allen Hyde | No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife Univ. of Delaware | between the shoulder blades will seriously Dept. of Linguistics | cramp his style -- Old Jhereg proverb kenny-+AT+-strauss.udel.edu | A mind is a terrible toy to waste! -- Me ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Nov 1995 08:35:39 +0100 From: mikkell-+AT+-cybernet.dk (Mikkel Larsen) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: You guys are crazy!!!!!!!!! Message-ID: <9511160737.AA10646-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk> Adrienne York wrote >This debate on Mindspeech is getting to the point of driving me crazy. >You're arguing as to whether or not this literary device goes on in the >thinking brain or is an emotional construction! This is a fictional >thing! That means it's *not real*! Let's get a little perspective people. Right!! But consistence is still important in a literary device. >Oh, and on the subject of who should be Alberich, may I suggest Sean >Connery. I love Sean Connery, and I think he can have a rougher edge to >him than Patrick Stewart. Patrick Stewart just doesn't sound very martial. Seconded, Sean Connery looks almost exactly as I picture Alberic. Mikkel Larsen (mikkell-+AT+-cybernet.dk) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Nov 1995 08:35:41 +0100 From: mikkell-+AT+-cybernet.dk (Mikkel Larsen) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Van's Bardic Gift Message-ID: <9511160737.AA10647-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk> Adrienne York wrote >This is an instance where a direct quote would help, but I don't have the >book. Did he say, "never had" or "didn't have". Didn't have would >indicate that when he left Forst Keep he didn't have the Gift so they >wouldn't have taken them then. IIRC, he said didn't have. He said didn't have !! >I think it's a more interesting question as to how the Healing gift appeared >in his later life, when Savil says/thinks, IIRC, "and she was amazed by what >she saw. Savil...[cut a lot of talk about testing people for Gifts]. Van >had not one, not two, but all of his channels, with the sole exception of >Healing, open..." Where does that Healing Gift come from I'd like to know? Right again.I think the Bardic Gift was swapped for Healing (In Misty's head not in the 'reality*) Mikkel Larsen (mikkell-+AT+-cybernet.dk) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Nov 1995 11:34:29 EET From: "Sanna Koulu" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: bardic gift Message-ID: <137E14456E6-+AT+-otdk.helsinki.fi> > Seanna writes: > >"Talent" in that meaning means ability to sing and play; it's > >"mechanical" and can be practiced. Talia has also that; she is said > >to have a "true" voice, and can play the pipes... actually I think > >she has more than "just a trace" of that kind of talent. I think > >"Talent" here is used in a different meaning, since AotQ was written > >first. So I still think "Talent" here means "Gift", especially since > >the root meanings (and the capitalization, which Misty uses to > >connote magic!) of the words are the same. > > Remember that the three prerequisites for entrance to the Bardic Collegium > are Talent, Creativity, and Gift. You have to have two to get in, unless > you are the heir to a noble house (as Van was), in which case you must have > all three. Therefore, Talia has Talent, but no Gift. Actually, I've got proof (of a kind)! I was reading MPawn (or it might have been MPromise), and it mentions that there are three _Talents_ of which you need two to get in. These are the _Skill_ (which you have been calling Talent), the Creativity (we agree on this, no?) and the Gift (for which I think Talent is another name). Note that Talia has more than _just_a_trace of the Skill! She is much better at singing and playing than _that_. I'm sure that Talia has "a trace" of the _Gift_, but I can't remember any specific mentions - possibly in AotQ, when Ylsa's talking of Gift traces, or somewhere when Talia's singing. Talent has been used in more meanings than just to mean the Skill; I think it's unlikely that Jadus, who was a Bard (well, 3 years worth), would mis-estimate her Skill and Gift. Does anyone have proof either way? -Seanna ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Nov 1995 11:46:10 EET From: "Sanna Koulu" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Companions and mindspeech Message-ID: <13812F5660E-+AT+-otdk.helsinki.fi> Anne wrote: > On Wed, 15 Nov 1995, Sanna Koulu wrote: > > > Jerry wrote: > > > One related instance is in SW when Karal is talking to the painter; > > he remarks in Mindspeech to Altra that "sebeline is not a valdemaran > > word". How could he make a statement about the word "sebeline" in > > Mindspeech, if Mindspeech didn't transmit the word itself but only > > the meaning (blue-white pigment)? > > Sebeline is the name of a specific pigment, and do you translate your own > name? If it is something like Firesong, your thoughts my convey and image > of (pardon me) a singing fire, but if your name is something mundane like, > oh, Anne (;), you wouldn't translate that into Lady, would you? Because > the name Anne is really a particular sound that, when spoken about me, > means "Anne, the woman at Wellesley with the really long hair who does > theater a lot and..." and so on from there. It doesn't mean anything but > me, but you cannot translate me into a single word. Hahaa! I wasn't saying it would be translated, that was someone else's theory. I was saying that what would be transmitted (note: not "translated") would be the phoneme-complex "Anne" and/or the mental image the sender had of you. Thus "Firesong" would be received as the Tayledras sound-combination that translated into English means fire+song AND as the image of Firesong. Thus it would always be clear which Firesong was being talked of. You need better proof to convince me I'm wrong about this! (Sorry, I'm feeling childishly proud of my theory, and I love debating practically anything (yes I'm perfectly willing to take this to sociological, psychological, economical etc. etc. spheres, but I guess that'd be off-topic). I don't mean you any ill.) -Seanna > > ____________________________________________________________________________ > | Anne Cross | "How many witches does it take | > | juniper-+AT+-fledge.watson.org | to change a lightbulb?" | > | http://www.watson.org/~juniper/ | "What do you want to change it into?" | > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Nov 1995 12:08:24 EET From: "Sanna Koulu" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Companions and mindspeech Message-ID: <13871C65E62-+AT+-otdk.helsinki.fi> Jenneke wrote: > On Wed, 15 Nov 1995, Sanna Koulu wrote: > > Let's do a thought experiment: If I recite poetry by Mindspeech, what > > will you hear? The meaning of the poem? But I might not understand > > it. The words of the poem? but how could they be translated? > > Translating poetry is _hard_ and you'll still lose some of the > > original meaning. Or both? > > Do we know that poetry doesn't get horribly garbled by transmission via > MindSpeech? I'd be inclined to think that it does, because much of > poetry is music, which is bound up in sound as well as words. Hmm? I don't understand what you mean by saying "much of poetry is music". Would you explain? I think poetry is rhythm, and words, and layered meanings. Poetry works in written form perfectly well. I think it must be possible to transmit poetry in words. I don't think it should get garbled. This is just a personal opinion based on what I think Mindspeech should be like; it doesn't have any basis in the Scripture (read: the Velgarth books...). I think poetry is an essential form of art, and the kind of Mindspeech that doesn't transmit it is crude. A different question is whether songs can be Sent; that would include melody and possibly instrumentation - what do you think, can you play in your mind a song (like Windrider Unchained from Shadowstalker, which I know by heart) and Mindspeak it so the receiver hears it as perfectly as you can remember and reproduce in your mind? I think it _is_ possible, if one could only remember it well enough. Think of Beethoven, who composed deaf; he had to hear the symphonies in his mind... -Seanna ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Nov 1995 12:32:35 EET From: "Sanna Koulu" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: mindspeech revisited... (technical complaints) Message-ID: <138D95A4B12-+AT+-otdk.helsinki.fi> Anne Cross wrote: > On Wed, 15 Nov 1995, Melanie Dymond Harper wrote: > > > Sanna said: > > > 1) I'm very new to this mailing-list thing, but still, I think > > > conversation would be a lot easier if people, when reading long > > > postings which make a lot of different points, would answer each point > > > (or subject) with a different posting. > > Oh no, please don't do that. PLEASE don't do that... I'd have to drop > off the list if you did that and then I'd be really unhappy... Lots of > posts in my mailbox that are one liners makes me go through and delete > -everything- without reading it and that's not good or fun. It also > makes me irritable and frustrated. Huh? Are you using "one-liner" in a different meaning than I? Are you saying the current Companion/Mindspeech issue, which has handled language, logic, GB, MOC being the same one always, Heraldic ethics, Stefen's/Nyara's/Kethry's/Tarma's Mindspeech, Empathy, attitudes, argumentation theory, Misty's inconsistency etc. has been posted in an ideal form? Really? Now, I thought it might be too hard on the list processor, but I wanted to know the main objections anyway. I think the long posts are too hard to handle mentally (well, they are for me...), so I thought a compromise might be in order. What do you think is the optimal form for a mailing list posting? Oh, explain "one-liner" too, someone, please? Remember I'm not always too bright... -Seanna ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Nov 1995 12:34:53 EET From: "Sanna Koulu" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: mindspeaking, Companions, and all that jazz Message-ID: <138E3336D2C-+AT+-otdk.helsinki.fi> Jaguar wrote: (snipp) > On Tue, 14 Nov 1995, Sanna Koulu wrote: > > I maintain that Rolan was too weak a Mindspeaker to bespeak Talia > > ordinarily - he would have needed her to trance. If Talia _or_ Rolan > > was better at Mindspeaking, Talia wouldn't have needed to. I > > wonder if Rolan had tranced, would he have been able to bespeak Talia > > without her doing it too? What do you think? > > > I think your Companion has been playing with your mind again. The > MOC is always Grove-Born, and that means, among other things (Cymry!) Cymry what? Please, don't assume I remember anything... :) > that he more than likely has *more* powerful Gifts, not less. He's an > actual lesha'ye-Companion, not a reincarnated Herald, so he should > have more powerful gifts. I don't think that's at all necessary. It's reasonable to say the Grove-Born are more powerful, but I don't think that automatically means they've got all the Gifts more powerful. For example, the GB might be better mages than the rest of the Companions (aren't they faster and more enduring than even normal Companions? That would imply they're better at using node magic) They don't age, which might imply they're Adept level mages (remember Starwind and Moondance didn't seem to age at all) Gwena says somewhere (I think WoC) that to her and Elspeth distance doesn't matter. So maybe the GB aren't bound by spatial limitations the way normal C-H bonds are. That might also explain how Rolan and Gwena Mindspoke at that great a distance (WoC? & WFury). Does that make any sense? So, whatever, the GB (or MOC) can be more powerful without necessarily having better Mindspeech. I think there must be individual variation too. After all, not all Companions have the same Gifts. Some are faster, some can channel magic (Gwena at least, though she's GB), some are MindHealers (Ghost in MPromise) etc. > He doesn't mindspeak Talia, not because he can't, > but because he doesn't want to shatter the mysteries behind Companions, > and reveal that Companions are....are....Oh dear, it fuzzed out of my > mind again. that's what you get for being Chosen. I'm too stubborn and vindictive for the Heralds to want me, so the buggers can't mess up my ...what was I saying? Anyway, I don't think that Mindspeaking your Chosen would be very revealing. After all, all the Companions speak at Choosing, so it wouldn't be that novel. I think Companions not bespeaking their Chosen might have more to do with self-sufficiency (and in some cases, with the Companion not having strong enough Mindspeech) - but what then of those Chosen who do have Mindspeech? No, I still think the only consistent explanation for why Companions don't talk to their unGifted chosen (like Talia) is that it takes too much energy and that all of them can't. -Seanna ------------------------------ End of MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 234 *********************************