MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 235 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re: Companions and mindspeech by "Sanna Koulu" 2) Re: Van's Bardic Gift by "Sanna Koulu" 3) Re: bardic gift and other threads by SMHA86B-+AT+-prodigy.com (MISS MARIA T FOGEL) 4) Re: Dragonlance (off topic) by SMHA86B-+AT+-prodigy.com (MISS MARIA T FOGEL) 5) Re: bardic gift and other threads by SMHA86B-+AT+-prodigy.com (MISS MARIA T FOGEL) 6) Re: Companions and mindspeech by mel (Melanie Dymond Harper) 7) Re: mindspeaking, Companions, and all that jazz by Rosario Holsen-Baker 8) (some ADMIN views) [was: (technical complaints)] by mel (Melanie Dymond Harper) 9) Re: Van's Bardic Gift by Ned 10) Re: Romance novels.... by AnneS3832-+AT+-aol.com 11) Re: bardic gift by Heather Mina 12) Rolan and Dirk by Heather Mina 13) Rolan and Talia by Heather Mina 14) Re: hmmm. by Heather Mina 15) Re: rules of mindspeech and how we know them by Heather Mina 16) Re: bardic gift by Heather Mina 17) aargh!! (mindspeaking music) by jc-+AT+-crosfield.co.uk (Jerry Cullingford) 18) Re: 'puters by jc-+AT+-crosfield.co.uk (Jerry Cullingford) 19) Re: Companions and mindspeech by Tammy Harris ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 16 Nov 1995 12:35:30 EET From: "Sanna Koulu" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Companions and mindspeech Message-ID: <138E5512FF6-+AT+-otdk.helsinki.fi> Tammy Harris wrote: [Seanna wrote:] > > > > No we haven't. I still disagree. Strong Mindspeakers can bespeak > > whoever they want to, and if Rolan doesn't bespeak Talia, then he > > either cannot (too weakly Gifted) or will not (which I think is > > illogical and stupid). So there :) > > > I disagree that Rolan was a weak Mindspeaker. He was able to Speak > with Gwena when she was in k'Sheyna vale. When Vanyel was in Forst > Reach, he contacted Haven via Mindspeech. I don't have the quote, > but, IIRC, it was a definite stretch of his abilities, and he was a > *very* strong Mindspeaker. The vale is considerably further from > Haven than Forst Reach, so it stands to reason that since Rolan was > able to reach the vale, he was a strong Mindspeaker, not a weak one. > You could make the argument that I'm comparing a human and a > companion, but Mindspeech is Mindspeech. Quote from Gwena to Elspeth "we are a special pairing - so special distance doesn't matter for us" (and wasn't that said of Talia/Rolan too - another GB pairing). Now Gwena and Rolan are both GB spirits, so distance might not matter for them. They were _both_ Mindspeakers, and both in a trance. I think that does make a difference. > > Seanna also wrote: > > > > How so? I theorize that language is being used in human-human (or > > kyree or Need or whatever) Mindspeech, but that it's also possibe to > > transmit just the ideas. > > > If transmitting just ideas is possible, it negates your belief (in an > earlier post) that Mindspeech requires a common language. No, I never said that (or I never meant it anyway). I said that that Mindspeech is _both_ verbal and ideal (?). The verbal side requires a common language, but the picture/concept/idea side doesn't. However, since it's easier to formulate clear thoughts in language, it's easier to understand Mindspeech when it also includes the verbal component. > And even > if a common language were needed (and I'm not saying it is), I don't > think it makes sense to learn Tayledras when the kyree in question > live north of Valdemar. Irrelevant and a matter of opinion. You might well be right... > [BTW, specific quotes, while very helpful, are not always possible. > I have to do my posting from work, and I can't keep all of Misty's > books sitting on my desk (much as I'd like to : )).] I know - that's why I post things like "in MPawn or possibly MPromise, when Van is talking to either Jervis or Medren" etc. I think it's better than just saying "somewhere in the books it says" Another matter of opinion, I guess. -Seanna ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Nov 1995 12:55:55 EET From: "Sanna Koulu" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Van's Bardic Gift Message-ID: <1393C5E7D61-+AT+-otdk.helsinki.fi> Mikkel Larsen wrote: > Adrienne York wrote > >This is an instance where a direct quote would help, but I don't have the > >book. Did he say, "never had" or "didn't have". Didn't have would > >indicate that when he left Forst Keep he didn't have the Gift so they > >wouldn't have taken them then. IIRC, he said didn't have. > He said didn't have !! Yeah, I checked it too. I'll yield on this point. Besides, there's better evidence... > >I think it's a more interesting question as to how the Healing gift appeared > >in his later life, when Savil says/thinks, IIRC, "and she was amazed by what > >she saw. Savil...[cut a lot of talk about testing people for Gifts]. Van > >had not one, not two, but all of his channels, with the sole exception of > >Healing, open..." Where does that Healing Gift come from I'd like to know? > > Right again.I think the Bardic Gift was swapped for Healing (In Misty's head > not in the 'reality*) Huh? In Misty's head in what way? I'll subscribe to this theory that Misty had a typo and Vanyel actually had all the Herald-gifts, Mage Gift, and _Healing_. (not Bardic) If that's what you mean. That makes sense; much more of it than the suppression theory. -Seanna ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Nov 1995 06:54:21 EST From: SMHA86B-+AT+-prodigy.com (MISS MARIA T FOGEL) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: bardic gift and other threads Message-ID: <013.04927729.SMHA86B-+AT+-prodigy.com> Kerry wrote: >Nooooooo! Don't do it! Save yourself before it's too late! That's funny... that's what the librarian said before I checked out Magic's Price... wyvern ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Nov 1995 06:54:58 EST From: SMHA86B-+AT+-prodigy.com (MISS MARIA T FOGEL) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Dragonlance (off topic) Message-ID: <013.04927738.SMHA86B-+AT+-prodigy.com> cmgeo1-+AT+-ccds.cc.monash.edu.au says: >One of Raistlin's nephews goes for The Test... I read that... I was glad he redeemed himself... :) wyvern ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Nov 1995 06:53:38 EST From: SMHA86B-+AT+-prodigy.com (MISS MARIA T FOGEL) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: bardic gift and other threads Message-ID: <013.04927717.SMHA86B-+AT+-prodigy.com> Jerry, >Probably a pre-emptive strike when it heard you wanted to be a programmer >(that was you, wasn't it?) - it just wants to get you before you have the >chance to get it :-) :-). That fits in nicely w/my theory that all comps are really intellegent and are hiding it from us whilst scheming to take over the world... wyvern ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Nov 1995 12:25:05 GMT From: mel (Melanie Dymond Harper) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Companions and mindspeech Message-ID: <9511161225.AA18746-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk> Sanna wrote: > Jenneke wrote: > > > On Wed, 15 Nov 1995, Sanna Koulu wrote: > > > Let's do a thought experiment: If I recite poetry by Mindspeech, what > > > will you hear? The meaning of the poem? But I might not understand > > > it. The words of the poem? but how could they be translated? > > > Translating poetry is _hard_ and you'll still lose some of the > > > original meaning. Or both? > > > > Do we know that poetry doesn't get horribly garbled by transmission via > > MindSpeech? I'd be inclined to think that it does, because much of > > poetry is music, which is bound up in sound as well as words. > > Hmm? I don't understand what you mean by saying "much of poetry is > music". Would you explain? I think poetry is rhythm, and words, and > layered meanings. Poetry works in written form perfectly well. > > I think it must be possible to transmit poetry in words. I don't > think it should get garbled. This is just a personal opinion based on > what I think Mindspeech should be like; it doesn't have any basis in > the Scripture (read: the Velgarth books...). I think poetry is an > essential form of art, and the kind of Mindspeech that doesn't > transmit it is crude. > I see poetry more as imagery than as words (but this may just be the way my mind works -- see below). I imagine the imagery would carry across, but any structure that the poem might have would likely be lost en route. It's somewhat like trying to translate, say, a sonnet into French; a translation preserving the imagery of the poem as closely as possible would probably no longer have the structure that made the original a sonnet. You could do a translation which _did_ preserve the form, but probably at the cost of some of the imagery. ("Shakespeare in the original Klingon", anyone?) > A different question is whether songs can be Sent; that would include > melody and possibly instrumentation - what do you think, can you play > in your mind a song (like Windrider Unchained from Shadowstalker, > which I know by heart) and Mindspeak it so the receiver hears it as > perfectly as you can remember and reproduce in your mind? > I think it _is_ possible, if one could only remember it well enough. > Think of Beethoven, who composed deaf; he had to hear the symphonies > in his mind... If it could be done, I can do it. There are songs that I know particularly well that I can listen to in my mind's ear, basically as though I were hearing the record. Strange, but true. Cheers Mel (happy to see that some of the .. ahem ... disagreement in this thread seems to have died down a bit) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Nov 1995 07:45:33 -0500 (EST) From: Rosario Holsen-Baker To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: mindspeaking, Companions, and all that jazz Message-ID: On Thu, 16 Nov 1995, Sanna Koulu wrote: > Jaguar wrote: > (snipp) > > > On Tue, 14 Nov 1995, Sanna Koulu wrote: > > > I maintain that Rolan was too weak a Mindspeaker to bespeak Talia > > > ordinarily - he would have needed her to trance. If Talia _or_ Rolan > > > was better at Mindspeaking, Talia wouldn't have needed to. I > > > wonder if Rolan had tranced, would he have been able to bespeak Talia > > > without her doing it too? What do you think? > > > > > I think your Companion has been playing with your mind again. The > > MOC is always Grove-Born, and that means, among other things (Cymry!) > > Cymry what? Please, don't assume I remember anything... :) Cymry dallied with Rolan when Skif met Talia and Kris on her internship assignment. And she forgot the supernatural fertility of the Grove Born stallions. That was the "(Cymry!)." > > that he more than likely has *more* powerful Gifts, not less. He's an > > actual lesha'ye-Companion, not a reincarnated Herald, so he should > > have more powerful gifts. > > I don't think that's at all necessary. It's reasonable to say the > Grove-Born are more powerful, but I don't think that automatically > means they've got all the Gifts more powerful. Whoops. I didn't mean that they have all the Gifts, and more powerful, just that whatever gifts they would have would be more powerful, since they are lesh'ye. > So, whatever, the GB (or MOC) can be more powerful without > necessarily having better Mindspeech. I think there must be > individual variation too. After all, not all Companions have the same > Gifts. Some are faster, some can channel magic (Gwena at least, > though she's GB), some are MindHealers (Ghost in MPromise) etc. But, according to what we've read (at least, my interpretation), all Companions can mindspeak. Just on varying levels. And just because Rolan's a more powerful mindspeaker (or might be), it doesn't follow that he's more experienced in human speech. > > He doesn't mindspeak Talia, not because he can't, > > but because he doesn't want to shatter the mysteries behind Companions, > > and reveal that Companions are....are....Oh dear, it fuzzed out of my > > mind again. > > that's what you get for being Chosen. I'm too stubborn and > vindictive for the Heralds to want me, so the buggers can't mess up > my ...what was I saying? Hah! > Anyway, I don't think that Mindspeaking your Chosen would be very > revealing. After all, all the Companions speak at Choosing, so it > wouldn't be that novel. I think Companions not bespeaking their > Chosen might have more to do with self-sufficiency (and in some > cases, with the Companion not having strong enough Mindspeech) - but > what then of those Chosen who do have Mindspeech? > No, I still think the only consistent explanation for why Companions > don't talk to their unGifted chosen (like Talia) is that it takes too > much energy and that all of them can't. > > > -Seanna Mindspeaking your Chosen wouldn't be. Mindspeaking your Chosen when she has next-to-no actual Mindspeech would be. |-------------------------------<>-------------------------------| | "So, so you think you can tell/Heaven from Hell | | Blue skies from pain/Can you tell a green field | | From a cold steel rail/A smile from a veil | | Do you think you can tell?" | |------------------------------------------------------------------------| ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Nov 1995 12:50:51 GMT From: mel (Melanie Dymond Harper) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: (some ADMIN views) [was: (technical complaints)] Message-ID: <9511161250.AA20288-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk> Seanna (whose name I apologise for misspelling twice, but I was taking it from the message headers) wrote: > Huh? Are you using "one-liner" in a different meaning than I? Are you > saying the current Companion/Mindspeech issue, which has handled > language, logic, GB, MOC being the same one always, Heraldic ethics, > Stefen's/Nyara's/Kethry's/Tarma's Mindspeech, Empathy, attitudes, > argumentation theory, Misty's inconsistency etc. has been posted in > an ideal form? Really? > Now, I thought it might be too hard on the list processor, but I > wanted to know the main objections anyway. I think the long posts are > too hard to handle mentally (well, they are for me...), so I > thought a compromise might be in order. What do you think is the > optimal form for a mailing list posting? > Oh, explain "one-liner" too, someone, please? Remember I'm not always > too bright... OK. This is my view, based on a couple of years of running mailing lists (not just this one), and several more years of participating in them. It isn't the law, by any means. Subject lines are good. If you're spinning off a new topic from a post about something different, then feel free to break it off into a different post, and put a relevant subject line on it. As long as you're saying something fairly substantial about it, or asking a question that you think might generate a lot of traffic (yes, I do realise this is hard to predict). What drags things down in processing is a lot of very small posts; a 'one-liner' in this case means a post either containing little new content (lots of quoted text followed by "Me too!" is the canonical one-liner post, although thankfully we don't tend to see a lot of those here), or a very brief post which could have been either sent in private mail or sent as part of another posting. They typically tend to happen when people are reading their mail and replying to each message as they read it (reading all of the list mail in your mailbox before replying to any of it is a Good Thing(tm)). To go off at a slight tangent, the reason it is harder on the system at this end to process two short messages than one long message is that it has to go off and talk to 300 hosts (or so), twice. That's what takes the time; the actual time to transmit the message is not a major burden unless it's very large indeed (tens of kilobytes). Let's take the hypothetical user (me) sitting at her mailbox in the morning. Browse the mail, hm, what do we have here? A post I want to make a long reply to, a post I want to make a short comment to, and a post which raises a point I need to reply to but which won't be relevant to the original message. (Much like this morning, really, 'cept for the short comment.) Read or skim the rest and delete them. First, take the post I want to reply to; trim as much as I can of the older text without losing attributions (not a whole lot in this case, I admit), add my thoughts (about half a page on my screen, if I remember rightly). Add some quoted text, with an attribution, that I wanted to make a short comment to, add hypothetical short comment, send mail. Open other message, quote as appropriate, change subject line to reflect change of topic. Reply, send mail. Now I realise that some people don't have mail readers that will allow them to do this. Fine. You might have to paraphrase people if you can't quote the text of one message into a reply to another message, but that is OK if you do it sensibly! This is a problem common to every high-volume mailing list to which I have ever subscribed. There are either moderators who screen out irrelevant posts and "me-too"s, or the folks on the list have to try and restrain themselves a little. I have no wish to actually moderate the list; for one thing I do not believe in limiting what people can say (and I find some of the not-strictly-on-topic stuff quite entertaining), and for another I simply do not have the time to do it. (List admin for the lists run from here probably takes me about 30 to 45 minutes a day as it is, and I would guess that trying to run herd on you lot would add another half-hour at the minimum.) Think before you post; if you're posting double-figure numbers of messages a day (I don't believe anyone's got there yet, but some are probably getting close) then you should probably be combining some of them. If anyone's got technical questions about how the listproc does its stuff, you should probably send me some private email. Mel. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Nov 1995 08:14:03 -0500 (EST) From: Ned To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Van's Bardic Gift Message-ID: On Thu, 16 Nov 1995, Adrienne York wrote: > > > Also I just thought of the scene in MPromise when Vanyel is > > talking with Jervis about Medren - doesn't he say straight out that > > he "never had the gift"? He was good enough at performance to > > qualify, and creativity seems less important (it's not referred to as > > often as the two others), so I think he's talking of the Bardic > > Gift. > > This is an instance where a direct quote would help, but I don't have the > book. Did he say, "never had" or "didn't have". Didn't have would > indicate that when he left Forst Keep he didn't have the Gift so they > wouldn't have taken them then. IIRC, he said didn't have. I just reread that passage two days ago, while I was looking for evidence that the Bardic gift could be used without music. It was when Van finally talked to Jervis about his broken arm (in MPromise). Van was bitching slightly that he never got the feeling back in his fingers and Jervis asks him if he (Van) could have made it as a Bard. Van sort of shakes his head and says "No, I didn't have the Gift" (if there is any interest, I'll post the quote tonight or tomorrow when I get my hands on my book again). I read this to mean that Van was saying, in effect, "No, you didn't ruin my chances of becoming a Bard by breaking my arm, since I didn't have the Gift anyway" Now, after Van gained his gifts, this would become a moot point anyway, so it wouldn't mean that the Gift didn't develop later: just that Van, __when he was injured__, wasn't qualified to become a bard. Zhai'helleva Ned Ned Adams aka S. Baldrick Cuius testiculos habes, habeas cardia et sbaldric-+AT+-roanoke.infi.net cerebellum. (540) 890-0212 (T. Pratchett) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Nov 1995 08:19:47 -0500 From: AnneS3832-+AT+-aol.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Romance novels.... Message-ID: <951116081947_107921532-+AT+-emout06.mail.aol.com> Hi Folks- Somehow I missed this thread before. . . . . but in my days when anything printed was worth reading, the one bodice ripper that I actually bought, rather than borrowed from the library was a book that I still say was really well plotted, and slightly less sexist than most- it was titled "The Wolf and the Dove" . . .gorky title, but a good book . . . I have no idea if this has been offered up as a good book here or not, but if you are into the genre, give it a try . . . . Back to mopping up the rainwater from the #$-+AT+-*%$ back door window that broke last night . . . . Anne |\ _,,,---,,_ /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ annes3832-+AT+-aol.com |,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-' '---''(_/--' `-'\_) "Shared pain is lessened, shared joy doubled"- S. Robinson ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Nov 95 08:55:03 GMT+0000 From: Heather Mina To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: bardic gift Message-ID: <9511161356.AA23430-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk> jenneke writes: >If a Herald had the Bardic Gift in addition to others, learning control >of it would not require the same study as would be required of a Bard >learning to use it properly in conjunction with his/her playing. Yes, he would! Now a Herald would necessarily have an advantage, already knowing the basic mechanics of using Gifts, but would still need to learn the same musical techniques and little Bardic Gift tricks as any other Bardic student. This assumes, of course, that a given Herald (who also just happens to have the Bardic Gift) would know he had the Gift (and we're still hashing that one around in reference to Vanyel) and would *want* the training at Bardic! +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Heather L. Mina | She whose head echoes | | hlmina-+AT+-vwc.edu | with a hollow BOONNNGGGGG | | heamin-+AT+-sunshine.vab.unisysgsg.com | | +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Nov 95 08:55:01 GMT+0000 From: Heather Mina To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Rolan and Dirk Message-ID: <9511161356.AA23429-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk> At 08:19 PM 11/15/95 GMT, Kathy Covert wrote: >Seanna "Sanna Koulu" said... >>Well, Rolan Speaks stiltedly, implying he's not accustomed to it. It >>seems he doesn't Mindspeak much. I don't think there's any proof >>that all Companions are terrific at Mindspeech. > >I always assumed that *all* Companions communicated among themselves by >MindSpeech/MindHearing. I can't quote books (still not returned by my >friend and I'm at work in any case...) but I think Karal refers to >Companion's Field/Stable as "oddly silent" (compared to a horse stable). >Also, there are several references to "catching the edge of 's >sending" as a warning/notice that another Herald+Companion was approaching. >(I imagine a Companion "broadcasting" at low power...."Hi, it's Rolan and >Talia here, just passing through on state business, anything going on that >I/we need to know about?" continuously on some sort of semi-automatic >process) And certainly Rolan and Gwena are communicating...long >distance.. presumably by MindSpeech/MindHearing...in WoC and WoF. This >long-distance effort required Gwena to trance--and the trance was what gave >the communication away. I think you have made an important point here. Remember (in A. Flight) when Talia and Kris were waiting at the waystation for their briefing from another Herald, and were pleased when Rolan caught Cymry's sending? There were other instances of this as well. >As to Rolan' stiltedness, I'd chalk that up to circumstances- Rolan was >exhausted, his Herald was in mortal danger, he had to speak with someone he >had (presumably) never spoken to before *and* he was interceding when such >intercession was an extraordinary event. I'm not surprised he wasn't >fluent and at ease. Dirk was exhausted from trying to Fetch Talia, his >lifebonded was in mortal danger... no wonder he wasn't MindHearing very >well. I would agree here, too. Rolan was speaking directly into the mind of someone who would not expect it at all. I'd say that the :Man. Herald. Dirk.: was Rolan's way of getting his attention ---> "Hey you! You! Hey, KATHY!!! Over here!". >I assumed ML wrote it like that to emphasize the extraordinary-ness of the >event, and perhaps to emphasize that this was a difficult communication to >establish. > >After the initial contact, : Man. Herald, Dirk.:, the link was made, and >the communication got more meaningful (I can't quote, but there something >like--I will help you. We all will help you. Together we may be strong >enough....) "Okay, Kathy, now that I've got your attention, , we've got to pull your lifebonded out of the fire. Ready for my help?" I agree with you wholeheartedly on this one. If you were completely unprepared for someone to be speaking in your mind, then it would probably take a few tries for them to get your attention. "Hey, you in there! It's me! Yes, the Companion! Now, would you listen to me for a minute?" I'm not trying to make light of the situation, but to demonstrate what would be going on in *my* mind if I were Rolan. I'd assume that Dirk would be thinking something along the lines of "huh? who was th-? what the -? ROLAN?!?" Grins to you all, Heatehr (who cannot even spell her name) P.S. I forgot my glasses this morning, so I get to wear my shades all day today! +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Heather L. Mina | She whose head echoes | | hlmina-+AT+-vwc.edu | with a hollow BOONNNGGGGG | | heamin-+AT+-sunshine.vab.unisysgsg.com | | +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Nov 95 09:27:24 GMT+0000 From: Heather Mina To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Rolan and Talia Message-ID: <9511161428.AA25340-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk> I think Seanna wrote (snipped from an earlier message - my apologies) >> Well, Rolan Speaks stiltedly, implying he's not accustomed to it. It >> seems he doesn't Mindspeak much. I don't think there's any proof >> that all Companions are terrific at Mindspeech. I don't see any >> reason why one couldn't be weak, even though he's GB. Being a spirit >> doesn't mean you are perfect (take Gwena!). jenneke replies: >We've seen Rolan MindSpeak once, to someone other than his Chosen, under >great stress, and when thoroughly exhausted, after not having Mindspoken >a human in years (at least 6, by my count). I always took the >stiltedness of his :Man...: to be due to exhaustion, 'breathlessness', >and trying to gather his thoughts. After all, he was reasonably eloquent >to Talia when he Chose her. Also, Rolan is trying to get the attention of someone who is most assuredly not expecting to hear the mind-voice of his beloved's companion. I see the "Man. Dirk. Herald." thing as a sort of "hey you! yes, YOU!". After that, they seem to be fairly comfortable mindspeaking each other. My apologies - I do not know who said this: >> Explain how? Why is it simpler to assume Rolan chooses not to Speak >> Talia? That creates a whole new can of worms (like, why does he then >> talk stiltedly, why do they all choose not to bespeak their unGifted >> Chosen, what's the harm in it, what of all the possibly fatal >> situations in which he doesn't Mindspeak her etc.) jenneke replies... >The harm is in the chance of creating dependence on the Companion's >abilities rather than fostering reliance on the Herald's own abilities. >If you always carry a child who can't walk, they'll never learn to use >their wheelchair. If Rolan always used his abilities to communicate with >Talia, she would never learn to use her abilities to do the same. Also, since we know Talia isn't very good at the whole mindspeech thing, she would have to trance down to hear, and Rolan would have to "shout". These things would require an enormous amount of energy, not to mention concentration, which (in an emergency situation) might not be available. But if the empathic link can carry images, then there is no reason why Rolan shouldn't picture what he wants Talia to do, and vice versa. +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Heather L. Mina | She whose head echoes | | hlmina-+AT+-vwc.edu | with a hollow BOONNNGGGGG | | heamin-+AT+-sunshine.vab.unisysgsg.com | | +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Nov 95 09:27:28 GMT+0000 From: Heather Mina To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: hmmm. Message-ID: <9511161428.AA25339-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk> At 09:56 PM 11/15/95 GMT, Catherine wrote: >sorry about the off-topic short post, but...jenneke and Heather...I'm >getting a little tired of the rather barbed posts that have been going >around lately. first, I've just seen another mailing list come to the >brink of open flame war and I didn't like what it did to the people >there. Luckily it ddidn't actually happen. second, misty's work is great >and why we're all here, presumably, but really, its just not that >important! You guys are insulting each other's intelligences and being >quite barbed. Really, they're just theories! About fantasy books! Thank you Catherine. This is why I posted my feelings about the argument and how it has progressed. To me - as a writer myself - the definitions and rules of magic (or faster-than-light travel or whatever) are an extremely crucial part of the story. Understanding the rules of magic (or whatever) is very important for all of us as readers. And it really gets to me when we can't recognize our assumptions and emotions and separate them from the text. I'll be the first to admit that I do this just as much as anyone else, but when I am having a discussion about a text (or group of texts), then I expect us all to come to the table as mature analysts of the literature, having left our emotional baggage at the door. Now, I love Misty's works, and I don't want to see ANYONE trashing them. But what we're doing here is not trashing them, but trying to deduce (and induce) some of her thought processes from the text. As we've all seen, this is not always an easy task. Wind to thy wings, Heather +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Heather L. Mina | She whose head echoes | | hlmina-+AT+-vwc.edu | with a hollow BOONNNGGGGG | | heamin-+AT+-sunshine.vab.unisysgsg.com | | +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Nov 95 09:27:27 GMT+0000 From: Heather Mina To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: rules of mindspeech and how we know them Message-ID: <9511161428.AA25341-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk> jenneke writes... >Or simply communication. Mindspeech is a lot shorter and catchier than >mental communication, after all. Aaahhh, but Misty chose not to call it "thoughtsending" or "thoughtcasting" (as she DID call one clavor "thoughtsensing"), but mindspeaking. Why not have both thoughtsending and thoughtsensing? Why call it mindspeech - and consistently, ALWAYS represent it as actual words - if you really mean something else? Writers choose their words very carefully, and we need to learn something from their decisions. We can't be bound by what we would like to think is the case. >> which was said out loud. This is important, because absolutely EVERYTHING >> placed with the colons is speech, in a specific language (down to idiomatic >> expressions in OTHER languages, like the term 'ashke', which flavors >> Savil's, Lendel's, and Vanyel's speech throughout the Magic trilogy). This >> supports the idea that "mindspeaking" utilizes actual language, as well as >> the idea that a thoughtsenser would have to know the same language as the >> speaker. If there were translation (as postulated in another post), then we >> would never see the foreign idioms popping up; these would be translated as >> well, so "ashke" would always be something like "dear". (In fact, I believe > >Foreign terms are always in italics, which, to me, implies that they're >being sent in the same way as proper nouns, ie. not translated due to >recognition by the receiving party pre-translation. Actually, there are really only two valid arguments here. 1. Foreign words appear because mindspeech is dependent on language. 2. Mindspeech is not dependent on language, so the author uses foreign words to give additional color to the text. (this would represent inconsistency). Either of these can be argued textually, and with references to other texts in the genre. I tend to lean toward the first, for the following reasons. 1. Misty deliberately CHOSE to use the word mindspeech, which implies language, as words like "thoughtsending" would not. 2. I don't know if it happens in mindspeech or only in vocal speech, but Savil and the Tayledras use Tayledras words that Vanyel does not completely understand (in Van's training in the first book of the trilogy). If mindspeech was not dependent on language, then Van would understand the essence of these words with little/no confusion. 3. (okay, this is an emotional argument) Inconsistencies really bother me, and I would hate to argue the second point, since it is arguing that the author just uses the device of foreign words to ass color and flavor to her prose. A good author should not need to use a silly device like this one (in fact, the good ones very strongly advise against new writers using foreign words at all, except as proper names) in order to color the text; the text should be sufficiently colorful on its own. 4. As to proper names, how do we know they aren't translated? Just here on earth, we have the United States of America, and los Estados Unidos. That proper name is certainly translated. And Johann Bach is just John Brook to me. How would an internal mindspeech translator know that something is a proper name, and thus not subject to translation like every other combination of sounds? This is too much of a stretch for me! >Where does Rolan complain? I can recall places where Rolan has been >frustrated with Talia's tendency towards withdrawl and despondency, but I >can't for the life of me remember any place where he's frustrated or >annoyed with *himself* for being too weak a Mindspeaker to communicate >with her or whathaveyou. Anybody? There is a quote about Rolan being really frustrated at not being able to mindspeak his Chosen, and that's what touched off this entire discussion. >> 5. Mind-gifts are sought out and trained only in Valdemar. (Well, >> we don't really know about Iftel). Many mage schools seem to be >> uncomfortable with mindgifts, and some nations even forbid their use. >One of the nations which forbids their use is Karse, pre-Solaris. Karal >was inducted into the priesthood pre-Solaris, when those with mindgifts >were burned for heresy. The fact of his survival would tend to very >strongly imply that he has no mindgifts whatsoever, yet he hears >mindspeech from a kyree, as well as from a Companion and a Firecat. To >me, this means that the unGifted can hear a strong projective. How do >you interpret it? Nope. Karal tells us that *not* all gifted (mage, mind, or whatever) children are burned. Most of them, in fact, are snatched up by the priesthood and trained in the use of their gifts there. (how else do you explain the demon-summoners, if all gifted children are killed?) So the fact of Karal's survival, given that he was chosen by the priesthood, means absolutely nothing in his gift status (and almost argues *for* him having at least some latent potential for gifts). >> 6. The Herald-Companion bond strengthens gifts of all sorts. Since >> Kethry actively sought a familiar to strengthen her mage potential, it can > >It's been a while since I read the relevant section, but I never >understood that Kethry expected her Gift to be strengthened by having a >familiar. A familiar would be "useful" to her, but that could as easily >be understood as implying providing an extra set of eyes, ears, etc., as >intensifying her Gift. Kethry did mention that she was growing in her powers, and that having a familiar would help her hone and strengthen them. But note carefully my actual wording here: <<< it can be postulated that strong spiritual bonds of any sort (lifebond, twin <<< bond, she'enedren bond, goddess bond, soul bond, mage-familiar bond) <<< strengthen gifts. (Note: again, I said "postulate", not "prove". This <<< means that there is probably textual evidence to support this theory, but I <<< am not prepared to look it all up and give it to you right now). This is not an assertion, but a suggestion that is open for anyone to LOOK IT UP IN THE TEXT. I do believe that most deep bonds awaken things in us that help us develop all of our gifts (magic or otherwise). Naturally, the Companion bond (or firecat bond) would even more help one develop the magical gifts, since the Companions are very strong magical creatures. >> 8. "Blood magic", the killing or causing pain to a creature in order >> to utilize the energy released in such acts, is also possible. There is >> textual evidence that supports the use of blood magic for channeling energy >> to feed a mage-gift. Since a Herald would never perform blood magic, we do >> not know whether blood magic can give energy to a mind-gifted person. >I believe we have evidence for this, actually. In _White Gryphon_, the >insane outcast from White Gryphon is a powerful Fetcher and gets energy >from the blood magic performed by the King's disowned brother. Thank you. I thought so, but I couldn't remember exactly, and didn't have my books at hand. Wind to thy wings, Heather +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Heather L. Mina | She whose head echoes | | hlmina-+AT+-vwc.edu | with a hollow BOONNNGGGGG | | heamin-+AT+-sunshine.vab.unisysgsg.com | | +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Nov 95 09:27:29 GMT+0000 From: Heather Mina To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: bardic gift Message-ID: <9511161428.AA25342-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk> >> Remember that the three prerequisites for entrance to the Bardic Collegium >> are Talent, Creativity, and Gift. You have to have two to get in, unless >> you are the heir to a noble house (as Van was), in which case you must have >> all three. Therefore, Talia has Talent, but no Gift. > >You must have two to be accepted as a Bard, one as a minstrel. Heirs had >to have TWO to get in, not three. The Collegium wasn't prepared to take >someone's heir just so they could be a minstrel. Vanyel was told (well, Savil was told) that he had both Talent and Creativity, but not the Gift. The Collegium is not going to accept an heir unless he is so Gifted and Talented that they just can't keep him out! +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Heather L. Mina | She whose head echoes | | hlmina-+AT+-vwc.edu | with a hollow BOONNNGGGGG | | heamin-+AT+-sunshine.vab.unisysgsg.com | | +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Nov 1995 14:50:01 +0000 (GMT) From: jc-+AT+-crosfield.co.uk (Jerry Cullingford) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: aargh!! (mindspeaking music) Message-ID: <9511161450.AA11820-+AT+-crosfield.co.uk> [mindspeaking music/poetry; replaying music] > If it could be done, I can do it. There are songs that I know particularly > well that I can listen to in my mind's ear, basically as though I were > hearing the record. Strange, but true. > Mel > Aargh! You've done it now ! :-). I started trying this (to see how close the replay sounded to how I remembered the record, if you see what I mean) and the #$%%! tune keeps popping back in... Where's a companion when you need one? :-) :-) Anyway, since we seem to have sort of worn everybody down :-) to the position that there's some means of mindspeech-as-ideas (e.g. Eldan's animal mindspeech) and some means of mindspeech-as-sound (e.g. pigment names), there's no reason why mindspoken poetry shouldn't be able to do sound *and* ideas. Or sounds/ideas/images. Or sounds/background music/ideas/images/feelings if you mix a bit of projective empathy in :-). Now *that* would be a really neat artform :-) (Maybe that's why Talia's singing worked so well? If she was unconsciously projecting _her_ feelings, that would work a bit like the bardic gift for manipulating listeners emotions, wouldn't it? ). -- _|_ / | Jerry Cullingford jc-+AT+-crosfield.co.uk (Work) \_|_ jc-+AT+-selune.demon.co.uk (Home) \__/ Hemel Hempstead, UK jerry-+AT+-shell.portal.com (alternate) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Nov 1995 15:00:48 +0000 (GMT) From: jc-+AT+-crosfield.co.uk (Jerry Cullingford) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: 'puters Message-ID: <9511161500.AA11929-+AT+-crosfield.co.uk> > > Jerry, > >Probably a pre-emptive strike when it heard you wanted to be a > programmer > >(that was you, wasn't it?) - it just wants to get you before you > have the > >chance to get it :-) :-). > That fits in nicely w/my theory that all comps are really > intellegent and are hiding it from us whilst scheming to take over > the world... > > > wyvern Hehe... only 'scheming to'? I think they've got most of the world already - now they're working their way into everyone's home - and quite a few pockets (probably why my Psion has a microphone - it can't *see* out of my pocket... :-) :-) ) -Jerry -- _|_ / | Jerry Cullingford jc-+AT+-crosfield.co.uk (Work) \_|_ jc-+AT+-selune.demon.co.uk (Home) \__/ Hemel Hempstead, UK jerry-+AT+-shell.portal.com (alternate) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Nov 1995 10:22:45 -0500 From: Tammy Harris To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Companions and mindspeech Message-ID: <6103C661CAF-+AT+-medicine.dmed.iupui.edu> Hi All! > > If transmitting just ideas is possible, it negates your belief (in an > > earlier post) that Mindspeech requires a common language. > > No, I never said that (or I never meant it anyway). I said that > that Mindspeech is _both_ verbal and ideal (?). The verbal side > requires a common language, but the picture/concept/idea side > doesn't. However, since it's easier to formulate clear thoughts in > language, it's easier to understand Mindspeech when it also includes > the verbal component. Okay, I concede the point. > > [BTW, specific quotes, while very helpful, are not always possible. > > I have to do my posting from work, and I can't keep all of Misty's > > books sitting on my desk (much as I'd like to : )).] > > I know - that's why I post things like "in MPawn or possibly > MPromise, when Van is talking to either Jervis or Medren" etc. I > think it's better than just saying "somewhere in the books it says" Okay, I'll buy that! Tammy "It's time to ask yourself what you believe." ------------------------------ End of MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 235 *********************************