MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 238 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) re: Innocent? Where?! by SMHA86B-+AT+-prodigy.com (MISS MARIA T FOGEL) 2) Empathy and the Bardic Gift by "Sanna Koulu" 3) Re: mindspeaking companions by "Sanna Koulu" 4) Re: bardic gift by "Sanna Koulu" 5) Re: Casting by Rosario Holsen-Baker 6) Re: Van's Bardic Gift by "Sanna Koulu" 7) Re: bardic gift by Catherine Osborne 8) Re: Internet cookie recipe by CODIORNE-+AT+-WELLESLEY.EDU 9) Cookie Recipe by duvall.23-+AT+-postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu (Stacy Hunt DuVall) 10) Re: Van's Bardic Gift by Catherine Osborne 11) Re: Chemistry People by "Thomas, Daria" 12) attributes by Heather Mina 13) Re: Excessive subjection to Disney makes one ill? by Heather Mina 14) Groveborn Companions by Heather Mina 15) Disney addicts by Heather Mina 16) Re: Excessive subjection to Disney by Heather Mina 17) Re: Excessive subjection to Disney makes one ill? by Heather Mina 18) Re: bardic gift by Heather Mina 19) Re: Empathy and the Bardic Gift by Heather Mina 20) Re: bonding and grove born companions by "Schroedinger's Cat" 21) Re: Van's Bardic Gift by Tammy Harris 22) Re: bardic gift by Heather Mina 23) Re: bardic gift by Jennifer Broekman 24) Re: Cookie Recipe by Rich Crawford 25) Re: bonding and grove born companions by Jennifer Broekman 26) non-sequitor by Staci Schoenfeld ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 17 Nov 1995 06:35:59 EST From: SMHA86B-+AT+-prodigy.com (MISS MARIA T FOGEL) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: re: Innocent? Where?! Message-ID: <013.04999487.SMHA86B-+AT+-prodigy.com> Lisa Ellen Watermelon Waltz says: > Now, let me get this straight. There are >actually innocent >people on this list?! How do you use this word? >Definition? And, >preverted little me, what are -erns? Wherefore art >they found? wyvern is confused as to whom Zoe is talking, but remembers saying once, and responds. If you weren't talking to me, ingore this... An '-ern' is the companion to a wyv. Like two bookends. > As to how I define innocent: anyone who hasn't had prolonged contact w/me. wyvern ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Nov 1995 13:40:02 EET From: "Sanna Koulu" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Empathy and the Bardic Gift Message-ID: Mel wrote: > Jerry wrote: > > > (Maybe that's why Talia's singing worked so well? If she was unconsciously > > projecting _her_ feelings, that would work a bit like the bardic gift for > > manipulating listeners emotions, wouldn't it? ). I agree; I'll concede the point about Talia's Bardic Gift. Jadus might well have been referring to the Empathy when he was talking of "Talent", or he might have confused the two. I still don't think it's impossible that Talia has a trace of the Bardic Gift too; there's just no textual evidence either way. A matter of opinion I guess.:) > > Yes, I imagine it would; now that you come to mention it, I'd be hard > pressed to define the difference between Talia's Empathy and the > Bardic Gift. I would imagine that the Bardic gift doesn't give the > reception abilities that Talia has; Yes, but that's receptive Empathy. The real problem is how projective Empathy and the Bardic Gift differ. If they work the same way and produce the same results, there isn't really any need for the distinction. I thought there might be a difference in the way the Gifts work; namely, that projective Empathy sends the emotion you yourself feel, whereas with the Bardic Gift you could control the receiver's emotions more precisely, even if you don't feel that way. Bardic Gift seems to me more coldly manipulating (I know, Valdemaran Bards wouldn't do it, but others might.), because you don't have to have the emotion that you send. What do you think? I know there's no textual proof for such an interpretation, and some things oppose it, but it seems workable enough to me. > also, Talia's gift is emotions only, whereas the Bardic gift > probably also includes some level of 'image' projection (I use the > word in quotes because this would be mind's-eye images, much like > what I said earlier about poetry, rather than actual pictures. Hm. I > may now have managed to confuse myself there.) I'd think Empathy _can_ transmit pictures; like "free!" It's partly emotion, but also a concept, possibly even a picture. Also, Empathy can let you see through someone else's eyes; that's a form of actual picture reception. And when Talia punished the child abuser in Arrow's Flight, that involved pictures, I think. > Probably the Bardic gift starts out as projection-only, and maybe you'd get > a small amount of receiving ability with a particularly strong Gift (like > Stefen's, for instance; I imagine he had at least some reception capability > based on remarks he made in _Magic's Price_ about Randale, and about the > merchant for whom he played and from whom he received Vanyel's focus-stone). > With Empathy, you start as receive-only and get some projection ability with > a strong Gift such as Talia's. I doubt they'd ever meet in the middle, though... I tend to think of receptive and projective Empathy as two different aspects of the same Gift, the same way there's receptive and projective Mindspeech. It seems like the projective form requires more power and effort. But weak Empaths, like Vanyel and Lendel, can project too, even if it doesn't always work that well. I'm not at all sure of receptive Bardic Gift, could someone post the quotes? I think Stefen's affinity with Randale might be due to his "singing the pain away", which was a Wild Talent (whatever that means) and separate from his Bardic Gift. (Wasn't it described as a form of MindHealing?) -Seanna ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Nov 1995 13:54:24 EET From: "Sanna Koulu" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: mindspeaking companions Message-ID: Kathy wrote: > Seanna "Sanna Koulu" said... > >Well, Rolan Speaks stiltedly, implying he's not accustomed to it. It > >seems he doesn't Mindspeak much. I don't think there's any proof > >that all Companions are terrific at Mindspeech. > > I always assumed that *all* Companions communicated among themselves by > MindSpeech/MindHearing. I can't quote books (still not returned by my > friend and I'm at work in any case...) I agree on this; I meant that Rolan isn't accustomed to human/Companion Mindspeech. The Companions' group-mind (thanks to whoever introduced the word) would compensate for Companions with weak Mindspeech. I think the Companion communication is closer and possibly on a deeper plane than other Mindspeech. (snip) > As to Rolan' stiltedness, I'd chalk that up to circumstances- Rolan was > exhausted, his Herald was in mortal danger, he had to speak with someone he > had (presumably) never spoken to before *and* he was interceding when such > intercession was an extraordinary event. I'm not surprised he wasn't > fluent and at ease. Dirk was exhausted from trying to Fetch Talia, his > lifebonded was in mortal danger... no wonder he wasn't MindHearing very > well. Let's remember, the Empire envoy in WFury Mindspeaks in the audible range (I checked: it's Mindspeech marked with " instead of :, and it's said it's audible to even the unGifted) while he is building a Gate! The GB are _spirits_, who don't age, with supernatural stamina etc. - though the circumstances surely count for something, I don't think they explain it all. (Just btw; I'm not at all sure, but has there been mention that exhaustion makes mind contact _easier_? Like in Di Tregarde? Or am I thinking of the some other author?) -Seanna ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Nov 1995 14:09:08 EET From: "Sanna Koulu" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: bardic gift Message-ID: <13B6077F7-+AT+-otdk.helsinki.fi> Heather Mina wrote: > jenneke writes: > >If a Herald had the Bardic Gift in addition to others, learning control > >of it would not require the same study as would be required of a Bard > >learning to use it properly in conjunction with his/her playing. > > Yes, he would! Now a Herald would necessarily have an advantage, already > knowing the basic mechanics of using Gifts, but would still need to learn > the same musical techniques and little Bardic Gift tricks as any other > Bardic student. I don't think so; the Bardic Gift doesn't require you to know how to play or sing, after all. Why would there be any need to teach the (possibly totally a-musical) Herald scales or chords or music history etc.? > This assumes, of course, that a given Herald (who also just happens to have > the Bardic Gift) would know he had the Gift (and we're still hashing that > one around in reference to Vanyel) and would *want* the training at Bardic! The Gift is recognizable to Heralds (or Herald-Mages at least). Remember Vanyel scanned Stefen? (Or it might have been Fandes). But anyway, I think it would be recognized in Gift training. I think the main reason why Talia's Gift wasn't, is that Companions never Choose potential Healers (who are the ones with the Empathy). And, anyone with an untrained gift is dangerous. It's not a question of whether the hypothetical Herald with the Bardic Gift _wants_ the training; he'd have to get it. -Seanna ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Nov 1995 07:28:17 -0500 (EST) From: Rosario Holsen-Baker To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Casting Message-ID: Okay, only Owl responded to this (thank you, Owl, at least someone listens to me!), so I'm 'suming either no one read it or no one's paying attention to me ...in which case I think I'll shut up now... > All right, folks, it's TIME FOR ANOTHER POLL! Yep, this one has > to do with casting. Please e-mail me privately and give me your cast > lists for the VALDEMAR BOOKS ONLY. I'm not taking on the whole bunch of > Misty's books! I'll post the results in about two weeks. > > -Jaguar, getting really tired of her Companion Lavaan playing > around with her mind and memories... |-------------------------------<>-------------------------------| | Hello, hello, hello, is there anybody *in* there? | | Just nod if you can hear me/Is there anyone home? | | Come on...now/I hear you're feeling...down | | I can ease your pain/Get you on your feet again | |---------------------http://www.sidwell.edu/~rholsen--------------------| ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Nov 1995 14:33:05 EET From: "Sanna Koulu" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Van's Bardic Gift Message-ID: <1A1237FF3-+AT+-otdk.helsinki.fi> Adrienne York wrote: > On Wed, 15 Nov 1995, Sanna Koulu wrote: > > > Wyvern wrote: > > > > Tah Daaah! I found it! the evidence I was looking for! Here: > > > > MPromise (1st ed pb) page 94: Vanyel says "Medren! You are better > > than I was, even at fifteen. In a few years you are going to be > > better than I could ever hope to be if I practiced every hour of my > > life. You have the Bardic-Gift, lad, and that's something no amount > > of training will give." > > > > I think that's pretty conclusive! Vanyel can't be better than Medren, > > even if he practiced all his life, since _he doesn't have the Gift_. > > > I think that just means that Van isn't naturally as great a musician as > Medren. Will Medren ever be as great as Stef, even if Medren practices > all *his* life. What do you mean, naturally as great a musician? What does that have to do with anything? (and why would Van bring the Bardic Gift into discussion at all if it didn't have some relevance to "who is better" ? ) I think the above quote clearly says that training can't give the Bardic Gift.(QED...) So _even if Vanyel practiced, he wouldn't have the Gift_. Now, right at that moment Vanyel is a better musician than Medren, even without the Gift, because he's had more training. So why does he say that in a few years he could never be as good? After all, Vanyel had the Skill (of the three Bardic requirements) so good that Breda said they'd snap him up instantly. I think the only explanation is that Vanyel doesn't have the Gift. About Medren and Stefen: if Stefen hadn't had any training, but Medren had, which would be the better musician? Training and practice does count for something, you know. (Unfortunately... me and my guitar don't get along...) > > Also check page 96... "and _he_ has the Gift", implying Vanyel > > doesn't. > > > That, "and _he_ has the gift has no meaning for me, because you don't > give any context and I don't currently have access to the LHM. If that's > what I'm thinking of, when Van is saying something about Medren's being > sent to Haven, wouldn't that just mean that it wouldn't have done any > good to send Van to Bardic because Van didn't have the Bardic Gift until > *after* he was chosen. Um, sorry. In that scene Vanyel is thinking of how much like him Medren is, so it seems like the "and _he_ has the Gift" is the only point of difference. Now it might mean that Vanyel didn't have the Gift when he was fifteen... Taken alone all these quotes are refutable; but take them all together and think about them then. > I don't think there's any need for the suppression theory. There's no > big suppression theory going around about Van's Firestarting. Why? > Because whenever we saw him, he could either use a coal to light his > fires or using a Gift would just have put him in danger or dangerously > exhausted him. Same goes for Bardic. There's several scenes where Vanyel lights fires with the power of his Mind, as Mat points out. It's even stated that it was (to Stefen) a bit scary that Vanyel could "waste" power that way. What do you think, everyone, should I read all the books again and write up all the scenes where Vanyel uses (mind)magic and all the spots where his Gifts are referred to? It might prove interesting. For example, if there's 10 spots where Vanyel's Fetching is mentioned, and 15 about his Foresight, but 0 about the Bardic, I think that would be pretty strong proof, especially taken with all the circumstantial evidence against Vanyel having the Gift. -Seanna ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Nov 1995 07:47:56 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine Osborne To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: bardic gift Message-ID: On Thu, 16 Nov 1995, Heather Mina wrote: > >his ever becoming a Herald, most likely. He had the Talent, but no Gift > >or Creativity. Hence Bard Breda(?)'s pitying look at him after his first > >class. > > He had two of the three. If he had had all three, he would have gotten in. actually, he only had Talent. Breda says that you need two of the three to be taken away from a position as your father's heir. I\/ Catherine Osborne "After great pain, I\/ Sundancer a formal feeling comes." I cosborne-+AT+-sidwell.edu --Emily Dickinson I http://www.sidwell.edu/~cosborne/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Nov 1995 07:53:18 -0500 (EST) From: CODIORNE-+AT+-WELLESLEY.EDU To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Internet cookie recipe Message-ID: <01HXQQI4ROTU9D5E4B-+AT+-WELLESLEY.EDU> Oh, dear...I've seen this two-three times already on the Internet alone. It's a good cookie recipe, so I'm told -- but the story is a complete fallacy. Did not happen, no such thing. Thia, who wishes she had time to make cookies ) \ / ( /|\ )\_/( /|\ * / | \ (/\|/\) / | \ * |`._______________/__|__o____\`|'/___o__|__\_________________.'| |Cynthia Odiorne '^` \|/ '^` codiorne-+AT+-wellesley.edu | |SCA Judith Hosford V jennaria-+AT+-spike.wellesley.edu| |FDC Mrs. Potts | | Meddle not in the affairs of bards | | For your name is silly and scans to Greensleeves | | .__________________________________________________________. | |' l /\ / \\ \ /\ l `| * l / V )) V \ l * l/ // \I V ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Nov 1995 08:27:39 -0500 From: duvall.23-+AT+-postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu (Stacy Hunt DuVall) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Cookie Recipe Message-ID: <199511171327.IAA05981-+AT+-postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu> NONONONONONONONONONNONNONONONONONONONNO! ARGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!! Please, please, please, not the cookie recipe. I have seen it in printed form inumerable times!!! Sigh. I had (foolishly) supposed I could avoid such a chainmail type thing through email. To Scarlet: please don't take offence at my cries of anguish, but that cookie recipe and story have been circulating for many, many, MANY years now. Stacy Hunt DuVall duvall.23-+AT+-osu.edu "What's my loftiest ambition? I've always wanted to throw an egg at an electric fan." ---? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Nov 1995 08:48:17 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine Osborne To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Van's Bardic Gift Message-ID: On Fri, 17 Nov 1995, Sanna Koulu wrote: > What do you think, everyone, should I read all the books again and > write up all the scenes where Vanyel uses (mind)magic and all the > spots where his Gifts are referred to? It might prove interesting. > For example, if there's 10 spots where Vanyel's Fetching is > mentioned, and 15 about his Foresight, but 0 about the Bardic, I > think that would be pretty strong proof, especially taken with all > the circumstantial evidence against Vanyel having the Gift. Yeah, Seanna. *That's* the reason you want to reread the MP's? ;) I\/ Catherine Osborne "After great pain, I\/ Sundancer a formal feeling comes." I cosborne-+AT+-sidwell.edu --Emily Dickinson I http://www.sidwell.edu/~cosborne/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Nov 95 07:53:00 cst From: "Thomas, Daria" To: 'mercedes-lackey' Subject: Re: Chemistry People Message-ID: <30AC942C-+AT+-mailsrvr.bussvc.wisc.edu> Well, I'm not a chemistry people, but I have a BS in mathematics and a love for computers and all the sciences. Is that close enough? Maybe we could call this thread "Hard Sciences People?" And my best teacher? Well, that's hard to decide, I was lucky enough to have a few truly outstanding ones. But the one that pops to mind is my sixth grade teacher. I'll never forget her sense of humor and this image I have of her once actually collapsing onto a desktop in laughter--in my opinion, laughter is something we don't get enough of at school and work. She also helped me see that being "normal" was not necessarily a good thing! Hooray! -Daria ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Nov 95 09:36:17 GMT+0000 From: Heather Mina To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: attributes Message-ID: <9511171437.AA22005-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk> Adrienne writes: >Sorry if this is kind of a rant, but it hasn't been a great day. Also, >Heather, would you please stop deleting attributes. I think You made the >first statement, then me, then you, then Rosario, then you and now me. >But I'm not sure because you were deleting the who saids. Actually, I have made it a point to include all the attributes that are available to me. Although, I typically condense them into two words (as above). The attributes in our discussion about entrance to Bardic were all lost in the wind before I responded to the message. Sorry - it's not me! Heather +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Heather L. Mina | She whose head echoes | | hlmina-+AT+-vwc.edu | with a hollow BOONNNGGGGG | | heamin-+AT+-sunshine.vab.unisysgsg.com | | +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Nov 95 09:36:15 GMT+0000 From: Heather Mina To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Excessive subjection to Disney makes one ill? Message-ID: <9511171437.AA22001-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk> At 11:05 PM 11/16/95 GMT, you wrote: >Heather Mina wrote: >>And I live with a 2 year old who is perpetually asking for Simba, Ariel, or >>Beast. There is just about always one of the Disney tapes in the VCR, and >>we watch about 20 or 30 minutes of one of them every morning after breakfast >>but before "school". > > Hmmm...I suppose this is a bad time to mention I actually like >*some* Disney. Beauty and the Beast I like, and some of the older films >are delightfully cheesy. > Look on the bright side: they could be watching Barney. Umm... actually, they are. And Lamb Chop, too. > Thia, who also reads romances. Of course I have a mind! I don't >read Xanth any more... You know, one of my most profound disappointments was when Anthony wrote more books after Split Infinity/Blue Adept/Juxtoposition. They really s*cked! +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Heather L. Mina | She whose head echoes | | hlmina-+AT+-vwc.edu | with a hollow BOONNNGGGGG | | heamin-+AT+-sunshine.vab.unisysgsg.com | | +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Nov 95 09:36:13 GMT+0000 From: Heather Mina To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Groveborn Companions Message-ID: <9511171437.AA21989-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk> About Gwena being Grove-born, I most profoundly apologize and abase myself at your feet. I had forgotten about the passage where Vanyel grabs Elspeth (and company) while they're gating. My humblest regrets... Heather +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Heather L. Mina | She whose head echoes | | hlmina-+AT+-vwc.edu | with a hollow BOONNNGGGGG | | heamin-+AT+-sunshine.vab.unisysgsg.com | | +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Nov 95 09:36:11 GMT+0000 From: Heather Mina To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Disney addicts Message-ID: <9511171437.AA21985-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk> Amy wrote: >I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to say that after myself watching it a >million times, I would watch it again, including _The Little Mermaid_, >and _The Lion King_. I am an avid Disney fanatic and have enjoyed every >animated movie they have put out. (You should see my Disney movie >collection) Though, I agree with some people that _Pocahontas_ wasn't as >good. I felt like Disney was trying to be too politically correct and >missing out on the actual plot of the story. Does anyone fell this way >also, or am I the only one above the age of 14 that throughly enjoys Disney? You know, in spite of the fact that I just complained about my 2-year-old constantly watching them, the stories and animation are so good that they suck me in, too, every time. And I enjoy playing the Lion King Animated Storybook CD-ROM that we got for my son, at least as much as he does. (You should see my husband playing the pouncing game...) It's really sad when you have the previews at the beginning of the tape memorized. Robbie gets just as excited about the Pocahontas and Aristocats previews as he does about the movie. Wind to thy wings, Heather +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Heather L. Mina | She whose head echoes | | hlmina-+AT+-vwc.edu | with a hollow BOONNNGGGGG | | heamin-+AT+-sunshine.vab.unisysgsg.com | | +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Nov 95 09:36:27 GMT+0000 From: Heather Mina To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Excessive subjection to Disney Message-ID: <9511171437.AA22026-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk> Kitty wrote: > Remember that things sometimes get lost or broken (I cant >find that tape right now), and it is >OK to say no we arn't going to watch TV this morning or right >now. Replace the video with cuddling up with child and book. Pick >one the 7 year old will get sucked into. Grolier has a book club of Disney books - that's how my son got into Beauty & the Beast. (I secretly think he just liked to hear me doing the Beast with a growl in my voice. He *loves* to roar like a lion!) But we regularly read at bedtime and (you probably don't want to hear this) on the potty. +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Heather L. Mina | She whose head echoes | | hlmina-+AT+-vwc.edu | with a hollow BOONNNGGGGG | | heamin-+AT+-sunshine.vab.unisysgsg.com | | +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Nov 95 09:36:25 GMT+0000 From: Heather Mina To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Excessive subjection to Disney makes one ill? Message-ID: <9511171437.AA22023-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk> >Ah, my heart be still I am not alone in the world I have a 3 and 7 yr old >who will sit and watch movies at least a hundred time each. I thought if I >heard Peter Pan's voice one more time I would self combust. Now it is the >power rangers and their frighteningly annoying song. I think we should >start a support group for harried and harrassed individuals who can't take >one more viewing. > > > Lill > (GO< GO POWER RANGERS aaack I can't get it out of my >brain) We are... we are V R !!! aaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrggggggggghhhhhhhh..... (No - that's actually *three* lines - grin) +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Heather L. Mina | She whose head echoes | | hlmina-+AT+-vwc.edu | with a hollow BOONNNGGGGG | | heamin-+AT+-sunshine.vab.unisysgsg.com | | +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Nov 95 09:36:57 GMT+0000 From: Heather Mina To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: bardic gift Message-ID: <9511171438.AA22088-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk> >> jenneke writes: >> >If a Herald had the Bardic Gift in addition to others, learning control >> >of it would not require the same study as would be required of a Bard >> >learning to use it properly in conjunction with his/her playing. >> Heather responded: >> Yes, he would! Now a Herald would necessarily have an advantage, already >> knowing the basic mechanics of using Gifts, but would still need to learn >> the same musical techniques and little Bardic Gift tricks as any other >> Bardic student. > Seanna responded: >I don't think so; the Bardic Gift doesn't require you to know how to >play or sing, after all. Why would there be any need to teach the >(possibly totally a-musical) Herald scales or chords or music history >etc.? I think that the Bardic Gift is similar to empathy in its mechanics, but needs music to be channeled. However, that music could potentially be just a human voice, or a rhythmic pattern (tapping toes?), in order to channel the gift. >> Heather claims: >> This assumes, of course, that a given Herald (who also just happens to have >> the Bardic Gift) would know he had the Gift (and we're still hashing that >> one around in reference to Vanyel) and would *want* the training at Bardic! > Seanna replies: >The Gift is recognizable to Heralds (or Herald-Mages at least). >Remember Vanyel scanned Stefen? (Or it might have been Fandes). But >anyway, I think it would be recognized in Gift training. I think the >main reason why Talia's Gift wasn't, is that Companions never Choose >potential Healers (who are the ones with the Empathy). Don't forget that the Heralds in Vanyel's time have a much better understanding of the mechanics of Gifts than the Heralds in Talia's time. I think that this may be due in part to the blurriness of magery, that gift-lore might have gotten fuzzy as well. So the Heralds in Selenay's court may not recognize the bardic gift in one of their own - they seem to adopt a "wait and see what develops" attitude as far as gifts go. Seanna writes: >And, anyone with an untrained gift is dangerous. It's not a question >of whether the hypothetical Herald with the Bardic Gift _wants_ the >training; he'd have to get it. I agree that this is true. But I think that not all Heralds (especially after Vanyel's death) would know they have the Gift. If Talia has it, she certainly doesn't sem to know (or she may just chalk it up to her empathy and move on). +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Heather L. Mina | She whose head echoes | | hlmina-+AT+-vwc.edu | with a hollow BOONNNGGGGG | | heamin-+AT+-sunshine.vab.unisysgsg.com | | +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Nov 95 09:36:55 GMT+0000 From: Heather Mina To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Empathy and the Bardic Gift Message-ID: <9511171438.AA22087-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk> Seanna writes: >Yes, but that's receptive Empathy. The real problem is how projective >Empathy and the Bardic Gift differ. If they work the same way and >produce the same results, there isn't really any need for the >distinction. It may be that the Bardic Gift is a special case of projective empathy, where the energy must be channelled through music. I'm not saying this can be proven, I'm just saying that it is an idea... >I thought there might be a difference in the way the Gifts work; >namely, that projective Empathy sends the emotion you yourself >feel, whereas with the Bardic Gift you could control the receiver's >emotions more precisely, even if you don't feel that way. Bardic Gift >seems to me more coldly manipulating (I know, Valdemaran Bards >wouldn't do it, but others might.), because you don't have to have >the emotion that you send. Talia doesn't seem to always be feeling the emotions she sends. I think there were descriptions of her using her empathy to soothe ruffled feathers in the council, while she felt very frustrated and angry at their political machinations. In those situations, I would have a hard time *feeling* the patience and tolerance, but I might be able to project them to calm someone else down... Who knows! ??? attribution lost >> also, Talia's gift is emotions only, whereas the Bardic gift >> probably also includes some level of 'image' projection (I use the >> word in quotes because this would be mind's-eye images, much like >> what I said earlier about poetry, rather than actual pictures. Hm. I >> may now have managed to confuse myself there.) Seanna's response: >I'd think Empathy _can_ transmit pictures; like "free!" It's partly >emotion, but also a concept, possibly even a picture. Also, Empathy >can let you see through someone else's eyes; that's a form of >actual picture reception. And when Talia punished the child abuser in >Arrow's Flight, that involved pictures, I think. Also, think about the picture Talia had of Ylsa's death, and how she can mesh with Rolan and see what he is seeing. Just thinking about what the word empathy means to us (divorced from what it means in the book - sharing of an experience, vicarious or otherwise, sympathetic or otherwise), I think we can probably assume that the empathic gift allows for more than just emotions. >I'm not at all sure of receptive Bardic Gift, could someone post the >quotes? I think Stefen's affinity with Randale might be due to his >"singing the pain away", which was a Wild Talent (whatever that >means) and separate from his Bardic Gift. (Wasn't it described as a >form of MindHealing?) A "Wild" gift would be one which appears very, very infrequently. Examples would be the thief in Oathbound who can make himself look like someone you know, no matter who you are; (arguably) Talia's form and strength of projective empathy; and Stef's Bardic-Healing Gift. +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Heather L. Mina | She whose head echoes | | hlmina-+AT+-vwc.edu | with a hollow BOONNNGGGGG | | heamin-+AT+-sunshine.vab.unisysgsg.com | | +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Nov 1995 10:21:30 -0500 (EST) From: "Schroedinger's Cat" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: bonding and grove born companions Message-ID: On Thu, 16 Nov 1995, Heather Mina wrote: > WHOA! Gwena was most assuredly not grove born. They thought she was at > first, but then remembered her as a quiet little mare who mostly kept to > herself. I am reluctant to buy into the theory that this was mind-clouding > on the part of Gwena and the other Companions, because that's a *lot* of > work. I am more willing to subscribe to the fact that their pairing was Actually, if you compare this section of text to other sections involving Companion's suppression of Herald's thoughts, this is fairly clearly a case of mind-clouding. Compare it, for example, to the scene where Rolan suppresses Talia's memory of their initial bonding. Also, there are other textual clues. Like Heather, I don't have the actual passage right in front of me (I am at work), but I seem to remember the word "regret" or "regretfully" is used to describe Rolan. I am not sure that there is any evidence that anyone but Talia has the particular memory of Gwena as a herd outlier. Anyway, I think that the textual evidence is clear if you give it a deep, hermeneutic reading. Kenneth Allen Hyde | No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife Univ. of Delaware | between the shoulder blades will seriously Dept. of Linguistics | cramp his style -- Old Jhereg proverb kenny-+AT+-strauss.udel.edu | A mind is a terrible toy to waste! -- Me ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Nov 1995 10:32:55 -0500 From: Tammy Harris To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Van's Bardic Gift Message-ID: <62868393E91-+AT+-medicine.dmed.iupui.edu> Hi! On Nov 16, Mat Timmerman wrote: > Savil says something like, "All of his channels had been blasted open > to their widest possible extent, with the exeption of Healing." To > me, this always meant that all his other Gifts has been opened to > their full potential, while Healing was only partially opened. ' I brought MPawn to work today (what, you mean you actually want me to *work*? :-)). Savil's exact quote (p. 215) is: " Vanyel had them all. Each channel she tested--with the sole exception of Healing--was open; most of them had been forced open to their widest extent." She goes on to say: "And--irony of ironies--as if the gods were taking with one hand and offering a pittance as compensation--the Bardic Gift." I may be misreading this, but to me, it says that Vanyel *did* have the Bardic Gift, and did *not* have the Healing Gift. Where he got the Healing he uses later, I haven't a clue. And although we never see him using the Bardic Gift, I don't see why this means he doesn't have it. There's never any reason for him to use it, and as he tells Medren, the Gift should only be used when told to by the Bardic Circle or the ruler. Just MHO, Tammy "It's time to ask yourself what you believe" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Nov 95 10:36:04 GMT+0000 From: Heather Mina To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: bardic gift Message-ID: <9511171537.AA24096-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk> Catherine writes: (as did others...) >actually, he only had Talent. Breda says that you need two of the three >to be taken away from a position as your father's heir. Sorry, sorry, sorry! I concede this one! (I just had a foggy idea that Van had done some composing, but then I am probably confiusing Lark and Wren with Magic's Promise) Apologies... +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Heather L. Mina | She whose head echoes | | hlmina-+AT+-vwc.edu | with a hollow BOONNNGGGGG | | heamin-+AT+-sunshine.vab.unisysgsg.com | | +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Nov 1995 10:59:01 -0500 (EST) From: Jennifer Broekman To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: bardic gift Message-ID: On Thu, 16 Nov 1995, Heather Mina wrote: > Vanyel was told (well, Savil was told) that he had both Talent and > Creativity, but not the Gift. The Collegium is not going to accept an heir > unless he is so Gifted and Talented that they just can't keep him out! On page 93 of _Magic's Pawn_ (the DAW paperback edition), it says: "He has to have two out of three; Gift, Talent, and Creativity - you *know* that, Chadran," said the woman. "Shanse didn't see any signs of Gift either, did he?" Chadran sighed. "No. Breda, when Savil asked me about this boy, I looked up Shanse's report on the area. He *did* mention the boy, and he *was* flattering enough about the boy's musicality that we could get him training as a minstrel if -" "If -" "If he weren't his father's heir. But the truth is, he said the boy has a magnificent ear, and aptitude for for mimicry, and the talent. But no creativity, and no Gift. And that's not enough to enroll someone's heir as a mere minstrel. [...]" -jenneke, who happens to be at home at the moment, and thus has access to the novels. jsb-+AT+-phantom.com new .sig in development ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Nov 1995 08:16:34 -0800 From: Rich Crawford To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Cookie Recipe Message-ID: <199511171616.IAA14823-+AT+-franc.ucdavis.edu> >Please, please, please, not the cookie recipe. I have seen it in printed >form inumerable times!!! Sigh. I had (foolishly) supposed I could avoid >such a chainmail type thing through email. To Scarlet: please don't take >offence at my cries of anguish, but that cookie recipe and story have been >circulating for many, many, MANY years now. > I first saw it in the newspaper office I worked in three years ago. The last time I saw it was in _Curses, Broiled Again_ by Jay Van Brunvard. It's a book on urban legends, which the cookie recipe story definitely is. ............................................................................ ................................ Zhai'helleva Rich ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Nov 1995 11:20:10 -0500 (EST) From: Jennifer Broekman To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: bonding and grove born companions Message-ID: On Thu, 16 Nov 1995, Heather Mina wrote: > WHOA! Gwena was most assuredly not grove born. They thought she was at > first, but then remembered her as a quiet little mare who mostly kept to > herself. I am reluctant to buy into the theory that this was mind-clouding > on the part of Gwena and the other Companions, because that's a *lot* of On page 92 of _Winds of Fury_ (DAW hardcover edition), it says: :They - ah - need to talk,: Vanyel said delicately. :Your Gwena, for all that she is Grove-born, is just as falliable as any other mortal.: "She's *what?*" Elspeth yelped. Darkwind squinted and scratched his ear to recover from her cry. Grove-born? And no doubt Elspeth had been made to forget *that* as well! This passed everything for sheer, unadulterated gall - [...] :She's Grove-born,: Vanyel repeated. :So, they "forgot" to tell you that, too, hmm? Doubtless "for your own good." [...]She makes all the kinds of mistakes any young thing makes, but because she is Grove-born, she thinks she will always make the right decision.: -jenneke jsb-+AT+-phantom.com new .sig in development ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Nov 1995 08:35:11 -0800 From: Staci Schoenfeld To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: non-sequitor Message-ID: <199511171635.IAA18231-+AT+-stealth.romoidoy.com> is that how you spell that? anyway, I just pick up my mail and one of the headers was "Different song, same name" I thought automatically that it really should be "Different Name, Same Song" if it was more arguments pro or con Bardic Gift in Vanyel...but then I had a REALIZATION! when I actually read the mail -- it was from another mailing list I am on about a musician. Just thought it was amuzing and wanted to share :) Zhai'helleva Staci ------------------------------------------------------------ Staci Schoenfeld http://www.zoom.com/personal/staci/staci1.htm ------------------------------ End of MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 238 *********************************