MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 256 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re: HIV and AIDS in Valdemar by jc-+AT+-crosfield.co.uk (Jerry Cullingford) 2) Re: Sheep by Rosario Holsen-Baker 3) Re: multiple personalities by Rosario Holsen-Baker 4) Re: Randale's illness by Rosario Holsen-Baker 5) Re: re- myriad subjects by Catherine Osborne 6) Re: Randale's illness by Rosario Holsen-Baker 7) Re: Shavri and Companions by Catherine Osborne 8) Re: re- myriad subjects by mel (Melanie Dymond Harper) 9) Re: multiple personalities by Heather Mina 10) Re: Shavri as MOH by Heather Mina 11) Re: Randale's illness by Heather Mina 12) Re: Randale's illness by Heather Mina 13) Re: Shavri and Companions (marriage!) by Heather Mina 14) Re: multiple personalities by Tammy Harris 15) Re: Shavri as MOH by Catherine Osborne 16) hmmm. by Catherine Osborne 17) Re: Randale's illness by Absolut Flaming 18) Re: HIV and AIDS in Valdemar by "Starhawk" 19) Re: Shavri as MOH by Tammy Harris 20) Re: Shavri and Companions (marriage!) by Catherine Osborne 21) Re: HIV and AIDS in Valdemar by Catherine Osborne 22) Re: Randale's illness by Rosario Holsen-Baker 23) Re: hmmm. by Rosario Holsen-Baker 24) Re: HIV and AIDS in Valdemar by Jennifer Broekman 25) Re: Randale's illness by Jennifer Broekman 26) Re: Shavri as MOH by Heather Mina ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 09:43:33 +0000 (GMT) From: jc-+AT+-crosfield.co.uk (Jerry Cullingford) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: HIV and AIDS in Valdemar Message-ID: <9512010943.AA11440-+AT+-crosfield.co.uk> > I always thought Randale died of a disease resembling AIDS too. > Especially as it, along with child abuse, seems to be one of the > issues Misty likes to address in her books. (Remember Lenny in the > Di Tregarde books?) >> Unlikely, I suspect - Doesn't AIDS leave you open to all sorts of secondary illnesses, which I don't recollect seeing Randale suffering from. There are a lot of wasting diseases/conditions around, and my bet would be on something hereditary - there's a quote in storm rising from a surgeon, taliking about healers - something about "Healers restore the body to its natural state, which is why only [surgeons] can do anything for congenital defects" - that would tend to suggest that Randales problem is likely to be genetic in origin. I tend to rate the magical attack theory as fairly unlikely, too - There were enough mages around to check for that, and it seems likely they'd have checked - so I'd rate it "possible but unlikely". -- _|_ / | Jerry Cullingford jc-+AT+-crosfield.co.uk (Work) \_|_ jc-+AT+-selune.demon.co.uk (Home) \__/ Hemel Hempstead, UK jerry-+AT+-shell.portal.com (alternate) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 07:22:25 -0500 (EST) From: Rosario Holsen-Baker To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Sheep Message-ID: Joan Ferguson wrote: > Sundancer wrote: >Frankly, my dear, its been so long that both you *and* sheep are starting > >to look good. > > > > > > Pick the sheep - they don't snore! :-) > (bad paraphrase, I know, of one of my all-time favorite Misty Moments (TM) > -- another is Kero's choice words at discovering that Daren had arrived with > troops (especially the part about the mule) -- anyone else have others? > Could this be yet another thread?!) It's "stick to the sheep, they don't snore." :) I don't remember many others, though. |--------------------------------<>------------------------------| | Three rings for the elven kings under the sky | | Seven for the dwarves in their halls of stone | | Nine for the mortal men, doomed to die | | One for the dark lord on his dark throne.... | |---------------------http://www.sidwell.edu/~rholsen--------------------| ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 07:34:24 -0500 (EST) From: Rosario Holsen-Baker To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: multiple personalities Message-ID: Kerry Mealing wrote: > Heather wrote: > > Tammy wrote: > > >One thing has always puzzled me about this. Why did > > >Falconsbane not recognize the "white clad riders" (Elspeth and Skif)? > > >He was clueless about both the Heralds and Valdemar (when Ancar > > >mentioned it), which doesn't make sense to me, after the lifetime he > > >spent as Leareth. Ideas? > > > > I think it's pretty well established that Falconsbane was, shall we say, > > 'round the bend. He also didn't seem to have very clear memories of > > anything in his previous lives, just a hatred of gryphons and a hatred of > > the Tayledras (which may have been just from his current incarnation). Any > > takers? > > I think he had reasonably clear memories, for a couple of reasons - > firstly And'esha accessed those memories (so they had to be there somewhere) > and secondly, at one stage in Winds he gets a bit of a shock when he > realizes how much magic-related knowledge that he's forgotten since Maar's > time (He compares Firesong rather detrimentally to Maar at the time). No, I don't buy that. I don't think *Falconsbane* could have accessed those memories. They were probably pretty clear when And'esha accessed them because he was a bit more sane/stable than Falconsbane. Falconsbane would probably either have blocked off most of those memories, or have clouded them over somewhat in his little vendettas. And'esha doesn't have the complication of delusions of grandeur, obsessive-compulsive behavior, etc, so he'd probably be able to get to the memories with less complications. > Re Falconbane's not recognizing Heralds.. Well, he didn't know where he > was, probably never really did realize what Companions were, the style > of Herald clothing has no doubt changed etc. It has, remember in the Vale when Vanyel "kidnapped" Darkwind and Elspeth and Firesong (oh my!) and the rest of them? Elspeth described Vanyel's clothing as "an ancient form of Whites." That's a paraphrase, BTW, me-+AT+-school, etc. > Alternatively, he could > just have been waxing lyrical (or expansive anyway).. he seems the type > to pontificate at the drop of a hat. > I wouldn't be surprised. The way he rants and raves in the little thought-scenes that we are privileged/unlucky enough to see...well, I'd hate to be on the recieving end of one of them. If nothing else (like painful, which it probably would be), it would be long and boring! |--------------------------------<>------------------------------| | Three rings for the elven kings under the sky | | Seven for the dwarves in their halls of stone | | Nine for the mortal men, doomed to die | | One for the dark lord on his dark throne.... | |---------------------http://www.sidwell.edu/~rholsen--------------------| ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 07:39:49 -0500 (EST) From: Rosario Holsen-Baker To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Randale's illness Message-ID: That wasn't me! That was someone else! I said that he didn't infect the Herald-Mages because it would be too slow. If all of a sudden all the Herald-Mages got sick and didn't reach 35, I'd start wondering and looking for an enemy. They would probably have enough power in the early stages to go Leareth-hunting. Safer, far, to kill them in "accidents" than to sit around waiting for them to die. > Jaguar wrote: > (About why, if Leareth caused Randale's disease, he didn't also > infect the Herald-Mages) > > > This is pulled from left field, but it's possible that > > node-energy, in addition to all of its other wonderful effects, > > offers some protection from disease (whether natural or magical). > > Don't Tayledras Healing Adepts enjoy perfect health up until a few > > weeks before they die? |--------------------------------<>------------------------------| | Three rings for the elven kings under the sky | | Seven for the dwarves in their halls of stone | | Nine for the mortal men, doomed to die | | One for the dark lord on his dark throne.... | |---------------------http://www.sidwell.edu/~rholsen--------------------| ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 07:41:23 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine Osborne To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: re- myriad subjects Message-ID: would someone explain what a Concordance is? Something from Firebird, yeah, but what? I\/ Catherine Osborne "After great pain, I\/ Sundancer a formal feeling comes." I cosborne-+AT+-sidwell.edu --Emily Dickinson I http://www.sidwell.edu/~cosborne/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 07:44:15 -0500 (EST) From: Rosario Holsen-Baker To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Randale's illness Message-ID: Seanna wrote: > So the point of this diatribe :) is that I think Leareth didn't have > anything to do with Randale's disease. Really, I don't see how he > could have. It's also unlikely that he's got Healing at all (Healer- > Adepts are _really_ rare). > He doesn't have to be a Healer-Adept. In fact, he probably wasn't in any of his incarnations, he doesn't seem to have the character for it. Assuming Fetching is the same as teke, he could have used very fine-tuned Fetching to transplant blood from a sick person or a random tumor into Randale. |--------------------------------<>------------------------------| | Three rings for the elven kings under the sky | | Seven for the dwarves in their halls of stone | | Nine for the mortal men, doomed to die | | One for the dark lord on his dark throne.... | |---------------------http://www.sidwell.edu/~rholsen--------------------| ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 07:49:32 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine Osborne To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Shavri and Companions Message-ID: You guys seem to be forgetting something: the reason Van thinks Shavri is a bad monarch's own is that she can't handle the non-personal side: diplomacy, treaties, envoy duty, etc. That's what Van was doing for her; that's what Talia does for Selenay, along with the emotional stuff. I\/ Catherine Osborne "After great pain, I\/ Sundancer a formal feeling comes." I cosborne-+AT+-sidwell.edu --Emily Dickinson I http://www.sidwell.edu/~cosborne/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 13:17:33 GMT From: mel (Melanie Dymond Harper) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: re- myriad subjects Message-ID: <9512011317.AA08547-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk> > would someone explain what a Concordance is? Something from Firebird, > yeah, but what? It's basically a reference work relating to a book or books; lists all the places, people and things, typically with citations. Doubtless one or more of the library types out there will give a better answer than this :) Mel. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Dec 95 08:58:30 GMT+0000 From: Heather Mina To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: multiple personalities Message-ID: <9512011400.AA09834-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk> >> Tammy wrote: >> >One thing has always puzzled me about this. Why did >> >Falconsbane not recognize the "white clad riders" (Elspeth and Skif)? >> >He was clueless about both the Heralds and Valdemar (when Ancar >> >mentioned it), which doesn't make sense to me, after the lifetime he >> >spent as Leareth. Ideas? >> Heather responded: >> I think it's pretty well established that Falconsbane was, shall we say, >> 'round the bend. He also didn't seem to have very clear memories of >> anything in his previous lives, just a hatred of gryphons and a hatred of >> the Tayledras (which may have been just from his current incarnation). Any >> takers? >Kerry answered: >I think he had reasonably clear memories, for a couple of reasons - >firstly And'esha accessed those memories (so they had to be there somewhere) >and secondly, at one stage in Winds he gets a bit of a shock when he >realizes how much magic-related knowledge that he's forgotten since Maar's >time (He compares Firesong rather detrimentally to Maar at the time). I agree that the memories were physically present in the brain, but I don't think Falconsbane had ready and clear access to them at all times. He has such an enormous ego that, coupled with his insanity, would encourage him *not* to look too deeply into his memories. I think he's satisfied with the surface generalities that he can easily remember - whether or not they are accurate - and just doesn't bother with anything more. Otherwise, I think he would have discovered And'esha's presence and destroyed him completely. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~ Friendship is what makes you think almost as much ~ ~ for someone else as you do for yourself. ~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Heather Mina ..... hlmina-+AT+-vwc.edu ..... heamin-+AT+-sunshine.vab.unisysgsg.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Dec 95 08:58:32 GMT+0000 From: Heather Mina To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Shavri as MOH Message-ID: <9512011400.AA09833-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk> And a good morning to you as well, Alice! >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >snip from Heather: >Since the purpose of the Monarch's Own Herald is to be the *one* person in >the entire world who the Monarch can absolutely trust, who the Monarch can >say anything to, and who will say whatever needs to be said to the Monarch >--> in order to keep the Monarch mentally and emotionally healthy <-- Shavri >was a perfect choice for Randale. >end of snip from Heather >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> snip from Alice: >I think perhaps that is exactly why Shavri was the wrong King's Own for >Randale. She was so emotionally involved on a personal level that she would >never be perceptive enough to say whatever needs to be said to the Monarch in >the way that she needs to. Can you imagine her giving Randale the kind of >mental slaps on the wrist that Talia sometimes had to give Selenay? I will agree with you halfway, but with the caveat that if two people in a relationship such as theirs cannot handle the verbal wrist-slaps that are needed for honesty, then they have some growing up to do. (Before we were married, my husband was my supervisor in a job. While this caused a lot of heartache for us both, we learned to separate our professional time from our personal time. The experience helped us to mature greatly, and to learn how to say things that were not necessarily easy but needed to be said). The reason I don't see Shavri wrist-slapping is not so much because of her relationship with Randale, but because of the kind of person she is. And keep in mind that while Selenay might respond well to that technique, another monarch (like Randale, for example) might not. Besides, I think the most important reason Shavri was the MOH was so that her Healing energies could be exclusively devoted to keeping Randale from showing signs of his illness. >Also, how would Shavri's being chosen as other than MOC (regular Herald) have >put her in the line of succession? Shavri needed to be at Randale's side so that nobody saw how weak he really was. As the MOH, she had a good reason to be there. But if she had not been Chosen as the MOH, then there would have had to be a good reason for her to be with him. If she had been Chosen, even without a real marriage to Randale, her consort status would put her in a position to make a possible bid for the throne. (While I *know* that she didn't want it, what is to stop power-hungry nobles who think she would be biddable from trying to put her on the throne?) If she had not been Chosen at all, then she would be unable to take the throne, but also would have been quite obvious at Randale's side in her Healer's greens. What do you think? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~ Friendship is what makes you think almost as much ~ ~ for someone else as you do for yourself. ~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Heather Mina ..... hlmina-+AT+-vwc.edu ..... heamin-+AT+-sunshine.vab.unisysgsg.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Dec 95 08:58:28 GMT+0000 From: Heather Mina To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Randale's illness Message-ID: <9512011400.AA09832-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk> >On Thu, 30 Nov 1995, Sunfalcon wrote: >> (presuming he had eithe Far-Sight or simple Mage-Sight) if Learath linked >> with a circle >> of Blood Mages and tapped into large nodes, he could conceivably pinpoint >> targets in Valdemar and literally mess with their minds (by popping small >> blood vessels in the brain, etc.) and impair their judgement (or balance, >> with Kilchas and Davri) at critical moments. And jenneke replied... >Ah, but that would show up in an autopsy. Far better to just use >Fetching or magic and simply push them... Autopsy? Are we talking about the same Valdemar? I just don't see the Circle carving up a dead Herald's brain and noticing popped blood vessels. >I don't think Velgarth knows about viruses. They know about the >connection between dirt and disease, but so did the real world well >before the discovery of viruses. Also, we have no evidence that any form >of MageSight or Healing can *see* things as small as viruses. Creating >or manipulating something that small is vastly different from creating or >manipulating something large enough to look at. Finally, wouldn't it be >much easier for him to just set Randale's immune system off in a vicious >spiral without actually creating a virus? Viruses have the nasty ability >to mutate and cause unpredictable effects, some people are naturally >immune to even new ones, etc. While I agree that viruses are too small for anyone in Velgarth to have seen (with the remotely possible exception of the Valdemaran engineers, who seem to have their hands in every field), I have no doubts that Healers can take manipulate viruses, in spite of their size. I personally see Healing as a matter of sensing what is not right about a body and manipulating the insides to make it right again - beyond the physical mechanics of medicine and pharmacology, that is. However, as far as fetchers, see-ers, and mages go, I would suspect that seeing on the microscopic level is on the order of an entirely different Gift, and I would doubt that your average one (in any of these categories) would be able to see or manipulate viruses. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~ Friendship is what makes you think almost as much ~ ~ for someone else as you do for yourself. ~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Heather Mina ..... hlmina-+AT+-vwc.edu ..... heamin-+AT+-sunshine.vab.unisysgsg.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Dec 95 09:29:22 GMT+0000 From: Heather Mina To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Randale's illness Message-ID: <9512011431.AA10582-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk> seanna wrote: >Hey, hasn't it been said somewhere, somewhen in the Velgarth books >that HEALING CAN PASS YOUR SHIELDS. Or am I confusing this with the >deryni stuff? Can someone who knows what I'm talking about post the >relevant quote? (On a side note, remember that shielding against mind- >magic needs much stronger shields than only against true magic) I think that Healing can go through shields, but that it is much easier if the Healed person takes down his/her shields. Less energy,... But you're right, it might be a Deryni thing. Anyone up for a survey of the Healing Gift throughout the literature? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~ Friendship is what makes you think almost as much ~ ~ for someone else as you do for yourself. ~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Heather Mina ..... hlmina-+AT+-vwc.edu ..... heamin-+AT+-sunshine.vab.unisysgsg.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Dec 95 09:29:32 GMT+0000 From: Heather Mina To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Shavri and Companions (marriage!) Message-ID: <9512011431.AA10610-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk> >> Yes, they could have waited, but the way Heralds get >> killed off (even though they weren't full Heralds yet and the Heir is >> reasonably protected) why begrudge them the time they have? > >Again, why on earth do they need to get married to be together??? There's a really neat quotation about this somewhere, which I don't have so I'll paraphrase: When a person discovers that he wants to spend the rest of his life with another person, he wants the rest of his life to start RIGHT NOW. I know I felt this way when I realized my husband was the *one*. And I have a feeling that Treven and Jisa wanted the same public acceptance of their commitment to each other. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~ Friendship is what makes you think almost as much ~ ~ for someone else as you do for yourself. ~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Heather Mina ..... hlmina-+AT+-vwc.edu ..... heamin-+AT+-sunshine.vab.unisysgsg.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 01 Dec 1995 09:39:22 -0500 From: Tammy Harris To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: multiple personalities Message-ID: <7778DC13E31-+AT+-medicine.dmed.iupui.edu> > Tammy wrote: > >One thing has always puzzled me about this. Why did > >Falconsbane not recognize the "white clad riders" (Elspeth and Skif)? > >He was clueless about both the Heralds and Valdemar. Heather wrote: > I think it's pretty well established that Falconsbane was, shall we say, > 'round the bend. He also didn't seem to have very clear memories of > anything in his previous lives, just a hatred of gryphons and a hatred of > the Tayledras (which may have been just from his current incarnation). Any > takers? I was under the impression that Falconsane retained most of his memories from his past incarnations. He had forgotten a lot, especially details (haven't we all?), but I thought he had at least retained the basics. Gyrfalcon wrote: > Remember though, Leareth just wanted the area, He didn't truely understand > what the Heralds were, and I don't believe that he cared. He only > physically met Van, and killed the rest of the **Mages** that could pose > a power threat to him. He didn't once look towards the heralds as a > possible threat, and probally didn't think of the companions as anything > but horses. He never even stepped inside the Valdemarian borders. The > fact that Elspeth and Skiff were from the north probally never occured to > Falconsbane. Kerry Mealing wrote: > Re Falconbane's not recognizing Heralds.. Well, he didn't know where he > was, probably never really did realize what Companions were, the style > of Herald clothing has no doubt changed etc. (forgive me for picking and choosing like this, but it seemed the best way to say what I wanted to.) I'll buy both of these explanations for why Falconsbane didn't recognize the Heralds. But I still think he should have recognized Valdemar. IIRC, in discussions with Ancar, he (Ancar) mentions Valdemar by name, as well as going on and on about the Heralds in white with white horses, etc. I think bells should have begun to ring by this point. Just MHO. Later! Tammy "It's time to ask yourself what you believe" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 10:07:12 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine Osborne To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Shavri as MOH Message-ID: On Fri, 1 Dec 1995 ARisemberg-+AT+-eworld.com wrote: > I think perhaps that is exactly why Shavri was the wrong King's Own for > Randale. She was so emotionally involved on a personal level that she would > never be perceptive enough to say whatever needs to be said to the Monarch in > the way that she needs to. Can you imagine her giving Randale the kind of > mental slaps on the wrist that Talia sometimes had to give Selenay? Which is exactly what Vanyel does for Randale, along with the diplo. stuff. Remember Van's lecture on the subject of marriage? I\/ Catherine Osborne "After great pain, I\/ Sundancer a formal feeling comes." I cosborne-+AT+-sidwell.edu --Emily Dickinson I http://www.sidwell.edu/~cosborne/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 10:16:42 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine Osborne To: mercedes lackey list Subject: hmmm. Message-ID: speaking of power-hungry nobles... We see a lot more of them in the Arrows books than pretty much anywhere else in Velgarth. Seems like even in the "contemporary" (Storms) council meetings, its mostly our old favorites who talk, with an occasional aside from a dairy farmer or something ;) There aren't any Lord Orthallen types, or the lot of relatives manuevering to get either Jeri or Kris declared Heir when Elspeth hasn't been chosen yet. BTW, Ma'ar had another incarnation as a (mad) Shin'a'in who destroyed half the Cat Clan (courtesy of an aside in SR) I\/ Catherine Osborne "After great pain, I\/ Sundancer a formal feeling comes." I cosborne-+AT+-sidwell.edu --Emily Dickinson I http://www.sidwell.edu/~cosborne/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 10:18:06 -0500 (EST) From: Absolut Flaming To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Randale's illness Message-ID: On Fri, 1 Dec 1995, Jennifer Broekman wrote: > before the discovery of viruses. Also, we have no evidence that any form > of MageSight or Healing can *see* things as small as viruses. Creating > or manipulating something that small is vastly different from creating or > manipulating something large enough to look at. Finally, wouldn't it be Actually, I think we have to assume that MageSight and Healing can see on that level. I mean Urtho was definitely doing genetic manipulation, as was Mornelithe. And Urtho doesn't strike me as the type (although I cannot say the same about Mornelithe) who would be performing experiments of trial and error on living creatures, just in the hopes of getting it right once. Also, if Mornelithe was making changes to himself and his daughter (what *is* her name again?) on a subcellular/genetic basis (and he had to be doing this, or the effects would not have persisted as new cells were generated and replaced old ones), he would have had to be operating on a much finer level than would be required for even viral pathology. Anyway, it is just a thought. Dealing with life-forms is more than a gross shifting of matter. If the changes are to be permanent (barring further magical intervention), it has to affect the genetic level. Kenneth Allen Hyde | No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife Univ. of Delaware | between the shoulder blades will seriously Dept. of Linguistics | cramp his style -- Old Jhereg proverb kenny-+AT+-strauss.udel.edu | A mind is a terrible toy to waste! -- Me ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 10:41:27 EST From: "Starhawk" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: HIV and AIDS in Valdemar Message-ID: >> I always thought Randale died of a disease resembling AIDS too. >> Especially as it, along with child abuse, seems to be one of the >> issues Misty likes to address in her books. (Remember Lenny in the >> Di Tregarde books?) >> > >Unlikely, I suspect - Doesn't AIDS leave you open to all sorts of secondary >illnesses, which I don't recollect seeing Randale suffering from. There >are a lot of wasting diseases/conditions around, and my bet would be on >something hereditary - there's a quote in storm rising from a surgeon, >taliking about healers - something about "Healers restore the body to its >natural state, which is why only [surgeons] can do anything for congenital >defects" - that would tend to suggest that Randales problem is likely to be >genetic in origin. I tend to rate the magical attack theory as fairly >unlikely, too - There were enough mages around to check for that, and it >seems likely they'd have checked - so I'd rate it "possible but unlikely". Actually, secondary diseases is another reason I think Misty did some literary fiddling with the disease, as I had stated in the next paragraph. And note that I said a disease *resembling* AIDS, not necessarily the actual, clinically defined disease. And if it was genetic, why then did Elspeth the Peacemaker (Randale's grandmother) live to a ripe old age? And there's no mention of his mother having it. Granted, Randale's father died by accident, but it's probable he was in his mid fifties before he took that header down the stiars; if it was genetic, it would certainly have shown up before hand, especially given Shavri's remark that Randale wouldn't live to see 40. I'll agree that the magical attack theory is unlikely, though. Not that Misty doesn't encourage it, but sometimes we have a tendency to see Ma'ar/Leareth/Falconsbane lurking in the shadows when he isn't really there. Then again, just because you're paranoid, doesn't mean that someone isn't out to get you. ;) Zhai'helleva-- Lyn Lyn Belzer * P.O. Box 234 St. Bonaventure, NY 14778 * 716/379-3034 ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* Don't don't tell me no/I want you to take my hand/Never ever let it go/Even if I make you mad/Darling every bit of love you give/You will get more back/If you believe it...You make me laugh like it's forever/And cry like I have never/You heal my pain.... -Sophie B. Hawkins, "Don't Don't Tell Me No" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 01 Dec 1995 11:16:48 -0500 From: Tammy Harris To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Shavri as MOH Message-ID: <7792D966D78-+AT+-medicine.dmed.iupui.edu> On Dec 1 (oh, my god, December already?!), Heather wrote: > If she had been Chosen, even without a real marriage to > Randale, her consort status would put her in a position to make a possible > bid for the throne. (While I *know* that she didn't want it, what is to > stop power-hungry nobles who think she would be biddable from trying to put > her on the throne?) Are you sure about this? IIRC, Shavri was *not* his consort, simply his lifebonded. I believe that 'consort' implies a legal tie, not an emotional/spiritual one. This is also the reason Jisa was not in line for the throne, until she married the heir. I seem to recall a conversation Shavri had with Vanyel, in which she said that one reason she wouldn't marry Randale was because she didn't want Jisa railroaded into the position of heir. (No quote available--you know the drill, me-+AT+-work...) Happy Friday! Tammy "It's time to ask yourself what you believe" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 12:19:33 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine Osborne To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Shavri and Companions (marriage!) Message-ID: On Fri, 1 Dec 1995, Heather Mina wrote: > a feeling that Treven and Jisa wanted the same public acceptance of their > commitment to each other. And that's really it, isn't it? I mean, why do people bother to get married today, with domestic partner benefits popping up? Why do gay people bother to fight for the right to marry? It's something about making your vows to each other where anyone can see you, where, theoretically, the whole world will understand your love and commitment to each other. I\/ Catherine Osborne "After great pain, I\/ Sundancer a formal feeling comes." I cosborne-+AT+-sidwell.edu --Emily Dickinson I http://www.sidwell.edu/~cosborne/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 13:46:13 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine Osborne To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: HIV and AIDS in Valdemar Message-ID: On Fri, 1 Dec 1995, Starhawk wrote: > And if it was genetic, why then did Elspeth the Peacemaker (Randale's > grandmother) live to a ripe old age? And there's no mention of his > mother having it. Granted, Randale's father died by accident, but A) Randale's father was "pushed" by Leareth, who was busily eliminating Herald-Mages, of which Randale was not one. But that doesn't mean L. didn't have an interest in R.'s death; after all, with the monarch dead, treaties would need renegotiating, etc., and there's generally some kind of "transition" period when the kingdom would be weaker than usual. L. couldn't know that R. would hang on until after his own (hopefully very painful) death. B) On heredity: it only says that they *fear* it is hered. and they will be facing the same situation in another ten years when Treven is in his mid-twenties (when Randale began to show signs.) It never actually states that it is hereditary, and I'd tend to guess not, since it is never mentioned in *any* other royal or semi-royal person. I\/ Catherine Osborne "After great pain, I\/ Sundancer a formal feeling comes." I cosborne-+AT+-sidwell.edu --Emily Dickinson I http://www.sidwell.edu/~cosborne/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 13:50:59 -0500 (EST) From: Rosario Holsen-Baker To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Randale's illness Message-ID: Absolut Flaming wrote: > Jenneke wrote: > > before the discovery of viruses. Also, we have no evidence that any form > > of MageSight or Healing can *see* things as small as viruses. Creating > > or manipulating something that small is vastly different from creating or > > manipulating something large enough to look at. Finally, wouldn't it be > > Actually, I think we have to assume that MageSight and Healing can see on > that level. I mean Urtho was definitely doing genetic manipulation, as > was Mornelithe. And Urtho doesn't strike me as the type (although I > cannot say the same about Mornelithe) who would be performing experiments > of trial and error on living creatures, just in the hopes of getting it > right once. Also, if Mornelithe was making changes to himself and his > daughter (what *is* her name again?) on a subcellular/genetic basis (and > he had to be doing this, or the effects would not have persisted as new > cells were generated and replaced old ones), he would have had to be > operating on a much finer level than would be required for even viral > pathology. Thank you! This is exactly the evidence I was looking for about cell-level tampering. Actually, this brings up another point. If it wasn't some sort of virus, but it was Leareth tampering with Randale, perhaps he changed Randale's genetic structure for some sort of disorder. If he gave Randale some sort of genetic disorder by teke tampering, that would be why the Healers can't pinpoint/fix it, since by that time it would be Randale's natural state. Re Seeing Leareth behind every bush (questioned by Starhawk): I think Leareth is the most likely candidate for killing Ran by tampering with him because: a) It was already established that he killed Herald-Mages by triggering accidents from far away, and had been doing so for a long time b) Ran's sudden unexplained illness is just a bit too convenient for my comfort c) Leareth was the only villain with motive and opportunity to do that sort of thing. *I* see Leareth behind every bush in MPrice and the carried-over stuff from MPawn and MPromise because he is the only villain to survive to MPrice. I would have said it was the Mavelans or Krebain, except a) they don't survive and b) they don't seem to have the expertise (well, the Mavelans don't, Krebain might). I'm not paranoid! Really! Wait, you want me to think I'm paranoid! You're all against me! They're watching me! Aaauugh! :) |--------------------------------<>------------------------------| | Three rings for the elven kings under the sky | | Seven for the dwarves in their halls of stone | | Nine for the mortal men, doomed to die | | One for the dark lord on his dark throne.... | |---------------------http://www.sidwell.edu/~rholsen--------------------| ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 13:53:39 -0500 (EST) From: Rosario Holsen-Baker To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: hmmm. Message-ID: On Fri, 1 Dec 1995, Catherine Osborne wrote: > speaking of power-hungry nobles... We see a lot more of them in the > Arrows books than pretty much anywhere else in Velgarth. Seems like even > in the "contemporary" (Storms) council meetings, its mostly our old > favorites who talk, with an occasional aside from a dairy farmer or > something ;) There aren't any Lord Orthallen types, or the lot of > relatives manuevering to get either Jeri or Kris declared Heir when > Elspeth hasn't been chosen yet. Yes there are! Yes there are! Evan and Wester(sp?) Leshara! The ones who were involved in a manipulative power struggle with 'Lendel's people! There wasn't much evidence of it, but I'd say they were pretty power hungry, if they hired Krebain to take out Staven! > BTW, Ma'ar had another incarnation as a (mad) Shin'a'in who destroyed > half the Cat Clan (courtesy of an aside in SR) > I wonder which name that incarnation goes with... |--------------------------------<>------------------------------| | Three rings for the elven kings under the sky | | Seven for the dwarves in their halls of stone | | Nine for the mortal men, doomed to die | | One for the dark lord on his dark throne.... | |---------------------http://www.sidwell.edu/~rholsen--------------------| ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 13:56:23 -0500 (EST) From: Jennifer Broekman To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: HIV and AIDS in Valdemar Message-ID: On Fri, 1 Dec 1995, Starhawk wrote: > And if it was genetic, why then did Elspeth the Peacemaker (Randale's > grandmother) live to a ripe old age? And there's no mention of his > mother having it. Granted, Randale's father died by accident, but > it's probable he was in his mid fifties before he took that header > down the stiars; if it was genetic, it would certainly have shown up > before hand, especially given Shavri's remark that Randale wouldn't > live to see 40. It could be X-linked, in which case women would be highly unlikely to show it (especially since it causes sterility in males). It could be multi-factorial, in which case Randale just had a *lot* of bad luck. It could be multi-factorial and fatal (at the early miscarriage level) in combinations other than the one Randale inherited (ie., if you have all the bits, you die at a few days after conception unless you're *very* lucky). It could be X-linked and fatal (at the early miscarriage level) in the double dose, in which case women have *no* chance of expressing the condition. Just because something is genetic doesn't mean it has to show up in every generation... Personally, I'd vote for multi-factorial and usually fatal at the early miscarriage level, because the royal family tree is really sparse at the time: Randale has no siblings and no (royal) first cousins. Treven is at least a second cousin, if not farther out. (Note that if it's X-linked, it comes from Randale's *mother's* family, which is not the royal family and which we *never* hear anything about.) -jenneke jsb-+AT+-phantom.com new .sig in development ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 14:01:16 -0500 (EST) From: Jennifer Broekman To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Randale's illness Message-ID: On Fri, 1 Dec 1995, Heather Mina wrote: > >On Thu, 30 Nov 1995, Sunfalcon wrote: > >> of Blood Mages and tapped into large nodes, he could conceivably pinpoint > >> targets in Valdemar and literally mess with their minds (by popping small > >> blood vessels in the brain, etc.) and impair their judgement (or balance, > >> with Kilchas and Davri) at critical moments. > And jenneke replied... > >Ah, but that would show up in an autopsy. Far better to just use > >Fetching or magic and simply push them... > Autopsy? Are we talking about the same Valdemar? I just don't see the > Circle carving up a dead Herald's brain and noticing popped blood vessels. Yes, we are. While the Circle may not carve up a dead Herald's brain, they *do* ask Healer's to determine cause of death, and popped blood vessels in the brain show up as *stroke*, not heart attack or broken neck, which is what the Healers and Vanyel determined Kilchas died of. -jenneke jsb-+AT+-phantom.com new .sig in development ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Dec 95 14:07:44 GMT+0000 From: Heather Mina To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Shavri as MOH Message-ID: <9512011909.AA23671-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk> Tammy writes: >Are you sure about this? IIRC, Shavri was *not* his consort, simply >his lifebonded. I believe that 'consort' implies a legal tie, not an >emotional/spiritual one. This is also the reason Jisa was not in line for the >throne, until she married the heir. I seem to recall a conversation >Shavri had with Vanyel, in which she said that one reason she >wouldn't marry Randale was because she didn't want Jisa railroaded >into the position of heir. (No quote available--you know the drill, >me-+AT+-work...) Often "consort" is taken to mean someone the monarch is in a relationship with, but not married to. Now in Valdemar, the monarch can marry somebody, but if they are not Chosen, they are considered a consort rather than a ruler. I agree about Shavri not wanting to marry Randale to keep Jisa out of the succession. My point was that if Shavri was *not* the MOH, Randale would still have needed her by his side to keep him as healthy as possible. About the only way he could have easily accomplished this would be to make her his consort so that she could be with him constantle. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~ Friendship is what makes you think almost as much ~ ~ for someone else as you do for yourself. ~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Heather Mina ..... hlmina-+AT+-vwc.edu ..... heamin-+AT+-sunshine.vab.unisysgsg.com ------------------------------ End of MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 256 *********************************