MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 268 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re: Enya by Amy Mason 2) Re: Randale's illness by AlyxGMacK-+AT+-aol.com 3) Re: gods on velgarth by mealink-+AT+-syd.au.swissbank.com (Kerry Mealing) 4) Re: MERCEDES-LACKEY digest 267 by Coralsong-+AT+-aol.com 5) Re: Casting characrers... by Catherine A Murdoch 6) Re: Randale's illness by JR9332-+AT+-cub.uca.edu 7) Re: Randale's illness by mealink-+AT+-syd.au.swissbank.com (Kerry Mealing) 8) Re: holidays/reviews by jc-+AT+-crosfield.co.uk (Jerry Cullingford) 9) Re: gods on velgarth by "Sanna Koulu" 10) Re: Enya by Wallace-+AT+-online.knoxnews.com 11) gods on velgarth by Heather Mina 12) Re: Randale's illness by JR9332-+AT+-cub.uca.edu 13) Re: gods on velgarth by Absolut Flaming 14) Re: Randale's illness by JR9332-+AT+-cub.uca.edu 15) Re: gods on velgarth by Catherine Osborne 16) Just a side note... by "Starhawk" 17) Re: gods on velgarth by Mat Timmerman 18) Re: Enya by Amy Mason 19) Re: Enya by Mat Timmerman 20) Re: Just a side note... by Adrienne York 21) Re: Di Tregarde (new thread) by gjuka-+AT+-cnw.com (Gjuka) 22) Re: Burning water, was: gods on velgarth by mealink-+AT+-syd.au.swissbank.com (Kerry Mealing) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 11 Dec 1995 16:32:44 -0800 (PST) From: Amy Mason To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Enya Message-ID: On Mon, 11 Dec 1995, Adrienne York wrote: > > > Hi, I'm sorry if this is a bit off topic, but does anybody on this list > > > like Enya? > > I bought it too I like Pax dorum have you seen the music video of anywhere > > is? > I just wanted to say I like Enya but I haven't seen nor heard _The Memory > of Trees_. Well, I haven't seen the video, don't even have access to a tv in my dorm room, but to everyone out there....buy it...buy it...(little sublimal messages) :) Amy :) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Dec 1995 19:43:47 -0500 From: AlyxGMacK-+AT+-aol.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Randale's illness Message-ID: <951211194259_70254176-+AT+-emout06.mail.aol.com> Not at all. :;shaking my head:: I think Cystic Fibrosis is the best description of a real-life illness that it *COULD* have been and your reasoning is very sound, Ali. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Dec 95 11:47:34 EST From: mealink-+AT+-syd.au.swissbank.com (Kerry Mealing) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: gods on velgarth Message-ID: <9512120047.AA05901-+AT+-syd.au.swissbank.com> Stacey writes: > Kerry writes: > > YMMV (Your mileage may vary) but that doesn't work for me. When Need talks > > about the god twins of her time, I seem to recall her mentioning that they > > may not be recognized anymore, but there was no hint of them not being > > gods or not existing. > > > > I also noticed that when I went back and read Need's soliloquy > that one of the twins from both sets name closely resembled Kal'enal > (Kalanel, or whatever you want to believe). I don't have the text > with me at the moment, but I know it's in Winds of Fate when Elspeth > and Skif get to Kata'shin'a'in that she relates her story. Any > comments? I thought so at first, but have since changed my mind to 'possible, but unlikely'. Jenneke I believe posted a very good summary of the whole god situation in response to a post of mine a couple of months ago. It covered the twins, Aster, Lady Windborn and the rest. I saved it to keep myself from airing my ignorance later, but it's at home at the moment. (And I'd want to mail Jenn asking for permission to repost). I have a vague memory that this list is archived (or perhaps I'm mixing it up with another list) - if so, then the whole discussion about it should be there.. (it around September I think). Cheers, Kerry. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Dec 1995 22:44:09 -0500 From: Coralsong-+AT+-aol.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: MERCEDES-LACKEY digest 267 Message-ID: <951211224328_70455129-+AT+-emout04.mail.aol.com> i hope this doesn't get posted, but I'm going back to school shortly and i need to unsubscribe from this list, with sadness....could whoever gets this reply forward the instructions to do so? unfortunately, AOL (or I) doesn't seem to be able to save mail for more than, say, three or five days.... thanks in advance, Coralsong aka Kelly Rush ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Nov 1995 16:16:47 +1100 (EST) From: Catherine A Murdoch To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Casting characrers... Message-ID: Daniel Day Lewis (swoon, swoon) for Vanyel? Yes, definitely. Daniel Day Lewis is, IMO, simply gorgeous. Furthermore, he is a fantastic actor. -- -- Catherine Murdoch | Internet: ulcam-+AT+-dewey.newcastle.edu.au Auchmuty Library | Ph (intl+61+49) 217147 University of Newcastle, AUSTRALIA | Fax (intl+61+49) 215833 "If man could be crossed with a cat, it would improve man, but it would deteriorate the cat." - Mark Twain ------------------------------ Date: 11 Dec 95 23:45:36 CST From: JR9332-+AT+-cub.uca.edu To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Randale's illness Message-ID: <1EF98CB29E2-+AT+-cub.uca.edu> > Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 01:16:59 GMT > Reply-to: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk > From: AlyxGMacK-+AT+-aol.com > To: jr9332-+AT+-cub.uca.edu > Subject: Re: Randale's illness > Not at all. :;shaking my head:: I think Cystic Fibrosis is the best > description of a real-life illness that it *COULD* have been and your > reasoning is very sound, Ali. Randale did not have the respritory (sp?) problems assioated with C.F. Pandora > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Dec 95 17:11:15 EST From: mealink-+AT+-syd.au.swissbank.com (Kerry Mealing) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Randale's illness Message-ID: <9512120611.AA08302-+AT+-syd.au.swissbank.com> Pandora wrote: > AlyxGMacK-+AT+-aol.com wrote: > > Not at all. :;shaking my head:: I think Cystic Fibrosis is the best > > description of a real-life illness that it *COULD* have been and your > > reasoning is very sound, Ali. > > Randale did not have the respritory (sp?) problems assioated with C.F. Nooooo.. the first workable theory we've had! Ummm... the healers might have been able to beat the respiratory symptoms associated with C.F.? > Pandora Appropriate name! :) Cheers, Kerry. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 09:52:24 +0000 (GMT) From: jc-+AT+-crosfield.co.uk (Jerry Cullingford) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: holidays/reviews Message-ID: <9512120952.AA00563-+AT+-crosfield.co.uk> >> On Fri, 8 Dec 1995, Melanie Dymond Harper wrote: >> >>> For those of you who will be feeling a little short of things to do over >>> the break, you could always re-read your favourite Lackey book -- or listen >>> to your favourite tape/CD for that matter -- and write a review; I'm sure >>> Jerry, who maintains the review archives, would be pleased of some more to >>> put in them ... >> >> >> Where would you send it to and what format would you like it in?? >> >> Ashke> >> > > Format: check the currently existing ones, but basically plain text. Where to > send them: Jerry, I guess this'll be you? jc-+AT+-selune.demon.co.uk. Yes, that's right :-). Plain text is fine, or if you're comfortable with HTML, just base it on an existing review - most web browsers have a "save as HTML" or "save as source" option. It doesn't have to be a "full" review either - brief comments are fine, too, and I can (and would love to) add more points of view to the existing ones as well. -Jerry -- _|_ / | Jerry Cullingford jc-+AT+-crosfield.co.uk (Work) \_|_ jc-+AT+-selune.demon.co.uk (Home) \__/ Hemel Hempstead, UK jerry-+AT+-shell.portal.com (alternate) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 13:45:25 EET From: "Sanna Koulu" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: gods on velgarth Message-ID: <25142AD7EDF-+AT+-otdk.helsinki.fi> Heather wrote: > Seanna writes: > >I think the "gods" on Velgarth aren't this. Read: I don't think they > >created that world. As in Pratchett's Small Gods, I think that these > >beings were formed/personified/something by collective belief > >(which is what the demon in Oathbound indicates. Also the same world- > >view as in Blood Lines by Huff), because humans have a need for > >personified divinities/endless beings. > > My problem with this is that you are applying your own assumptions to > Misty's texts. In Velgarth, there is a very specific definition of what > exactly a "god" is. Of course I'm applying my own assumptions - who else's? :) I know that Misty defines "god" as just your generic superhuman being, but I think that definition is faulty and requires redefining. It's not really a question of how you define "god" anyway; more a question of whether there _are_ gods (as in my definition) on Velgarth. > And, when it all comes down to it, whether or not an alleged deity created > the world (or is powerful enough to), the deity is not a deity unless s/he > has worshippers. No worshippers, no god. End of story. If all the > believers in Kal'enel were instantly vaporized (heaven forbid nukes > develop on Velgarth), then she really is no longer a goddess, but a > spiritual being who may or may not continue to exist. I disagree here. Being worshipped is by no means necessary to a god, I'd say. Hermes and Aphrodite are just as much gods now as in ancient times, but I don't think they have many worshippers? > <<< snippped theory about there only being one god(dess) or pair of them >>> Actually, it's a question of whether there's one god(dess), two or _more_. Really, why not assume a thousand gods? > Now, the assertions of miracles need to be taken with a grain of salt, > considering that magic is prevalent in Velgarth. And, precisely, what is > the difference betwen magic and a miracle? (Well, a miracle is performed by > a deity or special avatar of the deity (companion, hawk, priest, whatever), > and magic is performed by anybody off the street. That's how I usually > think about it). Indeed, if a mage was worshipped as a god, by your definition that mage would be a god. No? You specified a spirit: well, on Velgarth humans (other sentients) obviously have souls. Worshipping a human is by no means unusual: take the Church of Elvis! And a mage would transcend physical world, and could perform miracles. I think we need to assume some crucial trait that separates gods from mortals/demons/angels/whatever. I don't think worship is it, but you're saying timelessness (preceding the world) isn't the qualification of god, either. Ideas, anyone? > However, Misty has created several deities, and has told us that some types > of beings can achieve godhood. There is much textual evidence of this, and > absolutely no textual evidence to support your assertion that there are no > gods on Velgarth. Excuse me, but you're misunderstanding my definitions. I never claimed Kal'enel etc didn't exist. Obviously they do, even though they may be created by their worshipers' collective imagination. I was claiming there's no _proof_ (an epistemological statement, not an onthological one. Absence of proof isn't proof of absence) that gods (in the sense I defined the word) exist on Velgarth. Btw, has Misty ever explained to us anything of where the "gods" came from? Or who/what created Velgarth? Is it created, anyway? > >2) I think that to say a god is "male" or "female" is silly, to say > >the least. Maleness/femaleness are physical attributes. A god (if > >they exist :) has never (rarely?) had a body, so to make a biological > >statement about them isn't really reasonable. One might worship > >Godhead as male or female, but that doesn't really say anything about > >the being/force/whatever. Transcendental beings by definition > >transcend humanity, so how could we understand them? > > True. But what purpose does a deity serve, if s/he does not try to make > some part of him/her accessible to humanity? For instance, Kal'enel is only > one aspect of the Shina'in goddess, and really the only one that Tarma can > relate to. So even though a deity should completely transcend humanity, > s/he will not be worshipped if s/he can not offer some sort of manifestation > to humans. Even though I can wrap my mind around the concept of > genderlessness, I don't think I could really handle worshipping a truly > genderless deity. Again, I wasn't saying deities should be worshipped as genderless. I said that even though humans prefer to give a face, and usually a sex, to their god, that doesn't mean that the god (if it exists) is _intrinsically_ male or female or dark-haired or blue-eyed or whatever. > While I can accept that these are your views on the real world, I cannot > accept them as valid opinions about the fictional world of Velgarth > unless you offer textual support for them. I think Misty has been > quite clear in her intentions about deities (if a bit fuzzy about > the true nature of them - as rightfully she should be, since deities > are *far* beyond us mere mortals), and we must accept her > presentations when we discuss her novels. Agreed, we must accept Misty's word when discussing her novels as novels. Then, we are just talking about literary devices. But the whole point of literature (well, according to some people like Tolkien) is to create a secondary world, as realistic as possible, even while it contains magic or miracles. And when we are discussing the _internal_ workings and perceptions of/in that world, I think we must suspend disbelief and ignore for a while the author's superior voice - accept that world as real, as it were. (For example: if an author tells us that there are dragons on her world, which have pink wings and plaid skin, and which whistle Mozart's symphonies, do we just accept that yes, that's the way it is? Or do we search for an explanation - or get a headache from trying to imagine the things and go read something else?) -Seanna the agnostic ------------------------------ Date: 12 Dec 1995 07:58:58 EDT From: Wallace-+AT+-online.knoxnews.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Enya Message-ID: <9512121300.AA07952-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk> YESSSSSS! A new CD? Where?When? OK, calm down. girl. Yes, I like Enya a lot. My daughter introduced her music to me and I've been hooked ever since! I plan to go out looking this very day to find it! By the way, to all, I called Firebird yesterday and ordered Shadow Stalker (which is out of stock and won't be in until mid-January, darn, darn, darn!) and the new Nightnoise CD also. Candace ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Dec 95 10:13:49 GMT+0000 From: Heather Mina To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: gods on velgarth Message-ID: <9512121518.AA10112-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk> Kerry writes: >Let me preface this with: No offence meant, it's all my opinion only. >Ok? If I'm absolutely, completely, totally wrong, have pity on the poor >misguided guy and be nice to him.. :) Certainly, and the same goes for me as well. Religion can be a tough subject to discuss, because our religious beliefs tend to be our most closely guarded fundamental ideas about the world. I wrote: >> And, when it all comes down to it, whether or not an alleged deity created >> the world (or is powerful enough to), the deity is not a deity unless s/he >> has worshippers. No worshippers, no god. End of story. If all the >> believers in Kal'enal ewre instantly vaporized (heaven forbid nukes develop >> on Velgarth), then she really is no longer a goddess, but a spiritual being >> who may or may not continue to exist. >Kerry replied: >YMMV (Your mileage may vary) but that doesn't work for me. When Need talks >about the god twins of her time, I seem to recall her mentioning that they >may not be recognized anymore, but there was no hint of them not being >gods or not existing. I agree. Again, I think the god twins probably do still exist in some reduced state. Since they do not have any worshippers, they do not have the power to perform any supernatural acts (which is the primary way by which a god proves himself to be a god). But if somebody dusted off an old history book (assuming one still existed) and decided that he liked the idea of the twin gods and started a sect to worship them, they would increase in power again. >Tarma & Kethry got the demon (twice) before he could attain actual godhood >remember.. IMO, once you're there, you're there, you can't fall back down >(at least not by people just nuking your worshippers). Otherwise, Kalanel >and any other gods who were threatened with the wholesale destruction of >their worshippers would likely have taken a far more direct hand in the >Mage Wars. Well, Kethry does say that you can wipe out a god, Oathbound, p. 169: If it is a god - a real god - well, all gods have their enemies; it's simply a matter of finding the sworn enemy, locating a nest of his clerics, and bringing them all together. This implies that the priests of one god (presumably acting with the god's knowledge or permission, and as an extension of the powers of the god) can band together and take down an enemy god. My personal interpretation, though, is not quite this literal. I think that clerics a god can reduce the powers of an enemy god, to the point where his worshippers no longer worship him. With that power base gone, it is pretty difficult for the enemy god to recover. He must once again build up a following of worshippers so that he has enough power to be a god once again. Again, gods exist outside the mortal realm, and are of varying abilities and powers. My question is - where does Zeus live now? >Basically I guess, sweeping arguments aside, I just can't agree with the >flat contention that a God is defined by his/her/its worshippers. Now, the Jewish God and the Christian God seem to be completely different deities, for all that they are supposed to be the same guy. The only difference is that the Jewish do not believe that Jesus was the son of God, that they are still waiting for the Savior. But the definitions by both sects are radically different. Heck, the Southern Baptist God and the Catholic God are pretty radically different, too. This is not to say that the powers and abilities of a god are defined by his worshippers. I subscribe to the theory that a god's *power* (as in energy, ability to continue existing, to perform actions which may or may not be "supernatural") comes from his worshippers. A god with millions of (true and sincere) worshippers would be extremely powerful deity, while one with 20 would still have some growing to do. >(But hey, I'm a non-practicing catholic so a lot of my personal beliefs >are hang-overs from that). Yeah, well, I know a lot of those. And hey - non-practicing Episcopalian is not far from it! Later! Heather <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> < The time has come, the walrus said > < to talk of many things, > < Of shoes and ships and sealing wax, > < of cabbages and kings. > < --- Lewis Carroll > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Heather L. Mina hlmina-+AT+-vwc.edu heamin-+AT+-sunshine.vab.unisysgsg.com ------------------------------ Date: 12 Dec 95 09:24:42 CST From: JR9332-+AT+-cub.uca.edu To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Randale's illness Message-ID: <1F93F5D7165-+AT+-cub.uca.edu> > Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 08:49:20 GMT > Reply-to: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk > From: mealink-+AT+-syd.au.swissbank.com (Kerry Mealing) > To: jr9332-+AT+-cub.uca.edu > Subject: Re: Randale's illness > > Pandora wrote: > > AlyxGMacK-+AT+-aol.com wrote: > > > Not at all. :;shaking my head:: I think Cystic Fibrosis is the best > > > description of a real-life illness that it *COULD* have been and your > > > reasoning is very sound, Ali. > > > > Randale did not have the respritory (sp?) problems assioated with C.F. > > Nooooo.. the first workable theory we've had! > Ummm... the healers might have been able to beat the respiratory symptoms > associated with C.F.? > > > Pandora > > Appropriate name! :) > > Cheers, > Kerry. Correct me if I am wrong but dosen't C.F. involve a large build up of fluid in the lungs? I don't think a healer would be able to help that. *get ready for some scientific explanation* C.F. is caused by a genetic mutation where on a cellular level you are missing a vital intergral membrane protein which eliminates the Chlorine anion channel. Poeple with C.F. are almost always sterile and have an average life span of 30 years. I hope this helps but somehow I doubt it. : ) Pandora ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 10:37:21 -0500 (EST) From: Absolut Flaming To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: gods on velgarth Message-ID: On Tue, 12 Dec 1995, Sanna Koulu wrote: > Of course I'm applying my own assumptions - who else's? :) > I know that Misty defines "god" as just your generic superhuman > being, but I think that definition is faulty and requires > redefining. > It's not really a question of how you define "god" anyway; more a > question of whether there _are_ gods (as in my definition) on > Velgarth. No. The point is that the existence of gods on Velgarth is *not* in question. Misty has stated that they are there, and her word on what state of affairs pertains in that world is final. (see below for my comments on Secondary Worlds.) > I disagree here. Being worshipped is by no means necessary to a god, > I'd say. Hermes and Aphrodite are just as much gods now as in ancient > times, but I don't think they have many worshippers? If you concede that Hermes and Aphrodite were gods, then you cannot maintain your definition of "creator of the world" or even "supreme being." Hermes and Aphrodite did not create the world. They did not even preexist creation. Creation theory in the greek mythos is a little sticky, but basically the assumption seems to be that the world was not created. Gaia (the world) and Uranus (the heavens) pre-exist the creation of other sentients (including the Titans, Giants, and Gods), but where those two came from is open to debate. I believe one theory is that they just sort of sprang from Chaos, so there is a sense in which even they did not pre-exist creation. Actually, when you look cross-culturally, there are actually very few creator gods, although there are huge bunchies of other kinds of gods. Do we want to say that Shiva is not a god simply because he is not the creator? Or that Ameterasu Omi Kami (The goddess that is the heart of Shinto) is not a goddess, because she did not create the world? > Excuse me, but you're misunderstanding my definitions. I never > claimed Kal'enel etc didn't exist. Obviously they do, even though > they may be created by their worshipers' collective imagination. I > was claiming there's no _proof_ (an epistemological statement, not an > onthological one. Absence of proof isn't proof of absence) that gods > (in the sense I defined the word) exist on Velgarth. They may not exist in the sense of your term "god," but that just means that your term is incorrectly defined for the context. Kal'enel is a Goddess. That is not open to question. It has been established by the authorial voice. Now it may be the case that the definition of "god" is different in Velgarth than the definition you use in the actual world, but that is a whole other help line. =) > Again, I wasn't saying deities should be worshipped as genderless. I > said that even though humans prefer to give a face, and usually a > sex, to their god, that doesn't mean that the god (if it exists) is > _intrinsically_ male or female or dark-haired or blue-eyed or > whatever. It also doesn't mean that they are intrinsically non-sexed. The opposite of prescription (they have to have gender) is not necessarily proscription (they have to not have gender). It could be optional (they do not have to have--but may have--gender). > Agreed, we must accept Misty's word when discussing her novels as > novels. Then, we are just talking about literary devices. But the > whole point of literature (well, according to some people like > Tolkien) is to create a secondary world, as realistic as possible, > even while it contains magic or miracles. And when we are discussing > the _internal_ workings and perceptions of/in that world, I think we > must suspend disbelief and ignore for a while the author's superior > voice - accept that world as real, as it were. I think that you are misinterpreting Tolkien's theory of Secondary Worlds here. He never maintained that the autorial creation of a Secondary World had to be consistent with the actual or, even, Primary worlds. That is, in fact, exactly what defines the Secondary World. It is the aspects of the setting in a novel that are not part of, and could not be part of, the actual world. These aspects are established by the authorial voice and become part of the "state of affairs" in the novel. The task of the author is not to create an explanation of how these 2nd World phenomena work, nor is it the author's task to make the 2nd World things logical. The task of the author is to integrate the 2nd World with the Primary World, using narrative strategies and devices, in such a way that the reader can get past the glaring logical problems and irreality of the situation. Admittedly, one of the best ways for integrating a 2nd World thing into the Primary World is to create some explanation for it, but even there, the explanation usually has to involve some arbitrary stipulation about a different state of affairs that obtains in the novel's setting. For example, Fonstad points out that Tolkien's Middle Earth geography involves some features that simply would not exist in the same way in the actual world. She can simply state that these are 2nd World impositions of the author and must be accepted. As a trained geographer, she *knows* that there is not logical or actual explanation for these features. As reader, she has to accept them and work with them. > (For example: if an author tells us that there are dragons on her > world, which have pink wings and plaid skin, and which whistle > Mozart's symphonies, do we just accept that yes, that's the way it > is? Or do we search for an explanation - or get a headache from trying > to imagine the things and go read something else?) A good author would use novelistic narrative strategies to establish that such a creature does exist in the setting of the novel. S/he would not attempt to give a logical explanation for why a draconian in another world happens to know and love "Eine Kleine NachtMusik." Such an explanation does not exist. So in answer to your question, yes, you do just accept that that's the way it is. Anyway, that's my story and I'm sticking to it! Hope I didn't bore anyone too badly. All opinions expressed are mine unless otherwise attributed. Kenny (who is currently editing a paper on Secondary World theory and Narrative Strategy in the hopes of getting it published.) Kenneth Allen Hyde | No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife Univ. of Delaware | between the shoulder blades will seriously Dept. of Linguistics | cramp his style -- Old Jhereg proverb kenny-+AT+-strauss.udel.edu | A mind is a terrible toy to waste! -- Me ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 09:47:26 CST From: JR9332-+AT+-cub.uca.edu To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Randale's illness Message-ID: <1F9A0A1435E-+AT+-cub.uca.edu> Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 08:49:20 GMT Reply-to: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk From: mealink-+AT+-syd.au.swissbank.com (Kerry Mealing) To: jr9332-+AT+-cub.uca.edu Subject: Re: Randale's illness Ok here goes...I do not think Randale's illness was C.F. he did not show the symptoms. Here is an indepth look at C.F. Cystic fibrosis is the most common autosomal recessive disorder in white children. About 1 of every 20 persons in the U.S. is a heterozygous carrier of the gene for C.F., which is characterized by abnormal secretions in the body. The most severe effect of this disorder is on the respiratory system, which produces abnormally viscous mucus. The cilia that line the broncia cannot easily remove the mucus, and it thus becomes a culture medium for dangerous bacteria. These bacteria or their toxins attack the surrounding tissues, leading to recurring pneumonia and other complications. The heavy mucus also occurs elsewhere in the body causing digestive difficulties and other effects. Antibiotics are used to control bacterial infections, and daily physical therapy is required to clear mucus from the respiratory system. Without such treatment, death would occur in infancy. With treatment, about 50% of affected persons live into their 20s, only to die in what should have been the prime of life, having spent the equivalent of about 4 years in the hospital. -Pandora ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 11:29:10 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine Osborne To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: gods on velgarth Message-ID: On Tue, 12 Dec 1995, Heather Mina wrote: > Well, Kethry does say that you can wipe out a god, Oathbound, p. 169: > If it is a god - a real god - well, all gods have their > enemies; it's simply a matter of finding the sworn enemy, > locating a nest of his clerics, and bringing them all > together. > This implies that the priests of one god (presumably acting with the god's > knowledge or permission, and as an extension of the powers of the god) can > band together and take down an enemy god. To change universes... In Burning Water, doesn't Di pretty much take out a god? > Now, the Jewish God and the Christian God seem to be completely different > deities, for all that they are supposed to be the same guy. The only > difference is that the Jewish do not believe that Jesus was the son of God, > that they are still waiting for the Savior. But the definitions by both > sects are radically different. Heck, the Southern Baptist God and the > Catholic God are pretty radically different, too. Well, IMHO, a lot of the reason the Jewish God/Xian God/Catholic/S.B. Gods are so different is that the Bible is so contradictory that each leader (and individual) must pick the message they like best about the powers/self-willed limits/etc. of God from several conflicting statements. But technically, its the same God. This goes for Muslims too. So why have they been slaughtering each other for centuries? I'm often told when I quote the Bible on tolerance to fundies that I'm using only "selected passages" that serve my dark and sinister purposes and that I should read the whole thing and stop taking things out of context. I respond in kind, because so are they. We both have a point; it's just what we each believe is the quote-unquote right passage, the one closest to what a God they believe in and I used to would have meant. I\/ Catherine Osborne "After great pain, I\/ Sundancer a formal feeling comes." I cosborne-+AT+-sidwell.edu --Emily Dickinson I http://www.sidwell.edu/~cosborne/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 13:05:17 EST From: "Starhawk" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Just a side note... Message-ID: Catherine Osborne wrote: >To change universes... In Burning Water, doesn't Di pretty much take out >a god? Uhhh, no. His brother god, speaking through Mark, drives him away. But Burning Water (English translation of the Aztec god's name, which I do not remember. Grrr. Old age is really quite annoying. :) is not destroyed. That's what's disquieting about the end of the book: Burning Water could very well come back, especially since his four handmaidens are still wandering about. Also, IIRC, Di says something like, "No, I couldn't take out a god...I'm not *that* good." Zhai'helleva-- Lyn Lyn Belzer * P.O. Box 234 St. Bonaventure, NY 14778 * 716/379-3034 ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* In spite of all the tears she may cry, this is how she has to live her life. As hard as it may be, she has to find out for herself. -Reba McEntire, _Find out for Herself_ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 14:24:49 -0400 (EDT) From: Mat Timmerman To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: gods on velgarth Message-ID: <01HYQ1E2RUJM94I6BX-+AT+-vaxc.hofstra.edu> From: Catherine Osborne > >On Tue, 12 Dec 1995, Heather Mina wrote: > >> Well, Kethry does say that you can wipe out a god, Oathbound, p. 169: >> If it is a god - a real god - well, all gods have their >> enemies; it's simply a matter of finding the sworn enemy, >> locating a nest of his clerics, and bringing them all >> together. >> This implies that the priests of one god (presumably acting with the god's >> knowledge or permission, and as an extension of the powers of the god) can >> band together and take down an enemy god. > >To change universes... In Burning Water, doesn't Di pretty much take out >a god? Sort of. Didn't she find the sworn enemy, and let him do the real work? And they didn't actually take him out. They just made him give up a crucial sacrifice, and he died later because of it. This is all IIRC, as I've only read Burning Water once, and that was a few months ago. Mat accmjt-+AT+-vaxc.hofstra.edu http://ada.hofstra.edu/~mtimme47/ VAX is the source of all evil. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 12:32:58 -0800 (PST) From: Amy Mason To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Enya Message-ID: On Tue, 12 Dec 1995 Wallace-+AT+-online.knoxnews.com wrote: > By the way, to all, I called Firebird yesterday and ordered Shadow > Stalker (which is out of stock and won't be in until mid-January, darn, > darn, darn!) and the new Nightnoise CD also. I know I feel really stupid, but does anybody have the address for the Firebird Catalogue? Thanks a lot... Amy :) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 16:30:15 -0400 (EDT) From: Mat Timmerman To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Enya Message-ID: <01HYQ5TFCBC294I1XH-+AT+-vaxc.hofstra.edu> From: Amy Mason > >On Tue, 12 Dec 1995 Wallace-+AT+-online.knoxnews.com wrote: > >> By the way, to all, I called Firebird yesterday and ordered Shadow >> Stalker (which is out of stock and won't be in until mid-January, darn, >> darn, darn!) and the new Nightnoise CD also. > >I know I feel really stupid, but does anybody have the address for the >Firebird Catalogue? Thanks a lot... > >Amy :) Well, I don't have it handy, but I have a link to their homepage on mine. The URL for my page is http://ada.hofstra.edu/~mtimme47/ Mat accmjt-+AT+-vaxc.hofstra.edu http://ada.hofstra.edu/~mtimme47/ VAX is the source of all evil. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 17:00:06 -0500 (EST) From: Adrienne York To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Just a side note... Message-ID: On Tue, 12 Dec 1995, Starhawk wrote: > Catherine Osborne wrote: > > >To change universes... In Burning Water, doesn't Di pretty much take out > >a god? > > Uhhh, no. His brother god, speaking through Mark, drives him away. >(snip) > Also, IIRC, Di says something like, "No, I couldn't take out a > god...I'm not *that* good." Which, to me, implies that *somebody* could, just not Di. ;];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];] ;] Adrienne York-Minor ;] ;] "I'd like to believe that, but I'm fresh out of optimism." ;] ;] -Princess Jasmine ;] ;] ayork-+AT+-simons-rock.edu ;] ;];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];];] ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 15:52:11 -0800 From: gjuka-+AT+-cnw.com (Gjuka) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Di Tregarde (new thread) Message-ID: kenny said.... >There were a few problems with _Children of the Night_. Primarily: No >Japanese person of my acquaintance--and I know a lot of them--has ever >heard of a "gaki" as anything but a mischievous child or a benign >spirit, and I could only find one reference in my stuff on Japanese >folklore to a very rare type of "gaki" (the spirit) that was called a >"blood gaki" because it ate blood--NOT fear or souls or what have you. >However, I am willing to allow that this is a minor issue and just go >with the flow. > >kenny > granted, gaki are pretty off the main stream, but i've heard of them in other places. you have to be seriously into folk lore and the occult to run across many referances, but that doesn't mean they arn't there. and as for not many japanese knowing about gaki- well i can't believe how many people i run into who don't know what a selkie or a pooka are either, and that's even western lore! one of the most fun things i know of for people interested in japanese folk lore and creatures is "vampire princess miyu", my favorite japanamation series (only 4 episodes that i know of.) it is absolutely wonderful! -colette gjuka-+AT+-cnw.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Dec 95 11:05:11 EST From: mealink-+AT+-syd.au.swissbank.com (Kerry Mealing) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Burning water, was: gods on velgarth Message-ID: <9512130005.AA15730-+AT+-syd.au.swissbank.com> ** Burning Water spoilers ** Mat T wrote: > Sort of. Didn't she find the sworn enemy, and let him do the real > work? And they didn't actually take him out. They just made him > give up a crucial sacrifice, and he died later because of it. This > is all IIRC, as I've only read Burning Water once, and that was a few > months ago. Is it just me or do other people have a sneaking sympathy for Burning Water also? I mean, he wasn't 'evil' per se though his actions may have appeared so, but rather simply out of his time.. (And before people jump on me for that comment, the Old Testament wasn't exactly pristine either, but a large population of people consider the Christian God to be the epitomy of good). And note that Di tends to underestimate herself.. holding off 4 handmaidens of a God, is no mean feat. Note also that even the other god (dammit, I'm blanking on names bigtime today), didn't destroy or drive off Burning Water - they *negotiated*. BW came off badly because he wasn't up to date with the current status of the world (and hence didn't realize how difficult it would be to find another sacrifice in time for him to re-enter the world via the sacrifice of his avatar). Actually, the way I read it was that (as in the original story) the sacrifice was flawed (because the women were lesbians or at least had not borne children and didn't weave their own clothes). So his avatar died in vain, leaving him without a gateway to the world until he can find another avatar ( which could well take another couple of centuries). Comments? Kerry. ------------------------------ End of MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 268 *********************************