MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 323 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re: men/masculinity by "Sanna Koulu" 2) RE: Makaar (& also Gates) by "Sanna Koulu" 3) re: changing civilizations by "Sanna Koulu" 4) Re: Too Much Misty & Queens Own (long) by "Sanna Koulu" 5) Reincarnation by jc-+AT+-crosfield.co.uk (Jerry Cullingford) 6) Re: (Fwd) Bardic Voices vs Valdemar by "David Ramsden" 7) Re: Larry Dixon's art by Tammy Harris 8) Re: magic as a stabilising factor by jc-+AT+-crosfield.co.uk (Jerry Cullingford) 9) Re: the bells, the bells (esmeralda) by Becky Anne Christensen 10) Re: Just saying Hi and wondering by "Patrick S. Waterlander" 11) Re: re: Eastern Empire (+changing philosophies) by "Patrick S. Waterlander" 12) Re: Cover Art-Winds series by "Patrick S. Waterlander" 13) Re: heralds and justice by "Patrick S. Waterlander" 14) Re: New Thread: Charachters by "Patrick S. Waterlander" 15) Re: (Fwd) Bardic Voices vs Valdemar by CHONNI 16) re: changing civilizations & Urtho reborn by CHONNI 17) Re: Too Much Misty & Queens Own by "Patrick S. Waterlander" 18) Re: Coconuts? by "Patrick S. Waterlander" 19) Re: re: Eastern Empire by "Patrick S. Waterlander" 20) Re: re- myriad subjects by "Patrick S. Waterlander" 21) RE: Makaar (& also Gates) by Ashke 22) Re: magic as a stabilising factor by Todd Kungas ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 12:32:59 EET From: "Sanna Koulu" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: men/masculinity Message-ID: <92F47D666D-+AT+-otdk.helsinki.fi> Esmeralda wrote: > Julie Vaux wrote: > > > Now my idea (danger danger risk of crossposting) of male beauty > > is someone built like brent spiner (NOT data - brent spiner) > > moves beautifully , gymnastic rather than althetic, gentle, > > witty, has a reasonable head of hairshaves and washes regularly > > knows how to use a comb and brush reads a variety of books > > interesting eyes expressive good but simple taste in clothes > > > > What is your ideal of masculine beauty and WHY do you Like OR > > DISlike larry's method of depicting males? > > Hmm, I have no idea who Brent Spiner is Huh? You don't watch Star Trek?!!! Oh, horreur! Anyway, I think Data is cute. Wouldn't know about Brent Spiner, since I don't watch that much tv... (Btw, Spock was cuter. Yes, I'm a sucker for pointy ears... :) So my idea of masculine beauty: Not much taller than I am (Like Vicki Nelson, I hate feeling petite :) though it happens to me more often)... say some 5' 10", tops. Not too muscled. Wiry but strong is good ("now someone like you, dear Stefen", to paraphrase :). If anyone knows of any cute free ballet dancers, long distance runners or martial artists, tell me! (Well actually, I almost have an embarrassment of riches of those, but they are so damn hard to catch .) Not too hairy. Beardless is good. No body hair is better. But a nice hair-do, I think... hmmm. Long hair is nice but far from necessary... Though I think crew-cuts suit women better than men, anyway. > Oh yes, he's gotta be dark - don't go for blondes and blue eyes! Seems to be the only thing we agree on :). I like dark hair. Especially combined with pale skin. And grey eyes. And a white horse (no, wait! That was supposed to be in some other posting :).. But, blondes are OK. As long as they're not tall, tanned and muscular... Oh well. I've babbled enough... I tend to fall in love/lust with intelligent (and not-so-occasionally freaky) people anyway; the looks aren't that important - but I shan't get any further into my weird tastes. Gotta maintain SOME dignity, y'know. :) -Seanna (Whaddya mean, was this supposed to have some Misty content?) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 13:33:38 EET From: "Sanna Koulu" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: RE: Makaar (& also Gates) Message-ID: <93F6CF041A-+AT+-otdk.helsinki.fi> Kerry wrote: > Seanna wrote: > > Kerry wrote: > > [in response to StarWolf's (?) thought experiment with Ma'ar being a > > "good guy"] > > > > > And as I said elsewhere, Ma'ar only cared about people as possessions.. > > > Look at the way Firesong starts reacting in SR and you'll get a glimpse > > > of the way Ma'ar must have thought. > > > > Hmm? Did you mean that Firesong reacts the same way Ma'ar did, and > > possibly for the same reasons? An interesting thought. I thought > > Firesong's insanity (warpedness) just randomly happened to be alike > > Ma'ar's. I'd say the reasons are totally different... Opinions? > > I agree that the original causes were different, in that there were no > mage-storms racking the land when Ma'ar was around, but I suspect that > endrocline (sp?) - gland - imbalances that Firesong experienced may have > been what Ma'ar suffered from. Huh? That's the second (the third?) time today I feel like a stunned ox... Firesong had hormone imbalances??? I thought it was just mental - you know, the warpedness of the land resonating in his Gift channels. That's why I wondered whether Ma'ar possibly had earth sense too - after all, you don't have to be Healing Adept to. (snipped stuff I more or less agree with) > Thinking back, I retract the comment I made about Urtho being a twit for > thinking that if he could sit down with Ma'ar and talk rationally with him, > Ma'ar could be helped back to sanity.. > Urtho was a Sorceror-Adept (and I think, with the emphasis on sorceror) - > if there was anyone who would have been familiar with endrocline / hormone > imbalances and related behaviour, it would have been he. Perhaps there was > a concrete reason for his statement. Does anyone know what Misty means by "sorceror" in Velgarth? After all, in Tregarde books "sorceror" means someone who can't sense the energy flows but has the knowledge and the will to manipulate them (as opposed to a witch, who can see the currents, and who, like, goes with the flow :). Based on this definition it seems unlikely that a sorceror would understand the balances (of body, mind, the land, whatever). -Seanna ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 13:56:07 EET From: "Sanna Koulu" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: re: changing civilizations Message-ID: <9456964540-+AT+-otdk.helsinki.fi> Cindy wrote: > Several people have commented on how little the basic structure of the > Eastern Empire has changed in almost 24 centuries, with some side notes on > how much our own world has changed in the equivalent time. Also Valdemar, > which has a civil structure almost unchanged since its founding, and > certainly unchanged in the 400 year span between Vanyel's time and Talia's. Just btw, it was originally Valdemar which was being discussed. I don't think we know enough about other countries to be able to make educated guesses. > Couple of points here. The first is that the last two millenia on our world > have been very unusual in that change has accelerated. Especially in the > last 400 years. If you take a look at Ancient Egypt you can find a > civilization whose basic structure stayed pretty much the same for a long, > long time. Earlier in the history of mankind you stumble across the > hunter-gatherers, who, for the most part, had no interest in change. So > centuries of constant change are less common than centuries with little > change. True. However, I think the change in our world has accelerated because things started accumulating - the re-invention of the steam-engine (and the printing press a few centuries before) combined with the invention of the private enterprise (and the legal forms that defined it) combined with a large enough a population and efficient enough food production methods etc. etc. In Valdemar some of these changes have already taken place. They had printing presses in Vanyel's time. I think that that should have led to much accelerated development in the last four centuries. (I think of Valdemar as something renaissance-ish, on the brink of industrial revolution, with a lot of medieval-style regalia thrown in). Thus, compare Europe in 1300 and 1800. Also, even if the basic structure of a land stays the same, there should be a lot of more superficial changes, like in fashion, art, crafts etc. > The second possibility is that the presence of active, meddling gods on > Velgarth is what is retarding the forces of change. After all, once a > god/goddess has things the way he/she likes them, why muck with experiments? But, a god(dess) might welcome the chance for her people to get ahead in the world. No? (And how would that god get things arranged his way in the first place?) > Or still another possiblity, that the presence of Magic means that those with > power have a strong interest in preserving the status quo. Why would bringing magic to the equation change anything? -Seanna ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 13:59:18 EET From: "Sanna Koulu" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Too Much Misty & Queens Own (long) Message-ID: <9464A975D7-+AT+-otdk.helsinki.fi> Jerry Cullingford wrote: > Seanna writes: > > > Are you serious?! Juries and appeal courts are internationally > > accepted. The UN declaration of Human Rights requires them. The > > point isn't that it should be easy for the criminal to get loose. The > > point is that the judge might be wrong. Your suggestion of the Herald > > acting as prosecutor, judge and head-man requires that Herald to be > > infallible, totally impersonal (why did you think judges can't judge > > in personal cases?) and _to_be_perceived_that_way. Heralds aren't, > > and can't be, any of those things. Let me clarify: the Herald would have to be pactically a computer: you feed in the data and the true answer comes out. There isn't room for any human judgment or human emotion there, because humans, however noble and pure, make mistakes. > Hmm. They can certainly get pretty close: > > infallible: > Truth spell will demonstrate, publically, what a witness believes > to be the truth. In the case of a suspect, that boils down to > "I did/didn't do it". This works *better* than real world systems, > except where what the suspect believes is incorrect, where you're > probably no worse off - other witnesses would probably point out > cases where this might be a possibility. This isn't what I meant by infallibility. In real-world cases, even if the facts of the matter are totally unquestionable (everyone agrees on them), there is the question of interpreting the laws correctly. As anyone who's been crazy enough to start reading law knows, that's not so easy. Even in common-law systems (like the US), where precedents have the force of law (I think?), there's no way of ascertaining the One True Judgment (tm). Moreover, Heralds don't have the training for this! They are trained for an approximation of five years. That includes riding lessons, learning to use a sword, geography, mathematics, politics, etiquette, and magic. Where, oh where do they find the time to learn laws and precedents and interpretation etc? Even assuming that Valdemar's laws are a lot simpler than ours (which isn't necessarily all that good an assumption) the Heralds can't possibly know enough to qualify as judges. (This is not to say that Heralds _can't_ know jurisdiction. In fact, one would assume that at least the seneschal's Herald is adept at it.) > impersonal: > Which is why they rotate heralds - and if judges won't participate > in personal cases, you can bet heralds wouldn't either. It's not a question if the judge _wants_ to participate or not. It's illegal to judge in a case that concerns you in any way. Even if we assume that Heralds are incorruptible (Which I don't think they are. But that's a separate question), a Herald might not recognize that he wasn't totally impartial. His Companion might not either, especially if their link was emotion-only. Heck, the _Companion_ might be partial and not notice it! > seen to be: > Well, truth spell is publically visible, and the companions > wouldn't stand for any messing around, so that should take care of > that. What do you mean? Explain? The truth spell is visible, yes. But can you reasonably expect a populace to believe that there aren't any "satanic forces" at work? If the populace assumes all magic is evil? Do you think the Holderkin trust the Heralds? And yet, shouldn't we assume that the Holderkin have a right to a justice system they can trust, too? I think it is cheating people to say that "the Companions will take care of the incorruptibility of it". After all, the Companions are (were) only human. Companions can be partial, too. And the Companions have taken care of staying unnoticed and horse-like. I think that makes all statements about their keeping the Heralds sane and goody- goody rather questionable to the populace at large. > > Also, we have laws that guarantee us immunity of the body. The > > requirements for the police right to body-search are strict. How > > much more sacrosanct should our minds be? The Herald can't just > > go around raping away people's thoughts. > > From what I can remember, this doesn't change - subjection to truth > spell is either voluntary (as in the case of the innocent trader accused > of murder) or after other evidence suggests a likely involvement A good point (about the voluntary agreement). I can still see the possibility of oppression by the Herald. (this bright, shining knight on his high horse comes up to you and says: "I know the truth. Trust me." Wouldn't your average peasant be awed and comply with whatever the Herald says?) > And the heralds may be a sort of appeal/higher level court anyway - I > don't think *every* case goes to a herald - I thought it was just the > more serious or unclear ones. No, no. I just can't agree here. The Heralds can't be an appeal court. What would the point be? They don't know the laws. Mostly, at least in Finland, it's the _juridically_ unclear cases that are solved by the highest court. I think Heralds would be good at helping the courts ascertain the (witnesses' subjective) truth, but not as judges. -Seanna ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 12:07:21 +0000 (GMT) From: jc-+AT+-crosfield.co.uk (Jerry Cullingford) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Reincarnation Message-ID: <9601161207.AA27922-+AT+-crosfield.co.uk> > > Yes! Lets. I agree. I shall cast the first vote. I think Urtho was > > reincarnated as both Vanyel AND Firesong. Anyone else? > > -Declan > How is that possible when Firesong met "Van" in the forrest of sorrows ? > > Ashke Hmm, well, it's only a problem if you have a hangup about linear time - if time isn't a factor when you're dead, why should you have to reincarnate in a later time? why not an earlier one? That would let you be two people in the same (world) time at different (soul) times. Take it to its logical extreme, and you can have the universe reincarnating as *everyone* (or *everything*, if you allow rocks/plants/whatever too) in turn in order to experience itself - neat concept :-). -- _|_ / | Jerry Cullingford jc-+AT+-crosfield.co.uk (Work) \_|_ jc-+AT+-selune.demon.co.uk (Home) \__/ Hemel Hempstead, UK jerry-+AT+-shell.portal.com (alternate) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 12:11:42 +0000 From: "David Ramsden" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: (Fwd) Bardic Voices vs Valdemar Message-ID: <199601161213.MAA21786-+AT+-gate.dungeon.com> > At 11:05 AM 1/15/96 GMT, dbackhau-+AT+-isou10.estec.esa.nl wrote: > >Kaatje wrote: > > > >>> > >>>Does anyone out there in Lackey land prefer the Bardic Voices > >>>books to the Velgrath ones? > > > >>The Lark and the Wren was my introduction to Misty, and I must say > >>it got me completely hooked. I thought the first book was quite > >>good in terms of characterization and worldbuilding, but I thought > >>the plot was a bit contrived--though certainly an interesting take > >>on an old theme--and certain bits were tough to swallow. > >>But I did like several bits and pieces--morality plays, > >>almost--about taxes, Amber's "house" and other slices of life. > >>And the characters were extremely well-drawn. Like I said, it was > >>good enough to get me hooked. I do feel that the rest in the > >>Bardic series didn't meet that standard, which is probably why I > >>like Velgarth more. > > > >Hear hear. I thoroughly enjoyed the first, but the second (Robin > >and Kestrel) just didn't gel - too much religion, and the > >characters didn't ring true, so I've not bothered to try A Cast of > >Corbies, or the 3rd Bardic Voices (with the characters from the > >second). A shame, 'cos the first was well worth the read. > > > >Debbi (who's seriously considering the Esmeralda option - question > >is, Esmeralda what?) > >******************************************************************* > >******** * The shortest unit of time in the multiverse is the New > >York Second, * * defined as the period of time between the > >traffic lights turning green * * and the cab > >behind you honking. * * -- > >Terry Pratchett, Lords and Ladies -- * > >******************************************************************* > >******** > > > > > I was woried about the third one too, but it was > actually > pretty good, maybe not as good as the first one, but > still worth reading. It has Nightengale in ti, and Tyfarr > (I think that's how you spell it...), not Robin And > Kestrel. Also, it's set in a very large city, and it > doesn't do QUITE as much church-bashing as the second one. > Not that I'm against defiying organized religion, but it did > seem to get in the way of the story. I'd buy it in > paperback, but borrow it form the library if you want to > read it right away. > > > 'Reesa > Raenn > yr > But It is out in paperback now. David Ramsden - Avalon-+AT+-post.dungeon.com ---------------------------------------- Bishop: I can promise that in this other world, there is hope. Hope that by working hard enough and reaching far enough others like us can someday rid the world of the fear and predjudice and hatred that claimed this one. Illyana: Then I'd rather have - hope than nothing at all. - from X-men Omega ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 08:55:45 -0500 From: Tammy Harris To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Larry Dixon's art Message-ID: <3A8B8CB1BE1-+AT+-medicine.dmed.iupui.edu> Hi All! I have to side with the majority on this one. While I thought that some of Larry's pictures of the gryphons were beautiful, his people all tended to look alike, and didn't have nearly enough personality. Did anyone else have a problem with his firecat (I forget which book, but I think it was SW)? It looked like a beautiful Persian cat, with no markings at all. As someone said, since he helped write the books, he can make the characters look however he wants. Still, I'd rather he attempted to match the description in the text. Unlike Jody (Jodi?) Lee, he *has* read the manuscript in advance. I would think he would at least try to be consistent. Well, enough ranting. On Tues, Jan 16, Jaguar wrote: > I'm babbling. I think I lost my mind again. Anyone seen it? It's probably in the same place as my marbles, which I lost two years ago. (I used to keep them under the couch, so I always knew where they were, but then my old roommate got rid of the couch, and I haven't seen them since.) If you find your mind, let me know if my marbles are there, okay? (The Ladies in Green have sent word that they would *love* to team up with the Cat People!!) Wind to thy Wings, Tammy "It's time to ask yourself what you believe" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 14:07:38 +0000 (GMT) From: jc-+AT+-crosfield.co.uk (Jerry Cullingford) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: magic as a stabilising factor Message-ID: <9601161407.AA00122-+AT+-crosfield.co.uk> > Why would bringing magic to the equation change anything? > > -Seanna I can certainly see it acting to slow down the rate of change, for several reasons: - If there's a magical way of doing something available, it reduces the pressure for developing a technological way of doing it. - Potential technologists may end up as mages instead. - Mages may block/discourage rival technological methods. -- _|_ / | Jerry Cullingford jc-+AT+-crosfield.co.uk (Work) \_|_ jc-+AT+-selune.demon.co.uk (Home) \__/ Hemel Hempstead, UK jerry-+AT+-shell.portal.com (alternate) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 06:59:43 -0800 (PST) From: Becky Anne Christensen To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: the bells, the bells (esmeralda) Message-ID: On Mon, 15 Jan 1996, Tammy Harris wrote: > On Sun, Jan 14, Gyrfalcon wrote: > > > On Sun, 14 Jan 1996, Catherine Osborne wrote: > > > > > The D.C. chapter of The Men In White, Inc., > > > > See! See! It's not just me! I was framed. Brainwashed! I'm innocent I > > tell you! Innocent!!!!! <--Look 5! > > > > Don't play innocent with me!!! (it doesn't work, anyway--I know > you better than that!) I've read your contract! No more preying on > the hapless and helpless! We know the truth!!! You may have > delegated some of it, but we know you're the evil mastermind behind > TMIW (tm). If you don't watch out, The Ladies in Green (TLIG, pat. > pend.) will be after you. And once they're after you, THERE IS NO > ESCAPE!!!!!!!!!! (how many ! is that?) > > Just a friendly warning! > > Tammy > > "It's time to ask yourself what you believe" > Yaay! Give him a taste of his own medicine, except TLIG are probably more dangerous, because they're women. If I were you Gryfalcon, I would be afraid. I wouldn't mess with women:) (:*BECKY*:) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 09:13:53 -0800 (PST) From: "Patrick S. Waterlander" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Just saying Hi and wondering Message-ID: On Fri, 12 Jan 1996 dbackhau-+AT+-isou10.estec.esa.nl wrote: > I quite like Hawaiin Tropic sun tan lotion which is coconutty and greasy - > does that count? > > Debbi (about to hightail it outta here - it's Friday!!!! (<- 4) > - 'n prettige weekend as us dutch speakers say) > ******************************************************************************* > * Pets are always a great help in times of stress. And in times of * > * starvation too, o'course. * > * Terry Pratchett, Small Gods * > ******************************************************************************* > > Wow! Someone with the same nationality as me. Actually, I'm a dutch- american so I guess I really dont count. But oh well. The really sad part is that I can't remember how to speak dutch -Declan ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 11:00:22 -0800 (PST) From: "Patrick S. Waterlander" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: re: Eastern Empire (+changing philosophies) Message-ID: On Fri, 12 Jan 1996 dbackhau-+AT+-isou10.estec.esa.nl wrote: > > From what I recall from reading The Black Griffon I didn't get an > impression of great evil from the EE - decadence maybe. Maybe as we > only ever see things through heralds eyes (except our Van of course), > and heralds are by their nature 'nice' (how damning that can sound - > "he's very ..... nice"), it's not to say that there aren't the usual > layabouts/louts/liars/crooks/bastards and cows around, we just don't > get to meet them. > > > Debbi > *************************************************************************** > > Ah, but you're mistaken on that point. We don't see things only through heralds eyes. What about Tarma and Kethry? Two full books just on their life, and then By The Sword chronicles Kero's life, who doesn't become a herald until the very end. So, we're provided with viewpoints other than heralds, but most of these viewpoints are in other kingdoms/countries than Valdemar. -Declan ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 11:25:10 -0800 (PST) From: "Patrick S. Waterlander" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Cover Art-Winds series Message-ID: This thread will probably die out pretty fast. But I wanted to comment that the cover art for WFate, WChange, and WFury had Elspeth on all three. Now, did anyone notice that WFate shows her as a mature person, and that WChange shows her as YOUNGER than the first one, and that WFury is somewhere between the two? It looks wrong to me, and I have no idea what the artist had in mind. -Declan ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 12:00:06 -0800 (PST) From: "Patrick S. Waterlander" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: heralds and justice Message-ID: On Fri, 12 Jan 1996 EGLESTON-+AT+-GROVER.BPL.ORG wrote: > Valdemar is *big*. If Pony Express Riders could cover 70 miles a > day with fresh ponies every so often, Companions can probably do the > same at the run, and yet in the stories again and again it takes a > Herald a lot of time to get from place A to place B, even when they > are in a hurry. And there aren't that many Heralds. > > Yoicks! and Away! > > Cindy > IIRC, when Kris and Talia encountered the town that was struck by Snow Fever, Talia had to ride for a day and a night on a COMPANION to reach the nearest healers temple. Since companions have considerably more endurance and speed than normal horses do, I would guess that she covered about a hundred miles, maybe more. This would indicate that Valdemar is VERY big, maybe even comparative to the US. -Declan ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 12:07:02 -0800 (PST) From: "Patrick S. Waterlander" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: New Thread: Charachters Message-ID: On Fri, 12 Jan 1996 EGLESTON-+AT+-GROVER.BPL.ORG wrote: > Mannaheim has offered to compile lists of charachters. I say, go for it, > but don't forget that Firebird is about to come out with concordances. > You may want to check their catalog to avoid duplicating effort. (Or > get the concordances and enjoy the fun of finding what they missed. > Most reffie books get _something_ wrong!) > > What I'm trying to put together is a list of Companion's names. Does > anyone know what Roald's Companion's name is? > > Yoicks! and Away! > > Cindy > Where can I send to for a Firebird catalog? And how much are they? I'd really like to know. -Declan -aka Mannaheim ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 12:05:06 -0800 (PST) From: CHONNI To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: (Fwd) Bardic Voices vs Valdemar Message-ID: On Mon, 15 Jan 1996 dbackhau-+AT+-isou10.estec.esa.nl wrote: > Kaatje wrote: > >>Does anyone out there in Lackey land prefer the Bardic Voices books to > >>the Velgrath ones? > > >The Lark and the Wren was my introduction to Misty, and I must say it got > >me completely hooked. I thought the first book was quite good in terms of (slash, tear) > Hear hear. I thoroughly enjoyed the first, but the second (Robin > and Kestrel) just didn't gel - too much religion, and the characters didn't > ring true, so I've not bothered to try A Cast of Corbies, or the 3rd > Bardic Voices (with the characters from the second). A shame, 'cos the > first was well worth the read. > > Debbi (who's seriously considering the Esmeralda option - question is, > Esmeralda what?) I kind of liked the Robin & the Kestrel, probably because I really liked the type of people they are, and also because of the sci-fi element it introduced. However, A Cast of Corbies avoids the big religious production, and I really liked it; I even bought it! It makes less of a moral/cultural statement than either R&K, or Lark&Wren, and focuses on the plot, characters, and all the things we love about Misty. Hope this helps... **********************Herald Chonni Brightwolf*************************** Just because some of us can read and write and do a little math does not mean we should conquer the universe ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 12:22:29 -0800 (PST) From: CHONNI To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: re: changing civilizations & Urtho reborn Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Jan 1996 CDyeboston-+AT+-aol.com wrote: > Several people have commented on how little the basic structure of the > Eastern Empire has changed in almost 24 centuries, with some side notes on > how much our own world has changed in the equivalent time. Also Valdemar, > which has a civil structure almost unchanged since its founding, and > certainly unchanged in the 400 year span between Vanyel's time and Talia's. > > The second possibility is that the presence of active, meddling gods on > Velgarth is what is retarding the forces of change. After all, once a > god/goddess has things the way he/she likes them, why muck with experiments? > > Cindy I kind of like the idea of meddling gods. I mean, if humans had been so moronic as to half destroy the world, and totally mess up magic, wouldn't you insure that everyone was less likely to rediscover technology? Especially if you knew (like the Goddess and Vkandis) that at some distant point in the future, something horrendous would occur, but you had no idea what it was? And re: who would Urtho come back as... I'm afraid I don't think he is either Vanyel OR Firesong. Quite frankly, as much as adore them both (oh to be a man and gay!), they just aren't smart enough. No, I'm not saying they're stupid, but Urtho was simply a genius. He was also extremely spiritual. Van started off sullen, and developed into a caring adult who had a deep commitment to duty and his friends. He would have blasted Ma'ar. Firesong dislikes mystics, and prefers intuitive creation to logic. He sees no beauty to mathematics, and I have a feeling Urtho did. I think some of us were moving in the right direction by wondering if Karal could be Urtho, but I think that Urtho would have chosen one of his people, now divided into the K'Leysha, the Tayledras and the shin'a'in. So, my personal choice? Some one who would have Sorceror-Adept level magic, a yen for mysticism and a very generous nature. Sound like anyone we know? Hmmm? Yup, I think that if Urtho were reincarnated, it would be as An'desha. Think of it as a great twist in the plot; the one person Ma'ar chooses to possess is actually Urtho reborn; it makes the fact that An'desha conquers the insane memories all the more precious. OTOH, I also think Urtho went on to bigger and better things than mere reincarnation. *******************Herald Chonni Brightwolf******************** Just because some of us can read and write and do a little math does not mean we should conquer the univers ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 12:31:02 -0800 (PST) From: "Patrick S. Waterlander" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Too Much Misty & Queens Own Message-ID: On Sat, 13 Jan 1996, SCN User wrote: > The second misconception is that Vrondi perform the Truth Spell > in return for the energy of the Heartstone. What really happens is that > the Truth Spell summons a Vrondi and directs it to do one of several > things, depending on which stage you initiate. What the Vrondi do in > return for a line of energy from the Heartstone is watch anyone using > magic in Valdemar that doesn't have a Companion. (Or rather, what they > did do before Van took the Vrondi line apart.) > > Just my thoughts... > > Zhai'helleva, > Herald Briana > "Finder of Useless Trivia" > > -- > Herald Briana Kestyl > wc814-+AT+-freenet.victoria > be248-+AT+-scn.org > HeraldBria-+AT+-aol.com > Ah. But what did the Vrondi get in exchange for performing the duties of the Truth Spell before Vanyel made the heartstone in Haven? -Declan ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 12:34:37 -0800 (PST) From: "Patrick S. Waterlander" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Coconuts? Message-ID: On Sat, 13 Jan 1996, Becky Anne Christensen wrote: > I realized that there are probably a couple of people on this > list who have no clue about the coconuts, swallows, and other Monty > Pythin gibberish, so I decided to enlighten you to the wonderful world of > the python (Monty, that is). It is all clearly explained (kinda) in scene > 1 of Monty Python and the Holy Grail(c) (tm) and whatever other > appropriate remarks apply. > > There, sorry it is long, and not relevant, but it might help some > people who are confused. MONTY PYTHON RULES! > > (:*BECKY*:) > I agree!!!! Excellent quoting I might add. Do you have a copy of the script on your computer? If you do, I'd like a copy. I really don't have time to go out searching the net, and net surfing has been banned at my college anyway, so I couldn't even if I had the time. My E-Mail address is: patw-+AT+-clark.edu Thanx Declan ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 12:38:04 -0800 (PST) From: "Patrick S. Waterlander" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: re: Eastern Empire Message-ID: On Sat, 13 Jan 1996, Becky Anne Christensen wrote: > Ma'ar created the maakar didn't he? But he never mastered the > level of perfection (or so they like to think) that Urtho got with the > Gryphons. That leads me to believe that Urtho must have been the better > sorceror-adept. Maybe he's not neccesarily the best at combat magics > though. It did say somewhere that he was better suited to making things > than to being a warlord. That could be why Ma'ar was defeating them. Also > some Heralds created gates (Savil, Elspeth, Van, etc..) and they were > just Adepts. > > (:*BECKY*:) > But that is where there is a difference. Savil, Vanyel, and Elspeth created gates, but they couldn't create permanent gates. If this was from lack of knowledge or because they couldn't, I don't know. Declan ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 13:09:22 -0800 (PST) From: "Patrick S. Waterlander" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: re- myriad subjects Message-ID: On Sat, 13 Jan 1996, Becky Anne Christensen wrote: > > > > > Yes! Lets. I agree. I shall cast the first vote. I think Urtho was > > reincarnated as both Vanyel AND Firesong. Anyone else? > > -Declan > > > > > That could not possibly be true. Maybe he could have been one of > them, but not both. If you recall in Winds of Fury, Vanyel kidnaps them, > including Firesong. Van's spirit is in Sorrows, so it couldn't be > anywhere else. I guess in a way he isn't even really dead yet. But > moreimportantly Van talks to Firesong. I find it hard to believe that > Urthos spirit would talk to itself. > > (:*BECKY*:) > Ah. Good points. One that I realized about 5 seconds after I sent off that post. So, I shall have to say that I vote for Urtho being reincarnated as Firesong. Declan ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 16:24:15 -0500 (EST) From: Ashke To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: RE: Makaar (& also Gates) Message-ID: > Ok, I haven't read White Griphon yet, so my ignorance may shine through, > but IIRC, Skan is supposed to encounter the empire, already founded. If > that's the case and it's either Urtho's people, or Ma'ar's people, they > did that *awfully* fast! It could be from another part of the world. > It's never been established that Ma'ar and Urtho were the only two > controlling forces in the world, just that they were the most powerful in > the area and the most remembered for causing the Mage Storms. :) > > Ok, feel free to correct my ignorance. :) > > Jenny This was not the Empire he encountered.....was the black kings.....Big difference....The black kings are black skinned ...people of the empire are not......and one of the mage storms books mantions the empire expanding south until they encountered another stable empire that predated even them. besides dont you think that 10 yrs is a little too fast to found an empire? Ashke ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 14:39:27 -0700 From: Todd Kungas To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: magic as a stabilising factor Message-ID: <9601162139.AA01856-+AT+-wtpprod1.wtp.net> At 20:29 01/16/96 GMT, you wrote: >> Why would bringing magic to the equation change anything? >> >> -Seanna > >I can certainly see it acting to slow down the rate of change, for >several reasons: >- If there's a magical way of doing something available, it reduces the >pressure for developing a technological way of doing it. >- Potential technologists may end up as mages instead. >- Mages may block/discourage rival technological methods. > _|_ > / | Jerry Cullingford jc-+AT+-crosfield.co.uk (Work) > \_|_ jc-+AT+-selune.demon.co.uk (Home) >\__/ Hemel Hempstead, UK jerry-+AT+-shell.portal.com (alternate) > That may be true, but it also could have been that no asked the right questions. In SR they were just starting to work with a basic steam engine to heat the castle, and to provide power. Technology can't happen if the right questions arn't asked to the right person. --Opinons?-- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Equine: an484352-+AT+-anon.penet.fi USA O thou, my milk-white pony, whose coat is as the moon-beams of this autumn night, carry me like a bird through the air.... [by Murasaki Shikabu (974-1031)] ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ End of MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 323 *********************************