MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 383 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re: Elspeth (was WoF) by The Master of Karma 2) Heartfelt Apology. by mealink-+AT+-syd.au.swissbank.com (Kerry Mealing) 3) Re: Elspeth (was WoF) by puppies and dragons 4) Re: Elspeth by Heather Watson 5) Re: Elspeth (was WoF) by this desk set wants to fly! 6) Re: Elspeth (was WoF) by this desk set wants to fly! 7) I'm ok, you're ok, Espeth is ok. :) Was Re: Elspeth by mealink-+AT+-syd.au.swissbank.com (Kerry Mealing) 8) Re: Heartfelt Apology. (minor admin) by mel (Melanie Dymond Harper) 9) Re: Heartfelt Apology. (minor admin) by Tammy Harris 10) All sorts of stuff by Sandra K Haas 11) Re: Companions by this desk set wants to fly! 12) Re: All sorts of stuff by STOKES J <95662014-+AT+-mmu.ac.uk> 13) Re: Elspeth by The Master of Karma 14) Re: Question by Elisa Shapiro 15) Re: Elspeth (was WoF) by Wallace-+AT+-online.knoxnews.com 16) Re: Elspeth by Heather Watson 17) Re: All sorts of stuff by "Icewolf" 18) Re: Elspeth by Gyrfalcon 19) Re: Companions by McCaffrey's White Dragon 20) Elspeth by "Icewolf" 21) re: Tayledras society by EGLESTON-+AT+-bpl.org 22) Re: All sorts of stuff by Sandra K Haas 23) Re: Elspeth by "Janet R. Wendorf" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 17:13:09 -0500 (EST) From: The Master of Karma To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Elspeth (was WoF) Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Feb 1996, SCN User wrote: > > Pardon me, but I think that was the point. I took it as the > character development of Elspeth. I think that ordinarily, character development involves the increase of depth as well as a change in surface behavior. The signal fact that I got out of the narrative of Elspeth was that she remained the same, as far as character went. She gained some skills, a lover, and a really cool wardrobe, but she didn't really change in terms of her fundamental character. She didn't become more sensitive to others, she did become more compassionate, more tolerant of mistakes, etc. She remains rather egocentric throughout. Anyway, that's my opinion, for what it is worth. > In the AOTQ series we saw how Talia > brought Elspeth back to being "normal" after becoming the Brat and I > looked at the W series as continued development of Elspeth becoming truly > normal and undertanding that she isn't any more special because she > was The Heir. I never really understood this contention. If Elspeth wasn't any more special than anyone else, why was she living in a Palace with lots of food, warmth, and shelter? Why did she get a good education for free (at least to her) and all the other advantages she enjoyed. Also, why did she have to give up her privacy and endure the assassination attempts, etc. It certainly wasn't because of her winning personality. She was/is a stubborn, uncharitable, unempathetic personality (at least in her personal life). No, she enjoyed the privileges and tribulations that she did precisely because she was the daughter of a Queen and the Heir. Those facts singled her out and made her special. (Note that I am not making a comment about whether she was better, just whether she was special.) Kenneth Allen Hyde | No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife Univ. of Delaware | between the shoulder blades will seriously Dept. of Linguistics | cramp his style -- Old Jhereg proverb kenny-+AT+-strauss.udel.edu | A mind is a terrible toy to waste! -- Me ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Feb 96 10:18:32 EST From: mealink-+AT+-syd.au.swissbank.com (Kerry Mealing) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Heartfelt Apology. Message-ID: <9602222318.AA11232-+AT+-syd.au.swissbank.com> Howdy Folks, Well, I sit here with the sinking feeling that my mailer has been bouncing every mail back to the list for the last 4 days. If that's the case, I apologize here and now - all I can say is that there was nothing I could do - I couldn't send mail out and I couldn't get mail in and the sysadmins were futzing around trying to fix it. Okay. Enough rambling. ObMisty: Is there music for the Spiral Dance song (from KoGaS) anywhere? Cheers, Kerry. "Just go with the flow control, roll with the crunches, and, when you get a prompt, type like hell." ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 16:17:26 -0700 (MST) From: puppies and dragons To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Elspeth (was WoF) Message-ID: <199602222317.QAA20834-+AT+-usr5.primenet.com> A> >*whew* Someone else who didn't like Elspeth. Sorry folks, but in >Winds of Fury, I found her rude, cruel, and self-centered. All that >on top of her "I'm the heir" attitude, which would alternately shift >her between arrogance and sickening self pity. She got a LOT better >in Winds of Change, and she was even tolerable in Winds of Fury. I >have to say, though, the "place" I like Elspeth best is her >appearances in Storm Warning. > >*Lyn dons flame-proof suit* > >Zhai'helleva! > >Lyn I agree WHOLEHEARTEDLY!!! I absolutely could not stand Elspeth in any of the books except the last one, where she was either somewhat nicer or I'd just gotten used to her. I prefer her as you do, in short, non-essential doses. Did anybody else HATE what happened to Skif? I mean, he could've used some maturing, sure, but Misty completely killed his sense of humor, which was what I loved best about him. Lady 'Reesa (Who hopes Lyn will share that suit, despite that throw rug comment...) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 17:41:20 CST From: Heather Watson To: Subject: Re: Elspeth Message-ID: <22FEB96.19104278.0053.MUSIC-+AT+-NEMOMUS> I suppose Elspeth's...um...personality disorder in the Winds series was intended to be character development. What bothered me was that it was old ground. The Arrows series dealt with Elspeth maturing and leaving her selfish ways behind, and by the end of AFall, we're supposed to believe that she's become a primarily caring, responsible person -- with occasional outbreaks of overly high spirits. I felt like she was a much more juvenile, inconsiderate person in WFate than she was at the end of AFall, and I didn't see any justification for why she would have backslid like that. She also seemed grimmer, more doggedly stubborn. In the Arrows series, I got the impression that Elspeth was a bright, mercurial girl with wild mood swings between stormy anger and effusive affection. I didn't feel that we saw any of that personality in Winds. But then, Skif became a real goob in that series too. Maybe everyone was just under stress. And I have to disagree that Winds was well-structured. Some people may have liked the two plotlines in Fate, but it annoyed me to no end that I had to keep pulling my attention from one set of characters to the other, with no relation between the two stories until the very end of the book. I just about gave up in disgust more than once. And the transcripts of Elspeth's magic lessons in the second book just went on and on and ON. I never wanted to know that much about Valdemaran magic. Some, yes, but as any college student knows, you never actually USE as much research as you do. It's great that Mercedes Lackey knows how all this works, but just because she knows every detail does not mean that it's necessary for us to hear every detail. At the risk of getting flamed, I didn't find the Tayledras society very convincing at all. It seemed very 2dimensional to me; all the Tayledras are good, all the Tayledras are happy. It's only when mean old outsiders come barging in that they have any problems at all. Their houses are marvels of beauty and comfort, they never seem to worry about food, although they are a hunter-gatherer society, they have no hang-ups about sex, and they always have the right answer. I hated people like that in high school. Christ, they don't even have jealousy. Have they invented disease yet? They probably just get healed, then all hold hands and sing "Michael, Row Your Boat Ashore." Gods, I'm being so negative. I'm sorry, guys; most of you probably really liked Winds, and here I am bitching. Actually, I think it was a moderately good series. I just hate to see Misty writing *moderately good* fiction, when I think she could be contributing so much more to the genre. I think AQ was remarkable, LHM was excellent, and I get depressed when I read a Misty book and think, Why isn't this better than it is? So I come down on it with both feet; Winds probably doesn't deserve all this venom. I guess I'm too much like Alberich: I'm harder on the people from whom I expect more HTH the Armchair Armsmaster of Fantasy ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 22:44:25 -0500 (EST) From: this desk set wants to fly! To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Elspeth (was WoF) Message-ID: > Did anybody else > HATE what happened to Skif? I mean, he could've used some > maturing, sure, but Misty completely killed his sense of humor, > which was what I loved best about him. Yes, yes, a thousand times yes! This is not our beloved rascal who would dance across thin ice! What happened to him, anyhow? I mean, I know that extremely unusual and bizarre experiences can have a strange effect on folks, and falling in love can be a maturing experience, but I never heard that any of those things made you _boring_. Zhai'helleva, Becky (no, the other one) ---------- Preserve nature -- pickle a squirrel. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 22:40:12 -0500 (EST) From: this desk set wants to fly! To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Elspeth (was WoF) Message-ID: Whoa! There sure are some serious Elspeth-haters out there! Granted, I am certainly not the former Heir's biggest fan, but neither do I think she's the world-class bitch and ice princess she's being made out to be. (Perhaps that's in part because I share some of the traits she gets the most static about, primarily stubbornness.) Certainly she's stubborn, but last time I checked that wasn't a cardinal sin. I can think of a few other Heralds and Herald-Mages who were similarly headstrong but did not end up with such large anti-fan clubs. If she were so headstrong that it constituted a major character flaw rather than an annoying personality trait, she would never have been Chosen -- especially not by a Grove-born. And as for her being called "uncharitable" and "uncaring" -- where do you get that from? Again, I contend that if that were true, she wouldn't have been Chosen in the first place. Oh, certainly she's not my favorite character, and I wouldn't choose her to be my best friend, but I really don't think she's as bad as you folks are making her sound. Zhai'helleva, Becky (the other one) ---------- Preserve nature -- pickle a squirrel. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Feb 96 14:52:43 EST From: mealink-+AT+-syd.au.swissbank.com (Kerry Mealing) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: I'm ok, you're ok, Espeth is ok. :) Was Re: Elspeth Message-ID: <9602230352.AA15857-+AT+-syd.au.swissbank.com> Heather wrote: > I felt like she was a much more juvenile, inconsiderate person in > WFate than she was at the end of AFall, and I didn't see any > justification for why she would have backslid like that. She also > seemed grimmer, more doggedly stubborn. Sometimes I feel it's my wretched fate in life to be a moderate. Try: Her land was in imminent danger of being overrun by armies and magics that Valdemar couldn't match; Her personal life was a void - she didn't have an SO (significant other) and wasn't likely to find one - and she didn't have that many close friends; At one level the hopes of the Heralds and the Kingdom rested on her shoulders; She knows she's been manipulated all along the way and she knows at some level that she's not the ideal ruler... And they say the teenage years are bad.. Wouldn't you become just a little grim and stubborn? > In the Arrows series, I got the > impression that Elspeth was a bright, mercurial girl with wild mood > swings between stormy anger and effusive affection. I didn't feel that > we saw any of that personality in Winds. > But then, Skif became a real goob in that series too. Maybe everyone > was just under stress. Skif's been traumatized and he's reaching out for anything to give him stability in his personal life. Plus he's been in the war with Ancar as well. He was very reminiscent of a war veteran, who's seen just too much to deal with and just wants to string himself back together. He was reaching out and caring on a personal level (and how hard was *that* after his upbringing?) with normal people and they were horribly destroyed because of what he perceived as his error. I thought he was dealing with it rather humanly. And that's the thing about Misty's books - the people *aren't* shining lights of whole-hearted purity and sweetness and light - even heralds moan and gripe and have prejudices and have lives. They're people, not instantiations of nobility. And IMO, that makes the books better. > At the risk of getting flamed, I didn't find the Tayledras society > very convincing at all. It seemed very 2dimensional to me; all the > Tayledras are good, all the Tayledras are happy. It's only when mean > old outsiders come barging in that they have any problems at all. Their > houses are marvels of beauty and comfort, they never seem to worry about > food, although they are a hunter-gatherer society, they have no hang-ups > about sex, and they always have the right answer. I hated people like > that in high school. Christ, they don't even have jealousy. Have they > invented disease yet? They probably just get healed, then all hold > hands and sing "Michael, Row Your Boat Ashore." Hmmm, maybe we just read on different levels. There's lovers quarrels and sibling rivalry and jealousy; there's rivalry in the council and prejudice between the mages and the scouts. Not all the Tayledras are happy .. they're in a war-zone and emotions tend to go to extremes in those cases - grabbing every moment that comes and treating them as a *gift*. No, not every Tayledras is happy. And no, they don't always have the right answer (how long did they muck around before asking for external help? How many people got killed because of -that- little foul-up?). And it's all very well to say "Yes, but that was mean ole Falconsbane", but the fact of the matter is, that the Tayledras are *always* at war with someone, or something, or the environment at the very least. And Falconsbane only got his claws into Starblade, not any of the others - and if one corrupted man (Starblade) can cause such havoc in the society, then that society is quite a way from perfect yet.. > Gods, I'm being so negative. I'm sorry, guys; most of you probably > really liked Winds, and here I am bitching. Actually, no, I agree with you - it was a passable series (for Misty, pretty good for others), but it just crammed too much into each book. Too much plot, too much description.. the type of book I always feel I need to take notes on just to fully grasp all the nuances. (Though I -did- like the magic descriptions.. they bring it just a little closer to being there..) > HTH the Armchair Armsmaster of Fantasy Cheers, Kerry.. "Just when you thought it was safe.." ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 10:29:33 GMT From: mel (Melanie Dymond Harper) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Heartfelt Apology. (minor admin) Message-ID: <9602231029.AA21215-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk> Kerry said: > Well, I sit here with the sinking feeling that my mailer has been bouncing > every mail back to the list for the last 4 days. If that's the case, I > apologize here and now - all I can say is that there was nothing I could do > - I couldn't send mail out and I couldn't get mail in and the sysadmins were > futzing around trying to fix it. Okay. Enough rambling. In actual fact, the listproc system is fairly good at spotting things which have bounced back to the list, so none of it got through. It all winds up in the list administration mailbox instead. I'm sure none of you actually _cared_ about this, but anyhow ... :) Cheers Mel. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 08:39:10 -0500 From: Tammy Harris To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Heartfelt Apology. (minor admin) Message-ID: <2B521E33BF3-+AT+-medicine.dmed.iupui.edu> Heyla, all! On Fri, Feb 23, Mel wrote: > In actual fact, the listproc system is fairly good at spotting things which > have bounced back to the list, so none of it got through. It all winds up in > the list administration mailbox instead. > > I'm sure none of you actually _cared_ about this, but anyhow ... :) For what it's worth, *I* certainly cared!! I'm on another mailing list, and for the last week or so, about half to three-quarters of each digest has been bounce messages. And with digest format, there's no way to skip them! It's a royal pain. Each and every day, I give thanks for our wise and wonderful listmistress (and wish she could give some lessons in admin......)! Mel, bless you, and may the Havens and the Star-Eyed continue to smile on you! Cheers to you, Tammy "It's time to ask yourself what you believe" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 10:20:12 -0500 (EST) From: Sandra K Haas To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: All sorts of stuff Message-ID: Sorry I'm not very good with cut & paste, and I had some questions for y'all: Re: the 'other' Becky's comment about Elspeth being not so bad, she was Chosen by a Grove-born. Why do you suppose that was? Wouldn't a Companion like Sayvil (?? the one who Chose Kero) be a better match?? Gwena doesn't have the 'personality' it seems to go head to head with Elspbeth. Re: Heathers comment about Skiff being a goob (I like that word!!) It was hard to figure out what was going on until he shared with WIntermoon (?) about that guy in the war who betrayed him, etc. I felt like that came out of left field. Wish Misty would have filled in a little bit more about that time period. It would have explained a lot. Re: the assassination attempt on Elspeth in the first W book Where did that come from?? I know the vrondi protection was failing, but that also seemed to come from left field, then fade into the 'never mind'. It seemed like a plot devise that was just sort of stuck in there to acomplish a means, but really didn't fit. (Although I admit, it has been a while and I might be missing a 2x4 board to the head!!) I think this is a dollars worth!! Sandy the sigless ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 11:00:06 -0500 (EST) From: this desk set wants to fly! To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Companions Message-ID: Heyla, all! Since I only joined the list a few weeks ago, I don't know if this one has already been discussed to death. If it has, please forgive me -- I meant no harm . Does anyone else think Kerowyn's Companion, Sayvil, is the reborn Savil from LHM? Something about that dry, sarcastic mind-voice seems awfully familiar to me.... Becky (who needs to come up with a better signature than "no, the _other_ one) ---------- Preserve nature -- pickle a squirrel. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 16:24:35 GMT From: STOKES J <95662014-+AT+-mmu.ac.uk> To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: All sorts of stuff Message-ID: >Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 15:44:58 GMT >Sorry I'm not very good with cut & paste, and I had some questions for >y'all: >Re: the 'other' Becky's comment about Elspeth being not so bad, she was >Chosen by a Grove-born. >Why do you suppose that was? Wouldn't a Companion like Sayvil (?? the >one who Chose Kero) be a better match?? Gwena doesn't have the '>personality' it seems to go head to head with Elspbeth. >Sandy the sigless I think it was stated somewhere that Elspeth was Chosen by a Grove born Companion because she was to be the first of the new Herald Mages. I think it was Van up in Sorrows after he kidnapped the Gate. Correct me if I'm wrong [ Stupid comment because I know someone will] I see you shiver with antici....pation Lord Jason[OIB] ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 11:36:25 -0500 (EST) From: The Master of Karma To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Elspeth Message-ID: On Fri, 23 Feb 1996, Heather Watson wrote: > At the risk of getting flamed, I didn't find the Tayledras society > very convincing at all. It seemed very 2dimensional to me; all the > Tayledras are good, all the Tayledras are happy. It's only when mean > old outsiders come barging in that they have any problems at all. Their > houses are marvels of beauty and comfort, they never seem to worry about > food, although they are a hunter-gatherer society, they have no hang-ups > about sex, and they always have the right answer. I hated people like > that in high school. Christ, they don't even have jealousy. Have they > invented disease yet? They probably just get healed, then all hold > hands and sing "Michael, Row Your Boat Ashore." Heather, you go, girl! Actually, I have to agree. I didn't like the Tayledras society at all. For one thing, it just simply wouldn't work. As you pointed out, they seem to be a hunter-gatherer society, but they really doesn't seem like a feasible social organization in the Pelagirs. Hunter-Gatherer societies are affluent and successful only in hospitable environments with abundant resources, not in magic-twisted and dangerous bad-lands full of viciously inimical life-forms. Also, where do they get the metals for their weapons? the beads and other things for their clothes? etc. If they are so-selfsufficient, whence comes the stuff that they pattently couldn't produce themselves. A final point, is that they are patently racially bigoted. Despite what is claimed in the text, a careful analysis of the narrative will reveal that they do consider themselves better than others (fundamental worth) and they take it as a granted that the dyheli and hertasi, etc. are properly their servants. They also clearly looked down on anyone who is not one of their number. Frankly, I don't think that thinly disguised feudalism and rampant xenophobia is a step towards enlightenment. I know that this is the second negative posting I have made recently, but I just have to say it. I love Misty's writing in general (although, let's not talk about the Diana Tregarde books). The Arrows series is one of my favorite series (I have already worn one copy to pieces with re-reading and had to by a new copy), and I am rather enjoying the MageStorms. I also loved the Tarma and Kethry stories and books. Frankly, in my opinion, OathBreakers may be Misty's best book ever. I have also enjoyed many of the books that she co-wrote with other authors. However, I think that the Tayledras and Elspeth are problems in her Valdemar books. Frankly, I occasionally found myself thinking that it might have done the Tayledras and Elspeth some good, if Mornelithe had won. Well, not really, but still... Anyway, for what it is worth. Ken Kenneth Allen Hyde | No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife Univ. of Delaware | between the shoulder blades will seriously Dept. of Linguistics | cramp his style -- Old Jhereg proverb kenny-+AT+-strauss.udel.edu | A mind is a terrible toy to waste! -- Me ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 11:38:39 -0500 (EST) From: Elisa Shapiro To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Question Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Feb 1996, Icewolf wrote: > Can anyone tell me how I would go about getting information about the > Science Fiction and Fantasy Book Club? > > Zhai'helleva! > > Lyn > > > Lyn Belzer * P.O. Box 234 St. Bonaventure, NY 14778 * 716/379-3034 You won't if you're smart. That thing is a total pain in the butt. If you forget to mail off the slip you end up with books you never wanted, and half the time you get the wrong book anyways. Besides all that, the shipping and handling is rediculous. If you still want to join though, check in the back of almost any sci-fi fantasy book and you'll find the advertisements and forms. - Elisa http://mmm.mbhs.edu/~eshapiro i am a work in progress dressed in the fabric of a world unfolding - ani difranco ------------------------------ Date: 23 Feb 1996 13:08:44 EDT From: Wallace-+AT+-online.knoxnews.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Elspeth (was WoF) Message-ID: <9602231813.AA06509-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk> Regarding all the "trashing" of poor Elspeth - IIRC, and it's been a while, the main problem she was having was being treated like "poor little girl, doesn't know what she's doing, I better take care of her" not only from her family, but from Skif and her Companion. I don't know about the rest of you, but I for one would get real testy being treated that way. Perhaps most of you females haven't experienced as much "discrimination" as I have, me being older, but let me tell you, it gets real old, real fast. I found that I was able to identify with what she was feeling. And if it'd been me, I'd have probably been even bitchier! Also, there are those of us constitutionally unable to deal with all the restrictions imposed on "royalty" even in this day and age. Read some about the British royal family, for instance. I pity those poor people! They have NO life at all! And I feel that was what Elspeth was contending with and trying her best to break away from - and she finally succeeded! Candace ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 12:21:20 CST From: Heather Watson To: Subject: Re: Elspeth Message-ID: <23FEB96.13344403.0050.MUSIC-+AT+-NEMOMUS> I don't have a problem with Elspeth's imperfections. I like imperfect characters, too. I do have a problem with the fact that they came out of left field. The last time we saw our fair Princess was in By the Sword, when Kerowyn was commenting how level-headed, charming, capable, and non-brat-like she was. (I'll find the quote later if anyone wants to hear it). Then, boom, we need character development for the next series, so she gets knocked down a few maturity pegs and we have to make up excuses as to why that might be. Well, she was under stress. Well, it was low self-esteem. Yeah, well, maybe, but this is not a crossword puzzle, and I shouldn't have to be filling these answers in myself. Character development entails a little more than having someone do things in one book they wouldn't have done in the last. Now, I don't hate and despise Elspeth. I actually like her, at least in some of her moods/stages of development. I just feel like she was a somewhat inconsistent character. And I think that little temper fit she threw in the first book that caused her to derail the entire mission because she wanted to be the boss of her was inexcusable. If that's in character, and I don't think it is, she shouldn't have been chosen. Can you imagine Talia or Vanyel getting in a pique because this wasn't their idea and refusing to go along with it? That's NOT what Heralds do; that's a hard-core violation of everything that Heralds are meant to be. They put their personal lives and their egos on the sideline and choose the safest, sanest course of action for the benefit of Valdemar. And given the gravity of the situation, it was all the more important for everyone to work as a team. Now, since very little of Elspeth's personality as presented elsewhere led me to believe she would do that sort of thing, I prefer to write it off as a plot device; it wouldn't be the first time Misty had characters do something that NO ONE would ever do just because the plot required it. But if, indeed, this is indicative of Elspeth's character, then God only knows why a grove-born Companion chose someone too arrogant to put Valdemar before herself. Either way, I think Misty shortchanged Elspeth by not giving her a chance in the Winds series to be the charming lady she was shaping up to be in previous books. HTH ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 13:52:49 EST5EDT From: "Icewolf" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: All sorts of stuff Message-ID: <4C6D1CA1728-+AT+-apps.sbu.edu> >I think it was stated somewhere that Elspeth was Chosen by a > Grove born Companion because she was to be the first of the >new Herald Mages. I think it was Van up in Sorrows after he >kidnapped the Gate. Correct me if I'm wrong >[ Stupid comment because I know someone will] Isn't that what listmates are for? *giggle* Actually, as far as I can remember, you're right on with your facts. Also, IIRC, Van didn't really see the need for a grove-born. I remember a comment along the lines of "It's amazing how little faith people can have in themselves," or something like that. Zhai'helleva (and Happy Friday!) Lyn Lyn Belzer * P.O. Box 234 St. Bonaventure, NY 14778 * 716/379-3034 ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* Maddness exacts its toll. Please have exact change. -Ursula Herz's neighbor's board ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 14:09:05 -0500 From: Gyrfalcon To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Elspeth Message-ID: <312E10D1.6612-+AT+-menger.eecs.stevens-tech.edu> The Master of Karma wrote: > > On Fri, 23 Feb 1996, Heather Watson wrote: > > At the risk of getting flamed, I didn't find the Tayledras society > > very convincing at all. It seemed very 2dimensional to me; all the > > Tayledras are good, all the Tayledras are happy. It's only when mean > > old outsiders come barging in that they have any problems at all. Their > > houses are marvels of beauty and comfort, they never seem to worry about > > food, although they are a hunter-gatherer society, they have no hang-ups > > about sex, and they always have the right answer. I hated people like > > that in high school. Christ, they don't even have jealousy. Have they > > invented disease yet? They probably just get healed, then all hold > > hands and sing "Michael, Row Your Boat Ashore." > > Heather, you go, girl! Actually, I have to agree. I didn't like the > Tayledras society at all. For one thing, it just simply wouldn't work. > As you pointed out, they seem to be a hunter-gatherer society, but they > really doesn't seem like a feasible social organization in the Pelagirs. > Hunter-Gatherer societies are affluent and successful only in hospitable > environments with abundant resources, not in magic-twisted and dangerous > bad-lands full of viciously inimical life-forms. Also, where do they get > the metals for their weapons? the beads and other things for their > clothes? etc. If they are so-selfsufficient, whence comes the stuff that > they pattently couldn't produce themselves. Alright, notes on the Hawkbrothers. First of all, the Taledras, while cleansing the Pelagirs they also act as "Lords and Ladies" of the people who have moven into the clean areas. They trade magical services, items, and the things they do make for raw material, and foodstuffs. You can see some of this type of thing in LHM1 where Van kills the Colddrake. In the winds series they sort of had a right to be xenophobic and such. They had an unknown enemy hounding them, a dangerous Heartstone, and more than half the clan missing. They've always been secretive and cautious. Treasure hunters they warn fairly and then kill after hostile action is initiated. There isn't anyplace that says they are hunter-gatherers. But they are very magic intensive clans and trade their services for goods. As for the comments about disease, look at Starblade. He was not healthy in any sense of the word after Falconsbane lost hold on him. And as for jealousy, have you read Storm rising yet? There is plenty of that happening. My .02$, --Gyrfalcon ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~msowers-+AT+-menger.eecs.stevens-tech.edu~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Magic still exists. We have only to reach out and touch it, it is a part of the very fabric of the world. When our belief of magic completely dies this universe shall die. Because that magic; Hope, Dreams, Love, Beauty, Wonder, Belief, and Discovery are what make us a people. They are all part of a great Art whose workings are still a mystery but whose applications can be seen every day. If we ever lose the Art mankind shall not last the day. Let the magic that is in us roam free in our work, play, in each other, and most of all in ourselves. Let it roam free or it will die. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 11:13:36 -0800 (PST) From: McCaffrey's White Dragon To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Companions Message-ID: On Fri, 23 Feb 1996, this desk set wants to fly! wrote: > Heyla, all! > Since I only joined the list a few weeks ago, I don't know if > this one has already been discussed to death. If it has, please forgive > me -- I meant no harm . Does anyone else think Kerowyn's Companion, > Sayvil, is the reborn Savil from LHM? Something about that dry, sarcastic > mind-voice seems awfully familiar to me.... I was involved heavily in the conversation, but since then I've found the mage wars infinately more interesting. I'm even a judge and get a look "behind the scenes". > > Becky (who needs to come up with a better signature than "no, the _other_ > one) > Try something from Monty Python or some anime :) ___________________ -==UDIC==- ________________ |\__________________\ McCaffrey's White Dragon |\________________\ ||Why is he talking | || | || to that ||| Don't ask. | || White Coconut? | Jake Gipple \|________________| \|__________________| (360)-887-4779 LEMUR! "When danger reared its ugly head, Sir Robbin bravely turned and fled!" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 14:13:44 EST5EDT From: "Icewolf" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Elspeth Message-ID: <4C72B20787E-+AT+-apps.sbu.edu> >>various reasons I disliked Elspeth snipped<< >>*Lyn dons flame-proof suit* > I agree WHOLEHEARTEDLY!!! I absolutely could not stand >Elspeth in any of the books except the last one, where she was >either somewhat nicer or I'd just gotten used to her. I prefer >her as you do, in short, non-essential doses. Did anybody else >HATE what happened to Skif? I mean, he could've used some >maturing, sure, but Misty completely killed his sense of humor, >which was what I loved best about him. As someone said, it was a nasty undercover assignment that "killed" his sense of humor during the war with Ancar. I think whoever described him as a veteran who has seen too much was right on the mark. Like Gwena, though, I think Elspeth could have been maybe just a *little* more considerate and maybe if the word "tact" entered her vocabulary... I know a couple of people have been defending Elspeth. Let me say I don't *hate* Elspeth, she just *really* gets on my nerves. (My favorite part of Storm Warning is when she is solidly set down by Altra :) And I think I was kind of disappointed. As Heather just said, Elspeth was really shaping up to be a neat person, and well, she wasn't. I'd also agree with Heather's plot device theory. > Lady 'Reesa > (Who hopes Lyn will share that suit, > despite that throw rug comment...) Icewolf considers for a moment, and then trots over to Lady 'Reesa with the jacket in her jaws, setting at her feet. :Please just don't mention it again. It was very upsetting...: :) :) :) Zhai'helleva-- Lyn Lyn Belzer * P.O. Box 234 St. Bonaventure, NY 14778 * 716/379-3034 ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* Maddness exacts its toll. Please have exact change. -Ursula Herz's neighbor's board ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 14:18:38 -0500 (EST) From: EGLESTON-+AT+-bpl.org To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: re: Tayledras society Message-ID: <960223141838.1b02-+AT+-bpl.org> I've been reading the comments about Tayledras' society and blinking... umm... have people forgotten that in the Winds books we are looking at a Vale that is severely out of balance? Not only is a senior member of the council sabotaging every effort to get things right, most of the people in the Vale are being negatively affected by a warped heartstone. As to the "racial bigotry" .... well, there is a little validity there. The hertasi and dyheli are not given much consideration, it appears, although the indications are that when members of those races _do_ ask for something their appeals are met with the same logic as those of the Tayledras. And do remember that while the hertasi work within the Vale, they live outside of it. Even in Vanyel's time, the Tervardi scout we know about had an ekele well outside the Vale. Whereas the newcomers, who adapt things for non-humans, seem to operate on the assumption that the Gryphons will live _in_ the Vale, and some of the other races as well. As to the Tayledras attitude toward outsiders who are human -- from all we can see, people who are careful of resources and do not harrass the harmless creatures are warned away from dangerous areas and left alone in clear areas. The Tayledras may be "ethnocentric", but that is a much different thing than bigotry. This is a bit disjointed because I'm at work, but basically I'm saying that it would be an error to get out the tar brush without a little more thought. Specific examples if you please, on either side of the question, would be nice. (I love an argument which keeps itself grounded in facts, instead of wandering off into the higher temperatures. ;->) (Hey Kerry! I'm a moderate too!) Yoicks! and Away! Cindy ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 14:33:21 -0500 (EST) From: Sandra K Haas To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: All sorts of stuff Message-ID: On Fri, 23 Feb 1996, STOKES J wrote: > >Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 15:44:58 GMT > > >Sorry I'm not very good with cut & paste, and I had some questions for > >y'all: > > >Re: the 'other' Becky's comment about Elspeth being not so bad, she was > >Chosen by a Grove-born. > >Why do you suppose that was? Wouldn't a Companion like Sayvil (?? the > >one who Chose Kero) be a better match?? Gwena doesn't have the > '>personality' it seems to go head to head with Elspbeth. > > >Sandy the sigless > > > I think it was stated somewhere that Elspeth was Chosen by a > Grove born Companion because she was to be the first of the > new Herald Mages. I think it was Van up in Sorrows after he > kidnapped the Gate. Correct me if I'm wrong > [ Stupid comment because I know someone will] > > I see you shiver with antici....pation > > Lord Jason[OIB] > I must *really* be dense, because I still can't figure out WHY couldn't her Companion just be a 'regular' one?? Is it explained in the Storm books I haven't read yet, why it was so important for her (Elspeth) to be Chosen by a *grove born*, as opposed to just Chosen?? Sandy the dense one!! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 14:38:25 -0500 From: "Janet R. Wendorf" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Elspeth Message-ID: <9602231945.AA24480-+AT+-enterprise.udayton.edu> Heather Watson wrote on Fri, 23 Feb 1996: > [stuff cut] > Now, I don't hate and despise Elspeth. I actually like her, at least > in some of her moods/stages of development. I just feel like she was a > somewhat inconsistent character. And I think that little temper fit she > threw in the first book that caused her to derail the entire mission > because she wanted to be the boss of her was inexcusable. If that's in > character, and I don't think it is, she shouldn't have been chosen. Can > you imagine Talia or Vanyel getting in a pique because this wasn't their > idea and refusing to go along with it? That's NOT what Heralds do; > that's a hard-core violation of everything that Heralds are meant to be. > They put their personal lives and their egos on the sideline and choose > the safest, sanest course of action for the benefit of Valdemar. And > given the gravity of the situation, it was all the more important for > everyone to work as a team. > Now, since very little of Elspeth's personality as presented > elsewhere led me to believe she would do that sort of thing, I prefer to > write it off as a plot device; it wouldn't be the first time Misty had > characters do something that NO ONE would ever do just because the plot > required it. But if, indeed, this is indicative of Elspeth's character, > then God only knows why a grove-born Companion chose someone too > arrogant to put Valdemar before herself. > Either way, I think Misty shortchanged Elspeth by not giving her a > chance in the Winds series to be the charming lady she was shaping up to > be in previous books. > > HTH I agree with everything else, her character development seemed inconsistent. It could just be that Misty needed that to be the focus of the books. I think there could be a rational for Elspeth to just decide to go off and not follow the path laid out for her by the Companions. Heralds are not just supposed to do what they are told (though that is part of it, especially during war), but they are supposed to do what they think is best for the country. I do not think she had foresight, but maybe her going off on her own was intuiton. Or it was intended for the Companions to "annoy" her, so that she would seek the best way and become more self-reliant. The Goddess could have intended that all along (If she knew about Falconsbane, Elspeth helped other people and at the same time helped Valdemar for the long run.) Don't the Companions at some point admit they could make a mistake? Heralds put their personal lives on the sideline, but they are still required to think, use their intelligence and make judgements. They are not expected to be perfect or always make the right decision. I do not think they are expected to act blindly for Valdemar, but when they have knowledge, etc. they are expected to use it. Janet ------------------------------ End of MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 383 *********************************