****************************** MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 384 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re: I'm ok, you're ok, Espeth is ok. :) Was Re: Elspeth by Mat Timmerman 2) Re: All sorts of stuff by Ian Macdonald 3) Re: Companions by Mat Timmerman 4) by Sandra K Haas 5) Re: The Ones in Black by McCaffrey's White Dragon 6) Re: Question by Wallace-+AT+-online.knoxnews.com 7) Re: Elspeth by Wallace-+AT+-online.knoxnews.com 8) Re: Elspeth by Wallace-+AT+-online.knoxnews.com 9) Re: All sorts of stuff by "Icewolf" 10) Diana Tregarde books! by Raingcats-+AT+-aol.com 11) Elspeth by Raingcats-+AT+-aol.com 12) Re: Companions by Raingcats-+AT+-aol.com 13) Re: Elspeth by 5INT627-+AT+-sc.maricopa.edu 14) Re: All sorts of stuff by 5INT627-+AT+-sc.maricopa.edu 15) Re: Question by Judeth Kitchin 16) Re: Sci-Fi Book Club by Heather Watson 17) Re: The Ones in Black by mrtmh-+AT+-primenet.com (puppies and dragons) 18) Re: Elspeth by TSALE-+AT+-ups.edu 19) Re: Sci-Fi Book Club by mrtmh-+AT+-primenet.com (puppies and dragons) 20) Re: Elspeth by this desk set wants to fly! 21) Re: Elspeth by Heather Watson 22) Re: Perfect characters by Heather Watson 23) I'll introduce myself... by Roger Dahl 24) Re: Elspeth (was WoF) by Becky Anne Christensen 25) Re: Elspeth (was WoF) by Becky Anne Christensen 26) Re: I'm ok, you're ok, Espeth is ok. :) Was Re: Elspeth by Becky Anne Christensen ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 15:07:29 -0400 (EDT) From: Mat Timmerman To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: I'm ok, you're ok, Espeth is ok. :) Was Re: Elspeth Message-ID: <01I1K21U95SY053PYU-+AT+-vaxc.hofstra.edu> From: mealink-+AT+-syd.au.swissbank.com (Kerry Mealing) > >Heather wrote: >> Gods, I'm being so negative. I'm sorry, guys; most of you probably >> really liked Winds, and here I am bitching. > >Actually, no, I agree with you - it was a passable series (for Misty, >pretty good for others), but it just crammed too much into each book. Too >much plot, too much description.. the type of book I always feel I need >to take notes on just to fully grasp all the nuances. I didn't really care for Elspeth, or all the switching of viewpoints in WoFate. Actually, when I reread that book, I usually skip the Elspeth parts until she meets up with Darkwind and Co. WoC is among my favorite Velgarth books. WoFury: the Vanyel scene and the ones with Kero meeting Need were the only really good parts (ok, and the scenes with Elspeth and Darkwind alone... so I'm a romantic, sue me ;) ). Kerry says of WoChange: > >(Though I -did- like the magic descriptions.. they bring it just a little >closer to being there..) Those were my favorite parts of the book. I guess that if I were on Velgarth, I'd be like Kyril; always trying to figure out the why's and how's of the Gifts. Mat accmjt-+AT+-hofstra.edu mtimme47-+AT+-magic.hofstra.edu http://ada.hofstra.edu/~mtimme47/ --==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==-- "They want to stop the ones who want prosthetic foreheads on their heads. But everybody wants prosthetic foreheads on their real heads." -- They Might Be Giants ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 20:08:36 +0000 (GMT) From: Ian Macdonald To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: All sorts of stuff Message-ID: On Fri, 23 Feb 1996, Sandra K Haas wrote: > > > > > I must *really* be dense, because I still can't figure out WHY couldn't > her Companion just be a 'regular' one?? Is it explained in the Storm > books I haven't read yet, why it was so important for her (Elspeth) to be > Chosen by a *grove born*, as opposed to just Chosen?? > > Sandy the dense one!! > Yeah I agree, I really think it might have been more use for her to get a companion that had experience with magic and could help her along the way, and possible be a bit wiser than Gwena Ian < all of a sudden a whisper of sound occurs then the sound of a body hitting a keyboard. "Good thing we had darts", one of the white coated men said to the other as they dragged ian's body from the terminal.> < ism-+AT+-tardis.ed.ac.uk > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 15:13:35 -0400 (EDT) From: Mat Timmerman To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Companions Message-ID: <01I1K2CXG1A6053PYU-+AT+-vaxc.hofstra.edu> From: this desk set wants to fly! > >Heyla, all! > Since I only joined the list a few weeks ago, I don't know if >this one has already been discussed to death. If it has, please forgive >me -- I meant no harm . Does anyone else think Kerowyn's Companion, >Sayvil, is the reborn Savil from LHM? Something about that dry, sarcastic >mind-voice seems awfully familiar to me.... > It's pretty much a consensus that Sayvil is the reborn Savil. The biggest evidence is Gwena's slip in WoChange (IIRC). She says something like, "Vanyel and his aunt Sayv...Savil". >Becky (who needs to come up with a better signature than "no, the _other_ >one) Well, since the _other_ other Becky usually signs as "Lady Becky" (being a LIG), you could always be "Lord Becky"! ;) ;) ;) Mat -- giddy from lack of food accmjt-+AT+-hofstra.edu mtimme47-+AT+-magic.hofstra.edu http://ada.hofstra.edu/~mtimme47/ --==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==-- "They want to stop the ones who want prosthetic foreheads on their heads. But everybody wants prosthetic foreheads on their real heads." -- They Might Be Giants ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 15:27:32 -0500 (EST) From: Sandra K Haas To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Message-ID: Cindy wrote: > As to > the "racial bigotry" .... well, there is a little validity there. The > hertasi and dyheli are not given much consideration, it appears, although > the indications are that when members of those races _do_ ask for something > their appeals are met with the same logic as those of the Tayledras. And > What about their reaction to Narya (sp?). Even before they knew she was Falconsbreaths daughter, they were prejudiced against her for being different. Just throwing logs on the discussion fire :} Sandy the sigless ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 12:32:24 -0800 (PST) From: McCaffrey's White Dragon To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: The Ones in Black Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Feb 1996, Rynath wrote: > Pandora wrote: > > . I've never been bitten by a wolf before...is it fun? My uncle > .Trapspringer was once bitten by a moose. Moose bites can be very > .nasty. :) > > You know, a moose bit my sister once... > > > > Zhai'ha'allav'a! > > +-------------------------------------------------------------+ > |Rynath / "Dear gods-- | > | / it's a conspiracy of fools!" | > | O)/////I<>=======================================-------- | > | \ -- Vanyel from Mercedes Lackey's | > |Jake IRL \ _Magic's Promise_ | > +----------------102744.2515-+AT+-compuserve.com-------------------+ > "I am not a number! I am a human being!" > Wi n0t trei a h0liday in Sweden this yer? | See the l0veli lakes | The W0nderful teleph0ne system | And mani interesting furry animals | Including the majestic m00se | A M00se once bit my sister ... | No realli! She was Karving her initals on the m00se with the sharpened end of an interspace t00thbrush given by Svenge - her brother-in-law - an Oslo dentist andstar of many Norwegian m0vies: "The H0t Hands of an Oslo Dentist", "Fillings of Passion", "The Huge M0lars of Horst Nordfink". | Mynd you, m00se bites Kan be pretty nasti ... ___________________ -==UDIC==- ________________ |\__________________\McCaffrey's White (X)Dragon|\________________\ ||Why is he talking ||| | || to that | || Don't ask. | || White Coconut? | Jake Gipple \|________________| \|__________________| (360)-887-4779 LEMUR! Mynd you, m00se bites Kan be pretty nasti ... ------------------------------ Date: 23 Feb 1996 15:41:10 EDT From: Wallace-+AT+-online.knoxnews.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Question Message-ID: <9602232045.AA18689-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk> ME>On Thu, 22 Feb 1996, Icewolf wrote: snip! Regarding Science Fiction book club: Address follows: ME> You won't if you're smart. That thing is a total pain in the butt. ME>If you forget to mail off the slip you end up with books you never wanted, ME>and half the time you get the wrong book anyways. Besides all that, the ME>shipping and handling is rediculous. I agree, I agree! Altho I've joined and quit several times . . . they're getting worse lately about sending books I haven't ordered, the wrong books, etc. I've probably paid for more books because I didn't get the refusal back in time than I have the ones I've ordered. Just quit again, by the way. Their address is: 505 Ridge Avenue, Hanover, PA 17332 - if you still want to join, after all this complaining! They do offer Misty's books, which is a plus. Candace ------------------------------ Date: 23 Feb 1996 15:48:28 EDT From: Wallace-+AT+-online.knoxnews.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Elspeth Message-ID: <9602232053.AA19353-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk> Regarding Elspeth, you said: But if, indeed, this is indicative of Elspeth's character, ME>then God only knows why a grove-born Companion chose someone too ME>arrogant to put Valdemar before herself. M Ummm, excuse me, but wasn't her Companion the one being so arrogant? Seems like I remember Gwena and Rolan (implied) and possibly others had concocted some sort of "grand plan" for Elspeth without her knowledge or consent. And I also seem to remember Vanyel in the Forest of Sorrows saying something about Gwena, just because she was Grove-Born, thinking she had all the answers . . . but certainly didn't! He didn't seem too enthusiastic about her "grand plan" either! As for maturity . . . I like to think I'm mature - and I should be, gods know, at my age! But!!! sometimes I revert to being twelve years old again, or maybe three, or at rare intervals, just born! It seems to me that a real person will vary in maturity level, depending on circumstance, mood, or gods-know-what. Besides, as I said in my previous ramblings, I would tend to get a little bent out of shape if I had fifteen thousand other people/beings trying to direct my life without my consent! Candace ------------------------------ Date: 23 Feb 1996 15:50:28 EDT From: Wallace-+AT+-online.knoxnews.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Elspeth Message-ID: <9602232055.AA19576-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk> You said: ME>Alright, notes on the Hawkbrothers. ME>First of all, the Taledras, while cleansing the Pelagirs they also act as ME>"Lords and Ladies" of the people who have moven into the clean areas. They ME>trade magical services, items, and the things they do make for raw material, ME>and foodstuffs. You can see some of this type of thing in LHM1 where Van ME>kills the Colddrake. In the winds series they sort of had a right to be ME>xenophobic and such. They had an unknown enemy hounding them, a dangerous ME>Heartstone, and more than half the clan missing. They've always been ME>secretive and cautious. Treasure hunters they warn fairly and then kill aft ME>hostile action is initiated. There isn't anyplace that says they are ME>hunter-gatherers. But they are very magic intensive clans and trade their ME>services for goods. As for the comments about disease, look at Starblade. ME>was not healthy in any sense of the word after Falconsbane lost hold on him. ME>And as for jealousy, have you read Storm rising yet? There is plenty of tha ME>happening. ME>My .02$, ME>--Gyrfalcon Gyrfalcon: My $.02 also! You said what I would have! Thanks! Candace ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 16:05:43 EST5EDT From: "Icewolf" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: All sorts of stuff Message-ID: <4C908C8472F-+AT+-apps.sbu.edu> Sandra wrote: >I must *really* be dense, because I still can't figure out WHY couldn't >her Companion just be a 'regular' one?? Is it explained in the Storm >books I haven't read yet, why it was so important for her (Elspeth) to be >Chosen by a *grove born*, as opposed to just Chosen?? Hey, if Vanyel didn't know why she couldn't have your "standard issue" Companion, you don't have to figure it out either. The explaination "because she's the first of the new Herald Mages" seems to be the final one. I personally think she would have done quite well had Sayvil taken her (I know, I know, Kero required her, too, but bear with me). Can you see Sayvil putting up with Elspeth's nonsense? I don't think so. :) (Even her most ardent fans must admit that Elspeth got a little...out of hand at times.) So, here's the question. If you could "reassign" any Companion to any Herald, who would it be? I'd re-pair Sayvil to Elspeth, pair, oh, how about, Jisa-as-Companion (we haven't seen her, but that doesn't mean she doesn't exist) to Kero, and send Gwena back to wherever it is she came from. (She meant well, but...) Zhai'helleva! Lyn P.S. Please don't anybody read this as me rewriting Misty. She's created quite the duo in Kero and Sayvil. This is just a little friendly speculation. . (She's attempting to apply for a job in England) P.P.S. Anybody out there going to school at Oxford? If you do, could you send me info on applying to school there? Thanks. Lyn Belzer * P.O. Box 234 St. Bonaventure, NY 14778 * 716/379-3034 ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* Maddness exacts its toll. Please have exact change. -Ursula Herz's neighbor's board ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 16:28:58 -0500 From: Raingcats-+AT+-aol.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Diana Tregarde books! Message-ID: <960223162856_430015896-+AT+-emout06.mail.aol.com> > I love Misty's writing in general (although, >let's not talk about the Diana Tregarde books) I LIKED the Diana Tregarde books I'll have you know! What didn't you like about them? Zhai'helleva! Lady Moonsong "If life is just a highway-then the soul is just a car and objects in the rearview mirror may appear closer than they are" - Meatloaf, "Objects In The Rearview Mirror May Appear Closer Than They Are" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 16:29:43 -0500 From: Raingcats-+AT+-aol.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Elspeth Message-ID: <960223162942_430015969-+AT+-emout09.mail.aol.com> May I please say that I personally think that this subject has been beaten to death and all I see is regurgitated facts. Does anyone else agree or am I setting myself up for getting flamed? Zhai'helleva! Lady Moonsong "If life is just a highway-then the soul is just a car and objects in the rearview mirror may appear closer than they are" - Meatloaf, "Objects In The Rearview Mirror May Appear Closer Than They Are" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 16:29:19 -0500 From: Raingcats-+AT+-aol.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Companions Message-ID: <960223162917_430015929-+AT+-emout08.mail.aol.com> >Does anyone else think Kerowyn's Companion, >Sayvil, is the reborn Savil from LHM? I do! I do! Did anybody else notice how Gwena kept slipping and starting to say Savil instead of Sayvil or the other way around? Sorry if this sounds like nitpicking but I've reread those books god knows how many times! Zhai'helleva! Lady Moonsong "If life is just a highway-then the soul is just a car and objects in the rearview mirror may appear closer than they are" - Meatloaf, "Objects In The Rearview Mirror May Appear Closer Than They Are" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 17:37:10 -0700 (MST) From: 5INT627-+AT+-sc.maricopa.edu To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Elspeth Message-ID: <01I1K75PKLUA003H0N-+AT+-sc.maricopa.edu> One thing you're both missing is that Elspeth's teacher was our old friend Kerowyn, who is perfectly capable of telling anybody to stuff it if she felt that it wasn't right for her people. I think that Elspeth was influenced very strongly by Kerowyn, and thus became even more self-sufficient than the norm, even for a Herald. Remember also that Alberich had a great role in the molding of Elspeth's character, so much so that in Arrows of the Queen Talia believes that it was Alberich who dealt the final blow to the Brat, leaving just Elspeth. Also, in Arrows Fall, Elspeth acts with similar independence when she vlues(sorry, valued) her friendship with Dirk and Talia over the necesity that she, as Heir, not unduly risk herself when she helped Dirk Fetch Talia from Ancar's dungeon. I'm not so sure that Elspeth's character development was as inconsistent as you all think. ---EDWARD--- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 17:48:01 -0700 (MST) From: 5INT627-+AT+-sc.maricopa.edu To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: All sorts of stuff Message-ID: <01I1K7PO6O6M003H0N-+AT+-sc.maricopa.edu> Ian, If I remember correctly, in Winds of Change Gwena remarks that most Companians can't channel magic to their Chosen, and that she could, so it could be a possibility that only Grove-born Companians can channel, and Rolan was already occupied with Talia. Also, I think it was in Winds of Fate that Vanyel tells Elspeth that Gwena was Grove-born because "the Companians wanted to keep a special eye on her, since she would be the first of the Herald-Mages since Vanyels time. ---EDWARD--- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 19:56:55 -0500 From: Judeth Kitchin To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Question Message-ID: <312E6257.152C-+AT+-tiac.net> Icewolf wrote: > > Can anyone tell me how I would go about getting information about the > Science Fiction and Fantasy Book Club? > > Zhai'helleva! > > Lyn > > > Lyn Belzer * P.O. Box 234 St. Bonaventure, NY 14778 * 716/379-3034 > ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* > Maddness exacts its toll. Please have exact change. > -Ursula Herz's neighbor's board The Science Fiction Book Club is at 6550 East 30th Street, PO Box 6325, Indianapolis, IN 46206-6325. I have been a member for more years than I want to admit. It goes in cycles how good it is, but is worth joining and staying with because when it's hot, it's hot. Judy ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 19:13:34 CST From: Heather Watson To: Subject: Re: Sci-Fi Book Club Message-ID: <23FEB96.20764294.0121.MUSIC-+AT+-NEMOMUS> Now, now. I really like the SFBC. Yes, you do have to send the card back if you don't want the selections, but they *do* give you a month. Even the minimally organized (i.e. me) can usually check the right box, put the form in the little envelope, and mail it back within a month. I've never had problems getting what I order. And there's nothing on earth more convenient than having Misty trilogies/duologies published in nice, hardback, single-volume editions. (I like the cover on my LHM book, almost as much as the original Magic's Price cover). For order info, I'd suggest checking magazines like SF Age, Realms of Fantasy, or the like. But first, check around to see if anyone you know is a member. If you join through them, they get two free books :) You get six or seven at some insanely low price, with obligation to buy four more over the next two years. All the books are hardcover and run from eight to twelve dollars, on the average. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 18:15:51 -0700 (MST) From: mrtmh-+AT+-primenet.com (puppies and dragons) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: The Ones in Black Message-ID: <199602240115.SAA15322-+AT+-usr3.primenet.com> A> > >Wi n0t trei a h0liday in Sweden this yer? | See the l0veli lakes | The W0nderful >teleph0ne system | And mani interesting furry animals | Including the majestic m00se >| A M00se once bit my sister ... | No realli! She was Karving her initals on the > m00se with the sharpened end of an interspace t00thbrush given by Svenge - her > brother-in-law - an Oslo dentist andstar of many Norwegian m0vies: "The H0t > Hands of an Oslo Dentist", "Fillings of Passion", "The Huge M0lars of Horst > Nordfink". | Mynd you, m00se bites Kan be pretty nasti ... > > > ___________________ -==UDIC==- ________________ > |\__________________\McCaffrey's White (X)Dragon|\________________\ > ||Why is he talking ||| | > || to that | || Don't ask. | > || White Coconut? | Jake Gipple \|________________| > \|__________________| (360)-887-4779 LEMUR! > Mynd you, m00se bites Kan be pretty nasti ... > > Okay, I've said it before and I'll say it again, NO! Although if everybody else is talking about good old Python (Monty), then I suppose it's okay for me to do it too. Attention All Flamer's!!! Do not look at me! I didn't start it! By the way, what kind of sparrow carried the moose away? Or were they to busy designing coconut harnesses to help? Lady 'Reesa (Who wonder who the lemur is talking to...) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 17:18:26 -0800 (PST) From: TSALE-+AT+-ups.edu To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Elspeth Message-ID: <960223171826.5098-+AT+-ups.edu> Ok, I'm going to don the flame-proof suit before I evn start cause I'm going to step on some toes here. As for Elsbeth, she and Darkwind are my favorite characters in any of the books. And I do happen to thing that the Winds trilogy is best of any that she has written. They storylines are complex and interesting, and show a depth of character that is lacking in the other books. Don't get me wrong, I love Misty's book (other wise I wouldn't be here) Arrows is good but shallow, and not very well written. It's her first series and to be expected that she has some bugs to work out. In Winds, IMO the storylines are well tied together from the beginning and it works, very well infact. To return to Elsbeth, She is human. She isthe first of the protagonists that seem to have FLAWS. YEs Van is wonderful, but he also has this aura of unbelievability because he is just too perfect. I don;t understand his motivations or anything. Talia is much the same. Elsbeth is REAL to me. Misty is starting to deal with real people and the flaws and foibles that they have. Her problems and frustrations and motivations I can see and understand. As for the Tayledras being 2-dementional or shallow...it would seem to me that the Herald community shows much less depth then the Tayledras do. Even among a group of dedicated self sacrificing people you will have problems, and I don't see any. Are all the heralds perfect? And I am not talking aobut the nasty actions the Blues take toward Talia or snything. I am talking about the Heralds and their interactions. Sorry if this didn't make much sense or rambled...It's Friday and I haven't slept all week. Tayla (How do you do a sig anyway?) " ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 19:54:49 -0700 (MST) From: mrtmh-+AT+-primenet.com (puppies and dragons) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Sci-Fi Book Club Message-ID: <199602240254.TAA27387-+AT+-usr1.primenet.com> At 02:44 AM 2/24/96 GMT, Heather Watson wrote: >Now, now. I really like the SFBC. Yes, you do have to send the card >back if you don't want the selections, but they *do* give you a month. >Even the minimally organized (i.e. me) can usually check the right box, >put the form in the little envelope, and mail it back within a month. >I've never had problems getting what I order. > > For order info, I'd suggest checking magazines like SF Age, Realms of >Fantasy, or the like. But first, check around to see if anyone you know >is a member. If you join through them, they get two free books :) You >get six or seven at some insanely low price, with obligation to buy four >more over the next two years. All the books are hardcover and run from >eight to twelve dollars, on the average. > > I've been a member for almost four years now, and I don't know why, but guys and gals, I have never had to send one of those cards back in. They do not send me the featured selections unless I ask for them. And I've gotten some really great books from them, that I never would have picked up in the store. Those little write-ups are wonderful! (Just for instance, has anyone read "Jumper" by Steven Gould, or "Villians By Necesity" by Eve Forward? Both EXCELLENT!!!) Lady 'Reesa (Who knows she's rambled long enough) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 22:18:32 -0500 (EST) From: this desk set wants to fly! To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Elspeth Message-ID: On Sat, 24 Feb 1996 Raingcats-+AT+-aol.com wrote: > May I please say that I personally think that this subject has been beaten to > death and all I see is regurgitated facts. Does anyone else agree or am I > setting myself up for getting flamed? > > > > Zhai'helleva! > > Lady Moonsong Yes! Absolutely! She's not an excessively sweet person & the character development is a bit awkward. 'Nuff said. Lord Beck ---------- Preserve nature -- pickle a squirrel. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 21:50:30 CST From: Heather Watson To: Subject: Re: Elspeth Message-ID: <23FEB96.23589040.0052.MUSIC-+AT+-NEMOMUS> Okay, one last defense of my comments about Elspeth, and then I give in. (Maybe.) Yes, people's maturity levels do vary from day to day. I know mine do. And yes, the "grand destiny" bit was annoying, deeply so. I would have been hacked off as well. But I'm not a Herald. I can do something out of spite and annoyance, with no proof that it would do any good at all, and chances are, the only person I'll hurt is myself. Elspeth was the Heir and a Herald, and we've established by now that she has a special position and special limitations on her freedom. (For a very nice exploration of those responsibilities, try to listen to the song "Cost of the Crown" on the Lovers, Lore, and Loss CD. Shandeen expresses the sentiment better than I could here.) I don't blame her for getting hacked off. I blame her for letting her emotions interfere with her duties. I blame her for putting her hurt feelings above the safety of Valdemar. Now, as it happens, Gwena did make a mistake, and Elspeth's way did turn out to be better. But Elspeth had no way of knowing that, and no reason to believe it. I suppose some deity could have "arranged" the whole thing, but that's manipulation on an even grander scale than we were talking about in the first place, and IN THEORY, though admittedly not so often in the books, the gods of Velgarth try not to control mortal actions. Love the child, hate the action. Her feelings were valid and understandable; her response, I think, was selfish. HTH ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 22:19:18 CST From: Heather Watson To: Subject: Re: Perfect characters Message-ID: <23FEB96.24107736.0052.MUSIC-+AT+-NEMOMUS> Oh, now look what you've done. Now I have to get into the issue of flaws and foibles in Misty's work. You really didn't want to start this. You don't know how many long, late-night conversations I've had with my best friend on this very topic. I could write a paper (and judging from the experiences of some people on this list, maybe I'll get to yet!) Yes, I think Misty sometimes has a problem with making characters who are too, well, right. Sometimes I think the characters get unsympathetic, like Tarma and Kethry did in many, many of the short stories (though don't get me wrong, I liked the books fine.) Sometimes I find myself thinking, "Well, isn't that just nice for you," when a Herald can cast a truth spell and justice is done, and when you can always tell who the good guys are BECAUSE THEY'RE THE ONES IN WHITE ON A WHITE HORSE. Gee, too bad that has no relevance to my life whatsoever. Personally, I find a bit of ambiguity engaging in a story. But it's escapist fantasy, and as Misty herself has often said, she isn't trying to make Great Literature. So I can forgive her (more or less) for writing that I might otherwise consider overly romanticized. However, that said, I must insist that the characterization I found most believable was in the EARLIER series. All of it. Talia was not perfect, for crying out loud. She was nice, yes. She was too bloody nice. She was self-effacing with incredibly low self-esteem, and she had problems asserting herself. Most of the time, Talia did the right thing, but she never had any confidence in her ability to do the right thing. And she really blew it big time more than once by being afraid that if she were open with the important people in her life, they'd turn on her. I think Talia was a sweet, caring person who had a lot of learning to do, which she did throughout the trilogy. Vanyel...perfect? No, no, no, I disagree most heartily. Vanyel, like Talia, and I think like most good Heralds, didn't take very good care of himself. He had a fatalistic attitude toward life, and believed that he would never be happy. When he started to become happy, he felt sure he was doing something wrong. He had a problem with intimacy, because he'd been hurt before. And he over-analyzed everything (maybe that's why I like him). Granted, none of these things make him a sleazball. He is the hero, after all. But I think he was both sympathetic, and made more than one mistake. One final point, before I retire and let you jackals have at me . LHM did something that I thought was quite cool, that you don't see too often in Misty's books. There was a Herald who did something Really Wrong. Not 'Lendel, though I guess him, too. I'm thinking of the Herald in MPromise who beat a Companion bloody because he was too stubborn to recognize that his instincts might have been biased, ill-considered, and misleading. He had made up his mind and by God, that was all there was to it. Imagine that! A Herald who makes really bad mistakes, and doesn't always get the hero role. Oh, most Heralds should be heroes, I think. But now and then it's cool to see one really muck it up to high heaven. And for sympathetic but fallible, flawed characters, the best and most compelling ever, IMO, in Misty's work, was Vanyel's father. For those of you who felt we overElspethed, I am sorry. I was enjoying the various ideas a great deal. I've been told I can talk longer about one topic than anyone on the planet, except maybe my friend Dave, which is why we get along so darn well. I'm tempted to give the advice I was given when I complained about the mage war: if it doesn't interest you, skip the thread. But that sounds slightly callous, and I don't want to be dictatorial here. I do think, though, that analysis of an author's major characters is appropriate fodder for discussion on a list about the author's works. I dunno, I'm torn. Heck, I'll stop if everyone else will, but if there's still interest in the general theme, I'm game. How's that for decisive? And I'm sorry I can't do more to back up my rather acidic attack on the Tayledras. I don't own any of the Winds books; I never felt moved to buy my own copies. Maybe I'll steal them from my best friend next time I'm in town and re-read the whole series. Boy, then I'll really have things to say, won't I? HTH ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 21:24:42 +0000 (GMT) From: Roger Dahl To: Lackey-List Subject: I'll introduce myself... Message-ID: Hi everyone, I subscribed to this list today and this is my first post. What can I say, I love most of what I've read by Lackey. She has a knack of touching something deep within. And I must confess she's one of the very few writers who has brought me to happy tears (when something turns out right :) I have yet to read most of Lackey's work (I guess a few of you might envy me that, huh? :) but I'm devouring it at fast pace. My favourite bits so far would have to be the description of love between Vanyel and Stef. And how she makes the gryphons and their young come alive. I will never forget the incident of the tail-feather of, was it, Darkwind's Bondbird... I do think she has a tendency to exaggerate her bad guys though. I could live without all the explicit descriptions of extreme torture etc. I'm also like Diane Duane, Marion Zimmer Bradley, Anne McAffrey (why do women write the best fantasy?). Other writers that come to mind is Tilley, Brinn, Bear, Constantine... I'm in the process of fetching the faq and until I've read it I won't venture any questions. I hope there is an overview of Lackey's work there though. I'm genuinly glad to be here, and I look forward to getting to know you all. A special thanx to the list maintainer. Good domain-name... :) I have a web page at gaupe.hin.no/~rd if anyone's interested in knowing more about me. -+*#*+- -+*#*+- -+*#*+- -+*# Roger Dahl - rd-+AT+-redleaf.bbs.no #*+- Now Hounds of Love are Hunting ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 21:52:49 -0800 (PST) From: Becky Anne Christensen To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Elspeth (was WoF) Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Feb 1996, Icewolf wrote: > >gee, I didn't really like Elspeth *at all*. I thought those books were > >good mainly for the very short section involving Quentin and everything > >involving Darkwind, particularly in the first book and Firesong in the > >second book and Vanyel showing up. Was that confused? Oh well, suffice it > >to say her females in those books were not done particularly well, but I > >really really liked Darkwind. > > *whew* Someone else who didn't like Elspeth. Sorry folks, but in > Winds of Fury, I found her rude, cruel, and self-centered. All that > on top of her "I'm the heir" attitude, which would alternately shift > her between arrogance and sickening self pity. She got a LOT better > in Winds of Change, and she was even tolerable in Winds of Fury. I > have to say, though, the "place" I like Elspeth best is her > appearances in Storm Warning. > > *Lyn dons flame-proof suit* > > Zhai'helleva! > > Lyn I think that shows how she was still growing up in many ways. She was being a real brat during some parts of WOF, but she got over it. I think that maybe even heralds sometimes have growing up to do, even after they got their whites. Lady Becky The more that you read, the more things you will know. The more that you learn, the more places you'll go. --Dr. Suess ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 22:04:06 -0800 (PST) From: Becky Anne Christensen To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Elspeth (was WoF) Message-ID: On Fri, 23 Feb 1996, puppies and dragons wrote: > A> > >*whew* Someone else who didn't like Elspeth. Sorry folks, but in > >Winds of Fury, I found her rude, cruel, and self-centered. All that > >on top of her "I'm the heir" attitude, which would alternately shift > >her between arrogance and sickening self pity. She got a LOT better > >in Winds of Change, and she was even tolerable in Winds of Fury. I > >have to say, though, the "place" I like Elspeth best is her > >appearances in Storm Warning. > > > >*Lyn dons flame-proof suit* > > > >Zhai'helleva! > > > >Lyn > > I agree WHOLEHEARTEDLY!!! I absolutely could not stand > Elspeth in any of the books except the last one, where she was > either somewhat nicer or I'd just gotten used to her. I prefer > her as you do, in short, non-essential doses. Did anybody else > HATE what happened to Skif? I mean, he could've used some > maturing, sure, but Misty completely killed his sense of humor, > which was what I loved best about him. > > > Lady 'Reesa > (Who hopes Lyn will share that suit, > despite that throw rug comment...) > I really didn't like Skif in the beginning of WOF, it was like he was a totally different person almost. I liked him much, much, MUCH better in all the arrows books. Lady Becky The more that you read, the more things you will know. The more that you learn, the more places you'll go. --Dr. Suess ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 22:26:13 -0800 (PST) From: Becky Anne Christensen To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: I'm ok, you're ok, Espeth is ok. :) Was Re: Elspeth Message-ID: On Sat, 24 Feb 1996, Mat Timmerman wrote: > From: mealink-+AT+-syd.au.swissbank.com (Kerry Mealing) > > > >Heather wrote: > among my favorite Velgarth books. WoFury: the Vanyel scene and the > ones with Kero meeting Need were the only really good parts (ok, and > the scenes with Elspeth and Darkwind alone... so I'm a romantic, sue > me ;) ). > > Kerry says of WoChange: I love the part where Elspeth meets Need! I laugh out loud every time I read it! I believe it goes something like this: "Is it not enough that I have a lover who invades my dreams, a horse that talks, but does everything in my life have to come back and TALK IN MY HEAD!!" Probably not the exact words, but it's something close to that. I really love Kero! Lady Becky The more that you read, the more things you will know. The more that you learn, the more places you'll go. --Dr. Suess ------------------------------ End of MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 384 *********************************