MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 426 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re: Elric (was re: Author! Author!) by "Jake (Rynath *OIB*)" <102744.2515-+AT+-compuserve.com> 2) Something more pleasant about the Gods by Heather Watson 3) Black characters by Heather Watson 4) Re: ranting about the Gods by The Mage of Green Silences 5) Re: Eddings :) by "Jake (Rynath *OIB*)" <102744.2515-+AT+-compuserve.com> 6) Re: Castings again by "Jake (Rynath *OIB*)" <102744.2515-+AT+-compuserve.com> 7) Re: Eddings (note lack of smiley face) by The Mage of Green Silences 8) re: ranting about the gods by CDyeboston-+AT+-aol.com 9) Re: Bedlam Bards by "Jake (Rynath *OIB*)" <102744.2515-+AT+-compuserve.com> 10) Re: Eddings! :) by catwoman 11) re:The Eagle and the Nightingales by dbackhau-+AT+-isou10.estec.esa.nl 12) Re: Casting by STOKES J <95662014-+AT+-mmu.ac.uk> 13) Re: Castings again by Catherine Osborne 14) Re: Eddings :) by Rosario Holsen-Baker 15) Re: Eddings! :) by Rosario Holsen-Baker 16) Lists by "Jill" 17) Re: Eddings (note lack of smiley face) by Rosario Holsen-Baker 18) Re: Eddings! :) by Rosario Holsen-Baker 19) Re: Cool bookstores in NYC (NMLC) by "Stormcloud" 20) Re: ADMIN: the How and Why book of Listservers (was: Ohhhh Listmistress...) by mel (Melanie Dymond Harper) 21) Re: Lists by mel (Melanie Dymond Harper) 22) Re: Lists by "Charis Stewart" 23) Re: Eddings :) by 5INT627-+AT+-sc.maricopa.edu 24) Re: ADMIN: the How and Why book of Listservers (was: Ohhhh Listmistress...) by Ian Macdonald 25) Re: Eddings by Heather Watson ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 18 Mar 96 22:17:48 EST From: "Jake (Rynath *OIB*)" <102744.2515-+AT+-compuserve.com> To: M-L mailing list Subject: Re: Elric (was re: Author! Author!) Message-ID: <960319031748_102744.2515_GHT172-3-+AT+-CompuServe.COM> Lady Jaguar wrote: .On Sun, 17 Mar 1996, Jake (Rynath *OIB*) wrote: .. .. .> Michael Moorcock's _Elric of Melinibone_ (although I don't think this one is .> going to be good.) .> . Ooooh, no. The first five books of the Elric series are .incredible! After that, though, it gets a bit stale. But the first five .are wonderful, especially _Elric of Melibone_ This was the only book I read where the whole beginning was in the present tense. Blech. I didn't like the style of writing, but I liked the characters and the plot. Author addition: Terry Pratchett! How could I forget? I'm reading his latest Discworld novel (no name--me-+AT+-computer, books-+AT+-room) and it's hilarious. If his other Discworld stuff is as funny as this one, I'll buy them all. He's funnier than Robert Aspirin, at least. Jake Whaplode Drove. n. A homicidal golf stroke. >From _The Meaning of Liff_ by Douglas Adams and John Lloyd. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 21:36:16 CST From: Heather Watson To: Subject: Something more pleasant about the Gods Message-ID: <18MAR96.23333089.0180.MUSIC-+AT+-NEMOMUS> Before I go to bed and nurse my misery (I'm going to the doctor tomorrow; four days is enough of this), I leave you with a thought gleaned from my sickbed reading. Kal'enedral means both "Children of Her Sword" and "Her Sword-Brothers." First, that's an interesting double meaning. One implies more of a subordinate position, the other a relationship of equals. One wonders how a single word gets imbued with two separate connotations. Second, it hints that a great deal of thought went into the syntax and structure of the Shin'a'in language -- which I've suspected ever since we've had Tayledras to compare and contrast with it. It certainly seems to operate by rules, even when I can't see what precisely they are. Misty should hire a friendly linguist to develop a Berlitz course in Shin'a'in and Tayledras, like the nice folks at Paramount did with Klingon. We could even have language-immersion camps Doesn't that sound better than whatever you were planning for this summer? Think of me, think of me fondly.... HTH ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 21:38:57 CST From: Heather Watson To: Subject: Black characters Message-ID: <18MAR96.23381470.0180.MUSIC-+AT+-NEMOMUS> Charles de Lint didn't write the Doussye stories. Devil if I can remember off-hand who did, but I have every short story in my collection cataloged on my computer upstairs, so I'll look it up and report back to you in the morning. (I keep that silly list for just such an occasion -- and for when I pick up a book and say "I know that name. What else have I read by him?") HTH ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 22:48:48 -0500 (EST) From: The Mage of Green Silences To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: ranting about the Gods Message-ID: On Mon, 18 Mar 1996, Adrienne York wrote: > To each his own... There is no one true way. Of course there is! Misty was just joking before. BTW, for a small love gift of $100US I will be pleased to reveal to you the One True Way (called Kennyism). Cash only, please. =) kenny-+AT+-strauss.udel.edu | A mind is a terrible toy to waste! -- Me ------------------------------ Date: 18 Mar 96 23:30:40 EST From: "Jake (Rynath *OIB*)" <102744.2515-+AT+-compuserve.com> To: M-L mailing list Subject: Re: Eddings :) Message-ID: <960319043039_102744.2515_GHT57-5-+AT+-CompuServe.COM> .Edward wrote: .>On Mon, 18 Mar 1996, Jill wrote: .>> ObMisty --- Ummm...hmmm....Eddings/Misty crossover would be cool! .> .>NNNOOOOO!!!!!!! Pleeeeeeeeeeaaaaase don't! .>Unless of course Misty does the female characters, a thing which Eddings is .>obviously unable to do (judging from the Elenium-books). .>C.G.Jung-stereotypes all-over, and I thought good fantasy books (resp. .>writers) had overcome that a long time ago (well, sometime in the 80s, at .>least). .> .>Forward momentum .>Khenta* .Khenta*, . Read the Tamuli or the Belgariad or the Mallorean or .Belgarath the Sorcerer and reach the same conclusion...I don't .think Polgara is any type of "C.G.Jung" stereotype, heck, in most .ways she's tougher than Belgarath! Yes! Polgara is definitely on the "fantasy women I would love to meet list," right after Kerowyn and Kethry... I'm not all to familiar with Jung, but Pol seems far from stereotypical, esp. if you read _Belgarath the Sorcerer._ More stereotypical, would be her sister. And I *love* the picture of Pol that's on the cover of _Belgarath, etc._ I know this isnt eddings-l, but I just have to say that I remember someone saying somewhere (yes, my memory is great) that the Belgariad (with all the books set in that universe) setting books paralleled the Tamuli setting books. This seems a little ridic, as the women characters in the Belgariad books seem to me much stronger than the ones in the Tamuli books. ObMisty: Misty doesn't name her trilogies after her characters. (The Taliad? The Vanyelloreon? The Tarmkethruli? The Kerowynium? No!) Shade and Sweet Water to You, ========================== Rynath (OIB) / Jake ======================= "There can always be another headless corpse. But true love--that comes around only once." -- Perry White, "Lois and Clark." ========================102744.2515-+AT+-compuserve.com =================== ------------------------------ Date: 18 Mar 96 23:30:37 EST From: "Jake (Rynath *OIB*)" <102744.2515-+AT+-compuserve.com> To: M-L mailing list Subject: Re: Castings again Message-ID: <960319043037_102744.2515_GHT57-4-+AT+-CompuServe.COM> Stormcloud wrote: . .> 'nother pertinent question: who will be directing? .> I can't make up my mind between Ridley Scott and Kathryn Bigelow... .> .> .> Khenta* . .. .The voice of Jenna's mother: Mel Gibsonnnnnnnn ^^^^^^^^ -- Look 8! LOL!!!!! .Seriously, he did a damned good job directing Braveheart and The Man .Without a Face. He may not be as experienced a director as some .others, but I think he might be a good consideration. I didn't see those two movies, so I couldn't comment on Mel Gibson. It depends on what's going on with the movie. Is it going to be heavy SFX? Then we need a real good SFX director to do it (Lucas?) Is it going to be more content and less SFX? Then we need a cool director. Is it going to be an action-adventure? Maybe we can get Jackie Chan to direct and star . "Yes, it's Jackie Chan as you've never seen him before in... Rumble.. in.. Valdemar!" Sorry! Shade and Sweet Water to You, ========================== Rynath (OIB) / Jake ======================= "There can always be another headless corpse. But true love--that comes around only once." -- Perry White, "Lois and Clark." ========================102744.2515-+AT+-compuserve.com =================== ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 23:35:51 -0500 (EST) From: The Mage of Green Silences To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Eddings (note lack of smiley face) Message-ID: On Tue, 19 Mar 1996, Heather Watson wrote: > Well, you may have to disagree with Khenta about Eddings, whoever you > are (sorry, the name wasn't clear on the post I received), but you're > the first person I've ever met who didn't have the same reaction to > Eddings' women. I am another one, then. I *like* Eddings characters, female and male. > And Mirtai doesn't count. She was a caricature, comic relief. Kills > fifteen men with a sharpened spoon? Give me a break. This is > four-color comic book silliness. I prefer "tough ladies" who resemble > the smart, strong, resilient women I know in real life. They had to > chain Mirtai to a wall to keep her from rushing into battle. All brawn, > with the intelligence of my dog Ro. Not exactly a sympathetic heroine, > in my book. Hmmm. One wonders what your reaction to a male character of the same description/characterisation would be. Also, I don't think that Mirtai was comic (relief or otherwise). And saying that she used a "sharpened spoon" is cheating. Of course it sounds comic if you say it that way. On the other hand, if you present it as "she killed 15 men, mostly armed with a small dagger that she had fashioned by sharpening the metal handle of a spoon into a stilleto and then concealing in a false wooden handle" the whole thing becomes much more plausible. Mind you, to a trained warrior (or even a sufficiently desperate girl being raped), even a normal spoon can become a deadly weapon to be used in self-defense. > It's a challenge to present capable, likeable women who would > realistically come out of a patriarchal culture. I enjoy it, but I > admit it's a challenge. We know it's possible, though, because capable, > likeable women really DID come out of patriarchal cultures right here in > our quiet little world. Yet another plank in my theory that all fantasy > writers should have a strong background in history Name names! While I don't for the least bit wish to argue against there be capable, likeable women in patriarchal cultures, I would ask that you name any likeable women who achieved the kind of social prominence and respect that we see in most fantasy novels. Then show me one of this group that wasn't squashed flat by the patriarchal powers that be. Misty's characters are wonderful, but they are no less fictional and unrealistic than Eddings. In a true patriarchy (such as Medieval Europe), Talia or Elspeth wouldn't have had a prayer at leading the sort of life they led. Frankly, Talia would have been returned to her Holderkin father, who would be seen as *owning* her, and Elspeth would have been kept sequestered and isolated until such time as a convenient marriage could be arranged with a man who would then become the heir to the throne. Because, in a patriarchal society, women can't rule. It took the Pragmatic Sanction and the War of Austrian Succession to force the idea of a Ruling Queen on Europe. So, on the whole, I find that Edding's Baroness Melisande was probably more "realistic" than you make her out to be. For that matter, the most unrealistic thing about Ehlanna is not that she wheedles her husband or that she is devious. The most unrealistic thing is that she is the queen and he is the consort. If they lived in real feudal patriarchy, he would have been crowned king and she would be relegated to a nice solar somewhere. Or she might have hung on to power by sheer ruthlessness and depotism (Catherine d'Medici comes to mind). One final note. Although the fantasies under discussion here are based on Medieval European prototypes, if we are going to discuss the role of women in a patriarchy (particularly a feudal one), we should expand our field a bit. European women actually had it good compared to many other cultures. My goodness, if Kero had been born into a noble Chinese family of the Qin, how good a fighter do you think she would have become. Kinda hard to fight and ride when your feet have been bound from the age of three and you are permanently crippled. May the seas be your solace and the forests a refuge for your spirit, Cennydd, Mage of the Green Silences. Eu guardo a luz das estrelas a alma de cada folha Sem folhas nao tem vida, Sem folhas nao tem nada, Salve as folhas! Kenneth Allen Hyde | No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife Univ. of Delaware | between the shoulder blades will seriously Dept. of Linguistics | cramp his style -- Old Jhereg proverb kenny-+AT+-strauss.udel.edu | A mind is a terrible toy to waste! -- Me ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 23:38:42 -0500 From: CDyeboston-+AT+-aol.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: re: ranting about the gods Message-ID: <960318233841_171792333-+AT+-emout07.mail.aol.com> Heather has made a number of points about the lack of commendable virtues displayed by the gods of Velgarth -- notably the Star-Eyed and Vkandis (whom we know the most about.) Various arguments have come back, but I think I'll settle for this one. Who says Gods have to be nice? Ore even good? Especially on Velgarth, where Tharlkarsh (sp?)-- the demon from Oathbound -- came pretty darn close to achieving deityhood. They are not omniscient (the Star Eyed admits this more than once to Tarma), and they are not without concerns on a different plane than the world we see. (The news that the Empire does not have a deity to fight improved the odds that Vkandis would help in the Storms, remember?) They appear to be beings with good power supplies who have an occasional interest in mucking with the people on a different plane. I suspect that they are most often interested in mucking when events are conspiring to interfere with the lives/beliefs of their followers. (The believers generate a lot of the gods' power supply. -- much like in Terry Pratchett's _Small Gods_.) The upshot being that these are gods only in the sense that gods are "incredibly powerful beings whose motives are obscure." They are neither omniscient nor omnipotent, and are probably subject to making the same sorts of mistakes (through self-absorption) as an other sapient being. They are worshipped for the power they wield -- for the things which they can do for the worshippers when properly propitiated. (Not because this or that god is necessarily the most virtuous.) An'desha's good looks weren't restored out of any feeling of "being nice" to him. He had just taken a lot of risks to help destroy Falconsbane, and the Star-Eyed probably felt that this was sufficient payback. And Nyara got the side benefit, because if you're going to clean house, you might as well wash the windows. Yoicks! and Away! Cindy p.s. When Talia told Karal that Vkandis wouldn't let him be in the job if he were incompetent, I think she was merely overestimating Vkandis' level of involvement in Karse. What a character tells you is so can be wrong, you are only stuck with what the narrator tells you. ------------------------------ Date: 18 Mar 96 23:40:58 EST From: "Jake (Rynath *OIB*)" <102744.2515-+AT+-compuserve.com> To: M-L mailing list Subject: Re: Bedlam Bards Message-ID: <960319044058_102744.2515_GHT57-6-+AT+-CompuServe.COM> Mat wrote: .From: "Jake (Rynath *OIB*)" <102744.2515-+AT+-compuserve.com> .. .This is a little late, since I just got back from vacation. My .dial-ins from home were really limited, so I'm behind on my replies. .. .> .>Those books were good, but Ellen Guon's _Bedlam Bardz_ is IMHO a waste. It .>seems that in this case: .> .I thought that it was a pretty good book. Not as good as the collabs, .but not a waste. Some of the Kayla parts in _Summoned to Tourney_ made .more sense if you'd read _Bedlam Boyz_ (not Bedlam Bardz -- the series .is called Bedlam's Bards or something like that). I don't remember the rest of my post (the reasons why I said it was a waste), but I'll have to gander I said something along the lines like those two characters were weak. They were. And it doesn't matter if it explains the Kayla parts or not--I found the book very uninteresting. It seems in this case, Misty did the better character work and Ellen added her healer and her healer's guidance counselor/whatever. Although the scene where Kayla reads the book from the Queen's Own trilogy is kind of amusing... .I've got to say that that "z" bothers me though. It's sooo cheesy (or should that .be cheezy ? :) ). (/rant) Alternate spellings drive. me. nuts! I have a strong cyberpunk (hate that word) background and it seems every book that wants to be kewl must put all werdz in2 weerd spellinz! I see that and two words ring in my head: "talent substitute." I mean, you can couch a dialect in your writing without being cheesy. Like Chekov from the Star Trek novels--you can say "he said in a strong Russian accent" instead of "Keptin, I am werry concerned!" It's a crutch that poor writers use badly to make them look "kewl." Take a look at _Virtual Death_ by Shale Aaron to see what I mean. Even R. Talisorian Games' _The Pacific Rim Sourcebook_ looks like inane twelve year old internet typing (back 2 u! B4 ITZ 2 L8! SOME1 LOOK -+AT+- ME! Argh!!!) (/rantoff) Shade and Sweet Water to You, ========================== Rynath (OIB) / Jake ======================= "There can always be another headless corpse. But true love--that comes around only once." -- Perry White, "Lois and Clark." ========================102744.2515-+AT+-compuserve.com =================== ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 22:29:42 -0800 From: catwoman To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Eddings! :) Message-ID: <199603190629.WAA10230-+AT+-inreach.com> At 20:11 3/18/96 GMT, you wrote: >> Oh, ho!! Somebody's been reading Eddings, I bet! *grin* I love >> Eddings, and Velvet was great. > Velvet and Silk are two of my role models. Another one is Mona >Mayfair, from Anne Rice's Mayfair witch series (Lasher and Taltos). :) Mona rocks! She's pretty darn nifty, but I liked her much better when she came down off of her "slut" stage and was more or less normal. well, normal for the Mayfair family anyways. > ObMisty: There are no Mayfairs on Velgarth. :) oh yeah? Just wait. ObMisty: Its a good thing there are no Mayfairs in Valdemar. :) -catwoman-+AT+-inreach.com still looking for a spiffy sig.. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Mar 96 09:31:12 +0100 From: dbackhau-+AT+-isou10.estec.esa.nl To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: re:The Eagle and the Nightingales Message-ID: <9603190831.AA20721-+AT+-isou10.estec.esa.nl> Muranog wanted to know ... > Bright the day, listmembers! > Just finished the latest Misty book I could get my hands on - title as > above. I may be totally mistaken{hope hope HOPE not :)} but I got the > idea from various hints in the book that Misty has written other books > in that setting/with those characters...is this so? Can anyone tell me > what their titles are if so, & whether they're available in the UK? > One troll eagerly anticipating replies... Well, I'm sorry to say that you've read book 3 first - I've read the first (enjoyed it a lot), the second (enjoyed it not at all) so never got around to the third. I recall someone saying a while back here that the 3rd was much better than the 2nd. Anyhow here's the list of the books linked to Eagle/Nightingale. Bardic Voices The Lark and The Wren The Robin and The Kestrel The Eagle and The Nightenglale Bardic Choices A Cast of Corbies They are definitely available in the UK (or were last time I was in Forbidden Planet - about 3 months ago - waaay to long ago - I need a trip to London) tot ziens, Esmeralda Evensbane (unaffiliated) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 09:50:46 GMT From: STOKES J <95662014-+AT+-mmu.ac.uk> To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Casting Message-ID: <300CC654F17-+AT+-EXCALIBUR.MMU.AC.UK> > Just as an aside, I am bi-sexual, and I would never >reveal this to anyone in my school, out of fear that I would be >targeted. Yes, I am fully capable of taking care of myself, but I >do not wish to deal with the hatred I have seen displayed towards >the one openly gay girl who goes there. She is my friend, and I >have seen her cry over the thoughtless words of some idiot who >never took the time to get to know her before condeming her. > Lady 'Reesa >P.S. The more I think about it the more convinced I become that >it was Utah. Also didn't Colorado[sp?] overturn a number of anti discrimination Bills [think it was in 93] [Main ones in Denver and Aspin I think] I was living in California at the time and thought oh Buchanan, the right wing are at it again. Kalen shena Vuysher'edras[OIB] ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 07:51:34 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine Osborne To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Castings again Message-ID: > Stormcloud wrote: > .> 'nother pertinent question: who will be directing? > .> I can't make up my mind between Ridley Scott and Kathryn Bigelow... > .> > .> > .> Khenta* > . > . > .The voice of Jenna's mother: Mel Gibsonnnnnnnn > ^^^^^^^^ -- Look 8! > LOL!!!!! > > .Seriously, he did a damned good job directing Braveheart and The Man > .Without a Face. He may not be as experienced a director as some > .others, but I think he might be a good consideration. sorry to burst your bubbles ;) but I seriously doubt Mel Gibson would ever agree to direct this movie(s). He's very very homophobic and that might conflict somewhat with the basic integrity of the story.... ;) I\/ Catherine Osborne "After great pain, I\/ Sundancer a formal feeling comes." I cosborne-+AT+-sidwell.edu --Emily Dickinson I http://www.sidwell.edu/~cosborne/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 08:24:34 -0500 (EST) From: Rosario Holsen-Baker To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Eddings :) Message-ID: On Tue, 19 Mar 1996, Jake (Rynath *OIB*) wrote: > ObMisty: Misty doesn't name her trilogies after her characters. (The Taliad? > The Vanyelloreon? The Tarmkethruli? The Kerowynium? No!) > Eeeyuch! Why *does* he do that, anyway? I don't know of any author who does that. The _______ Chronicles, yes, The Whatever Trilogy, The Thingumajigger Tales, but nothing like that. *****LADY JAGUAR***** Leader of the Cat People Lady in Green LGMCB, DHTBB "Meddle not in the affairs of cats for you are soft-skinned, and blind at night." ********************* ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 08:29:22 -0500 (EST) From: Rosario Holsen-Baker To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Eddings! :) Message-ID: On Tue, 19 Mar 1996, SHE WHO WORSHIPS GEORGE, SILK, AND SKIF wrote: > I agree! I'm afraid that I'm going to have to stick up for my idol, > (Velvet) in that she is NOT a stereotypical female. For that matter, I don't > think Vella or Pol fit the stereotype either. Or Poreen, or that old lady > that lives in the Fens with the little animals. NOw that I think of it, the > only one who seems to show ANY weaknesses (this should probably worry me) > was Ce'Nedra, and let me say that she isn't to typical. Zubrette might have > been a little stereotypical. (This could open up a whole new discussion if > we wanted to discuss Mandorallan's little love, but we can stop there.) Nerina, or Zubrette? Zubrette + Rundorig, Nerina + Mandorallen About the only stereotypical (not being all that well versed in Jung) females in the Belgarath books are most of the wives of the kings. Wives, not co-consorts (Ce'Nedra, Mayaserena) or Regents (Porenn). Ce'Nedra was, I think, weak because she grew up "The Bourne Princess" and was pretty sheltered. > > ObMisty... >>> Ummm... I've got it! If Skif hadn't been Chosen, you think he > would have ended up being a Silk without a title or a loudmouthed white horse? > Yes. :) *****LADY JAGUAR***** Leader of the Cat People Lady in Green LGMCB, DHTBB "Meddle not in the affairs of cats for you are soft-skinned, and blind at night." ********************* ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 08:24:25 EDT From: "Jill" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Lists Message-ID: <16F0676EA2-+AT+-pub.sbu.edu> Sorry ... I know this is off-topic, but I figured this was a good place to start... Oh, listmistress .... how, perchance, does one go about starting a mailing list? And how many people on here would be interested in a Pern/McCaffrey one if I figure it out? Jill Morrison /// morrisjm-+AT+-sbu.edu /// Merlyn3109-+AT+-aol.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "And that's such a shame, because that stranger is the Puck in the midden, the part of us that makes gold out of trash, poetry out of nonsense. It calls art forth from common sights and music from ordinary sound and without it, the world would be a very grey place indeed." - From "A Tempest in her Eyes" "The Ivory and the Horn" by Charles de Lint ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 08:33:34 -0500 (EST) From: Rosario Holsen-Baker To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Eddings (note lack of smiley face) Message-ID: On Tue, 19 Mar 1996, Heather Watson wrote: > And Mirtai doesn't count. She was a caricature, comic relief. Kills > fifteen men with a sharpened spoon? Give me a break. This is > four-color comic book silliness. I prefer "tough ladies" who resemble > the smart, strong, resilient women I know in real life. They had to > chain Mirtai to a wall to keep her from rushing into battle. All brawn, > with the intelligence of my dog Ro. Not exactly a sympathetic heroine, > in my book. > That wasn't a female-portrayal issue. That was how her people were bred. It got discussed at one time in one of the books of the Tamuli. Her people were bred to be the finest warriors in that world, and that made her what she was. She was pretty much normal, but she was built with certain triggers (to steal from the book) and when they had to chain her to the wall it was because those triggers got tripped. If it had been the other Atan, Engessa, they'd have probably had to chain him to the wall, too. Nothing to do with female-character portrayal. 'D be interested to hear your gripes about other characters, but that one doesn't convince me. Good luck battling the Evil Wicked Coldvirus! :) *****LADY JAGUAR***** Leader of the Cat People Lady in Green LGMCB, DHTBB "Meddle not in the affairs of cats for you are soft-skinned, and blind at night." ********************* ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 08:37:11 -0500 (EST) From: Rosario Holsen-Baker To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Eddings! :) Message-ID: On Tue, 19 Mar 1996, catwoman wrote: > > Velvet and Silk are two of my role models. Another one is Mona > >Mayfair, from Anne Rice's Mayfair witch series (Lasher and Taltos). :) > > Mona rocks! She's pretty darn nifty, but I liked her much better when she > came down off of her "slut" stage and was more or less normal. well, normal > for the Mayfair family anyways. She was interesting in her "slut" stage. I wish I had the opportunities she had with Michael Curry....I can think of a few.....makes me wish I'd been born in an incredibly inbred *large* family with a penchant for psychic powers. :) > > > ObMisty: There are no Mayfairs on Velgarth. :) > > ObMisty: Its a good thing there are no Mayfairs in Valdemar. :) > ObMisty: Mona Mayfair meets Firesong! And the world blows up. :) *****LADY JAGUAR***** Leader of the Cat People Lady in Green LGMCB, DHTBB "Meddle not in the affairs of cats for you are soft-skinned, and blind at night." ********************* ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 09:33:36 EST From: "Stormcloud" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Cool bookstores in NYC (NMLC) Message-ID: <569E5F7A93-+AT+-SIMCL.STJOHNS.EDU> I think it was Joan Ferguson who asked about cool bookstores in NYC? Well, I live here but I don't get to go to the city much, but my friend Mark does. I asked him for you, and this is what he said: ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- The Strand: which is the be all and end all in used book stores. One is located around 12th street and Broadway, and there's one near the south street sea port. On 18th street and 5th avenue there are about 600 million (ok, 5 or 6) used book stores, including a Barnes and Noble. The bookstores are on 18th right down the block from the barnes and noble on 5th. They're all right next door to each other, honest. I can't put my finger on other used book stores, but I know they exist all over the place, and a good yellow pages might help you out. There are a few good specifically science fiction book shops. Forbidden Planet which is located right across the street from the Strand on Broadway and 12th (maybe 13th) which has become more and more comic book oriented, but it still has a ton of books. The Science Fiction Shop, right off of Houston on, um, Sullivan or Thompson. I think it's on Thompson street, but you can call information for free to find out once you're near there. Science Fiction Mysteries and More, which is probably out of the way, I don't remember exactly where it is, but you can call information and then check any good area map and find out where it is. It's right near the water on the lower west side, and I think the 1 or the 9 train will take you near there. Anyway, that's my 2 cents. Oh, if you're into new books, there's a brand new Barnes and Noble on 16th street right off of Broadway across from Union Square. It's gorgeous. I has 4 floors, an sf&f section that more than rivals some of the so called "literature" sections of some of the book stores I've been in, a cafe (which is sort of passe now), a Software Etc, and a CD section. Honestly, as far as new book shops go, I love this place. As far as used book shops, I'd check out 18th street, you can easily waste a day in the 6 or so shops there, I've arrived sometimes around 3 or 4 only to walk out of the first store at closing time and having to go home without even having glanced at the others becuase they're all closed too. Anyway, I hope this helps. Mark ****** I hope it helps too! -+AT+->--- Stormcloud In the name One in Black of the Moon Jenna, the Misty maniac I'll punish you! jwil3969-+AT+-simcl.stjohns.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 15:14:44 GMT From: mel (Melanie Dymond Harper) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: ADMIN: the How and Why book of Listservers (was: Ohhhh Listmistress...) Message-ID: <9603191514.AA22571-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk> Sundancer asked: > I think this is vaguely general-interest... Mel, what other lists are > run from vanyel? There's the Lackey list, of course, and the Bujold list. There's also Dakota-L, which discusses Milestone comics. Then we have genuki-digest and genuki-index, which are the digest and index mirrors of soc.genealogy.uk+ireland -- these are the ones which will be moving soon. There's also a small discussion list for those involved in running the genealogy lists. M. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 15:32:31 GMT From: mel (Melanie Dymond Harper) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Lists Message-ID: <9603191532.AA23914-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk> > Oh, listmistress .... how, perchance, does one go about starting > a mailing list? And how many people on here would be interested > in a Pern/McCaffrey one if I figure it out? First, find somewhere to host it. Second, make sure they really will host it. Third, double-check the first two. Fourth, set it up, announce it online, and watch the rest of your life vanish :) (well, it's not quite that bad, but you see what I mean) There are not so very many mailing lists concerning subjects which already have a newsgroup (eg alt.fan.pern) where the list post-dates the newsgroup. (This list, for those who weren't aware, predates alt.books.m-lackey by, oh, some months.) What will make your proposed list different from a.f.pern? [Not an invitation for general on-group discussion, just a suggestion for something Jill may want to think about along with the general-interest answer to the question] Mel. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 15:36:24 +0000 From: "Charis Stewart" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Lists Message-ID: Jill Morrison wrote: > And how many people on here would be interested in a Pern/McCaffrey > one if I figure it out? > > I for one would be very interested. I have to admit that I joined this Mercedes Lackey list without having read much of her stuff. I enjoyed the stuff she wrote with McCaffrey and thought it would be a good way of learning more about her writting. It has been an experience! A McCaffrey list would be brill bur lets not exclude her SciFi, I love the Ship Who books to death. Charis Stewart CX910 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 08:41:38 -0700 (MST) From: 5INT627-+AT+-sc.maricopa.edu To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Eddings :) Message-ID: <01I2ILUCMA4M005JKX-+AT+-sc.maricopa.edu> The reason Eddings' names his serieses the way he does is actually in keeping with Byzantine styles. For example, the name Belgarian causes the books about his life to be called the Belgariad, just like the Emperor Alexis' biography is called the Alexiad. It's merely an ancient manner of titling biographical manuscripts, and since Eddings uses the style of a biographical manuscript, he used the ancient method of titling the series. IMNSHO, I like the names, I think they work extremely well for Eddings' work, but I have to agree that Misty's style would not be suited for such names:D OBMisty: There are no Belgariads in Valdemar ---EDWARD--- FORBES 2000 *OIB* looking for a cool identity:-) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 16:01:59 +0000 (GMT) From: Ian Macdonald To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: ADMIN: the How and Why book of Listservers (was: Ohhhh Listmistress...) Message-ID: On Mon, 18 Mar 1996, Melanie Dymond Harper wrote: > The 'random delay' aspect between you sending mail and it arriving here, and/or > me sending mail and it getting to you, depends on how your system is set up > (I know how mine is set up :)) and whether mail is directed to the machine > where you'll eventually read it, or to somewhere else, or what. Not much I can > do about it. > Another thing to remember is that all the mail going out on the mailing list is marked priority bulk. So any email that has a higher priority level gets processed first(almost anything else). Hence you get a block of messages that don't get processed until the mail server has finished processing the more important mail. Hope this helps Ian www.dcs.ed.ac.uk/home/ism/ < all of a sudden a whisper of sound occurs then the sound of a body hitting a keyboard. "Good thing we had darts", one of the white coated men said to the other as they dragged ian's body from the terminal.> < ism-+AT+-tardis.ed.ac.uk > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 10:13:49 CST From: Heather Watson To: Subject: Re: Eddings Message-ID: <19MAR96.11048953.0031.MUSIC-+AT+-NEMOMUS> "One wonders," Kenneth? Well, let one wonder no more. If Mirtai had been a man, I would still have thought the character was brainless and overdone, yes, even comical. And if Mirtai had been a man, no one would be holding Mirtai up as a "strong male," proving that Eddings can write decent male characters. Notice how no one ever debates that? You can ask if a writer does characters well, or if a writer does female characters well, but no one ever wants to know "How about her male characters? Are they any good?" Years of women's studies makes suspect that's because when many of us say "characters," we mean male characters. Females are still the exception, the Other. But that's another mailing list entirely. And you're right, there's nothing historical about Misty's females. But Misty admits that, inventing a society basically free of sexism, probably thanks to a reliable pre-industrial form of birth control, which I believe would have changed our world immesurably, had it existed outside of fantasy novels. Therefore, her "strong female" characters are at least internally consistent, even if they would never have existed inside a patriarchy. As I said, some women do adapt to patriarchy the way that Ehlanna et al did. My real objection is that it's made to seem like such a happy, peaceful state. Those big, sweet guys, they just go out there and do their knightly thing, and they preen and display, while the women sew and get rescued and giggle about how they really run the world. The knights grin sheepishly and love it, and everyone's happy. Hate to break it to you, but patriarchy isn't that user-friendly. Now, I didn't have these problems with the Belgariad, but I did with the Elenium and the Tamuli. I object to the implication that patriarchy isn't such a bad deal for women, as long as you have a man wrapped around your finger, because he'll do anything for you that really needs getting done. I object because it's still limiting, and I object because that's not the way it happens for most women. Name names? Well, I will, though the individual cases were not my original point. Eleanor of Aquitaine, Christine de Pizan, Hildegarde of Bingen, Trotula of Salerno, Elizabeth Tudor, Empress Theodora, and Isabella of Castille spring immediately to mind. Yes, these were exceptions, and that's the point. The point is that they did extraordinary things, the kind of things worthy of a heroic character, to survive in a patriarchal society. My real point, however, is that there were many, many women who did notable things within their limited spheres. Think for a while about how many responsibilities the lady of an 12th century manor had. A lot more than I do. Could she be a knight-worshipping dumbunny? Doubtful; she didn't have that luxury. She had to be smart, and organized, and skilled, and diplomatic. This is what I meant when I said it is challenging to give a realistic depiction of strong women in a historical context. Because we get warmfuzzies when we think about Strong Women like Kerowyn or Selenay who can do anything a man can, and we don't think about what it *means* to be strong, to be a survivor, to live life to your own advantage, to a woman in a male-dominated world. Being female in a patriarchal society presents unique problems. But that doesn't mean that remarkable women never existed on this planet until 1970. There were abbesses with more land and power than most noblemen, female missionaries who were advisors to kings. There were female troubadours and women who studied in Italian medical schools. There were widows in the Renaissance who controlled incredible financial empires. Mostly, there were wives and mothers and daughters of both the noble and the peasant classes who showed immense resourcefulness, skill, intellect, and courage in the face of a generally hostile world. That's something worth writing about. HTH ------------------------------ End of MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 426 *********************************