MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 443 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) casting lists by HATST5-+AT+-vms.cis.pitt.edu 2) Re: 3-fold Goddesses by The Mage of Green Silences 3) Re: Women's Lit by The Mage of Green Silences 4) Re: Jennifer Roberson by Heather Watson 5) Re:First Books by Lady Kayla 6) Re: Tarma by Heather Watson 7) re:Companion-names by dbackhau-+AT+-isou10.estec.esa.nl 8) re:Companion-names by dbackhau-+AT+-isou10.estec.esa.nl 9) Re: Women's Lit by dbackhau-+AT+-isou10.estec.esa.nl 10) Re: Beauty by Birgit Hanel 11) Re: Dragons by Birgit Hanel 12) Re: Companion-names by aaron douglas bilodeau 13) Re: Introduction and Re: S&S by aaron douglas bilodeau 14) Re: Tarma by "deanca" 15) Astrology on Velgarth by JWSCHM00-+AT+-UKCC.uky.edu 16) I'm gone *sob* by "Stormcloud" 17) words by "Stormcloud" 18) re:Companion-names by mel (Melanie Dymond Harper) 19) Re: Companion-names by "Stormcloud" 20) Re: 3-fold Goddesses by Marissa K Lingen 21) Re: Kings and consorts, was: Re: Random by Adrienne York 22) Re: Fire Rose (SPOILERS) by Adrienne York 23) Re: from the trenches by Lady Kayla 24) Re: Companion-names by "AMY E. BAUER" 25) Re: Dragons by "AMY E. BAUER" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 22:07:59 -0500 (EST) From: HATST5-+AT+-vms.cis.pitt.edu To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: casting lists Message-ID: <01I2VYNEYDIQ96Y53T-+AT+-vms.cis.pitt.edu> I'm sure by now all of the possible choices have been picked over and someone (or groups of someones) has decided what the ultimate cast list is. Well, I just subscribed. I don't know it. So, what is the cast list for the real people? Please, no anime. I hate it. Sorry to offend someone who loves it. Also, what's the current standpoint on who's lifeboned or not? Also (tedious, aren't I?) what is it with these groups I keep seeing everyone affiliated with? Mage war? Please have mercy on me and tell me what's going on!? Heather hatst5-+AT+-vms.cis.pitt.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 00:36:00 -0500 (EST) From: The Mage of Green Silences To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: 3-fold Goddesses Message-ID: On Wed, 27 Mar 1996, AMY E. BAUER wrote: > The Morrigan's one. I wish I could remember more. She was either > triple or double. The two I remember are the aspect who could be > seen washing blood stained clothing preceeding battles. If a warrior > recognised his clothing, he would die. The other was found among the > bodies in the aftermath. Her other aspect was a crow. Macha and > Nemain are the names, maybe? Ring a bell with anyone out there? > amy > Ok, first, the names are right (Macha and Nemain, the harbingers of war), but I don't think that were considered to be aspect of the Morrigu (Gaelic for Great Queen, BTW). They actually have a really cool origin myth which, IIRC, involves there mother being transformed into a horse, and a curse on the men of Ulster? Celtic mythos is not my area of special expertise, though. But anyway, anyway, I don't remember anything in my studies that indicated that the Morrigu was a trine. At least, not at the time when her worship was current and real. BTW, the "crone" goddess (or one of them, at least) in Celtic mythoi was Cerridwen. She was a death and magic goddess (which might explain the insistence of some neo-pagans for saying that Hecate is the crone of a trine). >From recary-+AT+-phoenix.Princeton.EDUFri Mar 29 00:07:10 1996 Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 11:05:22 GMT > Yes, she was -- Luna/Semele/Diana, the moon, Artemis, the huntress, and > Hecate (I think), the death-crone. > > Becky OK, first: Luna and Diana were Roman goddesses. They were eventually conflated to a single goddess with several aspects, but they each started out as a single goddess. Artemis was a Greek moon/hunt goddess who was also assimilated to the identity of Diana. Hecate was, to the best of my knowledge, never associated with Artemis or Diana. Hecate was a goddess of Death and Magic in the old Greek religions. BTW, she was not a crone. The association of Hecate with both Artemis and the crone image is something that modern writers and neo-pagans have come up with and does not reflect the real origins of either goddess. >From ROZANM-+AT+-webster.nlFri Mar 29 00:07:28 1996 Subject: Re: 3-fold Goddesses > Brigid is the goddes of fire, poetry, and mumble (I can't remember > the third, but I know there is one!) > The "They are Three" list (done from top of head, feel free to add > and repost) > The Norns are three > The Fates are three > Morrigan is three The Furies, Kali/Lakshmi/Sarasvati (at some level, maybe), the Sirens, Ninian/Vivian/Nimue (the Ladies of the Lake), and the Gorgons. However, note that, with one exception, these were all groups of three individuals, not a single individual with three aspects. The one exception is Kali/Lakshmi/Sarasvati (from Hindu) and, at the level where they are viewed as aspects of the same divinity, they are only 3 of the many aspects of Deva. >From gipple-+AT+-clark.eduFri Mar 29 00:07:46 1996 Subject: Re: 3-fold Goddesses > Not quite 3-fold, though. She was goddess of the moon, or rather _the_ > moon, and she did hunt (she was considdered quite tom-boyish). As to the > death part, I can remember two clear mentions of something similar. > First, some mortal woman claimed that she was greater than the mortal who > had given birth to Apollo (the sun) and Artemis (the moon) for she had > only one son and one daughter whereas the woman had seven sons and seven > daughters. This outraged the twins and they proceded to kill her > children. Apollo shot the 7 sons with 7 arrows of pain and Artemis shot > the 7 daughters with 7 arrows of sleep. The other mention was that > Artemis would hunt at night, and would sometimes stop to bathe in a cool > pond or brook. If a mortal hunter was (un)fortunate enough to see her > bathing, she would turn him into a stag and his dogs would bring him down. > All IIRC, of course. Your recollection is very accurate. You are thinking of the myth of Niobe. The ending of it is that Niobe was so grief stricken that she wept unendingly until the gods, in pity, turned her into a spring. The stag myth was one person (I seem to recall that the name was Laertes, but I don't trust that memory). Anyway, the point is that Artemis was never a "death goddess" per se. She was just a merciless, vengeful, moon-goddess. (She was also in the habit of killing any of her followers who lost their virginity, particularly those who lost it to her brother, Appollo.) May the seas be your solace and the forests a refuge for your spirit, Cennydd, Mage of the Green Silences. Eu guardo a luz das estrelas a alma de cada folha Sem folhas nao tem vida, Sem folhas nao tem nada, Salve as folhas! Kenneth Allen Hyde | No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife Univ. of Delaware | between the shoulder blades will seriously Dept. of Linguistics | cramp his style -- Old Jhereg proverb kenny-+AT+-strauss.udel.edu | A mind is a terrible toy to waste! -- Me ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 01:14:05 -0500 (EST) From: The Mage of Green Silences To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Women's Lit Message-ID: On Fri, 29 Mar 1996, Heather Watson wrote: > I had to read The Joy Luck Club for a class, so at least one professor > thought it was "real" as opposed to "women's" literature. > What's wrong with books about women and relationships? Why are they > inherently inferior? Why is it so much better to have a book where > women do "manly" things (aka By the Sword) than it is to have a book > about a woman's personal life (aka Beauty)? I don't see the need to > ghettoize anything that addresses women specifically. I know some > people do, but some people are full of crap. Play nice, sweetie. I don't think that there is anything wrong with books about women's relationships. Nor do a lot of Literary Scholars that I know. (Of course, I have my background in Comp. Lit.; traditional Eng. Lit. might have a different opinion.) Anyway, anyone who studies French lit. gets to read a lot of "women's" literature, simply because some of the greatest French writers wrote about women's relationships: Collette, Sand, Flaubert, Diderot, de Lafayette, etc. Oh, I'll admit, not all of the authors listed were regarded as "great" authors in their time, but they are all part of the canon now. Oh, and BTW, I like "Beauty" much better than I liked BTS. I also, preferred AotQ to AFl or LHM. I think that books about women's lives and relationships can be very good, although that subject matter does not make them inherently good. May the seas be your solace and the forests a refuge for your spirit, Cennydd, Mage of the Green Silences. Eu guardo a luz das estrelas a alma de cada folha Sem folhas nao tem vida, Sem folhas nao tem nada, Salve as folhas! Kenneth Allen Hyde | No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife Univ. of Delaware | between the shoulder blades will seriously Dept. of Linguistics | cramp his style -- Old Jhereg proverb kenny-+AT+-strauss.udel.edu | A mind is a terrible toy to waste! -- Me ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 01:13:06 CST From: Heather Watson To: Subject: Re: Jennifer Roberson Message-ID: <29MAR96.01315906.0069.MUSIC-+AT+-NEMOMUS> I disagree; the Tiger & Del books were in a very different style from the Cheysuli books and Lady of the Forest. I found the latter books a little dry myself -- not boring, exactly, but you kinda had to feel around for the excitement. The Sword books were much more high-intensity, and had a sense of humor. I wouldn't be afraid of them just because the Cheysuli chronicles weren't your cup of tea, if I were you. Which I'm not. And I could be totally wrong here. HTH ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 15:24:54 +0800 From: Lady Kayla To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re:First Books Message-ID: <199603290724.PAA15878-+AT+-janice.vianet.net.au> At 04:27 26/03/96 GMT, you wrote: >On Tue, 26 Mar 1996, Jill wrote: > >> Speaking of Robin McKinley, has anyone heard of a book she wrote >> called "Beauty"? I've been looking for it for years, and I've never, >> ever found it ... > >My public library had it, and it's wonderful. I love it, but I'm not >surprised it's hard to find, it's copyright 79 and the last reprint I >ever saw was in '85. You could try used book dealers on the web, to see >what you get.... >_____________________________________________________________________________ > I've seen a new edition out in bookstores in Australia in the last year or so....so it must be available somewhere! ^^^^^^^ |Don't despair| ( O O ) <| ? |> |Take heart| $ \ ~ / $ - |Life is to be lived| Kayla kayla-+AT+-vianet.net.au ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 01:27:14 CST From: Heather Watson To: Subject: Re: Tarma Message-ID: <29MAR96.01570383.0069.MUSIC-+AT+-NEMOMUS> Yes!!! Leslie Fish is *so* cool. I only met her once, and I have a character based off of her, too -- a jaded werewolf housewife (it's a long story ) I dunno about Cher for Tarma, though. I mean, if Misty says so, I can hardly argue (like I know more about it than the author), but Tarma is supposed to be lean and asexual. Cher's not exactly, um, lean and I NEVER thought of her as asexual. She's pretty sexy, if you ask me. HTH ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Mar 96 08:48:24 +0100 From: dbackhau-+AT+-isou10.estec.esa.nl To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: re:Companion-names Message-ID: <9603290748.AA05093-+AT+-isou10.estec.esa.nl> The WitchQueen wrote: > On Thu, 28 Mar 1996 Esmeralda Evensbane wrote: >> Hamadryad (Lordy where'd that one come from - Heinlein??) or Enolagay > IIRC, Enola Gay was the name of the plane that dropped one of the bombs > on Japan. Quite - I rest my case - would you want to go through the afterlife named after something like that - I think I'd re-register as Jane, or Ann, or maybe Beth - or ......... Esmeralda Evensbane (unaffiliated) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Mar 96 09:11:20 +0100 From: dbackhau-+AT+-isou10.estec.esa.nl To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: re:Companion-names Message-ID: <9603290811.AA05175-+AT+-isou10.estec.esa.nl> To Free Bard Oriole, for the below; > > I thought of changing the vowel, came up with Skof - whereupon my brain > > leapt to Scrofulous - is that a real word, I _think_ it is, with a somewhat > > unpleasant meaning? > Sofula/Scrofulous-n. tuberculosis of the lymph > glands, especially of the neck, with enlargement of the glands; > king's evil. many thanks - I _think_ I hear Edmund Blackadder referring to Baldrick as a scrofulous something-or-other. Anyhow, not a pleasant meaning. Esmeralda Evensbane (unaffiliated) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Mar 96 10:35:24 +0100 From: dbackhau-+AT+-isou10.estec.esa.nl To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Women's Lit Message-ID: <9603290935.AA05337-+AT+-isou10.estec.esa.nl> Lady Susanna wrote: > i don't see the need to lable books at all, that is a waste of time > > i am thinking of eddings books for instance which i have heard labled a mans > book or guy gavriel kay which has been labled various things, or of ru > emersons excellent night threads series which deals both with personal stuff > and manly stuff > > why lable if it is good, read it!! To which I say "hear, hear - right on" I find early McCaffrey good, but Dolphins of Pern - puhleeeeeeese, and Ru Emerson's Princess of Flames is brill - she spends the major part of the book fooling the vast majority of people that's she's a fella - and a troop leading, religious leader, man-with-stunning-mistress type of fella at that, but her other stuff failed to gel. I love Austen and Le Carre, I quite enjoy Clancy or Ludlum now and then, and Heyer - they're books to read and enjoy. I read it - there are then several options: 1. I grind to a halt after a few chapters and find it under a cushion a few months later; 2. I bolt through faster and faster, just to find out what happens, and never read it again; 3. I bolt through faster and faster, just to find out what happens, then immediately re-start (Arrows 1 I read three times on the trot); 4. I finish, put it away, then it comes knocking on my brain after 6 months/ a year/5 years - it's why I never throw a book away; 5. It becomes a "comfort book" - like an old cardigan, something to get me through a lonely evening, or a flu convalescence - something I know so well, I can just switch off and drift through; I have hundreds of books, and very few are single reads only - hell I can do an Arrows in an evening, without stretching - a Winds requires a total shut out of husband/chores/telly/conversation, but it's do-able - I need books, lots of books, shelves and shelves of books. Does anyone out there "read" their bookshelves? If I've 10 minutes to kill with a coffe, I just take up station in front of my book-wall, and browse - I like to know where they all are, remind myself of what's there - some people commune with nature, I commune with my books! whoof, shuttit EE, there's work awaiting, tot ziens Esmeralda Evensbane (unaffiliated) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 12:16:21 +0100 (CET) From: Birgit Hanel To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Beauty Message-ID: On Wed, 27 Mar 1996 EGLESTON-+AT+-bpl.org wrote: > ObMisty: For all that we know about the Star-Eyed, we don't hear much > about astronomical (or astrological) events on Velgarth, do we? (I > like ObMistys. Sometimes they start really good discussions. They are > a good thing.) > > Yoicks! and Away! > > Cindy > Well, there was Herald Kilchas (sp?) in MPrice (just read that one, finally!) who was a hobby-astronomer (or is it astronomist?) But you're right, there don't seem to be many astrologers, not even at the courts. I mean, it seems that most of the kingdoms of Velgarth have their own mages, but nobody who makes horocopes for the royals or nobles, or tries to tell what the future or fate will bring via watching the stars. I'm currently thinking of Wallensteins astrologist, heck, his name appears in almost every crossword-puzzle, but I don't remember it now, something with an i. Hmmm, seems as if Misty doesn't believe in astrology much. Now that I think about it, there's only one fantasy-novel in which astrology was kind of important, Marta Randall's Sword of Winter (sp?). Hasta luego Khenta* ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 12:30:10 +0100 (CET) From: Birgit Hanel To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Dragons Message-ID: On Thu, 28 Mar 1996, McCaffrey's White Dragon wrote: > On Wed, 27 Mar 1996, Birgit Hanel wrote: > > > On Tue, 26 Mar 1996, Rozanna McNeer wrote: > > > > > ObMisty: There don't seem to be any hill-people or dragons in > > > Velgarth.Lady Rozanna IV > > > Sand-cat Extraordinaire > > > > > > > Don't the cold-drakes (MPawn) count as dragons? > > And maybe the basilisks as dragon-related (sp?)/-relatives? > > > > Everyone knows that basilisks are more closely related to > congressional sub-committies! (figure it out for yourself) What is a congressional sub-committee? I don't remember any book where dragons form committees. Well, in Naomi Mitchison's Travel Light, perhaps, wasn't there a council or something, before they decided to take Halla on? And this Valkyrie made me think of Kero, somehow... Khenta Blaufalk aka the yet nameless Dragonlady ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 08:07:02 -0500 (EST) From: aaron douglas bilodeau To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Companion-names Message-ID: Here's a thought: What happens when a herald who was lifebonded comes back as a comapnion? Does the other come back as their chosen herald? Maybe a lifebonded companion-pairing? (Boy, would that be weird) I started thinking about this when I noticed a line or two that made me wonder if Yfandes could have been Shadowdancer, but after working through the logistics of it I discarded the idea. Still, does anyone else have any thoughts on the matter? Summerstorm ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 08:13:22 -0500 (EST) From: aaron douglas bilodeau To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Introduction and Re: S&S Message-ID: On Fri, 29 Mar 1996, Lara Keyser wrote: > Heyla all! > > I joined the list about a week ago and decided to delurk and introduce > myself. I was introduced to Misty's books last Fall by a friend, and have > been eagerly plowing through the Valdemar books nonstop and in order. I'm on > Winds of Change now, and just got my husband started with AOTH. By the end > of the Arrows trilogy I was completely hooked and started scouring the net > for anything Misty related. Having spent a lot of time in #valdemar on IRC, > frequenting Ian McDonald's Lackey web page, buying most of the Firebird > Music catalog, browsing through the newsgroup, subscribing to Queen's Own, > and joining this mailing list, it seems pretty clear that I'm a firmly > devoted fan now. When I'm not obsessing over ML, I spend my time raising > purebred Maine Coon Cats (check out my web page at > http://www.silcom.com/~liscoon/liscoon.html ) and working as a lab tech for > a supercomputer manufacturer. My other obsessions include anything Irish, > crocheting, photography, drawing, and making new friends. Anyway, that's me > in a nutshell :-). > Welcome! Your story sounds pretty similar to mine, actually. I'm up to Storm Warning, but I have yet to get anyone else hooked on the books. I'm wondering: did you read the books in chronological order of the story, or in the order they were written? Nice to see another kindred spirit! have fun. Summerstorm ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Mar 1996 08:20:26 +0000 From: "deanca" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Tarma Message-ID: <199603291317.IAA04296-+AT+-edweb.concord.wvnet.edu> > I dunno about Cher for Tarma, though. I mean, if Misty says so, I > can hardly argue (like I know more about it than the author), but Tarma > is supposed to be lean and asexual. Cher's not exactly, um, lean and I > NEVER thought of her as asexual. She's pretty sexy, if you ask me. Well, Tarma wasn't _always_ asexual, she was once perfectly normal, you know. mebbe if Cher _really toned down all that flaunting sexuality? I mean, Cher even looks right for Tarma once we add scars. I have seen Cher on screen when she wasn't being a sex object -Free Bard Oriole ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "You're SO nice! You're not good, you're not bad, you're just NICE! I'm not nice I'm not good, I'm just RIGHT!..." -The Witch from "Into The Woods" (written by Stephen Sondheim) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Mar 96 08:25:06 EST From: JWSCHM00-+AT+-UKCC.uky.edu To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Astrology on Velgarth Message-ID: <960329.082634.EST.JWSCHM00-+AT+-ukcc.uky.edu> Quick note replying to something someone said (can't quote with this editor--that I know of). Didn't Jadrek pose as an astrologer when Kethry, Tarma and he were plotting Char's downfall? Mistfox ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 09:42:15 EST From: "Stormcloud" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: I'm gone *sob* Message-ID: <9D0C2D0298-+AT+-SIMCL.STJOHNS.EDU> I'm going to go on postpone for a week during my spring break. Zhai'helleva! -+AT+->--- Stormcloud In the name One in Black of the Moon Jenna, the Misty maniac I'll punish you! jwil3969-+AT+-simcl.stjohns.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 09:57:44 EST From: "Stormcloud" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: words Message-ID: <9D4E5F4305-+AT+-SIMCL.STJOHNS.EDU> Esmerelda writes: > To Free Bard Oriole, for the below; > > > > I thought of changing the vowel, came up with Skof - whereupon my brain > > > leapt to Scrofulous - is that a real word, I _think_ it is, with a somewhat > > > unpleasant meaning? > > > Sofula/Scrofulous-n. tuberculosis of the lymph > > glands, especially of the neck, with enlargement of the glands; > > king's evil. > > many thanks - I _think_ I hear Edmund Blackadder referring to Baldrick > as a scrofulous something-or-other. Anyhow, not a pleasant meaning. > > Esmeralda Evensbane > (unaffiliated) NOW I know where I heard that word! :) -+AT+->--- Stormcloud In the name One in Black of the Moon Jenna, the Misty maniac I'll punish you! jwil3969-+AT+-simcl.stjohns.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 14:57:21 GMT From: mel (Melanie Dymond Harper) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: re:Companion-names Message-ID: <9603291457.AA05570-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk> > then again, if you'd got through life with a monniker like Ebenezer, or > Hamadryad (Lordy where'd that one come from - Heinlein??) or Enolagay (I > kid you not - I knew one - her parents had no idea where it came from), > maybe you'd keep your 'real' name to yourself! Hamadryad was a name used in Heinlein, yep (although the dryads are also mythological). Parents who didn't know where Enolagay came from should not have been allowed to breed (the Enola Gay was the plane which dropped the A-bomb on Hiroshima). :) Offtopic: anyone who's sent me personal mail in the last couple of days and not had a reply, sorry; I've been out of the office. I'll be out again on Monday and Tuesday, after that things should be more or less normal. Mel. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 10:03:19 EST From: "Stormcloud" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Companion-names Message-ID: <9D66511481-+AT+-SIMCL.STJOHNS.EDU> Summerstorm writes: > Here's a thought: What happens when a herald who was lifebonded > comes back as a comapnion? Does the other come back as their chosen > herald? Maybe a lifebonded companion-pairing? (Boy, would that be weird) > I started thinking about this when I noticed a line or two that > made me wonder if Yfandes could have been Shadowdancer, but after working > through the logistics of it I discarded the idea. Still, does anyone else > have any thoughts on the matter? I asked this question a while ago-- what if you come back as a Companion, and your lover while you were alive is reincarnated as your foal? You'd still have the same feeling for the person, wouldn't you? It opens up some interesting philosophical discussions. -+AT+->--- Stormcloud In the name One in Black of the Moon Jenna, the Misty maniac I'll punish you! jwil3969-+AT+-simcl.stjohns.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 09:11:03 -0600 (CST) From: Marissa K Lingen To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: 3-fold Goddesses Message-ID: <199603291511.JAA01264-+AT+-hermes.gac.edu> Sorry to have to argue here, but the Morrigan was part of a three-fold goddess combo. It was Morrigan/Morrigu, and I believe Macha, and Badhbh. Together they are known as Cathbodua. I know there's another myth about Nemain and Macha etc., but I specifically remember reading about the Cathbodua because I wrote it down very carefully so that I could use it properly in a story. Cathbodua was not a maiden/mother/crone combo (you're right; Cerridwen did the croning around there); they're all three battle goddesses, different aspects of battle. Morrigan is...er...shadow queen? And the others are battle fury and crow? me-+AT+-lab, book-+AT+-library and word-processor-+AT+-tiny little dorm room --Morticia > > On Wed, 27 Mar 1996, AMY E. BAUER wrote: > > > The Morrigan's one. I wish I could remember more. She was either > > triple or double. The two I remember are the aspect who could be > > seen washing blood stained clothing preceeding battles. If a warrior > > recognised his clothing, he would die. The other was found among the > > bodies in the aftermath. Her other aspect was a crow. Macha and > > Nemain are the names, maybe? Ring a bell with anyone out there? > > amy > > > > Ok, first, the names are right (Macha and Nemain, the harbingers of war), > but I don't think that were considered to be aspect of the Morrigu > (Gaelic for Great Queen, BTW). They actually have a really cool origin > myth which, IIRC, involves there mother being transformed into a horse, > and a curse on the men of Ulster? Celtic mythos is not my area of > special expertise, though. But anyway, anyway, I don't remember anything > in my studies that indicated that the Morrigu was a trine. At least, not > at the time when her worship was current and real. BTW, the "crone" > goddess (or one of them, at least) in Celtic mythoi was Cerridwen. She > was a death and magic goddess (which might explain the insistence of some > neo-pagans for saying that Hecate is the crone of a trine). > > >From recary-+AT+-phoenix.Princeton.EDUFri Mar 29 00:07:10 1996 > Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 11:05:22 GMT > > > Yes, she was -- Luna/Semele/Diana, the moon, Artemis, the huntress, and > > Hecate (I think), the death-crone. > > > > Becky > > OK, first: Luna and Diana were Roman goddesses. They were eventually > conflated to a single goddess with several aspects, but they each started > out as a single goddess. Artemis was a Greek moon/hunt goddess who was > also assimilated to the identity of Diana. Hecate was, to the best of my > knowledge, never associated with Artemis or Diana. Hecate was a goddess > of Death and Magic in the old Greek religions. BTW, she was not a > crone. The association of Hecate with both Artemis and the crone image > is something that modern writers and neo-pagans have come up with and > does not reflect the real origins of either goddess. > > > > >From ROZANM-+AT+-webster.nlFri Mar 29 00:07:28 1996 > Subject: Re: 3-fold Goddesses > > > > Brigid is the goddes of fire, poetry, and mumble (I can't remember > > the third, but I know there is one!) > > > > The "They are Three" list (done from top of head, feel free to add > > and repost) > > > The Norns are three > > The Fates are three > > Morrigan is three > > The Furies, Kali/Lakshmi/Sarasvati (at some level, maybe), the Sirens, > Ninian/Vivian/Nimue (the Ladies of the Lake), and the Gorgons. > > However, note that, with one exception, these were all groups of three > individuals, not a single individual with three aspects. The one > exception is Kali/Lakshmi/Sarasvati (from Hindu) and, at the level where > they are viewed as aspects of the same divinity, they are only 3 of > the many aspects of Deva. > > > > >From gipple-+AT+-clark.eduFri Mar 29 00:07:46 1996 > Subject: Re: 3-fold Goddesses > > > Not quite 3-fold, though. She was goddess of the moon, or rather _the_ > > moon, and she did hunt (she was considdered quite tom-boyish). As to the > > death part, I can remember two clear mentions of something similar. > > First, some mortal woman claimed that she was greater than the mortal who > > had given birth to Apollo (the sun) and Artemis (the moon) for she had > > only one son and one daughter whereas the woman had seven sons and seven > > daughters. This outraged the twins and they proceded to kill her > > children. Apollo shot the 7 sons with 7 arrows of pain and Artemis shot > > the 7 daughters with 7 arrows of sleep. The other mention was that > > Artemis would hunt at night, and would sometimes stop to bathe in a cool > > pond or brook. If a mortal hunter was (un)fortunate enough to see her > > bathing, she would turn him into a stag and his dogs would bring him down. > > All IIRC, of course. > > > Your recollection is very accurate. You are thinking of the myth of > Niobe. The ending of it is that Niobe was so grief stricken that she > wept unendingly until the gods, in pity, turned her into a spring. The > stag myth was one person (I seem to recall that the name was Laertes, but > I don't trust that memory). Anyway, the point is that Artemis was never > a "death goddess" per se. She was just a merciless, vengeful, > moon-goddess. (She was also in the habit of killing any of her followers > who lost their virginity, particularly those who lost it to her brother, > Appollo.) > > > > > May the seas be your solace and the forests a refuge for your spirit, > > Cennydd, > > Mage of the Green Silences. > > Eu guardo a luz das estrelas > a alma de cada folha > Sem folhas nao tem vida, > Sem folhas nao tem nada, > Salve as folhas! > > Kenneth Allen Hyde | No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife > Univ. of Delaware | between the shoulder blades will seriously > Dept. of Linguistics | cramp his style -- Old Jhereg proverb > kenny-+AT+-strauss.udel.edu | A mind is a terrible toy to waste! -- Me > > > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 10:28:03 -0500 (EST) From: Adrienne York To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Kings and consorts, was: Re: Random Message-ID: On Fri, 29 Mar 1996 Susan5683-+AT+-aol.com wrote: > regarding the order of descent > > until Elspeth was chosen she was heir presumptive by virtue of being Selenays > daugher but if had not been chosen would have gone to eldest chosen of the > blood line > > regarding twins, kris as elder is first in line but still heir presumptive > until actually chosen, if not chosen his sibling will be heir unless like > espeth steps aside or is not chosen Where does it say Kris was born first? Where, where, where, where? I would look for it myself, but I'm freaking out in school and I don't even know what book people believe this mysterious reference to birth order to be hanging out in. The only thing I remember is Elspeth saying, "one of them will be King, and the other King's Own." I think Misty just didn't say Monarch and MO or some copyeditor got snotty. > there, (feeling very smug) have answered whole question Not quite, but thanks for trying. ______________________________________________________________________________ L'Enfant Terrible The WitchQueen "You haven't found god yet? Why in havens' name not? God is everywhere... Have you tried buying a rubber chicken? Sometimes they have two gods." -Moi ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 10:34:09 -0500 (EST) From: Adrienne York To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Fire Rose (SPOILERS) Message-ID: On Fri, 29 Mar 1996 JSteinb103-+AT+-aol.com wrote: > I was disappointed when I realized it was basically a retelling of Beauty and > the Beast. Misty is usually so creative and has new stories to tell. This > was way too predictible. (Should I put on flame-proof armor now?) I also > had a problem with the use of magic for personal material gain. Beauty and the Beast is one of my favorite plots. I always adore hearing it over, and over again. I did think Misty could have written it a trifle more skillfully. (ie: the contrivedness of this plot was apparent. She usually makes you believe "it _could_ happen" and i was having a little trouble suspending disbelief) But it was only predictable because it was an old story. But it's a great old story, and it was told in a new way. Which is the most important part, because I believe that there are probably a limited numer of plots in the world, and it's really how well you can say the same old thing that matters to me. What's wrong with using magic for personal gain? Does one deride an artist for selling her work, or a writer for selling her books? How about an actor, for selling their ability to get people to believe something that isn't true, momentarily? Or a scientist who works for a commercial company? IMO, capitalism is all about getting other people to pay you to do what you want. If what you want to do is magic, why not earn money as you do so? ______________________________________________________________________________ L'Enfant Terrible The WitchQueen "You haven't found god yet? Why in havens' name not? God is everywhere... Have you tried buying a rubber chicken? Sometimes they have two gods." -Moi ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Mar 1996 00:07:58 +0800 From: Lady Kayla To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: from the trenches Message-ID: <199603291607.AAA20649-+AT+-janice.vianet.net.au> At 07:06 27/03/96 GMT, you wrote: >Metaphorically speaking at least. I just finished spenidng on foal >team, and thought that I'd give some input since I've been >"eavesdropping" all day. > I don't know if I'm in synch with the original question, but am >the only one here who was introduced to fantasy via Tolkien and >Lewis? Maybe ... > Since I am new, who's been cast thus far besides Kerowin and >Tarma? I thought I had more to say, but the life of a vet student >.. :) > >amy >ObMisty I'm just curious, any reviews of The Fire Rose? > > I was introduced to fantasy at age 7 by a gift of The Hobbit for my birthday from a fantasy loving uncle (he named one of his sons Piers Anthony!!) and I never looked back. I loved the Narnia series as a kid and intend to introduce them to my own children as soon as is possible (they are 5 and 2). I have therefore (by my calculations) been reading fantasy for 23 years or so now and I am rapidly running out of good authors! I read waaaaayyyyy too fast (even tho I'll read a book several times) and I tend to buy a couple of books a week. So if anybody knows of a GOOD NEW author please let me know! Please, please, please!!!!!<------5 *grin* ^^^^^^^ |Don't despair| ( O O ) <| ? |> |Take heart| $ \ ~ / $ - |Life is to be lived| Kayla kayla-+AT+-vianet.net.au ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 11:09:43 EST From: "AMY E. BAUER" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Companion-names Message-ID: <5550A7772B4-+AT+-zebu.cvm.msu.edu> I was wondering the same thing! Actually, my thoughts were along the lines of, "Would Tala (Talia) and Diryk (Dirk, feel free to vary the names) be lifebonded as companions as well as as people. If this were the case, could one half of a lifebonded pair opt to hold off on reincarnation until the other could join them? amy ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 11:11:43 EST From: "AMY E. BAUER" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Dragons Message-ID: <55512F44E53-+AT+-zebu.cvm.msu.edu> I don't know if any of you read comic books, but in Books of Magic (I forget the issue number) there's a group of dragons playing go fish. I'm sure that they'd be equally as adept at politics :) amy ------------------------------ End of MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 443 *********************************