MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 471 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re: Tarma in Winds series by mealink-+AT+-syd.au.swissbank.com (Kerry Mealing) 2) Re: book lovers by Becky Anne Christensen 3) Re: Candlemark thread by Chelsea Amberle Fischer 4) 3 Short Comments by Heather Watson 5) Re: Katherine Kurtz by JSteinb103-+AT+-aol.com 6) Re: DUMB QUESTION/Please be kind by Starlight-+AT+-eden.rutgers.edu 7) Re: Skif's gifts by Lisa Gregory 8) Starblade- villain? by Raingcats-+AT+-aol.com 9) Re: Greeting by Becky Anne Christensen 10) Re: Sexism by mealink-+AT+-syd.au.swissbank.com (Kerry Mealing) 11) Re: Casting by LSFG20A-+AT+-prodigy.com (MS KIM H MILLER) 12) Re: Stef's duties was re: Companion-names (fwd) by "Kristin A. Ruhle" 13) Re: warnings by A giant telepathic squid 14) Re: Stef's duties was re: Companion-names by Lara Keyser 15) Re: Talamir- Previous Queen's Own by A giant telepathic squid 16) Re: Book lovers and Audiobooks by mel (Melanie Dymond Harper) 17) Tolkien by mel (Melanie Dymond Harper) 18) Re: Sexism by mel (Melanie Dymond Harper) 19) Re: Katherine Kurtz by Catherine Osborne 20) Insanity (Hadanelith) by Rosario Holsen-Baker 21) Re: warnings by Rosario Holsen-Baker ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 11 Apr 96 11:30:54 EST From: mealink-+AT+-syd.au.swissbank.com (Kerry Mealing) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Tarma in Winds series Message-ID: <9604110130.AA06690-+AT+-syd.au.swissbank.com> McCaffrey's White dragon wrote: > I saw this remark the first time through and, after a few minutes of > deliberation, came to the same conclusion. It did bug me a little, Tarma > coincidentally showing up there and all, but I finally realized the > following: being sword-sworn does have travel benefits (they can walk the > moon-paths, can't they?); Well, yes, I think/thought that it is her as well. But I think you're overlooking some stuff here - she doesn't need the travel benefits - when she appears as a Kalendral (sp? Don't crucify me.. *grin*) she's a spirit - dead. You can tell, apart from how old she'd be, because Kalendral only wear the veils to mask their identity after they're dead.. (Mask their identity from -whom- is another question, but we'll put that on one side for now.) Cheers, Kerry. "So, I think you're pretty tough, don't I?" -Daffy Duck ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 18:56:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Becky Anne Christensen To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: book lovers Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Apr 1996, Lady 'Reesa And Tina wrote: > >She said that they(fantasy) brought down your thinking level, that you > >didn't have to think about them, just like watching TV > > How could fantsy possibly bring your thinking level down? > It's helped me make better judgement calls, improved my self-esteem > and made me realize that my dreams are worth the time and work > it will take for them to come true. > > >and nothing is at all possible in our world, > >you know, goblins, witches, elfs, and that sort of thing." > > Not possible! What does she mean, NOT POSSIBLE! Give me > this woman's address! I shall have to present myself at her door > and ask her if she thinks I'm not possible! Oh Korendil, would > you care to come with me? We'll show her NOT POSSIBLE! > > ~~~~~~~~~~Lady 'Reesa~~~~~~~~~~mrtmh-+AT+-primenet.com~~~~~~~~~~~) I'd love to, but unfortunately she is my teacher whoo is giving me the grade I will need to get into college. I would rather not have her detest me until after I have passed the class wiht an A, and she can't change it. She really is very dumb about some things. Especially the thinking level thing, that was just a purely stupid comment, and it was obvious that she had never read any good fantasy (MERCEDES LACKEY!!) I almost feel sorry for her, almost. Lady Becky Impossible, for a plain yellow pumpkin to become a golden carriage. Impossible for a plain country bumpkin and a prince to join in marriage And four white mice will never be four white horses Such fal de rah and fiddle dee dee of course is Impossible, for the world is full of zanies and fools Who don't believe in sensible rules And don't believe what sensible people say These dewey eyed dotes keep building up impossible dreams impossible hopes IMPOSSIBLE......things are happening eeeeeeeeveryyyyyyyydaaaaaaay! It's possible.....it's possible It's pooooooooooooooooooosible! --Rodgers and Hammersteines Cinderella Sorry for the long sig, I thought it an appropriate song considering the post. I can't hear the word impossible without bursting into song since we did this musical at school. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 20:53:03 -0500 (CDT) From: Chelsea Amberle Fischer To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Candlemark thread Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Apr 1996, Tensen wrote: > course there were also 12 hour candles. But seeing as how Misty either > goofed, or had the editors change it on her, she probably meant it as 1 > hour.. IIRC, somewhere in LHM it says that there are 24 candlemarks in a day, so that gvies slightly more credence to the theory that 1 candlemark = 1 hour... I say slightly because why should Velgarth have the same length day as we do, either?? Oh, well... I just try to think of a candlemark as 1/24 of a day.... sometimes that translates in my head to being an hour, other times it doesn't ....... go figger... ---Chelsea **************************************** Pukka pukka pukka pukka squeetily boink. ---Wembley Fraggle **************************************** caf0001-+AT+-jove.acs.unt.edu **************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 21:30:21 CST From: Heather Watson To: Subject: 3 Short Comments Message-ID: <10APR96.23226530.0178.MUSIC-+AT+-NEMOMUS> 1) Wow! Did that Talamir question generate about a billion responses. I have to say that I've never seen so many people on this list answer the same question at once. My screen, on the subject line had Talamir etc. printed about eight times in a row. Golly. 2) About the villain debate: my she'enedra once commented that most Misty villains are of the required sexual orientation to be attracted to the main character. By golly, she's right. Ancar wanted Elspeth. Leareth (?) wanted Vanyel. Thalkharsh wanted Kethry. Faye wanted Deke. The bad chick elf wanted Eric. It's just kind of a trend. Guess it's supposed to make them scarier. 3) AAAAARRRRRGGGGGGHHHHHHH!!!!! Sandy!!!!!! How could you, Sandy? Didn't like Swordspoint??? My favorite book in all the world??? Didn't like Alec? or Richard? It's the only book that I've read upward of twenty times that STILL reaches through my ribcage and won't let go of me, every single time. I would lay down my life to be able to write like Ellen Kushner. To each her own, I guess. There is no one true way and all. Excuse me, I'm going to go re-read Swordspoint now. HTH Ladies' Aid & Armor Society ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 22:49:52 -0400 From: JSteinb103-+AT+-aol.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Katherine Kurtz Message-ID: <960410224952_373180036-+AT+-mail06> On 10 April 1996 Catherine Osborne wrote: >I'm wondering what everyone else thinks of her? Also, does anyone know where I can find a complete and current bibliography? (If there are web sites out there, I haven't been able to find them....) I *really* like her books. She's currently done 12 novels and one book of short stories in the Deryni universe, plus a grimoire of Deryni Magic. Also Lammas Night, about a coven of witches in England during WWII, using their magic against Hitler. And four books in The Adept series, a collaboration with Deborah Turner Harris, based in 1990's Scotland. Catherine, I'll e-mail you titles separately, to save list space. My major gripe with Kurtz (which doesn't stop me from recommending her) is that she has no "schaych" characters in the Deryni universe, and the one lesbian character in the Adept series apparently has her sexuality confused because she was a man in so many of her past lives! I don't know about Web sites, but there is a usenet newsgroup: alt.books.deryni with an extensive FAQ. If anyone wants a copy, e-mail me privately. Julia JSteinb103-+AT+-aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Apr 96 23:03:55 EDT From: Starlight-+AT+-eden.rutgers.edu To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: DUMB QUESTION/Please be kind Message-ID: |I know this is a dumb question, but I'm going to ask anyway. | |Doesn't Vanyel and Stef come back in one of the newer books? |If so, which one? | IIRC, they come back for a brief time in Winds of Fury:) Starlight debeng-+AT+-eden.rutgers.edu *********************************************** Echoes of an ancient time live inside your mind Why don't you set them free Let your vision breathe... ---- David Arkenstone *********************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 23:43:31 -0400 From: Lisa Gregory To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Skif's gifts Message-ID: <199604110343.XAA27844-+AT+-gramercy.ios.com> > IIRC, he has a bit of mindspeech, and he used it to talk to Nyara >while they were riding out through the forest so Nyara could sneak back >into Mornlithes castle type thing. He also mentioned that he couldn't do >it very well when he was telling Talia about the accident he was in >during his internship. > >Mannaheim I always wondered about that accident. Even if Skif couldn't mindspeak to Dirk, why couldn't Cymry call...whoever Dirk's Companion is (I'm blanking)? No matter how much the Companions want the Heralds to be independent, I think a situation like the one he was in calls for a little help. I considered that maybe Cymry isn't very good at Mindspeech, but if a Companion were to be unable to talk with other Companions (as well as humans), that would mean that he/she would be totally closed off from efficient communication with anyone. That sounds awfully lonely, and not terribly conducive to contributing to the whole Herald/Companion group. Maybe they fell and by the time Cymry had recovered enough to call for help, Dirk and his Companion were out of range. Lisa ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 23:45:48 -0400 From: Raingcats-+AT+-aol.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Starblade- villain? Message-ID: <960410234545_467145578-+AT+-emout08.mail.aol.com> > who are principle characters are villains: Mornelithe, >Darkwind's dad, Since when might I ask has Darkwind's dad been considered an enemy aka villain? Yes, he screwed up the heartstone but that was FALCONSBANE'S doing NOT his. Yes, he was stupid enough to be caught but we all have our off days right? Heck, look at Vanyel. When he was still coping with 'Lendel's death and his new gifts he ran off like an idiot. Would you call Vanyel an enemy aka villain? I'm sorry, but when I read that Darkwind's dad was considered a villain I flipped. What did he DO? I mean look, even when he was being controlled by Falconsbane he was pushing his son away for his son's own GOOD so Darkwind wouldn't get caught by Falconsbane. Does anybody else feel this way or does anybody else agree that Starblade is a villain? Zhai'helleva! Lady Moonsong An Honorable Lady In Greenish Black An Honorable One In Blackish Green Raingcats-+AT+-aol.com "It's easy to identify people who can't count to 10. They're in front of you in the supermarket express lane." - June Henderson ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 21:07:44 -0700 (PDT) From: Becky Anne Christensen To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Greeting Message-ID: > [I give this little > bio simply because I consider it proper netiquette to introduce oneself] > > Thank you very much. It always confuses me when new people pop up, and make no mention at all of, "Hi, I'm new", it throws me off, because I think "Wait a second, who is this person, am I losing my mind, how long have they been here! Where did the come from!!!!!Should I know who this is?" Anyways, welcome and hi, and you're lucky to get book discounts at Waldenbooks. Lady Becky The more that you read, the more things you will know. The more that you learn, the more places you'll go. --Dr. Suess ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Apr 96 14:35:45 EST From: mealink-+AT+-syd.au.swissbank.com (Kerry Mealing) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Sexism Message-ID: <9604110435.AA09704-+AT+-syd.au.swissbank.com> Heya Heather! Let me first issue lots of IMHO's, because some of what I've written was fairly .. strong and I'm not going to try to IMHO all the way through it. :) Heather Watson (HTH) wrote: > I just know I'm going to get taken to task for this, but I can't resist, > since the subject of sexism in Misty's work came up. I think all the > really interesting, multi-faceted characters (with a few exceptions) are > male. The women are often just Strong Women (TM). Au contraire. I read through your post going "Uh huh. Yeup. Okay. Right." I think there is a flip side of course, but you certainly hit the nail on the head with the points you made. > Among the Strong Women, I think Diana and Savil are the outstanding > specimens of the species. Di is no more heroic than she has to be. She > drinks too much when she's under stress, she has a problem with > committment, and she has a great sense of humor. Savil, too, has a > sense of humor, and she's sometimes awkward around people. As she gets > older, she comes to rely more and more on Vanyel, which is nice, because > so often Strong Women don't ask anyone for help. Definitely. Absolutely. The couple of pages where Savil tells Van her theory about the Herald-Mages being murdered and admits to being scared; and then her murder, broke my heart. More so than Van's death I think. She died alone, totally - not even her companion Kellan with her. She wasn't even dying -for- something, in a final strike. She was old and fragile and attacked in her place of refuge in a way that she had no hope of fending off. And even then she tried. The call for help, the broken dagger (how the heck do you fight something that snaps a dagger blade when you strike it).. She must have known she couldn't survive & known Van couldn't get to her in time.. And really, when you think about it, all the problems that Van had, Savil must have had as well. The sheer amount of mage-power she had, the upbringing she escaped from etc. And she didn't even have a 'Lendel or a Stefan as a comfort. But I digress.. > Now, the others. While I like Tarma and Kethry, it kind of irks me > that they always have the right answer to every problem. Other people > get into trouble; Tarma and Kethry come in and fix things. The short > stories are especially terrible about this; T&K always know exactly what > to do. There's never any angst, any indecision, any regret, any > disagreement between the two of them as to how to handle something. > They always know what's right, and they always do the Right Thing > without a qualm. Kethry was raised by a brother with no morals at all. > How did she immediately turn into a paragon of justice and virtue, > dedicated to the White Winds "but that would be wrong" ethos? Things > just seem to come easily for Tarma & Kethry, because they're Strong. > Oh, there's physical danger aplenty, but no arguments, no mistakes, no > problems that aren't the fault of some outside source. Granted.. In Tarma's case, it's understandable. As the sword-sworn analogy goes, she's like a sword - hard and strong and unyielding. No indecisiveness, no, dare I say it - sophistication. Yes, she's well-read and she can argue with that priest about good/evil until the cows come home - but she's not well-thought - everything's cut & dried, black & white - she *argues*, not discusses. Kethry - I can understand her getting the morals. She was used by her brother & victimized - if the victim survives, that type of thing can result in the victim going to the other end of the scale. Current example - kids from homes with very strict parents, tend to grow up to be quite liberal with their own kids. But she does face her own demons - and that brings up a point that I hate about some fantasy novels - again and again, they reinforce the notion that if you face your demons, they'll disappear. This isn't a bad thing in itself, but they never mention the situation where your personal demons -aren't- going to disappear just because you face them & where they -don't- turn out to be mere shadows when confronted. In terms of why Keth & Tarma together didn't face that many grey issues, I guess the only answer is that they're mercs for hire for small jobs for most of the time - they're not responsible for large groups of people and the grey issues don't come their way simply because of their lifestyle. (All right, that's a cop-out as well, and I don't like it either, but it's in keeping with the bulk of the early Sword & Sorcery characterizations). > Kerowyn had a lot of problems, too, but they were always the due to > some external situation. She was pretty much a Strong Warrior Woman. > Actually, I find her a pretty sympathetic character now, mostly due to > Meg Davis' song "Women of Steel," which is a sad (I think) song about > how lonely it can be to be the one who's always Strong, afraid to show > any sign of weakness or need. I now see Kerowyn as an essentially > tragic figure through most of By the Sword, but I think that has more to > do with Meg Davis' character insights than Mercedes Lackey's. There's a line in a book or song somewhere where the character basically screams "Why do I always have to be the strong one? When do I get to be human?" - and it is a very lonely thing.. I don't see Kerowyn as that type, myself. I wasn't that keen on Kerowyn's ride (What -was- the name of that book?) - it just didn't grab me - interesting characters are epic - they've got flaws and contradictions and all the rest. Kerowyn didn't have that quality, really. > Selenay and Solaris, good Lord. Upright, decent, honest, > responsible, self-assured, dedicated, willpower coming out their ears. Yawn. Selenay - "Here Talia, I don't have time to raise my kid or make the effort to figure out what to do with her. Fix it for me, will ya?" Solaris... I'd like to see more of - for some reason she reminds me of Babylon 5's Delenn - and that women is anything by simple. > And then we have the raft of minor women who are all in all Strong, > the typical Good Herald. Their morals are high, they say the right > thing, they prove that Women Can Do Anything. Keren, Idra, Lissa, > Dawnfire, the list goes on. Essentially boring, essentially > predictable, but unarguably Strong. And we have Really Bad women, bad > because all Misty villains are bad: Faye, Hulda. Why are they bad? Who > knows. Cause they're the bad guy. Depth? Forget it. Hey, come on. > They're bad. What more do you need to know? And we have the women who > are to be disdained for not being Strong Enough. Kerowyn's mother, who > couldn't cut it on the Plains. Van's mother, who was a flake. And, your point? She wasn't disdained.. And more, she grew and matured into someone who was pretty darn nice. The way she accepted Stefan, for example & the way she only told her female court that Van's first lover had tragically died, rather than sweeping it under the carpet. And the way she treated Yfandes as a lady - treated her better than Van did, in some ways. Sure, she wasn't portrayed as a Strong woman, but so what? The very definition of "Strong Women" is biased towards masculine acting or 'masculine-skilled' women. Switching series for a moment, even Lady Mara (of Raymond E. Feist & Janny Wurts series fame), who I consider a very strong women, excelled in a traditionally male arena. And I think that's the whole problem with the definition really - and it stems from the origin of Sword & Sorcery - to be considered "Strong", a women has to excel in a male arena. And that, I think is what you're complaining about (and quite rightly!) - but it's not a flaw in Misty's writing so much as it is in society's perceptions. Name me one female character from any series that you'd classify as strong, who doesn't excel in what would archaically be considered male activities. And Faye's easy to figure out. She's in it for the Power and Eternal Life. I'd go for extended life myself if I could do it without hurting others simply because there's so much to see and do that one life can never be enough. And if an amoral person doesn't fear capture and retribution, then they're going to tend to do whatever they feel like; and Faye does that. Wasn't someone complaining a little while ago that female villains never get portrayed without having sex all over the place as well? While I would agree that 'never' & 'always', are bad, certainly it doesn't seem unreasonable. The traditional essence of a female [or any good] villain is that she is strong, as well as knowing what she wants - with that in mind, why shouldn't she take sexual relations when she wants them? Male villains in books typically do. (I won't go into the fact that I think it's slightly freudian on the part of male authors who always portray female villians as sexually dominating / overpowering -> Female + Sexually in control = Villain? Uh huh. Right. Surrrre.) > All the court women that we see giggling and fussing over Vanyel, or being > scheming, vicious, catty backstabbers like Dirk's old girlfriend. We > never see a good feminine courtier. In fact, in Misty's world, you can > prove that you're a Good Woman by plain dressing and plain speech, > showing your disdain for girl stuff like pretty dresses and "My Lady's > Eyes." By, in effect, allying with the men inasmuch as possible, and > doing what you can to offset this unfortunate condition of femaleness. Courtiers almost by definition are shallow. There aren't any strong male courtiers in Misty's books either. Consider Lady wazzername (Cathan? Horseface?) and the other Lady ruler in Selenay's council - they're strong women, though whether or not you'd consider them feminine depends on your definition of feminine I guess. (And don't say dainty-looking, breath-takingly beautiful with perfect manners because Kethry has those attributes, it's just that her personality doesn't align). > I think that was the bravest thing in the world. Here's this young > girl who, totally without experience or preparation, goes through a > horrifying experience. When it's over, she wants to act. No matter how > stupid or trivial it may seem, Dierna takes control of her life in the > only way she possibly can right now: she refuses to let them have her > things. She was unable to protect herself, totally helpless, but by > God, she's able to save the dishes, and this time be damned if she's > going to let them have their way. This is not a heroic woman, but she > does what she can to calm herself down, stand up for herself, and make > it clear that no one takes anything from Dierna if there's one little > thing she can do about it. That's a kind of strength, too, and we see > one glimmer of it in this fluttery, feminine woman, though Kerowyn can't > recognize any kind of courage except her own. Yes Yes Yes! She very much typifies the pioneer woman I thought. Practical to the core. And that's never a bad thing. > But most of the time, feminine women don't do anything but whine and > preen and get people into trouble and get scoffed at by the Strong > characters. Sexist? I think so. A woman can be competent, but only as > long as she doesn't for one second act like a woman or identify herself > withthe concerns of most women in her society. Sure, some women can > fall under that Strong heading, but do all of them really have to? Is > it necessary to imply that anyone who doesn't is just a loser? Hmmm, I tend to disagree with the implication that Misty's society is like that, but I can't think why offhand.. Certainly, I have trouble thinking of any. What about the healers? Lady Cinnamon of BG (I'm sure that's not her name, just how I remember it), Dirk's mother etc. Come to think of it, and this isn't meant to be offensive, I'm not sure that your perceptions aren't sexist. Why is Lissa not identifying with the concerns of her society? Aren't female groups of guards concerns? Why is N---- (the young female engineer) not feminine, simply because she's interested in a traditionally male field.. Why is Dawnfire not feminine - because she's a Scout?? Frankly, I'd say that the whole 'feminine' bit as you've definied it is pretty damn limiting - there's not that much option to be a Strong Women in what you are class as feminine activities IN a fantasy world - a) They won't get written about, because such books tend not to concentrate on such activities because people want to read about conflict etc and b) I don't subscribe to the feminine is as feminine does bit. It's personality and grace and style. Not activities. I've seen some pretty darn feminine (and gorgeous etc) computer consultants and business analysts and the rest. > And the Earth books are chock full of plain old boring Strong Women. > Beth? There's nothing *to* Beth. Kory is a marvelous character, and > Eric is full of contradictions and hangups and quirks. Beth is just > Strong. And Elisabeth, the black woman who adopts Kayla, is another one > of those who's always right about everything. I just can't get > interested in a character who's always going to be Strong and Correct. *cough* Errr.. Remember Rhy----, wazzername. The half-elven female bad-girl mage in KoGaS? Now there's an interesting grey character.. I'm dying to get hold of Summoned_To_Tourney. Even better, was that she didn't die. Hmmm, Seanna - remember we were talking about the tripod-type relationships? I was just rereading Anne McCaffrey's To_Ride_Pegasus (written a couple of decades or so ago) and there's a similar relationship there.. (or at least all the stormy prelude to the formation of such a relationship). My favourite female character was Shar[mali] from Chrome Circle actually. Not only did she foul up, but took steps to fix it and even better, events got out of her control. (The last sounds horrible, but what you were talking about above with Keth & Tarma is partly the result of them being in complete control all the time). > I don't know if Mercedes Lackey is just uncomfortable writing about > women and unsure how to give them depth, or if she's so relentlessly > trying to make a politically correct point about feminism that she feels > as though one sign of weakness will make her characters no better than > the sighing, fainting princesses of early Swords and Sorcery. But after > years of women's studies classes, I've become convinced that the > attitude that traditonally male attributes are desirable in both men and > women while traditionally female attributes are always weak and > undesirable is initsef sexist. > And after many, many years of reading > fantasy, I've become *very* convenced that characters who are always > competent, wise, and ethical are dull, dull, dull. This last, I agree with. That Misty's character's aren't feminine, I'm not convinced of. Shar's feminine down to the bone, but spends her time through Chrome_Circle beating the masculine ones at their own game. (And it was nice to see in that book that good 'ole male Tannim didn't pull their collective chestnuts out of the fire.. Admittedly, a male elder dragon did, but I think male/female etc becomes a little less important when you start talking about characters on the power level of elder dragons). Whew.. Lotsa comments there, some perhaps not too well written, but I'm at work so I've been commenting on and off as ideas occur to me for most of the day. :) Cheers, Kerry. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 00:56:17 EDT From: LSFG20A-+AT+-prodigy.com (MS KIM H MILLER) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Casting Message-ID: <097.05700980.LSFG20A-+AT+-prodigy.com> I have had the most frightening idea in my mind for over a week now - and I blame you all! You started the casting conversation and now you will pay. And the role of Lady Treesa will be played by ... TAMMY FAY BAKKER! Aaaauuuugggghhhhh!!!!! You try having pictures of Tammy Fay in your mind for a week. Of all the casting ideas I have seen posted around on this list, Tammy Fay is truly the most frightenening (IMHO). Bye for now, Lady Kim ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 22:24:14 -0700 (PDT) From: "Kristin A. Ruhle" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Stef's duties was re: Companion-names (fwd) Message-ID: <199604110524.AA27343-+AT+-> > > Sorry, have to forward this, 'cause silly computer said I'm not > subscribed and bounced, d*** it... > > > > Maybe he's working magic, too. In WFury he tells Skif and Nyara about the > grove he had shaped, IIRC. > The reason that made me think of Stefen having some mage-pontential was > this incident with Yfandes at the end of MPrice, when he pulls the > leech-dagger or -arrow out of her side. How could he do that when it took > a Hawkbrother-Adept to remove the leech-blade from Van's shoulder even Adept-class Savil could do that>? > > Going off for a veeeeeery long weekend (Easter), which means 4 days > without Net- or eMail-access > > Khenta B. > I think it's more the LIFEBOND than mage-potential on Stefen's part. He could share in a LOT of Vanyel just from that. Vanyel's mage potential may have helped when Tylendel was drawing on Vanyel, but did Tylendel know Vanyel had Mage-Gift in potential? The way I read MPawn, Tylendel was drawing strength form Vanyel (to build the Gate, etc) through the lifebond. In MPrice, Stefen may have done likewise. Kristin ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 01:50:34 -0400 (EDT) From: A giant telepathic squid To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: warnings Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Apr 1996, Rosario Holsen-Baker wrote: > Monolith wrote: > > > Its funny, Mannheim, I just finished reading the second griffin book and > > discovered that the main vaillin isn't gay or homophobic... at least not > > mostly. He's more like a "normal" hetero-sexual. > > > I don't know about "normal," but he definitly wasn't homosexual, > and there weren't any signs of him being homophobic. My take on it was > that he was sort of misogynistic. Or maybe he was just plain insane. > You mean there's a difference? ObMisty: I have just gotten my little sister hooked on _Arrows_. (To let you know what kind of battle this was, her major reading is Seventeen, and her major source of entertainment is 90210. Ye gods!) I am therefore quite proud of myself and hereby do award to me the Velgarthian Medal of Honor for heroic persistence in the face of overwhelming odds. Songwind ---------- With my luck, the entrance exam to Heaven will have logarithms on it. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 22:57:00 -0700 From: Lara Keyser To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Stef's duties was re: Companion-names Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19960411055700.00678d28-+AT+-silcom.com> At 04:34 AM 4/11/96 +0100, you wrote: >This may be really mean, but whoever edits those books certainly doesn't catch >everything. She/He/It misses an awful lot of really blatant stuff. Such as >Tarlia in one of the Arrows books, Tharma or Tahrma (i don't have the book with >me) in one of the V&H books. Now, mind you, I'm an editor at heart and I miss >stuff when I'm editing, but some of it seems just a little obvious even to me. > >My little rant is over, although I must say that every once in a while, I'm >temopted to go over the books, edit them and send them back to DAW so they can >fix it or something in the next reprint. *sigh* Sorry. > >Shadowspun I have to pipe up and agree with Shadowspun here. I remember reading in an author's note by Piers Anthony (why is there so much negativity about him here?) that each book was proofread by at least 4 different people, not counting friends and family. It makes me think maybe I missed my calling, but I can't imagine how some of those more obvious spelling and grammatical errors could be overlooked by so many people. I have heard that recently authors have been using spellcheckers instead of live proofreaders, which would explain a lot of the grammatical and name errors, but I don't really want to believe that an author would rely solely on a computer for this. Does anyone know the current details of book publishing? Oh well, I guess all we can do when we run across these little annoyances is mumble crossly, feel superior, and keep reading ;-). Lara (Antera on IRC) Lara Keyser Liscoonvarna Maine Coons http://www.silcom.com/~liscoon "If man could be crossed with a cat, it would improve the man but deteriorate the cat" -Mark Twain ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 02:01:15 -0400 (EDT) From: A giant telepathic squid To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Talamir- Previous Queen's Own Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Apr 1996, Over the Insanity Horizon, and Accelerating wrote: (snip) > he was advising/psyching a king. In fact, that was supposed to be part > of the problem when Selenay got married: Talamir didn't feel comfortable > advising her and couldn't give her the support she needed. BTW, does > anyone else think this is weird? I have been wondering about this for a > while now. Why doesn't the MO change when the monarch changes? I mean, > we see this example from Selenay's life that the MO for one monarch is > not necessarily the best choice for another monarch. Anyway, it is > something to think about. IIRC, one of the books (me-+AT+-school...) hinted that maybe Talamir was attracted to Selenay and therefore didn't feel comfortable advising her in her love life (maybe didn't trust his own judgment?). At any rate, (OFF TOPIC ALERT!) I too had been wondering where everybody's favorite Mage of the Green Silences had been -- glad to know you're still with us. Becky ---------- With my luck, the entrance exam to Heaven will have logarithms on it. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 10:43:57 +0100 From: mel (Melanie Dymond Harper) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Book lovers and Audiobooks Message-ID: <9604110943.AA23801-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk> Rynath/Jake said: > I may switch over to audiobooks just for the convenience.. although I don't > think I'll find much fantasy on audio. > [snip] > Which brings me to the Misty point: I'd hate to have a Misty audiobook or even > movie, just because of the voices. I have my own idea of voices and appearances > of characters (some say my imagination is stereo, full-color) and seeing them > not match on screen would ruin it for me. I second that. Some of the voices and so forth on audiobooks just don't match my mental .. um, I would say 'image' but I guess 'soundtrack' would be more appropriate. There seems to be a reasonable amount of fantasy out there as audiobooks -- at least in the UK -- although most of it is either the "classics" (eg Tolkien) or the really popular current stuff (eg Pratchett). Specifically, I have not seen any Lackey audiobooks as yet. I don't find them particularly satisfying -- my own theory is that it is because I read so much faster than they speak -- but Graham buys them quite often to keep him sane during his drive to work. Mel. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 10:46:26 +0100 From: mel (Melanie Dymond Harper) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Tolkien Message-ID: <9604110946.AA23861-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk> Sandy said: > Was thinking of trying out the Lost Tales that I > think his son Christopher put together--anybody know anything about those? Don't bother unless you're a Tolkien completist. A lot of folks I know refer to them as the "Laundry Lists" -- i.e. they have published everything Tolkien ever wrote, up to and including ... Mel. (PS I also read the Little House on the Prairie books when younger, and again a couple of years back when my parents moved house and found the box I'd stashed them in) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 11:15:03 +0100 From: mel (Melanie Dymond Harper) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Sexism Message-ID: <9604111015.AA24566-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk> I'm not going to try and follow Heather's post, simply because I think that snipping her views in and out would make this very long indeed. So bear with me while I pontificate a little, won't you? Heather divided Misty's female characters into a few fairly narrow categories: the Strong Woman (Di, Savil), the Strong Female Ruler (Selenay, Solaris), the Strong Good Herald (Keren etc), the Really Bad Woman (Hulda & co), the Pathetic Feminine Woman (Lady Treesa), and a few who don't fit the moulds so well; Talia, Elspeth, one or two more. And she concludes: > And after many, many years of reading > fantasy, I've become *very* convenced that characters who are always > competent, wise, and ethical are dull, dull, dull. Now mostly I agree with her on this. Dull characters, be they 'good' or 'evil', are those with no variety, and hence with little to no depth. Some of the ones I've named above fit this, some don't; I definitely agree with the many people who've said that Misty's Bad Guys (or Gals) lack depth and definition. I don't think we've seen enough of Solaris to get a feel for her as much. Some of the more peripheral characters are probably a bit two-dimensional because of lack of time to develop them. The books are, after all, here to tell a story; if the author digresses and spends five pages telling you about a character not directly related to that story, the editor will probably chop those pages out, and rightly so. This is not to say that some of 'em couldn't stand a bit more 'camera time' than they're getting. I'd have liked to see more of Keren and Ylsa and so on. Lady Treesa, I think, is being slightly unfairly categorised as a Feminine Woman with little depth. We see her telling ... argh, names ... Van's father what she thinks at some point during the LHM books; we see her being polite to Yfandes, and so on. Yes, she's a bit of a bimbo at times, but she gets better as the books go on; she has to deal with many things, including worrying about her son, and doubtless about her daughter who became a mercenary, too. Don't forget, at the point where her silliness is worst -- in _Magic's Pawn_ -- Van is also being a vain fop, and more than a little silly besides. Perhaps it's genetic. :) It's quite hard to show someone as strong when they are doing things seen as specifically 'female' -- mostly because of cultural bias, I don't doubt, but it's harder to imply strength when the character under consideration is running a house rather than an army. In the latter case, you can show them doing Heroic Things, whereas in the former you would have to show them dealing with difficult domestic situations -- which just aren't as glamorous, you know? Hmm. I think that's about all I had to say for the moment. Mel. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 07:48:05 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine Osborne To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Katherine Kurtz Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Apr 1996 Soljan-+AT+-aol.com wrote: > Oooooh! Me! Me! I love her books! They aren't Misty, I'll agree with you. > Misty I can read straight through, Kurtz requires some breaks in between > chapters. For me anyway. What books have you read? I've read all of her > Deryni books. I own them all too. I haven't re-read them. Yet. I liked > Alaric a lot also, though Rhys was my *absolute* favorite. Don't know if > you've read about him though, depends on the book. I found them the same > summer I found Misty, on the bottom library shelf in YA. I've read the first three books about Morgan, the three about Kelson, and the *Deryni Magic* and *Deryni Chronicles* short stories. I just started the Camber series. ObMisty: as far as Misty's women go -- what Heather said. I\/ Catherine Osborne "After great pain, I\/ Sundancer a formal feeling comes." I cosborne-+AT+-sidwell.edu --Emily Dickinson I http://www.sidwell.edu/~cosborne/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 07:54:17 -0400 (EDT) From: Rosario Holsen-Baker To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Insanity (Hadanelith) Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Apr 1996, Mannaheim wrote: > On Wed, 10 Apr 1996, Rosario Holsen-Baker wrote: > > Monolith wrote: > > > > > Its funny, Mannheim, I just finished reading the second griffin book and > > > discovered that the main vaillin isn't gay or homophobic... at least not > > > mostly. He's more like a "normal" hetero-sexual. > > > > > I don't know about "normal," but he definitly wasn't homosexual, > > and there weren't any signs of him being homophobic. My take on it was > > that he was sort of misogynistic. Or maybe he was just plain insane. > > > I go with just plain insane. If we found someone like that > in our world, wouldn't we consider him/her insane? Eh? :) > Actually (I learned this during Jeffrey Dahmer, so it's a bit fuzzy), in our world you can only get off on an insanity plea if it is determined by a panel of psychiatrists (eek!) that you cannot distinguish right from wrong. This is assuming that sane people can too, but I guess they mean the really blatant rights from wrongs such as killer rampages from helping old ladies across the street or something. Anyway, I wonder if Hadanelith qualifies? Sounds like he does, but I'd have to read it again. Though even if he's not criminally insane, he's definitly a few threads short of a full warp! *****LADY JAGUAR***** Leader of the Cat People Lady in Green LGMCB Conspirator #14, DHTBB Lobe #3! "Meddle not in the affairs of cats for you are soft-skinned, and blind at night." ********************* ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 08:15:06 -0400 (EDT) From: Rosario Holsen-Baker To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: warnings Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Apr 1996, A giant telepathic squid wrote: ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ I like that! > On Wed, 10 Apr 1996, Rosario Holsen-Baker wrote: > > > I don't know about "normal," but he definitly wasn't homosexual, > > and there weren't any signs of him being homophobic. My take on it was > > that he was sort of misogynistic. Or maybe he was just plain insane. > > You mean there's a difference? > No, just a specification. On second thought, I take that back. Everyone's Favorite Detective (tm) Sherlock Holmes was a misogynist. He just wasn't obsessive about it. I think it's when they become obsessive that they become insane. Before that their just slightly off kilter. :) > ObMisty: I have just gotten my little sister hooked on _Arrows_. (To let > you know what kind of battle this was, her major reading is Seventeen, > and her major source of entertainment is 90210. Ye gods!) I am therefore > quite proud of myself and hereby do award to me the Velgarthian Medal of > Honor for heroic persistence in the face of overwhelming odds. > Ye Gods! Of course! I'm trying to get my brother to read better stuff, right now all he wants to read is "Mega Man" and other Nintendo/Sega spinoffs. Then again, he is reading Goosebumps, so maybe I can switch it to low-level vampire stories or something. But he's in second grade! And I was reading Tolkien! ARGH! Maybe I can work on my sister (who is also more pink-lace-ruffles-barbie than I ever was). *****LADY JAGUAR***** Leader of the Cat People Lady in Green LGMCB Conspirator #14, DHTBB Lobe #3! "Meddle not in the affairs of cats for you are soft-skinned, and blind at night." ********************* ------------------------------ End of MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 471 *********************************