MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 478 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re: Thanks *and* Eagle and Nightingale by ROZANM-+AT+-webster.nl (Rozanna McNeer) 2) Re: Hello! by ROZANM-+AT+-webster.nl (Rozanna McNeer) 3) Re: Rolan, MOC, soulbonds, etc... by ROZANM-+AT+-webster.nl (Rozanna McNeer) 4) Sacred Ground and Diana Tregarde by "Mark A. Mains" 5) Re: Thanks *and* Eagle and Nightingale by Marissa K Lingen 6) by Saranhct-+AT+-aol.com 7) Re: Misty? by "Stormcloud" 8) Re: book lovers by Roger Dahl 9) Re: Top Ten New Plot Twists in Next Misty Novel by Mannaheim 10) Re: MUCKing [was Re: X-files (off topic)] by Mannaheim 11) Re: Top Ten Cool Things about the M-L List FAQ by Mannaheim 12) Re: lifebonds by kirchfa-+AT+-AZStarNet.com 13) Re: Delurk by kirchfa-+AT+-AZStarNet.com 14) Short Question by kirchfa-+AT+-AZStarNet.com 15) re: age by Joan Ferguson 16) Re: Eagle and Nightengale by "Over the Insanity Horizon, and Accelerating" 17) re: age by "Over the Insanity Horizon, and Accelerating" 18) Re: Thanks *and* Eagle and Nightingale by Marissa K Lingen 19) Re: Kinda Off Topic, But Fantasy Related Anyway by Mannaheim 20) Re: Delurk and Vanyel/Stefen/Lendel thread by "Stormcloud" 21) Re: Thanks *and* Eagle and Nightingale by adowd-+AT+-brynmawr.edu 22) Re: Eagle and Nightengale by adowd-+AT+-brynmawr.edu ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 17:00:02 GMT+0200 From: ROZANM-+AT+-webster.nl (Rozanna McNeer) To: Marissa K Lingen , Subject: Re: Thanks *and* Eagle and Nightingale Message-ID: <317272e6.webster-+AT+-mail.webster.nl> Well, I thought the Church boe a suspicious resemblance to the Spanish Inquisition, which makes me angry every time I think about. Gael Baudino's strands of strlight and some others have got the Inquisition in them and I just want to KILL something after reading her books. Gossamer Axe, however, did not affect me that way, nor did her dragonsword? dragon world? books. /-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/ Rozanna n'ha Iris e-mail: rozanm-+AT+-webster.nl Renunciate of Darkover Member of the Cat People/Huntress "feel the wildness hiding in the back of the shadows, lips pulled in an uncurbed, savage grin." Charles de Lint ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 16:51:45 GMT+0200 From: ROZANM-+AT+-webster.nl (Rozanna McNeer) To: singnet.com.sg!ywlau-+AT+-enterprise.cistron.nl, Subject: Re: Hello! Message-ID: <317272e3.webster-+AT+-mail.webster.nl> > It's nice to know I'm not the only new one! Hi! Oh and I'd like to know what > "obmisty" means too? Thanx! > > Hello, everybody! I just discovered this mailing list a few days ago, > >and I'm thrilled to have found it. Finally, people I can talk with about > >Misty to my heart's content! > > I do have one question. What does "obmisty" mean? > >--Aimee > Jeanette. > It means Obligatory Misty reference. As you can see, sometimes it's not included, but oh well. It's fun anyway! /-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/ Rozanna n'ha Iris e-mail: rozanm-+AT+-webster.nl Renunciate of Darkover Member of the Cat People/Huntress "feel the wildness hiding in the back of the shadows, lips pulled in an uncurbed, savage grin." Charles de Lint ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 16:41:46 GMT+0200 From: ROZANM-+AT+-webster.nl (Rozanna McNeer) To: aol.com!CDyeboston-+AT+-enterprise.cistron.nl, Subject: Re: Rolan, MOC, soulbonds, etc... Message-ID: <317272e2.webster-+AT+-mail.webster.nl> > > Which brings me to the nature of the Herald/Companion bond. We know it is a > soulbond, at least of some kind, from the evidence of Elspeth, who, when she > bonded to Need, said that it was just like being Chosen. Again, most of what > we know about soulbonds is in relation to Need. Kero's refusal to rely on > the blade during her early training meant that the bond set in lightly. > Kethry's constant reliance on the gifts of the blade meant a very deep bond > formed. And yet both of them were unharmed by the loss of the soulbond when > Need was passed to the next person. And Elspeth didn't even *notice* that > Need was gone until Nyara was well out of sight! Kero was badly affected > when Need was lost in the river, but since Kero (who is remarkably chary of > personal commitments or bonds) had been carrying Need in the packs instead of > on her person, that may, in part, have been a mild ruse on Need's part to be > carried more closely to her bondmate. Kero's distress was also the blade's > best chance of getting rescued from the water, so the evidence can be taken > in more than one light. Maybe that centering and resounding like a bell (or singing, or whatever need did in the half-asleep stage) also loosened the soul bond between Need and the current bearer. However, Companions can go far distances away from their Chosen (unlike Need and Kero when she lost the sword) Here's my question. If a companion were knocked unconscious, and then removed to a far distance from their Chosen, would they also experience the pain that Kero felt? > When Gala renounced Tylendel, she made *very* sure that he would be >aware of the loss. So it may be that a soulbond can be undone >without harm, freeing a Herald for the Monarch's Own Companion. Hmmm, I wonder what the parallels to MacCaffrey's Impressing of dragons and dragon death/ rider death are in Valdemar with Companion and Chosen. MCW???? Comments? /-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/ Rozanna n'ha Iris e-mail: rozanm-+AT+-webster.nl Renunciate of Darkover Member of the Cat People/Huntress "feel the wildness hiding in the back of the shadows, lips pulled in an uncurbed, savage grin." Charles de Lint ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 11:18:39 -0400 (EDT) From: "Mark A. Mains" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Sacred Ground and Diana Tregarde Message-ID: <199604151518.LAA04044-+AT+-service1.cc.uky.edu> First: I was wondering what were peoples reactions on Misty's "Sacred Ground". I was thinking about reading it and wondered if it was any good. Second: I am a little confused with the whole guardian concept in the Tregarde books. Can anyone give me insight into exactly what is going on with that? Who gives the guardians the extra power? How are they chosen? Theories and thoughts are appreciated. Mark Mains mamain01-+AT+-pop.uky.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 10:21:34 -0500 From: Marissa K Lingen To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Thanks *and* Eagle and Nightingale Message-ID: <199604151521.KAA04970-+AT+-perdita.gac.edu> Okay, I'm going to try to respond to everybody who responded to my objections to _Eagle_--in one e-mail. So bear with me. First of all, go Heather! (that's HTH, by the way) You summed a lot of it up pretty well. There was no need to make The Big Evil Religion a real-life religion. That's one thing that disappointed me: the lack of creativity. Another thing is the near complete malevolence of the Church as a whole. When the Church in Alanda does good stuff (like not wanting people to work seven days a week), it's put in terms of how it would affect the Church's power over people. They want people to have a shorter work week not out of benevolence towards said people, oh dear me, no! They want it so that they can have people in their churches all day. Benevolence simply doesn't exist in Alanda's Church, except accidentally. Yes, Christianity has had some less than stellar moments, and it continues to today. But it's not as a whole the most evil, oppressive group ever to be founded. Christians don't eat babies, etc. I also agree that I don't buy it that Free Bards are universally good because they're new, free, flexible, yadda yadda. There would almost invariably be (in a reform movement like this) someone who would try to use the movement for different ends. There is nobody like this anywhere in these books. And with the tests for becoming Guild Bards, you'd think that *one* of them would be competent. Nope, nary a one. And yes, the happy hooker thing bothered me, too. I hate the "happy hooker, happy thieves, happy Underworld" thing that pops up in fantasy. Grrrr.... I'm not saying fantasy needs to be realistic per se, but there are some things that inherently go together, and having prostitutes who are just overjoyed with their jobs stretches the "suspend disbelief" thing even for me. Please spare me the "heartless capitalist" schtick. Capitalists are probably the most demonized group in popular media today. Exploitative, power-hungry, you name a bad trait and it's theirs. Yes, there have been bad capitalists in the past, just as every group has bad members, but universally? I've got to get to class and will continue this in a later post. Sorry for the inconvenience. --Morticia ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 11:38:25 -0400 From: Saranhct-+AT+-aol.com Message-ID: <199604151538.LAA07044-+AT+-emout06.mail.aol.com> see more in the way of evil women in Velgarth also. Men can be evil, good, or indifferent. Women can be evil, good or indifferent. I think Misty could do a good job on a truly evil female villain other than Hulda or Faye. Lady Sara, Dryad Extraordinaire ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 12:00:52 EST From: "Stormcloud" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Misty? Message-ID: > Excuse me but I don't see how everybody gets Misty out of Mercedes Lackey? > Why does everyone call her that? I have been wondering that FOREVER!!!! whew > does it feel good to get THAT off my chest . . . As I was informed upon joining Queen's Own, she used to work with little children who called her "Miss Dee," which slurred into Misty. -+AT+->--- Stormcloud In the name One in Black of the Moon Jenna, the Misty maniac I'll punish you! jwil3969-+AT+-simcl.stjohns.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 15:38:09 +0000 (GMT) From: Roger Dahl To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: book lovers Message-ID: On Sat, 6 Apr 1996, Chris Berry wrote: > I can read really fast too... although I never took a reading test, I > can read The Last Hearld Mage trilogy, the Mage Wars trilogy, and The > Deed of Paksenarrion (Eliz Moon) in one day.. but it would take me most > of the days to read those 9 books... I know that it's possible to read this fast and much faster. In fact some people can read about as fast as they can turn the pages, so I guess they could do the average Lackey book in 10 minutes or so. And they will also have a much higher then average comprehension. What I'm wondering about is if it's worth reading books so fast? Chris reads a book in an hour. I need 10-12 hours to read the average Lackey book. I could probably do it quite a bit faster but I think I need this time to experience the book. To feel the emotions. How do you cram an entire books worth of happines, tears, love and hate, all those conflicting emotions, into one small hour? And if you don't give yourself time to experience those emosions fully, isn't some of the point of reading lost? -+*#*+- -+*#*+- -+*#*+- -+*# Roger Dahl - rd-+AT+-redleaf.bbs.no #*+- Now Hounds of Love are Hunting ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 09:02:57 -0700 (PDT) From: Mannaheim To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Top Ten New Plot Twists in Next Misty Novel Message-ID: On Mon, 15 Apr 1996 ywlau-+AT+-singnet.com.sg wrote: > >> 3. Misty names characters after prominent members on the mailing list. > >Well, this one has my vote! > >-Free Bard Oriole > > known on IRC as Vrondi > > a.k.a. Chrys Amy Dean. > (snip) > > It has mine too! BTW, are there any objections if I start calling myself > Moonsong? Like, is it taken? > > > Zhai'helleva, > Jeanette. > > If anyone has the list of Top Ten New New Plot Twists In Next Misty novel, please send it to me. I never got a copy. Thanx! :) Mannaheim -=-=-=-patw-+AT+-clark.edu-=-=-=-Mannaheim-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- "He teaches like Speedy Gonzalez on a caffeine high." =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 09:05:18 -0700 (PDT) From: Mannaheim To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: MUCKing [was Re: X-files (off topic)] Message-ID: On Mon, 15 Apr 1996, Tensen wrote: > > > > ObMisty: Wouldn't it be cool if Misty had regular Internet? > > How can we be sure she isn't?!? She seemed to be a furry muck fanatic > with the "realism" she portrayed of it in one story. > > This reminds me. Is anyone here use MUCKs, MUSHes, MOOs or MUDs? If you do, which ones? -=-=-=-patw-+AT+-clark.edu-=-=-=-Mannaheim-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- "He teaches like Speedy Gonzalez on a caffeine high." =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 09:09:06 -0700 (PDT) From: Mannaheim To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Top Ten Cool Things about the M-L List FAQ Message-ID: On Mon, 15 Apr 1996, deanca wrote: > > Dli kea'bemfoska akota'tyaaka-ne puku kea'tabhoka-beku, > huh? what is this? 'nother language, or hust gibberish? > -Free Bard Oriole > known on IRC as Vrondi > a.k.a. Chrys Amy Dean. > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > If anyone has THIS list (Top Ten Cool THings about the ML List FAQ) please send it to me also. I'm collecting all of these types of things to put on my homepage. If anyone can tell me who the originator is of the list The Top Twelve Worst Things To Happen If They Make The Last Herald-Mage Into A Film, I'd really appreciate it. Thanx! :) Mannaheim -=-=-=-patw-+AT+-clark.edu-=-=-=-Mannaheim-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- "He teaches like Speedy Gonzalez on a caffeine high." =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 09:08:16 -0700 (MST) From: kirchfa-+AT+-AZStarNet.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: lifebonds Message-ID: <199604151608.JAA22441-+AT+-web.azstarnet.com> Heyla! >Hey all, >I guess I am questioning what happens to the other of an "ordinary" pair >from which one is chosen. If the other is not lifebonded, then he/she >gets left behind, but if the other is lifebonded, then he/she packs up and >follows the chosen to Haven? (I am assuming that the lifebonding is not >restricted to those with any of the gifts (healer/hearld/bard) - BUT this >assumption may be wrong - does anybody know for sure? - is lifebonding >only possible between those with any of the gift/with the potential for >any of the gifts?) > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Vivian Choh "I'm all that I claim to be. I simply have not >bi189-+AT+-torfree.net claimed all that I am." >v.choh-+AT+-utoronto.ca - M. Lackey, "Oathbreakers" Well, somewhere in LHM it says (approximately) that two lifebonded peoples "are, at some level, one person." It also said somewhere that those who got Chosen usually came to Haven for some other reason and were Chosen there. Maybe that means their lifebonded mate comes with them, so they're already there, and they don't have to pack up. (sigh. That sounded so much more logical before I wrote it down. Oh well.) Zhai'helleva and Cheysuli i'halla shansu, "A Companion is not a nummie-num." - Me *************************************************** Jesse von Kirchner, Apprentice to His Lordship Chosa Dei, High Wizard of Ysaa-Den and rightful ruler of both north and south. *************************************************** /\ / \.--./\ / \ / \ / \/ \ .--. / |\_/| \ | | .--. / / o o\ \ | | | | .---. / /( )\ \ | `- ' |_| | / / \#/ \ \ | ___' | | `---. | | | | | | | (~\ | | / ~) | | __\_|| ||_/__ | | _///_//_| |_\\__\\\___|__| ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 09:08:11 -0700 (MST) From: kirchfa-+AT+-AZStarNet.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Delurk Message-ID: <199604151608.JAA22434-+AT+-web.azstarnet.com> Heyla! >Lady Becky wrote: >> > comment. I'm Jeanette from Singapore, and I'm 14. I think I'm one of the >> > youngest members of this list? >> > >> Welcome to the list! You are one of the youngest, you might be >> the youngest. I'm 15 myself. Which books of hers have you read? >> > Woah. It's amazing how many people you think are college kids or >adults, only to find out...well, I'll put Shadow-Lover out of his misery >(last I heard he was trying to figure out how old I was): I'm 15, too, >soon to be 16! > >*****LADY JAGUAR***** >Leader of the Cat People >Lady in Green >LGMCB Conspirator #14, DHTBB Lobe #3! >"Meddle not in the affairs of cats >for you are soft-skinned, and blind at night." >********************* Yep, I'm 14 too. Sure seem to be a lot of us young'uns. Anyone younger than 14? "A Companion is not a nummie-num." - Me *************************************************** Jesse von Kirchner, Apprentice to His Lordship Chosa Dei, High Wizard of Ysaa-Den and rightful ruler of both north and south. *************************************************** /\ / \.--./\ / \ / \ / \/ \ .--. / |\_/| \ | | .--. / / o o\ \ | | | | .---. / /( )\ \ | `- ' |_| | / / \#/ \ \ | ___' | | `---. | | | | | | | (~\ | | / ~) | | __\_|| ||_/__ | | _///_//_| |_\\__\\\___|__| ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 09:08:19 -0700 (MST) From: kirchfa-+AT+-AZStarNet.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Short Question Message-ID: <199604151608.JAA22452-+AT+-web.azstarnet.com> Heyla! I just remembered a question I've been wondering about...can someone with the bardic gift choose to sing/play/whatever _without_ using the gift? I don't recall this being addressed, and you'd think there would be times when singing with the gift would be inconvenient. Oh, about the Eagle and the Nightingale...Much as it pains me to say this, I really didn't like the series as much. I though it was fairly stereotypical, and too clear-cut. (Yea! It still had shapechanging!) Zhai'helleva and Cheysuli i'halla shansu, "A Companion is not a nummie-num." - Me *************************************************** Jesse von Kirchner, Apprentice to His Lordship Chosa Dei, High Wizard of Ysaa-Den and rightful ruler of both north and south. *************************************************** /\ / \.--./\ / \ / \ / \/ \ .--. / |\_/| \ | | .--. / / o o\ \ | | | | .---. / /( )\ \ | `- ' |_| | / / \#/ \ \ | ___' | | `---. | | | | | | | (~\ | | / ~) | | __\_|| ||_/__ | | _///_//_| |_\\__\\\___|__| ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 12:12:22 -0400 From: Joan Ferguson To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: re: age Message-ID: <199604151612.MAA26013-+AT+-elmer.Harvard.EDU> >> >>In fact, thinking back, there was precious little fantasy around 20 years ago >>- any other geriatrics out there with a few brain cells left who can help me >>out here? McCaffrey was my first (Dragonflight, Restoree, Ship who Sang) - >>before that I read the "softer" Sci-Fi - but straight fantasy (excluding >>messrs. Tolkien and Lewis) - I don't remember any, it's either my age, or they >>weren't memorable! > >I started on fantasy via the Hobbit et al at about age 7 (*mmmppphhh* years >ago) and haven't stopped since. I too spent my early years reading more SF >than F but gradually the proportions altered :) I've been hooked on reading >for over 25 years now and there is no end in sight! >Lady Kayla > Another "ancient one" (actually in the mid-ancient range, thank you) delurks ... I can remember being fascinated by L'Engle in grade school (that's 1970 and on for you young'uns), followed closely by Lewis, Tolkien, Heinlin, Norton, McCaffrey, Kurtz, Brooks, Susan Cooper, etc. etc. There was no real "choice" in what you read for class ... you started out with "See Dick. See Jane. Run, Dick, run. See Spot run" (yes, I too am a victim of that garbage) (but there was Dr. Seuss and Sesame Street then, too, so there was some salvation :-), and things progressed on from there (I refuse to say "improved") I read mostly SciFi (yes, there was precious little Fantasy, and little of it good) up until college, and then for some reason spent the next four to five years immersed in the "classics" (could "Ulysses" count as fantasy, maybe? :-) until I got my English Lit. degree and stopped *having* to read things. ObMisty: The 13 yr old daughter of my housemate was reading Arrows of the Queen one day - me, being addicted to anything with a horse on the cover, asked to borrow it - this was, oh, late 1987/early 1988. I've been re-hooked ever since - and thanks to many of you, I've been catching up on all the good stuff I've missed. It really is wonderful to see good fantasy lit. out there - but when are the bookstores going to call their sections Science Fiction / *Fantasy*, hmm?! Joan ("thirtysomething") joan_ferguson-+AT+-harvard.edu Harvard University Library Preservation Office "Instead of loving your enemies,treat your friends a little better." -Edgar Watson Howe (1853-1937) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 12:13:11 -0400 (EDT) From: "Over the Insanity Horizon, and Accelerating" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Eagle and Nightengale Message-ID: On Mon, 15 Apr 1996, Heather Watson wrote: > And the feeling I got after reading the books is that, yes, this > religion is a bane to all people except the high-ranking church > officials, a threat to freedom and goodness everywhere, and quite > possibly an utter fraud as well. The fact that there were two good I have to come in on the side of Heather and the others who have been criticising the Bardic series. I read L&W and I doubt if I will bother with any of the others. I think that Misty has unfortunately lost her objectivity (or basic fairness, for that matter) in this series. I agree that the Church of the Sacrificed God is rather transparently the Catholic Church and it is also rather clearly the evil villain. Regardless of what Misty may think, the Catholic Church has never been completely evil, useless, or a sham. Even in the worst of time (the Inquisition, the Borgia popes, etc.) the Catholic Church still managed to do a lot of good, and it still managed to meet the spiritual needs of the faithful. Yes, it is true that things did get bad enough that some groups splintered off and became the Protestant churches, but even then, the vast majority of Catholics remained with the church. If Misty were basing her Church on any other faith (Islam, Hindu, etc.) she would be severely criticised for religion bashing. And it seems to me that that is exactly what she is doing in this series. (BTW, I think that I should mention that I am areligious. I am not even Christian, let alone Catholic.) Now I will also admit that the demonization of an important Primary World institution can serve as an excellent entre into the Secondary World of a fantasy novel, but there are limits (in terms of narrative strategy). The demonization of the Catholic Church throughout the entire text is neither necessary to the narrative, nor particularly good writing. It is so transparent that it smacks of a creative slump. Also, to be honest, I found that portions of the text read like a particularly heavy-handed political diatribe. I spent a lot of time thinking "Well, so much for Misty's vaunted respect for other faiths. I wonder what happened to "There is no 'one true way'"?" > Yes, bureaucracies can suck. Yes, things stultify when they become > overly institutionalized. But things like Christianity tend to stay I am also had to take issue with the idea that institutionalization is necessarily evil. Excuse me, but I am an academic, part of an institutional tradition that goes back to the Middle Ages, and I am not evil! Nor are any of the people that I know. (Well, okay, I have one evil professor, but that is just part of his personality, and he would be evil in any context. *grin* [he isn't really "evil" either, I suppose. It just feels like it sometimes.]) I got the feeling that Misty was taking a very strong anti-Union stance with her characterization of the Bardic Guild. This is not surprising coming from an Oklahoman (we are not a state with a strong Union presence or tolerance), but it really seemed so silly. It was just so unrealistic in the context. Also, much as I love music, I can't see any society giving that much institutional power to musicians. And the reason that the text gives: they will withold their music from a Lord's entertainments? Oooh, now there's a threat to cow even the greatest lord. I have to say that if I were a lord in a feudal society, and a bard had the audacity to dictate terms to me, I would have him or her in prison so fast it would make their head swim. (not that I am a mean person, but this is within the context of a characterization). And what could the Bards do about it? > I don't think this has anything to do with Misty toeing anyone's > ideological line. I think it has to do with respect for people's belief > systems. It's one thing to say that there are abuses and problems > within Christianity. It's another to imply that Christianity is a > corrupt religion run by charlatans, bureaucrats, and scoundrels, laced > with a few kindly but overmatched souls. I'd feel better about the > situation if any of her good characters seemed to belong to this Church > -- not token Good Priests, but the main characters, who could agonize > over what's being done to their beloved faith. I would feel better if her portrayal were realistically mixed in terms of goodness and badness. That is, if there were both good and bad aspects to the Church, and her good characters were fighting the bad aspects, not as a single candle amidst the darkness, but as a, perhaps, a single *active* candle among a group of passive ones. (My God that is a bizarrely stretched metaphor! =) ) > I'd feel better if she'd make up her own bloody religion instead of > pirating a major world religion. I'm a little tired of Good Misty > Pagans (Diana, the Tayledras, the Shin'a'in) and Bad Misty Christians > (the Alanda Church, the Holderkin). Granted, the exception is Vkandis, > who is built on more of a Christian model, and yet seems to be shaping I would disagree here. I think that Misty is shaping Vkandis into a more organized version of the neo-Pagan model that she has proposed for the Shin'a'in and Tayledras. I have a feeling that we will find out that the Goddess-Consort of Vkandis is the Star-Eyed and that the God-Consort of the Star-Eyed is Vkandis. But I agree with the basic idea. I was always taught that if you were going to criticize others, you had to also be willing to criticize yourself. And if you were going to say unkind things about a group, then you had better be a member of the group. I ended up telling a lot of "viking" jokes when I was a kid, because I was from that ethnicity (my mother's family were Scandanavian seafarers by the name of "Viik"!). No offense to any neo-Pagans on the list, but I am tired of hearing my neo-Pagan friends vilify other organized religions for no good reason. Excuse me, but I think that there is as much spirituality in going to Mass with an open heart as there is in celebrating Beltane. [snippage of Heather's commentary on the prostitution question.] I could go on about this topic for quite a while, but I won't because I would simply reiterating Heather. She said it all so eloquently. Brava, Heather! May the seas be your solace and the forests a refuge for your spirit, Cennydd, Mage of the Green Silences. Eu guardo a luz das estrelas a alma de cada folha Sem folhas nao tem vida, Sem folhas nao tem nada, Salve as folhas! Kenneth Allen Hyde | No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife Univ. of Delaware | between the shoulder blades will seriously Dept. of Linguistics | cramp his style -- Old Jhereg proverb kenny-+AT+-strauss.udel.edu | A mind is a terrible toy to waste! -- Me ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 12:25:19 -0400 (EDT) From: "Over the Insanity Horizon, and Accelerating" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: re: age Message-ID: On Mon, 15 Apr 1996 dbackhau-+AT+-isou10.estec.esa.nl wrote: > But you're babies - good grief I read my first McCaffrey over 16 years ago, > and I considered myself "grown up" even then. I've been reading Lacky, > McCaffrey, McKilip, McKinley etc etc etc as they published. I have spent > _years_ of my life waiting for the next bit to appear, you littles don't > know how lucky you are - you can just go and get Arrows/Winds/Vows and Honour > as complete job lots - I don't think I've bought any of them that way - just > the long drawn out, when-are-the-soddin'-publishers-going-to-bring-out-the- > paperback way. Oh good, someone else who experienced the Misty phenom the way I did. I started reading her, before she had a novel. I remember that I was waiting for AotQ because MZB had mentioned, in the forward to the T&K story in SSIII, that Misty had just sold her first novel, or somesuch (maybe a l8r volume). I had the same experience with most of my fave fantasy authors. Even a lot of McCaffrey, I have purchased as it was published. I have distinct memories of the frustration of waiting close to 2 years for the final book in the Belgariad (by Eddings). > In fact, thinking back, there was precious little fantasy around 20 years ago > - any other geriatrics out there with a few brain cells left who can help me > out here? McCaffrey was my first (Dragonflight, Restoree, Ship who Sang) - > before that I read the "softer" Sci-Fi - but straight fantasy (excluding > messrs. Tolkien and Lewis) - I don't remember any, it's either my age, or they > weren't memorable! 20 years ago. Hmmm. No, I don't remember there being much that was memorable. I read mostly sci-fi at the time. The only really memorable fantasy was the classic Tolkien and Norton stuff. Oh, and the "young adults" stuff by Lloyd Alexander. Does anyone else besides me remember those books? I still love them. I have the entire set of Taran books, plus some Prydain short stories. I still read them. The second-to-last book in the series is my fave, and may be more adult than a lot of "adult" fiction. Oh, and another series that I remember from that time, that was considered "young adult" fiction, but definitely isn't is Susan Cooper's "Dark is Rising" cycle. Brilliant stuff, and a shame that it is relegated to children's sections of the library just because the main character is partially a child (he is also, partially an Old One and immortal). May the seas be your solace and the forests a refuge for your spirit, Cennydd, Mage of the Green Silences. Eu guardo a luz das estrelas a alma de cada folha Sem folhas nao tem vida, Sem folhas nao tem nada, Salve as folhas! Kenneth Allen Hyde | No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife Univ. of Delaware | between the shoulder blades will seriously Dept. of Linguistics | cramp his style -- Old Jhereg proverb kenny-+AT+-strauss.udel.edu | A mind is a terrible toy to waste! -- Me ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 11:31:17 -0500 From: Marissa K Lingen To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Thanks *and* Eagle and Nightingale Message-ID: <199604151631.LAA15800-+AT+-pepperoncini.gac.edu> Okay, sorry for the interruption (Orgo is *so* annoying...interrupts my real life!). Anyway, I was a bit offended by the comment (L'Enfant Terrible's statement--that is, Adrienne York--I think--sorry if I'm wrong) "Are you disappointed because she didn't tow your ideological line?" Um, perhaps I'm being oversensitive, but that struck me with some snide implications. Let me clarify. Misty can hold whatever ideology she wants, express it in her books, write it on her forehead, whatever floats her boat. It does disappoint me when people I have previously seen as good writers (and thus hopefully pretty decent thinkers) get intellectually lazy and/or preachy. There was no need for her to include the "manufactories" in the book except to have another group to demonize (a group which wouldn't have anything to do with the *plot*!), and she presented them as unmitigated evil. The same person commented that capitalism hasn't fixed everything and won't, and that the same is true for Christianity and technology. Sure, it's not a cure-all. If you have a fight with someone you love, the fact that you live in a capitalist society is not going to make it all better. However, capitalism does a pretty damn good job as far as economic problems are concerned. Whether capitalism itself was hurting people and whether the government solved it are *not* "historical happenings"--read some Ayn Rand, some Nathaniel Branden, Ludwig von Mises, Alan Greenspan, Freidrich von Hayek. Yes, what we are taught in schools in this country is that the Evil Capitalists were ruining people's lives until the Wonderful Government stepped in. What we *aren't* taught is how much of their ability to ruin people's lives depended on the fact that it was *not* a capitalist economy, it was a *mixed* economy. What we *aren't* taught it what the Anti-Trust Laws that are touted as being so wonderful actually *say* to the businessmen. What we *aren't* taught is the conditions people had to live and work in *before* factories. Misty's characters noticed *nothing* good about factories. No good points whatsoever. Capitalists were unmitigated evil, and that was that. That, unfortunately, was also pure BS. I've got another class to go to (they really cramp my style!). More later, again! --Morticia ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 09:36:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Mannaheim To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Kinda Off Topic, But Fantasy Related Anyway Message-ID: On Sat, 13 Apr 1996, deanca wrote: > > Well, I shall have to investigate this! I happen to have > > the music for Ash Grove, though I have never played it, and I > > really thought that song was funny! (See, it was a two liner, and > > now it's a three-liner. Do not complain:) > well, I don't know this particular song, but the origional folk song > "The Ash Grove" is simply lovely. I've liked it for years. I used to > get my friend who plays flute to play it for me. Beautiful! I also > have the sheet music (somewhere). > -Free Bard Oriole > Gee. I didn't know it was such a popular song! I play it on my saxaphone. I guess it wasn't really meant to played on that, but it still sounds good! :) Mannaheim -=-=-=-patw-+AT+-clark.edu-=-=-=-Mannaheim-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- "He teaches like Speedy Gonzalez on a caffeine high." =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 12:53:17 EST From: "Stormcloud" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Delurk and Vanyel/Stefen/Lendel thread Message-ID: Nitebird wrote: Jeanette wrote: > > > > comment. I'm Jeanette from Singapore, and I'm 14. I think I'm one of the > > > > youngest members of this list? > I feel OLD! I'm 24 and been reading Misty for at least five years! > > NiteBird Welcome to the list, Jeanette!!!!! I feel old, too! I'm 19, and I've been reading Misty for seven years. Scary, isn't it? Oh, everyone's going to shoot me, but do you know what came into my head the other night while I was half asleep? Staven ('Lendel's twin). Stefen. Coincidence, or not? Could it be that 'Lendel was given the new name to honour his brother's memory? Stefen is really a combination of the twins? It's not 'Lendel at all but his brother? Too early in the morn for me to be thinking such things? -+AT+->--- Stormcloud In the name One in Black of the Moon Jenna, the Misty maniac I'll punish you! jwil3969-+AT+-simcl.stjohns.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 12:40:44 +0100 From: adowd-+AT+-brynmawr.edu To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Thanks *and* Eagle and Nightingale Message-ID: >On Sun, 14 Apr 1996, Marissa K Lingen wrote: > >> Okay, and I just read _The Eagle and The Nightingales_ this week, and >> I have to ask if anyone else is bothered by this series. It seems >> that the lines are so clear: Free Bards Good, Guild Bards Bad, by >> definition. The Church (which I think was *way* too obviously >> Christianity--the Sacrificed God--with even the story about casting >> demons out and having them go into a herd of pigs?) was also almost >> universally Bad. In fact, I found it a little off-putting that it >> was so obviously based on Christianity and so *obviously* completely >> antithetical to anything even close to good about that world. > On Sun April 14, Adrienne York wrote: >The Church isn't universally evil. Lady Ardis, the priest that married >Lark and Wren, the doctor that tried to help Rune, the monk that helped the >Robin and the Kestrel, and the head of the mixed species church in E & N >are all good church officials. And the ideals expressed by the Church >and the programs the Church was supposed to run and the products of the >Church were oftentimes good. It wasn't the religion that Misty was >criticizing, it was the corrupt hierarchy of the Church and the laziness >and selfishness that one finds in any large group but which is especially >disappointing in those of the cloth which Misty criticized. > Yes, there are some good Church members, but they all seem to be rather minor characters (execpt for Lady Ardis, and she isn't exactly a major character). So the overall impression is that the Church in Alanda is corrupt, with nasty tendencies. But I don't think Misty is trying to say that Christianity is bad, or even that religion is bad, just to point out that it can be very tempting for certain people to use whatever religion they belong to to justify their own prejudices and narrow mindset while simutaneously ignoring the precepts of that self-same religion that might disagree with those prejudices. (Whoa! Did that sentance make any sense at all?) Anyway, I heard somewhere that the next book in the Alanda series will have a good priest as the main character, who teams up with Ardis. So maybe some of these questions will be addressed then. --Aimee ********************************************* "Living is dancing and you are the dancer, within you the answer if only you'll dare." --- Mercedes Lackey, "Dream Rider." ********************************************* ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 13:03:24 +0100 From: adowd-+AT+-brynmawr.edu To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Eagle and Nightengale Message-ID: On Monday, April 15, HTH said: > One point, a minor change of topic. Did anyone else find it really, >really unecessary to include brothels as bastions of goodness and >decency in two of the three Alanda books? L&W and R&K both had groups >of happy hookers and their friendly customers whose only complaint in >life was that some people didn't seem to respect them very much. What >is with this? I don't know; I'm a little ambivalent on this point. On the one hand, Misty knows the "happy hooker" sterotype is absolutely ridiculous -- she even says so in _Born to Run_. And there are hints that the brothel in _The Lark and the Wren_ that Rune plays at is unusual -- references to other houses, especially the one that one of the women (I forget her name. The non-human, scaly one.) was at before, where if she had stayed there one more day, something would have been dead -- the implication being that she would have snapped and killed either one of the johns or herself. But she never gives an adequate explaination, IMHO, of why this house isn't like that. While I can imagine a world where prostitution isn't something that people are forced into out of desperation, where it is something more like what we have in _The Lark and the Wren_, unfortunately that world doesn't exist anywhere execpt in my head. So if you're going to have a brothel like this one (and it's Misty's world; she can do what she likes with it), you need to have an explaination for it to be convincing. For example, I think Spider Robinson does a pretty good job presenting a similar situation in his book _Callahan's Lady_. Well, anyway. Just my 2 cents worth. --Aimee ********************************************* "Living is dancing and you are the dancer, within you the answer if only you'll dare." --- Mercedes Lackey, "Dream Rider." ********************************************* ------------------------------ End of MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 478 *********************************