MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 482 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re: Short Question by Chelsea Amberle Fischer 2) Snow Demons by Lisa Gregory 3) Re: X-files (off topic) by "Sarah Stock" 4) Re: Mercedes Lackey Booklist. by Chelsea Amberle Fischer 5) Re: Harmless Valgarth/Music by Lisa Gregory 6) Lady Moonsong? Paging Lady Moonsong... by Rosario Holsen-Baker 7) Re: Valdemaran music by Heather Watson 8) Re: Jean Auel by "Over the Insanity Horizon, and Accelerating" 9) Re: Eagle and Nightengale by mrtmh-+AT+-primenet.com (Lady 'Reesa And Tina) 10) A strange request (Off topic) by mrtmh-+AT+-primenet.com (Lady 'Reesa And Tina) 11) Re: Talamir- Previous Queen's Own by catwoman 12) Re: MERCEDES-LACKEY digest 479 Re: Lammas Night by Jake / Rynath in Green <102744.2515-+AT+-CompuServe.COM> 13) Re: MERCEDES-LACKEY digest 479 Re: Printers by Jake / Rynath in Green <102744.2515-+AT+-CompuServe.COM> 14) re: Tech Level on Velgarth by winkle-+AT+-imsa.edu 15) Re: Eagle and Nightingale objections by Susan5683-+AT+-aol.com 16) Re: Tech Level on Velgarth by Susan5683-+AT+-aol.com 17) Re: Prostitutes by Heather Watson 18) A kind of odd request by Lara Keyser 19) Re: Sacred Ground & Diana Tregarde by Heather Watson 20) Apologies by ywlau-+AT+-singnet.com.sg 21) by ywlau-+AT+-singnet.com.sg 22) Re: ADMIN: let me repeat this, once more, with feeling. by mel (Melanie Dymond Harper) 23) Re: Big List(again) form by STOKES J <95662014-+AT+-mmu.ac.uk> 24) Re: Re: Gays/bi/hetero by STOKES J <95662014-+AT+-mmu.ac.uk> 25) Re: GAYS [really off-topic] by STOKES J <95662014-+AT+-mmu.ac.uk> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 21:56:36 -0500 (CDT) From: Chelsea Amberle Fischer To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Short Question Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Apr 1996 kirchfa-+AT+-AZStarNet.com wrote: > I just remembered a question I've been wondering about...can someone with > the bardic gift choose to sing/play/whatever _without_ using the gift? I IIRC, in LHM, when Vanyel goes to "research" Tashir, he poses as a common, unGifted minstrel to earn cash while stating inconspicuous... on the other hand, I seem to remember someone (Lendel??) telling Van that the Bardic Gift "gets in the way of the music sometimes"... this seems to imply to me that it's not under firm control...... sorry, I *thought* I could help you........ :) ---Chelsae **************************************** Pukka pukka pukka pukka squeetily boink. ---Wembley Fraggle **************************************** caf0001-+AT+-jove.acs.unt.edu **************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 23:05:45 -0400 From: Lisa Gregory To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Snow Demons Message-ID: <199604170305.XAA17962-+AT+-gramercy.ios.com> >I think it is the same one. Remember how, in the beginning of Oathbreakers, >Tarma tells Kethry that the Snow Demon was a story used to frighten >children. Then she said that it actuall existed. Something like, >"I slaughtered half a clan before it was done. It was taken out by >one of my teachers. It was a mutual kill. Damned painful he said." >(that's all stricktly from memory too.) So, "Snow Beast" would be >the kids story, and "Hindsight" would be the truth. I agree that it's the same demon. I think that the first, cheery little ditty of death is the one that Tarma sings for Kethry the night they find out that Idra has disappeared, and the second is supposed to be sung by Tarma's teacher. The only point I might quibble with is the suggestion that "Snow Beast" is the kids' story, while "Hindsight" is the truth. "Snow Beast" doesn't really seem to be hiding much truth (what with stating straight out that half of the tribe dies), and the Shin'a'in in general don't seem likely to hide danger and scary stuff from their kids. They probably figure that they need to know about them or they're likely to wind up dead. Lisa ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 15:16:15 +1200 From: "Sarah Stock" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: X-files (off topic) Message-ID: <199604170309.PAA08778-+AT+-ftp.paradigm.co.nz> > From: Mannaheim > On Sun, 14 Apr 1996 adowd-+AT+-brynmawr.edu wrote: > > > On 4/13, Lady Becky wrote: > I don't think there were any alternate realities. It was just a > story told in several different pieces from several different > perspectives, and most of it was portrayed literally, as the person being > intertviewed at the time told it. I thought the silliest part was when > Mulder came upon the body in the field and made that squeak. :) > > Mannaheim Okay, Um I'm one of those lucky people who doesn't have to pay for downloading mail, so people discussing all sorts of stuff never worries me BUT! Please remember that some of us aren't in the USA and are behind on TV series. I watch the X-Files, I'm a big fan, and I don't mind any of the stuff thats been said so far, but if it gets any more specific it will ruin the episode for me. So, I will stop reading this thread, just to be safe. However, I basically sort all my mail, and then just click on next, so if I'm not watching for this kind of thing later on, I could get caught. Spoiler protection could be a good idea maybe? Thanks all Sarah Sarah Stock Paradigm Technology Ltd sarah-+AT+-paradigm.co.nz The time for action is past! Now is the time for senseless bickering. (c) Brillant Enterprises ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 22:16:08 -0500 (CDT) From: Chelsea Amberle Fischer To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Mercedes Lackey Booklist. Message-ID: On Mon, 15 Apr 1996, Jake / Rynath in Green wrote: > ===================================================================== > Mercedes Lackey Booklist > ===================================================================== I'm so excited!!!!! (<--I wonder?? :) ...I think I've found a misty short story no one else knows about!! I haven't read it yet, so I can't say how good it is, but it's called "Wet Wings," and it's printed in _Sisters In Fantasy_, copyright 1996 by Roc, a division of Penguin Books... it's edited by Susan Schwartz and Martin H. Greenberg... I'll post agin to tell you how it is when I've finished.... ---Chelsae **************************************** Pukka pukka pukka pukka squeetily boink. ---Wembley Fraggle **************************************** caf0001-+AT+-jove.acs.unt.edu **************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 23:25:31 -0400 From: Lisa Gregory To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Harmless Valgarth/Music Message-ID: <199604170325.XAA20337-+AT+-gramercy.ios.com> On Tue, 9 Apr 1996, Rozanna McNeer wrote: > Pelagir hills, Peligir forests, bandits that raped Tarma, firebird > nest that burned the one herald in Arrows, bandits from Karse (no > longer applicable, but used to be), renegade mages, Ancar, Mage > storms, Falconsbreath Ma'ar thing, wild wyrsa packs, bullies, > Holderkin and others like Talia's brother with poker, etc.etc is > HARMLESS????? This sounds like a rough draft of a verse from a Velgarth version of "We Didn't Start the Fire". I wish I had a good enough sense of rhythm and meter to come up with the full song. Any volunteers? :) Which leads into the current thread about non-folk type music on Velgarth. Do they have any sort of piano/harpsichord/similar instruments? Have bowed instruments been mentioned? What do they have to work with right now? (I'm not saying that I don't think that they have these things; I just can't remember at the moment.) Lisa ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 23:31:44 -0400 (EDT) From: Rosario Holsen-Baker To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Lady Moonsong? Paging Lady Moonsong... Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Apr 1996, Mat Timmerman wrote: > From: ywlau-+AT+-singnet.com.sg > > > >It has mine too! BTW, are there any objections if I start calling myself > >Moonsong? Like, is it taken? > > Well, AFAIK, we already have a Lady Moonsong around here. Am I right > or am I just delusional? > There is, I just ran into one of her messages. She's of the Black and the Green. Sorry. BTW, is that the first time someone's first choice for a name has been taken? I do believe so! weirdness. Even stranger, I ran across another Jaguar on the web. Since I found another "those d****d confusing groups (TDCG)" question, once again, the URL for the Magewar Archives: http://www.sidwell.edu/~rholsen/archives.html And if anyone can think of anything else to put on it, give a yell. Oh! Idea. Do the independants of the mage-war want a short character bio? Gyr? Shadow-Lover? *****LADY JAGUAR***** Leader of the Cat People Lady in Green LGMCB Conspirator #13, DHTBB Lobe #3! "If you want someone to love you, open your heart. If you want someone obsessed with you, close it." ********************* ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 22:39:40 CST From: Heather Watson To: Subject: Re: Valdemaran music Message-ID: <16APR96.24474099.0031.MUSIC-+AT+-NEMOMUS> Well, authors don't always write what they know, but they usually write what they love. Misty obviously has a background in acoustic, solo folk and filk music, and in her world, everyone else likes it as much as she does. That's one of the joys of being The Author I'm a theater maven myself, and so my writing tends to prominently feature opera, actors, and theater companies. Personally, I'd like to see some of that in Valdemar, too. And I agree with Cennydd that it would be nice to see some human experience songs, songs that deal primarily with the emotional lives of the various characters. His examples were perfectly descriptive. Gad, what a waste of space this has been! There isn't much polyphonic or theatrical music because Misty didn't write it in, and what Cennydd said. I'm sorry, but I haven't been getting any mail from this list for a day or two now, so I'm just so thrilled to see something, anything, that I'll respond wantonly. Glad to see the computer is back in line. HTH Ladies' Aid & Armor Society ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 23:48:01 -0400 (EDT) From: "Over the Insanity Horizon, and Accelerating" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Jean Auel Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Apr 1996, Katherine M Brielmaier wrote: > As an anthropology student, I find her Neanderthal/Cro-Magnon conflict > fascinating, and her novel _The Clan of the Cave Bear_ is one of the > texts used in the Physical Anthropology course taught here (at the U of > Minnesota). She does such a good job of portraying that Neanderthal > culture (albeit with some totally unsupported flights of fancy...heck, > she's gotta have a plot, right?) that they > actually use it in lecture as a demonstration of modern anthropological > culture-projection (that's "theorizing ways of life from artifacts") > Pretty nifty, huh? Well, I love Jean Auel's research. She is brilliantly meticulous. However, I don't particularly like her writing. She takes the one profoundly irritating aspect of Misty's writing and carries it to extremes. By this I mean that she has her characters tie themselves into knots emotionally in a way that is totally unrealistically. This is the reason that I didn't particularly care for Arrow's Flight and Arrow's Fall (the whole Talia/Dirk/Kris thing). However, Misty redeemed even these books with otherwise excellent and engaging plots and prose. Jean Auel doesn't do that. Her characters are much worse when it comes to being inconsistent with their basic characterization in the text (the whole Ayla/Jondalar/Ranec plotline in "Mammoth Hunters" depends on the idea that not one of them has the social instinct that God gave a dead weasel). With Talia, it was just one little (albeit annoying) inconsistency. And, thanks God, Misty doesn't overdo it or make these kind of blinded conflicts the entirety of her stories. In fact, the Arrow's books are the only ones where that is really a problem. Anyway, the other thing that I don't like about the Earth's Children books is that it continues this whole tradition of "humans were originally matriarchal until something went wrong." While I agree that Auel, like any historical fiction writer is free to make up any society she wants so long as it does not contradict the existing facts, I do think that she makes some rather extensive stretches with little evidence. There is no evidence, one way or the other, that humanity was ever a matriarchy. There are, however, some very good theoretical reasons to think that it probably was not. It is an unfortunate fact that in a pre-industrial and pre-medical society, human physiology has stacked the decks against women. Spending most of your life either pregnant or recovering from a pregnancy is not conducive to ruling anything. Anyone who thinks differently should go ahead and talk to some of the older women in our own society who remember the days before birth control. The old adage of "one in her and one on her at all times" is not funny. That was the fate of a lot of women who had no choice. They couldn't choose to not become pregnant when they did have sex, and they frequently didn't have a choice about having sex. I do not think that life was so different in human pre-history that women were usually given the luxury of deciding whether they would or would not have sex at a given time, even assuming that the rhythm method of contraception was derivable in those times. (BTW, this is a public service announcement for women on this list: If you are not already aware of this fact, THE RHYTHM METHOD IS NOT A DEPENDABLE FORM OF CONTRACEPTION! That is precisely why it is allowed by the Catholic Church. Sorry, but I had to say that. I have had too many friends who tried rhythm and got pregnant.) Anyway, there are a whole host of other fuzzy lollipop ends that nature gave the female sex that would mitigate against a culture/society in which women ruled. Fortunately, with the aid of technology and modern medicine, most of those assymetries are no longer a problem. All we have to do now is get past countless centuries of human history and social construction of gender and sex. Anyway, where was I going with this? I don't remember. Oh, yeah. I think that one of the things that I like about Misty is that the society that she has constructed for Velgarth (many of the main ones, at least) is plausibly equal opportunity. Well, more so than ours in Valdemar, the Shin'a'in, and the Tayledras. By plausible, I mean that the Velgarthan world, because it uses magic rather than technology, was never the kind of pre-technological/pre-medical world that we were. Presumably, in Velgarth, healing and magic have always been a part of humanity. These would have functioned from the dawn of Velgarthan history to balance the power assymetry that we find in this world. Also, the presence of a simple herbal contraceptive for women would help. Women would have a choice in Velgarth about childbirth. One suspects that there are fewer innordinately large families in Velgarth and fewer women expending their lives in being walking baby factories. This would explain the relative parity of the sexes in Valdemar and the other cultures that I mentioned. Anyway, something I think would be cool is if Jean Auel and Misty teamed up. Ms. Auel could do the anthropology and research and Misty could plot the novel. Hopefully, with Misty doing the plot, the stories would not be so terribly tedious and with Ms. Auel's level of research, the novels would be as educational as ever. =) May the seas be your solace and the forests a refuge for your spirit, Cennydd, Mage of the Green Silences. Eu guardo a luz das estrelas a alma de cada folha Sem folhas nao tem vida, Sem folhas nao tem nada, Salve as folhas! Kenneth Allen Hyde | No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife Univ. of Delaware | between the shoulder blades will seriously Dept. of Linguistics | cramp his style -- Old Jhereg proverb kenny-+AT+-strauss.udel.edu | A mind is a terrible toy to waste! -- Me ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 20:56:10 -0700 (MST) From: mrtmh-+AT+-primenet.com (Lady 'Reesa And Tina) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Eagle and Nightengale Message-ID: <199604170356.UAA15220-+AT+-usr3.primenet.com> Okay, I've probably already offended someone, so forgive me in advance. I have to say guys, that I tend to agree with Cennydd and Heather on this issue. I thought the "Sacrificed God" religion was a lame cop-out. Before anyone says "Oh she must be a Christian.", let me assure you, I'm not. I'm about as Pagan as you can get, so it's not in defense of my own religion that I write this. First, I had always before been immpressed by Misty, because of her steadfast refusal to religion bash. I've got mine and you've got yours, and gee, lookie, we can still even be in the same room without killing or converting each other. I liked her characterisation of Mero, as a follower of the One. I have met and become firends with many loving, accepting, really NICE Christians, and he reminded me of them. Unfortunately, he seems to be the only follower we're going to see. I guess what I liked was that the major problems in her world was NOT religion, for a change. So, all unsuspecting, I went and read L&W. I can still read it, for fluff, No-think reading, but it isn't my favorite book, and it never will be. It bugs the hell out of me that she couldn't use her imagination enough to come up with something not quite so obvious. Yes, Paganism is ignored or "Bad" in some novels, but that is no reason to go and insult the intelligence of a good tow thirds of your readers (No, I don't have any figures, but that sounded like a good guess). Yes, not every Christian is nice, but neither is every Pagan. Neither religion is for everyone, which is why there are SO MANY of them! What I'm trying to get across, and I think failing at, is that it's NOT all black and white. The Christian church is NOT the only source of oppresion. Pagan's are NOT always happy, good, and right (Just ask any of my friends...), and Misty could have done way better with the storyline than have it get caught up with a ton and a half of religious discrimination. It is possible to make a world seem real without insulting anyone. She should know. Apparently she just forgot that between one Valdemar book and the next. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Lady 'Reesa<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Just one final thought. Writing is like sex: people do it all the time, in all sorts of ways, but only those with good control, technique, and length (or depth) really stand out. -Jake Adamo/Rynath In Green '96 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>mrtmh-+AT+-primenet.com<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 21:03:04 -0700 (MST) From: mrtmh-+AT+-primenet.com (Lady 'Reesa And Tina) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: A strange request (Off topic) Message-ID: <199604170403.VAA12401-+AT+-usr6.primenet.com> Well, here we go again with the server problems. I sent this a couple days ago, so unless Vanyel is really behind, it didn't get there. If it shows up twice, you MAY flog me. Thanks. First, let me say that I have no idea of the Netiquette involved with this question. I'm going to ask it anyway, and hope I have not broken a common sense rule or offended anyone (Although, as my listmates are no doubt saying to themselves right now, it wouldn't be the first time!:>) I am currently working on a novel involving an abused teenage boy. I've looked everywhere for case studies, autobiographies ect., but can't seem to find anything relating specifically to the physical abuse of teenagers. If anyone knows of any books, or would willingly share a personal story, I would be eternally grateful. Anything anyone wants to tell me will be kept completely confidential, unless otherwise stated in your letter. PLEASE RESPOND TO MY E-MAIL ADDRESS, NOT THE LIST!!!!! ObMisty: I wonder where Misty got her information on abuse? I've read "When Rabbit Howls" (Very scary book) but I just can't seem to relate most of the experiences to my character. Thanks for the patience everyone. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Lady 'Reesa<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Just one final thought. Writing is like sex: people do it all the time, in all sorts of ways, but only those with good control, technique, and length (or depth) really stand out. -Jake Adamo/Rynath In Green '96 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>mrtmh-+AT+-primenet.com<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 22:15:26 -0700 (PDT) From: catwoman To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Talamir- Previous Queen's Own Message-ID: <199604170515.WAA25862-+AT+-inreach.com.> At 12:03 4/10/96 +0100, you wrote: >On page 194 of AOTQ when Keren, Teren, and Talia were talking about Talamir >Keren said, "Grandfather used to claim he never knew what he was going to say >to the King beforehand, yet it was always exactly the right thing."- end >quote. A little while back in the book it said that Rolan took 2 months to >choose Talia after Talamir but wouldn't Selenay have ruled before than also? >What I'm getting at is that wouldn't Talamir have been advising the QUEEN not >the KING? Did I happen to find a typo or is that supposed to be like that? >Comments? Selenay's father was killed during the T(something) Wars, remember? Selenay assumed the throne, and it is mentioned in one of the books (can't remember which Arrows it is) that Talamir wasn't used to advising a head-strong woman, and didn't quite know how to deal with Selenay. I forget which Arrows it is...but its somewhere... -catwoman-+AT+-inreach.com Cat Person and still looking for a spiffy sig.. ------------------------------ Date: 17 Apr 96 01:08:32 EDT From: Jake / Rynath in Green <102744.2515-+AT+-CompuServe.COM> To: "INTERNET:mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk" Subject: Re: MERCEDES-LACKEY digest 479 Re: Lammas Night Message-ID: <960417050832_102744.2515_GHT128-2-+AT+-CompuServe.COM> Mannaheim wrote: . Well, that certainly is a long list. But my question is, didn't .Misty write a book called Lammas Night? Or was it just In Celebration of .Lammas Night? This has me confused. Please help me! Mannaheim, the book is called _In Celebration of Lammas Night_ and it was a short story collection in which her poem "Lammas Night" and her story "Hallowmas Night" appeared. "Lammas Night" also is a song on "Magic Moondust and Melancholy." Dli kea'bemfoska akota'tyaaka-ne puku kea'tabhoka-beku (*) Rynath / Jake House Champion of the Ladies in Green Member of the Misty Mountain Vale The Hopeless Bibliomaniac 102744.2515-+AT+-compuserve.com (*) For all of you who want ask me, it means "May the bones of your enemies form a bridge beneath your feet." It's from _Mind of the Magic_ by Holly Lisle. ------------------------------ Date: 17 Apr 96 01:05:30 EDT From: Jake / Rynath in Green <102744.2515-+AT+-CompuServe.COM> To: "INTERNET:mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk" Subject: Re: MERCEDES-LACKEY digest 479 Re: Printers Message-ID: <960417050530_102744.2515_GHT128-1-+AT+-CompuServe.COM> Mannaheim wrote: > Eeep! That's not a nice thing to say about a printer. And, as a >computer geek and techie freak, I can say that printers dont make those >kinds of errors. The software and hardware aren't capable of doing those >kinds of things. Now, if it garbled words, or left some out, that would >be possible. But just putting in one wrong letter can't happen. Umm, I think she means the printer as in the person that works in a place which prints books over a printer as a piece of hardware. Someone who lays out a book.. Dli kea'bemfoska akota'tyaaka-ne puku kea'tabhoka-beku (*) Rynath / Jake House Champion of the Ladies in Green Member of the Misty Mountain Vale The Hopeless Bibliomaniac 102744.2515-+AT+-compuserve.com (*) For all of you who want ask me, it means "May the bones of your enemies form a bridge beneath your feet." It's from _Mind of the Magic_ by Holly Lisle. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 00:43:12 -0500 (CDT) From: winkle-+AT+-imsa.edu To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: re: Tech Level on Velgarth Message-ID: <199604170543.AAA25361-+AT+-pepsi.imsa.edu> As far as I know (from role-playing, a very long time ago), ballistas are just really big, heavy-duty catapults. No gunpowder there. Siege engines I remember less about, but I don't think they had a very high "tech level" either. Just enough machinery so that they could move around relatively easily and bash big holes in walls, IIRC... But I think Tremane was more worried about the "boggles," or whatever the magestorm-twisted thingys were called, bashing through walls than some human being trying to kill him. He's an Empire lad; he's had plenty of experience with that. Or maybe siege engines don't bash holes in walls. I've completely forgotten; those days when my characters commanded armies are long gone. *grin* But I do remember, however, Kero talking at one point about a way to delay Ancar, and it had something to do with lots of fake Heralds and some twisted creation made out of broken bits that was supposed to look sufficiently impressive as to make Ancar pay attention to it, and not to whatever else was going on. I think it was where someone mentioned, "Oh, it's a good thing [for the rest of the world] we're honest!" Ah well. Much too tired. Don't want to do paper. Sorry for babbling... Oh, and I'm two months from seventeen now. Whee... *grin* Just my 2 cents. Libby winkle-+AT+-imsa.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 03:05:23 -0400 From: Susan5683-+AT+-aol.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Eagle and Nightingale objections Message-ID: <960417030522_515676723-+AT+-emout10.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 96-04-16 21:39:02 EDT, you write: snip >ere was no need for her to include the "manufactories" in >the book except to have another group to demonize (a group which >wouldn't have anything to do with the *plot*!), and she presented >them as unmitigated evil. snip um, i think you sound a little like you are being offended merely for the sake of being offended--she didnt say the manufactories were evil, in fact she went out of her way to point out that they provided much needed jobs, what she said was that some greedy officials and those RUNNING the manufactories were trying to pass a bunch of laws to make poor treatment of employees legal, including child labor and round the clock with no holidays in case you didnt know this was the case in our world when industrialization first began, child labor, overtime, low pay and no time off were the norm--that is why we have that group of laws know as labor laws in addition, i believe she was drawing a metaphor between the behavior of lobbyists, and in some cases unions and the manufactories of the stor and other evils . greed is a motivation which can ruin even the most benevolent societies, when we are more motivated by greed than by the needs of others, that is evil and finally, it seems to me the whole point of one side issue of the story has been ignored for what is really trivial stuff--capitalism as a whole is a good thing, it encourages a person to strive for the betterment of her/him self and those about whome on cares, but greed is a prime motivator and you and i must both admit to that (oops see two paragraphs down) also, since i think "organized religion" which for the most part i believe you could substitute organized brainwashing, i mean have you spent any time in the typical methodist, catholic, presbyterian etc, etc, sunday school class? the teacher says things are thus and so and there are no questions and answers--the chld simply parrots back what they are told, is for the birds and not people! i cant argue with the evils of the church of the sacrificed GOd which lends itself to a comparison to the medieval catholic church however, the most telling comparison of all in the story has been left virtually untouched the comparison of prejudice based on a beings looks, skin tone, hair color, tusks and horse hair optional, on the whole the book draws unflattering comparisons to the evils of our society, both past and present, and whether you agree with those comparisons or not, you must admit the validity of them and finally, didnt you notice that there were good guys from all walks of life, including the church and business men in the book? i am now donning flame proof armor and a crash helmet, ladies and gentlemen flame away!!! Lady Susanna green pathways open before thee and wind ever at thy back ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 03:05:29 -0400 From: Susan5683-+AT+-aol.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Tech Level on Velgarth Message-ID: <960417030527_515676796-+AT+-mail06> In a message dated 96-04-17 00:30:39 EDT, you write: > Then he mentions "siege engines" Of everything I've >read about medieval times, siege engines were not cannons. (1st quote, p23, >2nd, p24) Simple mistakes? um, i thought (assumed) siege engines were either those tower things, they used to build in a skinny rectangle, like a hollow box, they would have ladders inside and they would push them up against castles and you would climb up them, protected by the outside, where arrows couldnt get you, and onto the wall however, this practice didnt work so good because the people on the inside of the castle learned to pour boiling pitch down on you while you were inside the tower (i know its gross but the pursuit of knowledge leads you to wierd turns) if they arent those, or catapults, or battering ram things, i dont have a clue, any ideas? sorry to be so vague but it has been a long time since i read stuff about medieval castles and warfare also, just for the record, since in Arrows they mention indoor plumbing with running water and also herbs for the purpose of birth control--they are far more advanced than the actual medieval society of our world, indoor plumbing with running water did not come along until late victorian times, chamber pots were the thing, and privies and garderobes, which were basically little rooms with holes in the floor--if you were lucky there was a water supply under the castle garderobe which carried sewage away--it is my belief that the lack of sanitation is the main cause of the various plagues medieval man was subjected to, which for the most part comparatively speaking the people of Velgarth are amazingly healthy i hope i am done expoundifying for a while, i am anticipating my dear and learned acquaintance Sir Mage to co me along and correct me!!!! (no offense Sir Mage) :) Lady Susanna green pathways open before thee and wind ever at thy back ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 02:17:53 CST From: Heather Watson To: Subject: Re: Prostitutes Message-ID: <17APR96.02482127.0047.MUSIC-+AT+-NEMOMUS> Lady, boy howdy did you just push some of my buttons. I'm a fairly sweet, aw-shucks kind of person, so I'm not going to flame you or anything, but I think, to be quite blunt, that your analysis of the Alanda situation is overly colored by feminist bedtime stories of the Marvelous Matriarchy. Now, I'm a women's studies minor (would be major, if my university offered it as a major), and a raving feminist, and something of an activist -- Executive Board of the Women's Resource Center, steering committee of the Les Bi Gay student group, Victim Support Services employee, the whole bleedingheart package. I'm also a history major. And I've seen a lot of convincing evidence that at one point, women were more respected and valued than they are today. What I have never seen is anything that implies that people were better back then, or that women ruled benevolently and men rule harshly. We could argue that back and forth, but I don't think it's the point, nor is it on topic. I have no problem with saying that in a society that wasn't sexist or patriarchal (and I'm not at all sure that Alanda's society *wasn't* those things) women would have more control over their sex lives. Fine. Good. Sensible. I do have a problem with the idea that a society like that would have whorehouses as we understand them. If women are so free and independant, why are they the prostitutes and men the clients? Why is sex still women's work in this happy world? You maintain that Alanda prostitutes are in control of their sex lives. Nonsense. They are not choosing these men. They are accepting payment for sex. Those of us who are truly in control of our sexuality generally prefer to have sex because we feel like it, not because somebody gives us money. I don't think that's entirely cultural. I think that people want control over their bodies, whoever they are, wherever they are. They want the freedom to say yes or no, for whatever reason or no reason at all. Now, given your background in such issues, you may intend to come back at me with sacred prostitutes. Let me fend you off by saying that for those women, having sex with strangers was a spiritual act, not one of economics or survival. There is no implication that there are emotional connotations to prostitution on Alanda. It's simply a business transaction. Again, there certainly is a place in history for high-class prostitutes. They were among the most powerful women in certain cultures, like Greece in some periods, or Enlightenment France, often well-educated, famous, and accomplished -- the equivalent of modern-day movie-stars. And if Misty wants to write about that, okay. I have only two objections. First, there *were* two safe, pleasant, clean brothels, and only the faintest whiff of danger and unhappiness on the foggy horizon. This makes it *appear* as though happy hookers are the norm, and everything else the exception. But the very references to the contempt society had for prostitutes proves that it was a low-status occupation. So why do these ostensibly free women choose to work in an occupation that their society deems, at best, inappropriate? Just for the sex? If everyone's so free on Alanda, they should be able to get that anyway. It appears as though their choices were at least limited to the point that these talented, bright women were near the very bottom of the social ladder. Presumably they had *no other choice,* or else they would have been ambitious enough to at least attempt to better their position. And when women have no real choice except to surrender their freedom of choice in such a basic matter as who does and does not touch their bodies, there's a problem. It's all well and good to say that Alanda exists in the pretty universe of equality and womanspirit and all that, but lacking any textual evidence, it's best to rein in our Mists of Avalon wish fullfillments and stick to what's presented. Alanda was not presented as a paradise, free of gender conflict and greedy male corruption, no matter what we'd like to read about, or believe in. Sorry if I'm being unbearably rude. I just hate the implication that (to be facetious) if we'd never figured out that men had something to do with children, everyone would be blissfully happy. That implies that sexism is somehow inevitable, unless women (who are good and wise) keep men (who are quarrelsome and stupid) in line and carefully governed. That's just not true. Um, anyway, welcome to the list. Delurked with a bang, didn't you? Well, thanks for sharing your ideas, even if I disagree with them. My honorable listmates can tell you that I tend toward the passionate (no jokes, please) when it comes to women -- and toward the verbose. You'll get used to me, I suppose, or you'll hate me. By the by, in case anyone seriously wondered, the whole gay thread started when I was musing about Firesong and about what proportion of the Tayledras would be open to same-sex relationships. Yes, that one was my fault, too. But I claim no responsibility for the Elspeth debate! I didn't start that one! Nice to know there's one controversial issue that happened without my help. HTH Ladies' Aid & Armor Society ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 00:24:58 -0700 From: Lara Keyser To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: A kind of odd request Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19960417072458.00673d9c-+AT+-silcom.com> Heyla all, Is there a web page or something that lists Valdemar character names? I'm looking for a new IRC nick :-) I'm not to the Storms books yet, but I'd like to know if there are any female firecats... Any help would be much appreciated! Thanks, Lara ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 02:40:58 CST From: Heather Watson To: Subject: Re: Sacred Ground & Diana Tregarde Message-ID: <17APR96.02897534.0047.MUSIC-+AT+-NEMOMUS> I didn't like Sacred Ground. It didn't annoy me. There was just nothing to it. There was a whole lot of stuff about Native American spirituality, which was very informative but mostly just informative, and a plot involving bad guys blowing things up, and an evil real-estate developer, and other such corporate shenanigans. I don't know, it just seemed so mechanical. No guts, no glory. Part of what turned me off was that it was such a Diana Tregarde rip off. Mystery plot. Magic-using woman with long dark hair. Rogue ex-boyfriend named David. Sad when an author has to plagarize her own work. As for the guardian issue, I think it's cool that we don't know where this comes from or why. It makes the story more personal. After all, no one gave Diana the handbook. She doesn't know. Why should we? Dealing with the Ultimate Powers is a very high-fantasy kind of thing. The Star-Eyed turns people into eagles and pushes them off cliffs and takes their fur away and turns their clothes black and is generally around and doing things. Ehlanna reincarnates as the main character's daughter and generally makes a nuisance of herself. I'm sure if I'd kept reading Wheel of Time, gods would have showed up. They do that in high fantasy, which is appropriate, I guess, because high fantasy is the story of a whole world, and world-shaking events, and divine intervention makes some sense on that scope. Urban fantasy is a different kettle of fish. It's supposed to feel closer to home. You're supposed to wonder if maybe the world really doesn't work like that, and we just don't know it. It's more personal in a way, because that could be you. Therefore, you don't want the main characters' experiences to be too wildly different from yours. You don't want them to have the Key to the Secrets of the Universe. I don't know who or what is behind the strange things that happen in the real world. I just have to puzzle my way through it. I like the fact that Diana is in the same boat; the things are just weirder. She doesn't know why things are the way they are or why she gets stuck with these powers or what's going to happen to her when she dies. She doesn't know if she'll be rewarded for her hard work, or if the Powers That Be see her as anything other than a front-line grog doing their work for them. She has to settle on what makes sense to her, and accept that there are answers that no one intends to give her. Who created Nightflyer? What makes Faye evil? These are just questions that remain unanswered for Diana, just like questions remain for us. It lends the series, and the contemporary fantasty genre in general, I think, a feeling of immediacy, of familiarity. Frankly, if all the questions are answered, it seems too easy to me. I can't relate anymore. I have enough trouble relating to people who know with utter certainty that anyone in Herald's whites is going to be trustworthy and that no sacrifice will ever be in vain, because a final strike kills anything. I'd like a little more certainty in my life and a little less in my fiction. HTH Ladies' Aid & Armor Society ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 16:19:00 +0800 From: ywlau-+AT+-singnet.com.sg To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Apologies Message-ID: <199604170819.QAA15575-+AT+-sunflower.singnet.com.sg> Sorry everyone, I kind of like forgot that there was a Lady Moonsong on the list. Sorry, Lady! I also wanted to ask if anyone knows the e-mail add. for Firebird Arts and Music. I'd like to e-mail them regarding the ML tapes. Thanx in advance! Zhai'helleva, Jeanette. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 16:24:05 +0800 From: ywlau-+AT+-singnet.com.sg To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Message-ID: <199604170824.QAA17510-+AT+-sunflower.singnet.com.sg> I'm really sorry that this is so short. I forgot to include it my earlier e-mail. I'd like to know who the Cat people and the Ladies in Green are, and what these 2 groups are? Zhai'helleva, Jeanette. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 10:30:58 +0100 From: mel (Melanie Dymond Harper) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-herald.co.uk Subject: Re: ADMIN: let me repeat this, once more, with feeling. Message-ID: <9604170930.AA21268-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk> Shadow-Lover wrote: > At 01:46 PM 4/10/96 +0100, you wrote: > > > >No. Chain. Letters. > > > >I really mean this. > > > >Mel. > > > > Umm... Forgive this but I gotta: Due to the fact that we, the readers, are > meant to read this posting, heed it's warning, and follow it's directions > without fail under penalty of horrible things happening to us... By > defintion doesn't that make this a chain letter? *grin* Nope. Because I didn't tell you to forward it to N million other people ... Mel. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 13:46:21 GMT From: STOKES J <95662014-+AT+-mmu.ac.uk> To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Big List(again) form Message-ID: <5A3CCE601A2-+AT+-EXCALIBUR.MMU.AC.UK> could the person who is compiling the Big List mail me privite mode as my G*d d^&% computer has erased all of my mail files that I was saving to reply to. My address is 95662014-+AT+-MMU.AC.UK Thank you Kalen Shena Vuysher'edras[OIB] ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 14:03:25 GMT From: STOKES J <95662014-+AT+-mmu.ac.uk> To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Re: Gays/bi/hetero Message-ID: <5A4163744EC-+AT+-EXCALIBUR.MMU.AC.UK> >From: "AMY E. BAUER" >obMisty: There aren't any primates in Velgarth other than people. .. >amy I beg to differ, does not Eldans' Companion call him "hairless ape" at some point Kalen Shena Vuysher'edras ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 13:46:13 GMT From: STOKES J <95662014-+AT+-mmu.ac.uk> To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: GAYS [really off-topic] Message-ID: <58BCBCD0AC2-+AT+-EXCALIBUR.MMU.AC.UK> > Date sent: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 07:33:13 +0100 > Send reply to: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk > From: Marissa K Lingen > To: 95662014-+AT+-mmu.ac.uk > Subject: Re: GAYS [really off-topic] > Okay, there's been some discussion of this subject, and this list > seems to be filled with tolerant people, so I'll ask for help. My > "best girlfriend" at home told me he was gay this weekend. I really > wasn't sure what to say to him--I mean, when people say, "I'm okay > with that", it seems so presumptuous--I always want to ask them, "Who > the hell asked *you* to be okay with that?" I just sort of bumbled > through with the doesn't make any difference to me and I still love > you thing, but I don't know if that's enough--especially since I'm > the first person he's told (17-year-old high school juniors in > Nebraska are *not* advised to come out of the closet--at best it'd > get them beaten bloody, at worst--who knows?). Any suggestions for > anything else I could say? > --Morticia All I suggest is that you be supportive to him and do you best to help him cope with any negative things that happen to him. Kalen Shena vuysher'edras ------------------------------ End of MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 482 *********************************