MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 510 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re: companions dying by Tammy Harris 2) Re: Star Wars -Reply by Robbie Betts 3) Re: MA Pierce, S&S III by "Jill" 4) Re: Of Drawbridges and Cover Art by Soljan-+AT+-aol.com 5) Re: companions dying by kadessa-+AT+-ix.netcom.com (Leah M Postrech) 6) Re:Tantris/Dantris/Tantras (Say that 3 times fast! :) by "Jill" 7) Re: Second winds book... by kadessa-+AT+-ix.netcom.com (Leah M Postrech) 8) Re: Tantras/Star Wars by Heather Watson 9) Re: Second winds book... by Leah M Postrech 10) Re: book lovers by kadessa-+AT+-ix.netcom.com (Leah M Postrech) 11) Re: Good News!!!!! by "J. Morrison" 12) Re: Star Wars by kadessa-+AT+-ix.netcom.com (Leah M Postrech) 13) Re: Singaporeans (off-topic) by kadessa-+AT+-ix.netcom.com (Leah M Postrech) 14) Re: book lovers by "Katherine M. Brielmaier" 15) Re: Birdcage by Rossinyol 16) Re: Heinlein by Marissa K Lingen 17) Re: companions dying by Rossinyol 18) re: Heinlein by Rossinyol 19) Re: S&S IV by Nitebird 20) Re: Star Wars by Rossinyol 21) Re: Vanyel's Hair by Rossinyol 22) Re: Stuff by cscd3150121-+AT+-ewu.edu 23) GGK? by Raingcats-+AT+-aol.com 24) PEOPLE GET IT RIGHT!!!!!!!!!! by Raingcats-+AT+-aol.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 12:58:48 -0500 From: Tammy Harris To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: companions dying Message-ID: <1F2E9DD3B71-+AT+-medicine.dmed.iupui.edu> > On Thu, 25 Apr 1996, Birgit Hanel wrote: > > > Just something that occured to me: > > Are the Companions really *aware* that they once were Heralds? And Jaguar replied: > Yes! And I have some textual evidence to prove it to Cennydd's > satisfaction. :) > TxtEvd: At some point in Storm Rising (I don't have the > book...Sundaaanceeeer!) Florian mentions something about "Depending on > how many times one comes back" or "comes around." Bother. Now I want that > book! Also, Gwena accidentally calling Sayvil Savil seems to indicate that she knew her as a Herald and retained that memory. At least, that's how I see it. Later! Tammy "It's time to ask yourself what you believe" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 15:17:04 -0400 From: Robbie Betts To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Star Wars -Reply Message-ID: wrote: "Me! Opening night in London's Leicester Square - it wasn't 20 years ago was it? Oh my, how time flies! ciao, Esmeralda" Sorry, in this case time files. Fortuantely we have cabinets that go back that far and even further! Robbie (soon to be 35) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 15:04:30 EDT From: "Jill" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: MA Pierce, S&S III Message-ID: <978D341944-+AT+-pub.sbu.edu> To whomever asked about the Darkangel trilogy by Meredith Ann Piere ... I've read the first two, but have never found the third ("The Pearl at the Soul of the World"). The first two were pretty good, if I remember correctly. I haven't read them since high school ... (Jill restrains self from running back home to dig up said books and reread them.) :) Anyway, I also remember "The Birth of the Firebringer", which I believe she wrote. Anyone know anything about a sequel? I *loved* that book. Speaking of hard-to-find books, I've been sitting here laughing evilly because *I* have a copy of the elusive S&S III. Actually, I have them all. And nobody, but *nobody* is going to get them away from me! :) Of course, if there's anyone else out there from WNY, you're welcome to borrow them. I think it's just Lyn and Me marooned out here, though. Jill Morrison morrisjm-+AT+-sbu.edu ; Merlyn3109-+AT+-aol.com "I'm the evil midnight writer what writes at midnight! Yeah, yeah!" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 15:30:31 -0400 From: Soljan-+AT+-aol.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Of Drawbridges and Cover Art Message-ID: <960425153030_280523629-+AT+-emout14.mail.aol.com> AliFarr wrote: > As a horse person, I tend to look at the >Companions as much as their Heralds: Gwena is wearing a bit in her mouth on >one cover, on another she is shown in a curb hackamore, which I suppose would >be okay if such a thing existed and the representations of the Heralds >saddles are such that the Heralds are completely off balance and would have >very sore butts after the first hour in the saddle. My sister noticed this also. Yes, the same highly critical sister. I have a feeling you'll be hearing a lot about her. She might even join this list. (Or at least read what I get and respond.) Anyway, she was really annoyed at those covers. I think it was the Arrows that she said something about the stirrpus being to long. It might have been another book. She and I also noticed that Rolan keeps changing colors, from purplish tint, to a yellowish or vice-versa. She loved the pictures of Altra, but noticed that the cover illus. was totally different than the inside illustration. Ummmm, nothing else ff the top of my head. Lady Silvermoon (in a nice green dress) "May the moon light your path and guide you to your destiny." ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 12:30:30 -0700 From: kadessa-+AT+-ix.netcom.com (Leah M Postrech) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: companions dying Message-ID: <199604251930.MAA17607-+AT+-dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com> You wrote: > > >Khenta Blaufalk asked: > >> Just something that occured to me: >> Are the Companions really *aware* that they once were Heralds? >> They may be able to remember some skills they used to have in their human >> form (eg like Sayvil having knowledge about magic from her live as Savil), >> but do they really remember their past life, the persons they used to be, >> who their friends were, their family , how they died and all that? >>IIRC we don't see any evidence for that. But neither for the >>contrary. I fancy that they do have some (however basic) innate >>(sp?) knowledge, but that they don't remember their actual, >>individual past; eg like it was with Stefen: he didn't remember that >>he once was 'Lendel, but he knew things which he couldn't have >>learned in his present life. >There's a bit from WoFury, when Vanyel is explaining himself to >Elspeth, and talking about Gwenna's behaviour ... >:...Be gentle on her, Elspeth; as Companions go - when compared to, >say, Sayvil - she is very, very young. No older than you, in fact. She >makes all the kinds of mistakes any young thing makes, but because she >is Grove born , she thinks she will always make the right decision.: >He shook his head. :She forgets that she has _no_ (ML's emphasis) real >human experience to base her decisions on ..: > >This would seem to suggest that some companions DO have real human >experience to draw on, in particular telling us that Sayvil HAS got >human experience, and that she's been around a bit. > >ciao >Esmeralda >(unaffiliated) My assumption when I read this in the book was that Grove-born Companions were "new" spirits, that never lived as a Herald. I the beginning of some books, in the Chronicles, it said that all the first Companions were Grove-born. This would make sense, because there had never been any Heralds until the Companions came. Does anyone else think my idea has any merit? Lady Bard Kadessa of Heilmarsh Keep "Life is like a journey, who knows when it ends..." e-mail address: Kadessa-+AT+-ix.netcom.com Windfoenix-+AT+-aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 15:38:03 EDT From: "Jill" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re:Tantris/Dantris/Tantras (Say that 3 times fast! :) Message-ID: <980E4D36A8-+AT+-pub.sbu.edu> Esmeralda wrote: >Weell, according to the list on >http://www.tardis.ed.ac.uk/~ism/lackey/info/herald_companions.html >Ylsa-Felara >Keren-Dantris >Teren-Wythra >Kris-Tantris >Tantras-Delian >Jaysen-Felar >Daren-Jasan Yeeks! Felara? Felar? This just may solve those questions about Companions coming back twice, and ones about Companions/Heralds coming back in different-sex bodies. :) Wythra and Delian both sound familiar ... anyone think of similarly named Heralds? And by the way ... don't ask about the new sig. Don't even ASK! Jill Morrison morrisjm-+AT+-sbu.edu ; Merlyn3109-+AT+-aol.com "I'm the evil midnight writer what writes at midnight! Yeah, yeah!" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 12:58:17 -0700 From: kadessa-+AT+-ix.netcom.com (Leah M Postrech) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Second winds book... Message-ID: <199604251958.MAA18713-+AT+-dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com> (snip) >things which do not look quite right: In MPromise, after Vanyel was >told about Jaysen's death by Tantras, he replied that he knew it, but >didn't know how Jaysen died (his words were, I think, "he never told >me how" or something like that (to quote some of you on the list, >me-+AT+-school, books-+AT+-home :-) )) My question is, of course, why didn't >Tantras show any surprise at that. (snip) It was "he didn't tell me how" but you were close enough. :) That's a really good question, why Tantras didn't show any surprise. Maybe he misunderstood when Van said that. :) Just a guess. Lady Bard Kadessa of Heilmarsh Keep "Life is like a journey, who knows when it ends..." e-mail address: Kadessa-+AT+-ix.netcom.com Windfoenix-+AT+-aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 15:12:56 CST From: Heather Watson To: Subject: Re: Tantras/Star Wars Message-ID: <25APR96.16433046.0192.MUSIC-+AT+-NEMOMUS> It's a PROBLEM that you can't easily see the tennis shoe in the fight sequence? I think it sounds like a mercy. And yes, for those of you who are getting puzzled (it's obvious from the posts that there's one or two of you out there, and probably more who aren't commenting): TANTRIS was Kris' Companion, DANTRIS was either Keren or Teren's Companion (damn, can't remember now, had it just a second ago), and TANTRAS was a Herald in the LHM trilogy, one of Vanyel's dearest friends. He's the guy Van is flirting with at the beginning of MPromise, and he generally pops up all over the place in LHM. Are we all straight now? (No jokes. You know what I mean.) Ah, yes, and also: Tantras' friends called him Tran. So TANTRIS and TRAN are also the same person. Just trying to head off any other possible sources of confusion. HTH "We're not alcoholics. We're the authors." ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 13:07:38 -0700 From: Leah M Postrech To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Second winds book... Message-ID: <199604252007.NAA19112-+AT+-dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com> (snip) > And in MPrice, isn't Van supposed to be the Northern Guardian? Yet at >some point I remember reading a reference to him as the Eastern >Guardian. Or am I just imagining things?? (snip) Sorry I didn't include this in my last post, but I just realized what it said. (Vacation does that. :) ) Savil was the Guardian of the East, in Shavri's place (p. 38, MPromise) and after Jaysen died, Van became the Guardian of the North, in Jaysen's place. Lady Bard Kadessa of Heilmarsh Keep "Life is like a journey, who knows when it ends..." e-mail address: Kadessa-+AT+-ix.netcom.com Windfoenix-+AT+-aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 13:30:18 -0700 From: kadessa-+AT+-ix.netcom.com (Leah M Postrech) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: book lovers Message-ID: <199604252030.NAA24959-+AT+-dfw-ix12.ix.netcom.com> >EEEP! All the teachers around the world are the same!!!!!<---5! I'm in >Lady Wintersong's class, so you can conclude that we are doing the >same book for lit. Just want to ask, who has read LOTF, and who likes >the book? I'm very curious. > > Wind to thy wings all, > Lady Windsong > One of the Ladies in Green I read LOTF two years ago, but never really liked it. I think it's the stigma of required reading for school. There has only been one book that I really enjoyed reading for school, Clan of the Cave Bear (excellent book :) ) and I had read it prior to be assigned. There are a couple books that I've read which I would probably have thoroughly enjoyed if they hadn't been required. I don't think books should be required; it ruins them IMO. :) Lady Bard Kadessa of Heilmarsh Keep "Life is like a journey, who knows when it ends..." e-mail address: Kadessa-+AT+-ix.netcom.com Windfoenix-+AT+-aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 16:56:33 EDT From: "J. Morrison" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Good News!!!!! Message-ID: <99639354E9-+AT+-pub.sbu.edu> > I found out yesterday that I am a semi-finalist in the National > Library of Poetry's Contest and that my poem will be printed in one of > their anthologies!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I have the name and ISBN at home, > and will bring in the information is anyone is interested. (snip) Oh, congratulations! :) Lucky you ... I have never had any talent at all at poetry. Post the name and information when you find it! :) And congrads, again! Jill Morrison morrisjm-+AT+-sbu.edu ; Merlyn3109-+AT+-aol.com "I'm the evil midnight writer what writes at midnight! Yeah, yeah!" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 13:20:47 -0700 From: kadessa-+AT+-ix.netcom.com (Leah M Postrech) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Star Wars Message-ID: <199604252020.NAA22083-+AT+-dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com> >>notice him or would his powers be too trivial to bother with? > Ma'ar, or whatever his latest incarnation was, would eat Vader >for breakfast. And if he didn't, either the vrondi, the Star-Eyed, or >Vkandis Sunlord would. Actually, I don't think the vrondi would bother him, because they only go after mages, and if the Force could be compared to Gifts, it would probably be closer to Fetching, Mindspeech, etc., rather than the Mage-gift. (Except for lightening, now that I think of it.) Also, Ma'ar (or whoever he was), the Star-Eyed, or Vkandis probably wouldn't bother him unless he went after thier respective people or power(in Ma'ar's case. :) ) According to my brother, who is a total Star Wars maniac, a dark Jedi would be able to take over whatever they wanted because they're so powerful. So maybe Darth Vader would come and conquer all of Velgarth and surrounding, planets, hmm? (I really can't back up this claim, as all I know of it is what my brother tells me, and he knows nothing of Velgarth (his loss :) )) Lady Bard Kadessa of Heilmarsh Keep "Life is like a journey, who knows when it ends..." e-mail address: Kadessa-+AT+-ix.netcom.com Windfoenix-+AT+-aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 14:41:08 -0700 From: kadessa-+AT+-ix.netcom.com (Leah M Postrech) To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Singaporeans (off-topic) Message-ID: <199604252141.OAA18163-+AT+-dfw-ix9.ix.netcom.com> >it! It's a dumb question but we have to make do. Errm, do they have >cows on Velgarth? If not, what do they drink in place of cow's milk? >Goat's milk? >(Yuck!) > >Zhai'helleva, > >Lady Wintersong >An Honourable Lady In Green >Cecilia (ckwok-+AT+-rgs.edu.sg) Just so you know, they *do* have cows on Velgarth. In AFlight, on p.129, Talia settles a dispute involving a cow and calf. :) Lady Bard Kadessa of Heilmarsh Keep "Life is like a journey, who knows when it ends..." e-mail address: Kadessa-+AT+-ix.netcom.com Windfoenix-+AT+-aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Apr 96 16:53:07 CST From: "Katherine M. Brielmaier" To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: book lovers Message-ID: <72004.brie0030-+AT+-gold.tc.umn.edu> On Thu, 25 Apr 1996 21:14:01 +0100, Lady Windsong wrote: >EEEP! All the teachers around the world are the same!!!!!<---5! I'm in Lady >Wintersong's class, so you can conclude that we are doing the same book for >lit. Just want to ask, who has read LOTF, and who likes the book? I'm very >curious.> I read it in 10th grade (when I was 14), for English/American Lit, and I remember enjoying it enormously. Of course, I also like John Steinbeck, and Hemingway (to a point), and Solzhenitsyn (I wish this keyboard had Russian characters...it would be so much easier...) and William Faulkner, and all of those Man/Nature/Himself type authors. They have so much *power* in their stories, and they engage the reader in such an immediate way that I really enjoy their work. ObMisty: we never hear about novelists in Velgarth. Is there a Writer's Guild or a College somewhere? No, probably not, but at least I stuck the ObMisty in there! 's e do bheatha, (Life to You) Kaatje ************************************************** And tho' we are not now that strength which once Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are: One equal temper of heroic hearts, Made weak by time and fate but strong in will To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield. --Tennyson ************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 17:55:09 -0400 (EDT) From: Rossinyol To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Birdcage Message-ID: On Thu, 25 Apr 1996, Midnite Whisper wrote: [snippage about the French origin of _The Birdcage_] for those who are interested, the original French version of this film is titled _La Cage Aux Folles_ and there are (I think) 3 movies in the sequence. It is available in most video stores' foreign sections, both in the original French with subtitles and dubbed into English. If you get the dubbed version, you are missing out on a lot, though, so try to find the subtitled version. May the seas be your solace and the forests a refuge for your spirit, Cennydd, Mage of the Green Silences. Eu guardo a luz das estrelas a alma de cada folha Sem folhas nao tem vida, Sem folhas nao tem nada, Salve as folhas! Kenneth Allen Hyde | No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife Univ. of Delaware | between the shoulder blades will seriously Dept. of Linguistics | cramp his style -- Old Jhereg proverb kenny-+AT+-strauss.udel.edu | A mind is a terrible toy to waste! -- Me ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 16:55:56 -0500 From: Marissa K Lingen To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Heinlein Message-ID: <199604252155.QAA11281-+AT+-hotspur.gac.edu> Okay, I *promise* I will only say these few more words about Heinlein. Unless somebody says something incendiary. Or unless I feel like it. Or something. I think it was "Ali Farr" who brought up the "family idyll." I didn't feel like Heinlein's "family life" ideas were that out of touch with my actual family life. Maybe it's that I'm an only child; maybe it's that I assumed that the more minor incidents ("Oh, hell, Junior forgot to take out the trash!") didn't have much impact on the story and thus weren't reported. It was important that Woodie be shown as the hellion, so he was. The rest of them--it wasn't that important. And recall the part with the two youngest kids in _To Sail..._? They certainly weren't angels. In fact, they were perfectly awful. But as for its comparisons with my own family life--in Maureen's house, the kids generally remembered to do their chores and homework (as I did), were eager to please their parents (as I was), did extra studies (I graduated high school early and am still way ahead of most of my stupid college classes). Okay, so maybe my family is atypical, but that doesn't make us impossible. And yes, there are moments when I would forget to clean the bathroom mirror when I was cleaning the house, or when I would put off a report for class to the last minute. But those were not the dominant atmosphere of the house. And can you imagine how long the book would be if Mr. Heinlein had written down that Thus-and-So forgot to do her math homework or Wotsisname didn't dust the living room? For that matter, we don't hear that Talia forgot to do reading for a class in the Arrows books, or anything like that. You simply don't have to go into that in a novel. I don't think the Smiths (Maureen's family in _To Sail..._) were unrealistically perfect at all. Ooh ooh! Analogy time! _The Romantic Manifesto_ time! If you see a beautiful woman with a tiny cold sore, in real life you can ignore the cold sore and just concentrate on the fact that she's beautiful. The cold sore can be unimportant. Now, in fiction, if you show the cold sore, it becomes significant. Some writers do this to death--Sinclair Lewis is the name that pops into my mind. Every flippin' detail is listed--every detail is "significant"--and there really isn't room for any *story*. If Heinlein showed us scenes of family strife all the time, even minor family strife, that would be the impression we would get of the family in general, and I for one would expect it to somehow be important to the plot that the family was fighting a lot. But they're not like that. Nice, normal family. So that's what he shows. That's what's important to the book. Now, if a major part of the book was that the oldest son (can't remember name) had a habit of trying to bully his sibs into doing his chores and it would be a pattern sustained into his adult life and significant to the plot, then the oldest son should be shown trying to bully his sibs into doing his chores for him. Sure, fine, great. I guess all of this buys into a flavor of Romanticism rather than Naturalism--which is, in my never humble opinion, the prevailing "school" of SF/fantasy (although that is, unfortunately, changing). As for the females who avoid conflict, that's not necessarily an *awful* trait. Heather (HTH) had said that her comments on the nature of women (people) who are, as she put it, sneaky are based on her Eddings complaint, not on Heinlein. Fine, and I can understand where you would disagree with the Eddings women in this respect. However, I don't think (once again, in my never humble opinion) that Heinlein did the same thing. It was sort of that Maureen would listen politely to whoever was telling her something, say something that can be summed up in, "Well.", and do what she wanted to anyway. Not the "Lucy/Desi model" (I *hate* that show!), and it wasn't ever with her spouse that I can recall. She was never dishonest and didn't use "feminine wiles" so far as I can remember (me-+AT+-college, books-+AT+-friend's college with friend). She just listened and did what she wanted. It's not the same thing. I understand Heather's frustration with the kind of women who are sugary sweet to your face and catty behind your back. It's just that Heinlein's women aren't like that. --Morticia ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 18:05:34 -0400 (EDT) From: Rossinyol To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: companions dying Message-ID: On Thu, 25 Apr 1996, Rosario Holsen-Baker wrote: > Yes! And I have some textual evidence to prove it to Cennydd's > satisfaction. :) Uh-oh, Cennydd, you now have a reputation! How does it > feel? I started the "Oh my God/dess, half of us are only 14/15/16" bit, > and you started the textevd Gee, my Comp. Lit. profs and my mentor would be so proud of me. My mentor in particular was a fiend for textevd (good abbreviation, BTW). Now, of course, I suppose that I will also be liable for crucifiction every time I make a claim w/o textevd. Oh, well, I suppose that in those cases I will deserve it. ObMisty: I wonder if there are any real universities in Velgarth. There was the medical college that Amberdrake trained at, and there are the Collegia at Havens, but what about universities with a real, broad-spectrum offering of higher learning? May the seas be your solace and the forests a refuge for your spirit, Cennydd, Mage of the Green Silences. Eu guardo a luz das estrelas a alma de cada folha Sem folhas nao tem vida, Sem folhas nao tem nada, Salve as folhas! Kenneth Allen Hyde | No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife Univ. of Delaware | between the shoulder blades will seriously Dept. of Linguistics | cramp his style -- Old Jhereg proverb kenny-+AT+-strauss.udel.edu | A mind is a terrible toy to waste! -- Me ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 18:45:03 -0400 (EDT) From: Rossinyol To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: re: Heinlein Message-ID: Hmmm. Well, having started this whole thing, I suppose that it is necessary for me to say something further on it. Basically, I think that Esmeralda's points highlight a lot of my own feelings. On Thu, 25 Apr 1996 dbackhau-+AT+-isou10.estec.esa.nl wrote: > * in Time enough for Love, in 2 instances he is fully involved in the > raising of a girl child (in the twins case he's their father), with whom > he then goes on to have a full sexual relationship with. Call me > a hidebound westener, but that bothers me - at what age is it "OK" to > start seeing them as a sexual beings? 13? 14? 15? 11? More to the point, incest is a touchy subject (I am not talking about sex with someone closely related to you genetically, here. I am talking about sex inside a caregiver-child relationship). I personally feel that this sort of incest is potentially destructive, and is always an abuse of the pre-existing relationship. > * there are no cases of nubile pubescent boys being lovingly introduced > to sex by caring older women - just "old" men and teenagers. Ick. Heinlein does seem to have a thing about barely pubescent girls. Actually, maybe a more accurate charge would be to say that he is lookist and ageist. No...he is still sexist, but he is also those things, too. He is also clearly homophobic. He puts a great front of saying "there is nothing wrong with homosexuals" but he always goes on to say that homosex is somehow inferior to heterosex and that it is unnatural--that sounds like homophobia to me. > * his views on family life and the raising of children are so rosy they > are also ikky. As someone else mentioned, they are also highly unrealistic. He strikes me as the sort of person who, if he had kids, would end up in serious denial when his kids were not as perfect as he expected, or would be an abusive parent, trying to force them to be what he thought kids should be. He clearly (see TSBTS; the part wher Maur takes in Brian's kids) thinks that the only thing that is involved in having perfect children is parents who are strong discipliners. > * he trivialises sex - again - maybe it's my english morals again, but > I don't like the way sex is reduced to the level of sharing a bottle of > wine - the same with everyone be they trusted partner or some casual > pickup, and something to pass an otherwise boring evening with. More to the point, his ideas about sex are unrealistic, laughably so, IMNSHO. His characters are always ready, anywhere, anytime. I don't know anyone like that, and I know a lot of people that would qualify as rampant sex-fiends. > * yes his women are independent characters, but not as ML's women are > strong - his don't ring true - he makes them "strong " by having them > behave like men, (or resort to quivering lips and tear drenched eyes) > whereas ML's women live by their own set of rules that includes being > female (can you imagine Tarma wheedling?). Maybe that's not clear, us > scientific types aren't used to this type of thinking. I think I > decided that while I'd like to meet ML's characters, could see them as > real people, I didn't care for Heinlein's ladies - they were too obviusly > characters in a book, and I have no interest in meeting them. If I did > I doubt I'd like them, or them me. This was my main objection, actually. The women in Heinlein are dishonest, sneaky, etc, and this is presented as a good thing. And I don't mean that they are dishonest in general, just in their dealings with men. They rarely stand up to men, they just sort of weedle or seduce their way around men. This is a very unhealthy, sexist pattern of behavior. It is exactly the sort of thing that feminists and Gender scholars are trying to change, world-wide. I have to agree with Esmeralda on this one. I can't think of a single female character in Heinlein that I like as a personage. In fact, I can't think of a male character that I like as a personage. Most of the women in Heinlein are presented as a sexual creature and (occasionally) a profession. But it always seems to be sex first. Very one dimensional. (One caveat: I have not read Friday, but I don't expect her to be too different.) The men are occasionally more fleshed out, but they are still awfully one-dimensional and rather unpleasant. I don't think that there is a single Heinlein character that I would respect as a person. Fortunately, I have never met anyone in the real world that was even remotely like any of his characters. Anyway, that is my opinion. May the seas be your solace and the forests a refuge for your spirit, Cennydd, Mage of the Green Silences. Eu guardo a luz das estrelas a alma de cada folha Sem folhas nao tem vida, Sem folhas nao tem nada, Salve as folhas! Kenneth Allen Hyde | No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife Univ. of Delaware | between the shoulder blades will seriously Dept. of Linguistics | cramp his style -- Old Jhereg proverb kenny-+AT+-strauss.udel.edu | A mind is a terrible toy to waste! -- Me ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 18:46:34 -0400 From: Nitebird To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: S&S IV Message-ID: <318000CA.5166-+AT+-ns.gamewood.net> Tammy Harris wrote: > > Heyla! > > David Tiffany and Heather Watson commented that they couldn't find > Sword and Sorceress IV. Have you checked to see if your bookstore > can order it? III is out of print, but I *thought* that IV was still > available. I could be wrong, though...... > > Tammy > > "It's time to ask yourself what you believe" I have found at my used bookstore Sword & Sorcery 1, 4, 5 ( I think) I'll pick them up for someone and send them snail mail, if you'll give me your snail mail address! Reply privately, and the first reply gets the book(s). the NiteBird -- And may you get - not what you deserve - But your hearts desire. Sayvil, BTS ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 18:54:32 -0400 (EDT) From: Rossinyol To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Star Wars Message-ID: On Thu, 25 Apr 1996, Heather Watson wrote: > Cennydd, my friend, you have got to lighten up about this! For God's > sake, it's a metaphor. If we say "cowboys and Indians," then by golly > you expect the Stormtroopers to count coup and the ships to form a > circle when attacked. I don't think anyone ever intended it to be quite > that literal. > It's a figure of speech, meant to conjure up images of high > adventure, good v. evil, rogues, heroes, and general swashbuckling, a la > the Western genre. It's not textual and film analysis; it exists to > give you an idea of what kind of movie this is, and I think it does a > fair job. Actually, if you don't want to use the term as a technical term in an analysis of genre, my objections to it become stronger, not weaker. I don't think that SW is anything like C&I. Then again, C&I doesn't conjure up any of the images you mention above, for me. Of course, I don't watch a lot of C&I stuff, but that is precisely because it doesn't have any of the high adventure and stuff. (OK, it is also because I have trouble stomaching the racism implicit in the C&I setup.) If someone had told me before I went to see SW that it was supposed to be C&I in space, I prob would not have gone. If I had, I would have been very surprised, because it just isn't anything like a C&I movie. Now, on the other hand, if someone told me (assuming that I had never seen SW at this point) that SW was like a sci-fi version of Misty or that it was Misty in space, I would prob go, and not be terribly surprised. It is particulary like her later stuff (MageWinds and _The Black Griffon_). May the seas be your solace and the forests a refuge for your spirit, Cennydd, Mage of the Green Silences. Eu guardo a luz das estrelas a alma de cada folha Sem folhas nao tem vida, Sem folhas nao tem nada, Salve as folhas! Kenneth Allen Hyde | No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife Univ. of Delaware | between the shoulder blades will seriously Dept. of Linguistics | cramp his style -- Old Jhereg proverb kenny-+AT+-strauss.udel.edu | A mind is a terrible toy to waste! -- Me ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 19:16:58 -0400 (EDT) From: Rossinyol To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Vanyel's Hair Message-ID: On Thu, 25 Apr 1996, Heather Watson wrote: > Of course, I'm only doing this so that Cennydd will ask me to marry > him. Well, I wouldn't want to disappoint you, so here goes. Heather, will you marry me? We'll live in a little bungalow for 4 and do wonderful textual analysis together. > I've always wanted a big wedding and a cool dress (always mindful > of Ms. Behavior's sage advice only to wear a dress to your wedding if > you look really fierce in one -- and I do), and I figure who would be > more understanding when I go out afterwards and sleep with the > bridesmaids? Only if you can manage to find some cute ushers for me. BTW, I am glad that you are willing to wear the dress, since I look just awful in one. > Plus, I really want to live off of that academic's salary > for the rest of my life. Yeah, I figure a linguistics professor is > really the route to go if you want total financial security and > independance in your golden years. Well, actually, I assume that you are being facetious. But I forgive you. You don't know any better. Sure, the chances of getting a 6-figure salary for a professorship is kinda slim, but it does happen. You just have to be good enough. Also, most profs that I know get large amounts of their income from sources other than their salary. I don't know very many poor Linguistics profs. And there is no financial security in the world like tenure! Besides, the bennies can't be beat. May the seas be your solace and the forests a refuge for your spirit, Cennydd, Mage of the Green Silences. Eu guardo a luz das estrelas a alma de cada folha Sem folhas nao tem vida, Sem folhas nao tem nada, Salve as folhas! Kenneth Allen Hyde | No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife Univ. of Delaware | between the shoulder blades will seriously Dept. of Linguistics | cramp his style -- Old Jhereg proverb kenny-+AT+-strauss.udel.edu | A mind is a terrible toy to waste! -- Me ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 16:25:21 -0800 (PST) From: cscd3150121-+AT+-ewu.edu To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: Re: Stuff Message-ID: On Fri, 26 Apr 1996, Vrondi wrote: > what on earth (or off it) is grok??? Read "Stranger in a Strange Land" by Heinlen and then it might be that you will grok. Or maybe not. I still love the phrase "I grok Spock!" Wish I still had my button with that on it! OBMisty: What happened to the folks north of Valdemar after Lareth(sp) died? Did they go back to lose tribes or are they still organized? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 20:49:06 -0400 From: Raingcats-+AT+-aol.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: GGK? Message-ID: <960425204905_280797866-+AT+-emout12.mail.aol.com> In reply to the suggested reading of GGK books - Whose _Tigana_ by? And who the heck is GGK? Help!!!!!!!!!!! Lady Moonsong (Adept-class tayledras mage), Lady Windshadow (Lady Moonsong's black panther mindmate), Lady Kreana (Lady Moonsong's golden eagle bondbird) Ones In Black and Ladies In Green "Just what is a cat? A cat is a furry animal, complete with dog nibblers and furniture shredders. *HACK* The hairballs in the throat are also standard equipment." - Garfield the Cat ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 20:49:11 -0400 From: Raingcats-+AT+-aol.com To: mercedes-lackey-+AT+-vanyel.herald.co.uk Subject: PEOPLE GET IT RIGHT!!!!!!!!!! Message-ID: <960425204909_280797924-+AT+-emout08.mail.aol.com> I'm really sorry but there is no way to say it nice and get it through some of the thicker skulls in here so here goes: When you are discussing the tayledras that helped Van and Savil in the LHM series please remember that it is MoonDANCE not MoonSONG. While I'm on this subject it's StarWIND not StarBLADE! (There were more than one post like this so I thought that I should include it) It's rather disconcerting to be reading a post and then find your name in it and it says something along the lines of you talking to Savil. Then you have to take a major double take because you ask yourself when this conversation took place and if it was before your morning Diet Coke. Yes, DIET the real stuff is SYRUP. Ugh! That goes the same for Pepsi too. Yes, I'm done with my awful nasty post and I am sorry but it's a dirty job and someone's got to do it and it happened to be me this time. Oh, and before I get a hundred thousand posts saying that your books are at home and you don't/can't remember their names I just gave you a handy reference post didn't I? Beside if you guys have reread the boks as many times as you said you did you should be able to remember them! If you can't look back at this post! Lady Moonsong (Adept-class tayledras mage), Lady Windshadow (Lady Moonsong's black panther mindmate), Lady Kreana (Lady Moonsong's golden eagle bondbird) Ones In Black and Ladies In Green Jon - "Let's go for a walk, Garfield." Garfield - "I'm not going for a walk." Jon - "You're going for a walk." Garfield - "I'm not going for a walk." Jon - "YOU'RE GOING FOR A WALK IF I HAVE TO CARRY YOU! Garfield - "I can't argue with that logic." ------------------------------ End of MERCEDES-LACKEY Digest 510 *********************************